Page 47 of 50 FirstFirst ... 223738394041424344454647484950 LastLast
Results 1,381 to 1,410 of 1483
  1. - Top - End - #1381
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    I agree; I think actually everyone will - wizards and clerics will need it for their magic attacks, and you can't hose rogues that badly on attack rolls. But near as I can tell, it's not happening in the first 3 levels, unless they left that part out of the playtest advancement. Even a +1 every 4 levels is really slow.

    -O
    They might have left it out because it's connected to feat option that weren't taken.
    Fudge Assistant in the Playground.

  2. - Top - End - #1382
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    I agree; I think actually everyone will - wizards and clerics will need it for their magic attacks, and you can't hose rogues that badly on attack rolls. But near as I can tell, it's not happening in the first 3 levels, unless they left that part out of the playtest advancement. Even a +1 every 4 levels is really slow.

    -O
    I think you've missed the point of that article - they seem to be saying that yes, there will be ways to get additional static modifiers to your attacks and defences. But no, they won't come simply as a result of levelling up - not even just +1 every 4 levels. *IF* you choose to take feats or what-have-you to increase your accuracy, then your accuracy will increase. If you don't, it won't.

    Obviously based on 4e, the knee-jerk reaction to that news might be "but if my accuracy doesn't increase then I'll never hit monsters!" and, as a result, "Accuracy-increasing feats will be mandatory again just like 4e!"

    If they get the bounded-accuracy thing right, though, that shouldn't be true. It will still be BENEFICIAL to be more accurate, because then you can hit those big plate-wearing guys more often. But in order to be more accurate you'll be giving up the choice to increase your damage or utility or something else instead. Once you crunch the math, hopefully there's a meaningful decision there instead of everything coming down to "I just want to hit more." Damage should be just as important, because there's no point hitting every round if you're only dealing 5 damage out of 500 hp on the higher-level enemies.

    Basically (and I know I'm rambling a bit here but I'm tired and it's getting hard to be coherent), increasing accuracy beyond a certain point in this system will have diminishing returns as you start to have hit rates approaching 100% against more and more monsters.

  3. - Top - End - #1383
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    It doesn't say that characters won't be getting bonuses. It says that, effectively, monster defenses won't be scaling with them. So a tough plate warrior enemy at 1st level might have 18 AC (insert random number here). A tough plate warrior at level 20 will also have around 18 AC, rather than having 30 AC.

    I see this as generally a positive thing, as it means that there's effectively one thing that represents "harder to kill" instead of two separate things, and the quadratic effect that they have. It seems like this should also make it more feasible to have a wider spread of level ranges play together, which I think is *awesome*.

  4. - Top - End - #1384
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    I am kind of liking the fact that certain things won't scale by level. In 3rd edition if you wanted to play a fighter type, you might as well take your first 3 levels in fighter, ranger and paladin for +6 to fort and +2 to reflex. Grab a second level of paladin and you add your charisma bonus to all saves. Crazy multiclassing = great bonuses was a significant balance issue.

    Honestly, the game has always kind of been set up (or was supposed to be set up) to scale with numbers. Your BAB increases, but so does your opponents AC. It's just up to the DM to balance out the correct level of opposition.

  5. - Top - End - #1385
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    It doesn't say that characters won't be getting bonuses. It says that, effectively, monster defenses won't be scaling with them. So a tough plate warrior enemy at 1st level might have 18 AC (insert random number here). A tough plate warrior at level 20 will also have around 18 AC, rather than having 30 AC.
    I'd like to point out this is how 3e worked. Fighters then had to spend a lot of resources on expensive magic items to bring his AC up to match high level monster offenses.


    If it comes down to having to spend resources used to maintain damage or utility on things like skill bonuses, attack bonuses, and defenses, then what's going to happen is skills and defense will inevitable suffer. The choice will be between offenses (damage or to-hit, it's easy to math out what's going to be better of the two), and utility (unless the utility offered sucks, in which case it gets chucked out with Defense and Skills).
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  6. - Top - End - #1386
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I'd like to point out this is how 3e worked. Fighters then had to spend a lot of resources on expensive magic items to bring his AC up to match high level monster offenses.


    If it comes down to having to spend resources used to maintain damage or utility on things like skill bonuses, attack bonuses, and defenses, then what's going to happen is skills and defense will inevitable suffer. The choice will be between offenses (damage or to-hit, it's easy to math out what's going to be better of the two), and utility (unless the utility offered sucks, in which case it gets chucked out with Defense and Skills).
    Er, I meant the example to be enemy defenses, not your defenses. Sorry if that was insufficiently clear.

    Presumably, monster attacks would also not scale as much, either.

    The ability to crunch and mathematically determine which is superior will still be there, and I think it's pretty inherent to the combat model used in D&D and most RPGs.

  7. - Top - End - #1387
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Er, I meant the example to be enemy defenses, not your defenses. Sorry if that was insufficiently clear.

    Presumably, monster attacks would also not scale as much, either.

    The ability to crunch and mathematically determine which is superior will still be there, and I think it's pretty inherent to the combat model used in D&D and most RPGs.
    If monster attack bonus and defenses don't scale at all, and the players' do, even optionally, that means at high level even on level challenges are going to be easier than low level challenges were at low level, which doesn't seem right, either.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  8. - Top - End - #1388
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    If monster attack bonus and defenses don't scale at all, and the players' do, even optionally, that means at high level even on level challenges are going to be easier than low level challenges were at low level, which doesn't seem right, either.
    No, because the added difficulty comes from higher damage output and higher hp, rather than higher defences and higher accuracy.

    Instead of being harder to hit, they'll take more hits to take down. Instead of hitting you more often, they'll deal a more significant portion of your HP with each successful attack.

  9. - Top - End - #1389
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    No, because the added difficulty comes from higher damage output and higher hp, rather than higher defences and higher accuracy.

    Instead of being harder to hit, they'll take more hits to take down. Instead of hitting you more often, they'll deal a more significant portion of your HP with each successful attack.
    No what he's saying is players accuracy will scale, but monster defenses won't. Which means at low levels you hit on a 10, at high levels you hit on a 5. When it's accuracy improving relative to lower level enemies, it's fine. Accuracy improving relative to all enemies, including higher level ones, doesn't seem right.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  10. - Top - End - #1390
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    No what he's saying is players accuracy will scale, but monster defenses won't. Which means at low levels you hit on a 10, at high levels you hit on a 5. When it's accuracy improving relative to lower level enemies, it's fine. Accuracy improving relative to all enemies, including higher level ones, doesn't seem right.
    Not really. That would be true if accuracy improved as it does in the current game, but my understanding is that it doesn't.

    IOW, in most editions, accuracy and defenses scale in tandem. A "tough to hit" opponent might need a 15 to hit at first level, as you have +5 to hit, and they have a 20AC. At tenth level, that's achieved by the players having +15 to hit, and the enemy having a 30AC.

    On top of this "baseline increase", there's things that can give you bonuses above the baseline.

    So what they're talking about is getting rid of the baseline increases completely. You might still get bonuses, but they'll be smaller, and will represent exceptional accuracy above "baseline". Level improvement happens through additional HP and damage, not through accuracy increases. So at level 10 you're only marginally more likely to hit that kobold than you were at level 1 - but if you do, you'll obliterate him. Similarly, that kobold will only be marginally less likely to hit you - but if he does, the damage that he does to you will be nothing but a scratch compared to your hit points.

  11. - Top - End - #1391
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    So what they're talking about is getting rid of the baseline increases completely. You might still get bonuses, but they'll be smaller, and will represent exceptional accuracy above "baseline".
    Meh I'm just not buying it. WotC has never managed to balance this sort of thing, and trying to make everything the same at level 20 as level 1 except where it's not doesn't seem like something I'm inclined to trust them to pull off correctly. It requires all +hit options to have their alternatives be extremely good. If a character has an average of 50 damage per hit, and normally hits on a 10, +2 to hit is worth as much as 10 points of damage. The higher the base damage, the more the +2 to hit is worth.

    What I'm trying to say is that the two synergize, so any bonuses to one makes the other worth more. But this likely won't be taken into account. We'll get lame **** like Weapon Focus +2 to damage, and the occasional feat or item that gives +1-2 to hit. Given the +hit is that much more efficient than the +damage, the +hit is the obvious option to take. Thus we end up with all PCs having hit scaling anyway, just having to waste resources on it.

    Or if they don't include +hit at all, then there goes the scaling mentioned, and a level 20 Fighter will still miss a guy in full plate 50% of the time.






    Even ignoring all of that, and assuming the HP/Damage scaling sorts everything out for combat, Skills are even more limited by this system. Skill Points aren't a part of the core game, you get +3 to a couple of skills from backgrounds, and one of the early blogs indicates that might scale up a bit at higher levels. But anything outside of those 2-4 skills a character is going to be no better at by level 20 than they are at level 1. The example used in the article was how a wooden door is still going to be a valid obstacle at level 20. I mean really, how is this seen as a good thing? Why should a 20th level Fighter who can stand face to face with a tarrasque and a balor not be able to effortlessly kick down a door that people can deal with in real life? Why should a 20th level rogue still fail any percentage of the time against a lock he was picking at level 1?

    The lack of progression in non-combat areas for mundanes bothers me far more than the combat stuff. It only gets worse if casters start getting spells that let them ignore the skill system, and we all know they will.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  12. - Top - End - #1392
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Knaight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Meh I'm just not buying it. WotC has never managed to balance this sort of thing, and trying to make everything the same at level 20 as level 1 except where it's not doesn't seem like something I'm inclined to trust them to pull off correctly. It requires all +hit options to have their alternatives be extremely good. If a character has an average of 50 damage per hit, and normally hits on a 10, +2 to hit is worth as much as 10 points of damage. The higher the base damage, the more the +2 to hit is worth.
    I don't think they're likely to do a good job, but there are obvious balancing mechanisms*. Moreover, them just trying it effectively insures that somebody will make home brew for 5e that actually does it well. However, this should insure that groups are more viable, provided they don't screw it up with spells.

    *Pools of defense points that can be spent to raise AC against specific incoming attacks, favored enemy type bonuses, pools of attack points created through specific actions, so on and so forth.
    Fudge Assistant in the Playground.

  13. - Top - End - #1393
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Meh I'm just not buying it. WotC has never managed to balance this sort of thing, and trying to make everything the same at level 20 as level 1 except where it's not doesn't seem like something I'm inclined to trust them to pull off correctly. It requires all +hit options to have their alternatives be extremely good. If a character has an average of 50 damage per hit, and normally hits on a 10, +2 to hit is worth as much as 10 points of damage. The higher the base damage, the more the +2 to hit is worth.
    So I'm trying to figure out your issue here - is your concern the base concept, or a lack of faith in WotC in general?

    Personally, I think I like the *idea*. Whether they're successful in implementing it is a separate question.

  14. - Top - End - #1394
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    So I'm trying to figure out your issue here - is your concern the base concept, or a lack of faith in WotC in general?

    Personally, I think I like the *idea*. Whether they're successful in implementing it is a separate question.
    It's both. I don't like the base idea. However, despite not liking the base idea, I can see how it could possibly work in some game (in fact, a lot of video games work off the same principle. Increasing HP and damage, with miss chances that remain low and static throughout the game), but don't believe WotC will handle it well enough to work appropriately.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  15. - Top - End - #1395
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    It's both. I don't like the base idea.
    That's fair. I do like the base idea, as I like relative power curves to be a bit flatter. I suspect we're hitting core preferences here, though, and it's unlikely we'll be able to persuade each other?

  16. - Top - End - #1396
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Seerow's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    That's fair. I do like the base idea, as I like relative power curves to be a bit flatter. I suspect we're hitting core preferences here, though, and it's unlikely we'll be able to persuade each other?
    Yes, but that doesn't change the argument that it's unlikely that WotC will manage things successfully, or the argument that in either case it doesn't work for skills, because skills as they exist in D&D can only scale by increasing on the D20 roll
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  17. - Top - End - #1397
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Not really. That would be true if accuracy improved as it does in the current game, but my understanding is that it doesn't.

    IOW, in most editions, accuracy and defenses scale in tandem. A "tough to hit" opponent might need a 15 to hit at first level, as you have +5 to hit, and they have a 20AC. At tenth level, that's achieved by the players having +15 to hit, and the enemy having a 30AC.

    On top of this "baseline increase", there's things that can give you bonuses above the baseline.

    So what they're talking about is getting rid of the baseline increases completely. You might still get bonuses, but they'll be smaller, and will represent exceptional accuracy above "baseline". Level improvement happens through additional HP and damage, not through accuracy increases. So at level 10 you're only marginally more likely to hit that kobold than you were at level 1 - but if you do, you'll obliterate him. Similarly, that kobold will only be marginally less likely to hit you - but if he does, the damage that he does to you will be nothing but a scratch compared to your hit points.
    So then is this effectively a replacement for the minion system, with lower level enemies remaining threats in high numbers or as backup to better foes?

  18. - Top - End - #1398
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jothki View Post
    So then is this effectively a replacement for the minion system, with lower level enemies remaining threats in high numbers or as backup to better foes?
    Partially - though lower (but not extremely lower) enemies could still be a challenge in moderate groups, where minions usually needed to swarm.

    I am sad about the loss of minions - I thought they were one of the better 4e ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Yes, but that doesn't change the argument that it's unlikely that WotC will manage things successfully, or the argument that in either case it doesn't work for skills, because skills as they exist in D&D can only scale by increasing on the D20 roll
    I'm not sure this would apply to skills - did the article mention that?

    And general distrust of WotC's ability to design games isn't really a topic we can have any kind of interesting discussion about, as it can only degenerate to "yes they can" and "no they can't". If we don't believe they can design a workable game at all, then what type of bad game they write is pretty much irrelevant.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2012-06-04 at 08:01 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1399
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    I just thought of this: Another way to think of this high-level=high-damage change is that full Power Attack is now the assumed default. Damage is what goes up with level, not accuracy, and you now have the build-choice to increase your accuracy at the cost of extra damage (or action-economy, or whatever else) normally gained through levels.

  20. - Top - End - #1400
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Draz74's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    One of the side effects of this philosophy are some really weird DCs for common tasks. Like, breaking out of manacles is DC 19 strength or DC 21 dexterity. It seems to me that everyone - even the puny wizard - can break them given a little time, no? Not that this is a game-breaker, it's just ... weird.
    Unless they implement the Burning Wheel philosophy of "no retries; whatever you roll the first time, that's the result you're stuck with."
    You can call me Draz.
    Trophies:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Also of note:

    Work on my homebrew system, CRE8, is still marching slowly onwards. I think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel -- an Alpha release -- in the distance now. Read my Design Goals here.

  21. - Top - End - #1401
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Unless they implement the Burning Wheel philosophy of "no retries; whatever you roll the first time, that's the result you're stuck with."
    I swear, about 50% of what makes BW awesome is the little stuff like that that's applicable to just about any system.

  22. - Top - End - #1402
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Siegel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I swear, about 50% of what makes BW awesome is the little stuff like that that's applicable to just about any system.
    That is so true and will go into my signatur.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I swear, about 50% of what makes BW awesome is the little stuff like that that's applicable to just about any system.

  23. - Top - End - #1403
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Meh I'm just not buying it. WotC has never managed to balance this sort of thing,
    (snip)
    This has been addressed by others, but again, it IS balance-able and we'll just have to see whether they can pull it off.

    The thing is, it's essentially the same in 4e. If you take every monster in the game of 10th level, and take 5 away from its defences and its attack bonuses. Then you remove the 1/2-level scaling on defences and attack bonuses from PCs. There - you've now got the 5e system. Then the only thing left is to re-work feats so that they don't destroy the intent of the system (many of which were only added in the first place to "fix" the math broken by the constant scaling).

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Or if they don't include +hit at all, then there goes the scaling mentioned, and a level 20 Fighter will still miss a guy in full plate 50% of the time.
    I don't think that's such an awful thing, necessarily, as long as when he does hit he does lots more damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Even ignoring all of that, and assuming the HP/Damage scaling sorts everything out for combat, Skills are even more limited by this system. Skill Points aren't a part of the core game, you get +3 to a couple of skills from backgrounds, and one of the early blogs indicates that might scale up a bit at higher levels. But anything outside of those 2-4 skills a character is going to be no better at by level 20 than they are at level 1.
    That's not quite what they've said. You get a static bonus to 2-4 skills from themes, yes, but the core of the system is ability checks. These still scale with level through attribute increases, which makes sense - a character that gets stronger but no more dexterous will be able to knock down bigger doors but not pick more difficult locks.

    I also would be very surprised if there weren't skill-related feats, but whether they're a viable choice remains to be seen. There could also be a skill module, if this whole modular thing gets off the ground. But the core system should work fine by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    The example used in the article was how a wooden door is still going to be a valid obstacle at level 20. I mean really, how is this seen as a good thing? Why should a 20th level Fighter who can stand face to face with a tarrasque and a balor not be able to effortlessly kick down a door that people can deal with in real life? Why should a 20th level rogue still fail any percentage of the time against a lock he was picking at level 1?
    An iron-bound wooden door, the example in the article, will still be a valid obstacle against a *wizard* or similarly not strong class at level 20. Why would a wizard who has spent no time at all strengthening his muscles be able to knock down a door with his bare hands just because his magical ability got stronger? A 20th level Fighter WILL find that door easier to knock down, and he WILL be able to knock down the adamantium door that the Wizard never has a chance of even touching. Same with the rogue.

    It's all about being better at what you're good at, while not completely invalidating everyone else - which I believe has been a common complaint of the skill system since 3e? If you're not trained in a skill, then at level 20 you might as well not even be able to roll it. This is meant to address that, I guess.

  24. - Top - End - #1404
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Siegel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Meh I'm just not buying it. WotC has never managed to balance this sort of thing, and trying to make everything the same at level 20 as level 1 except where it's not doesn't seem like something I'm inclined to trust them to pull off correctly. It requires all +hit options to have their alternatives be extremely good. If a character has an average of 50 damage per hit, and normally hits on a 10, +2 to hit is worth as much as 10 points of damage. The higher the base damage, the more the +2 to hit is worth.

    What I'm trying to say is that the two synergize, so any bonuses to one makes the other worth more. But this likely won't be taken into account. We'll get lame **** like Weapon Focus +2 to damage, and the occasional feat or item that gives +1-2 to hit. Given the +hit is that much more efficient than the +damage, the +hit is the obvious option to take. Thus we end up with all PCs having hit scaling anyway, just having to waste resources on it.

    Or if they don't include +hit at all, then there goes the scaling mentioned, and a level 20 Fighter will still miss a guy in full plate 50% of the time.






    Even ignoring all of that, and assuming the HP/Damage scaling sorts everything out for combat, Skills are even more limited by this system. Skill Points aren't a part of the core game, you get +3 to a couple of skills from backgrounds, and one of the early blogs indicates that might scale up a bit at higher levels. But anything outside of those 2-4 skills a character is going to be no better at by level 20 than they are at level 1. The example used in the article was how a wooden door is still going to be a valid obstacle at level 20. I mean really, how is this seen as a good thing? Why should a 20th level Fighter who can stand face to face with a tarrasque and a balor not be able to effortlessly kick down a door that people can deal with in real life? Why should a 20th level rogue still fail any percentage of the time against a lock he was picking at level 1?

    The lack of progression in non-combat areas for mundanes bothers me far more than the combat stuff. It only gets worse if casters start getting spells that let them ignore the skill system, and we all know they will.
    Why don't you just say yes in the case of the door. Don't let the Fighter roll when he has a unreasonable chance to fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I swear, about 50% of what makes BW awesome is the little stuff like that that's applicable to just about any system.

  25. - Top - End - #1405
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Unless they implement the Burning Wheel philosophy of "no retries; whatever you roll the first time, that's the result you're stuck with."
    That's a very good rule. Giving infinite retries on most tasks has always been a weak point of D&D skill resolution.
    Crystal Shard Studios - classy freeware games!

    Utility Belt wizard (Batman 4E-style) * Chocolate!

  26. - Top - End - #1406
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Zagreb

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    This has been addressed by others, but again, it IS balance-able and we'll just have to see whether they can pull it off.

    The thing is, it's essentially the same in 4e. If you take every monster in the game of 10th level, and take 5 away from its defences and its attack bonuses. Then you remove the 1/2-level scaling on defences and attack bonuses from PCs. There - you've now got the 5e system. Then the only thing left is to re-work feats so that they don't destroy the intent of the system (many of which were only added in the first place to "fix" the math broken by the constant scaling).



    I don't think that's such an awful thing, necessarily, as long as when he does hit he does lots more damage.

    And that is the core reason why I think 4E is a badly designed system. It is at its base a ability check system. Its the reason you get the padded sumo effect, monster hp just goes up much faster then player damage does, while your chances to hit remain the same.

    It is also hellishly boring; needing a 10+ to hit every monster you come across is so dull. You don't even need dice anymore, a coin will do. At least in 4E you had the tactical minigame, where positioning and buffs from allies had some meaning on the outcome of combat. So far as we can see, the tactical minigame has been greatly diminished in 5E.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    An iron-bound wooden door, the example in the article, will still be a valid obstacle against a *wizard* or similarly not strong class at level 20. Why would a wizard who has spent no time at all strengthening his muscles be able to knock down a door with his bare hands just because his magical ability got stronger? A 20th level Fighter WILL find that door easier to knock down, and he WILL be able to knock down the adamantium door that the Wizard never has a chance of even touching. Same with the rogue.

    It's all about being better at what you're good at, while not completely invalidating everyone else - which I believe has been a common complaint of the skill system since 3e? If you're not trained in a skill, then at level 20 you might as well not even be able to roll it. This is meant to address that, I guess.
    That does fix the automatic scaling problem, but it still does nothing about the single roll ability check system. It is a bad resolution mechanic, and now they are basing their whole system on it.

    The simple fact is that bonuses on ability checks are small compared to the values the d20 can take, and thus are almost meaningless. If your bonus caps out at +5, then in reality breaking down a door is just as hard at level 20 as it is at level 1 when you had a +3 bonus. It has nothing to do with your character and all to do with how you roll. If you add something like a extended series of rolls type of test, then these small bonuses become more meaningful again, but it does not seem they are going in that direction.

    I see no problem in a system designed in such a way that if a character did not allocate any (or a small amount) of resources to a ability that he shouldn't even roll at level 20. Its logical, in the same way I don't have to bother to show up to a tennis match against Roger Federer to know that he will win 100% of the time.
    Last edited by Tehnar; 2012-06-05 at 06:07 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #1407
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    The simple fact is that bonuses on ability checks are small compared to the values the d20 can take, and thus are almost meaningless. If your bonus caps out at +5, then in reality breaking down a door is just as hard at level 20 as it is at level 1 when you had a +3 bonus.
    I think you're understating the bonuses you would be able to earn. You can get +4 or +5 simply from ability scores, another +3 from a theme. That's +8 already. Versus, say, someone with -1 in the ability score and none from the theme. A difference of 9 between "pretty good" and "bad" is nothing to sneeze at, and I'm sure you'll be able to increase the +8 with other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    I see no problem in a system designed in such a way that if a character did not allocate any (or a small amount) of resources to a ability that he shouldn't even roll at level 20. Its logical, in the same way I don't have to bother to show up to a tennis match against Roger Federer to know that he will win 100% of the time.
    That's not quite what it's about. The problem with scenarios where people are adding 20 to their rolls is that the DM keeps having to come up with increasingly ridiculous scenarios to keep the trained PC challenged, which at the same time completely invalidates the untrained PCs.

    To use your tennis example, this would be like having a ball machine that was set up to be pretty easy for Roger Federer, but would be quite challenging for anyone else. Anyone else could still give it a go and have a chance of success, whereas Federer would be almost guaranteed to succeed.

    If you were playing AGAINST Federer, of course you'd have an incredibly hard time beating him - but that's not a skill check anymore, that's a contest. And of course in a contest the person with the much higher modifier should have every chance of winning.

  28. - Top - End - #1408
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    I think you're understating the bonuses you would be able to earn. You can get +4 or +5 simply from ability scores, another +3 from a theme. That's +8 already. Versus, say, someone with -1 in the ability score and none from the theme. A difference of 9 between "pretty good" and "bad" is nothing to sneeze at, and I'm sure you'll be able to increase the +8 with other options.
    The 9 you mention isn't "pretty good", it's the best you can get. Compare this to 4E, where you can easily manage +16, or 3E, where you can get +25 without too much trouble. Yeah, that +9 looks very impressive now.
    Crystal Shard Studios - classy freeware games!

    Utility Belt wizard (Batman 4E-style) * Chocolate!

  29. - Top - End - #1409
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The 9 you mention isn't "pretty good", it's the best you can get. Compare this to 4E, where you can easily manage +16, or 3E, where you can get +25 without too much trouble. Yeah, that +9 looks very impressive now.
    But given a world where the hardest tasks imaginable have DCs of 30 instead of 50, it makes total sense. And I'd be very surprised if 9 is the best you can get in the final rules. Magic items and feats will surely still be available to boost skills.

  30. - Top - End - #1410
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition - Now your playing with Playtests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    But given a world where the hardest tasks imaginable have DCs of 30 instead of 50, it makes total sense. And I'd be very surprised if 9 is the best you can get in the final rules. Magic items and feats will surely still be available to boost skills.
    The point is that if the spread on skills is 9 points, and the spread on the die roll is 20 points, then whether you succeed or not depends mostly on luck, not skill.
    Crystal Shard Studios - classy freeware games!

    Utility Belt wizard (Batman 4E-style) * Chocolate!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •