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    Default Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    WEAPONMASTER

    A weaponmaster, as the name implies, is very good with a weapon, and possibly more than one. Their combat training tends to be more specific than that of the fighter, whether due to its informality (brawler, knife-fighter), formality (boxer, wrestler, duelist), or the needs of a military unit (archer, slinger, pikeman).

    Balance note: This class is aimed at tier 5, about as powerful as a fighter.

    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d8.

    Class Skills
    The weaponmaster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (none), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.


    Weaponmaster
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special | Focus Damage |AC Bonus

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    | Bonus feat, focus strike, weapon finesse, like the palm of my hand +2| 1d6| +0

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    | Bonus feat| 1d6| +0

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    | Art of weaponry| 1d6| +0

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    | Bonus feat| 1d8| +0

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    | --| 1d8| +1

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    | Bonus feat| 1d8| +1

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    | Like the palm of my hand +3| 1d8| +1

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    | Bonus feat| 1d10| +1

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    | Strike just so| 1d10| +1

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    | Bonus feat| 1d10| +2

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    | Soft strike| 1d10| +2

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    | Bonus feat| 2d6| +2

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    | Like the palm of my hand +4| 2d6| +2

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    | Bonus feat| 2d6| +2

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    | --| 2d6| +3

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    | Bonus feat| 2d8| +3

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    | Feel the weapon| 2d8| +3

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    | Bonus feat| 2d8| +3

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    | Like the palm of my hand +5| 2d8| +3

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    | Bonus feat| 2d10| +4[/table]
    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the weaponmaster.
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Weaponmasters are proficient with all simple weapons and light armor. When wearing heavier than light armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a weaponmaster loses his AC bonus.
    AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the weaponmaster adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. In addition, a weaponmaster gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five weaponmaster levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the weaponmaster is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears medium or heavy armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

    Focus Strike: A weaponmaster deals more damage with certain attacks, as shown on Table: The Weaponmaster. When making such an attack, the weaponmaster may inflict the stated focus damage in place of the normal effects of the attack. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit as normal for the attack. The attacks which can be used to inflict focus damage are:
    Any attack with which the weaponmaster has weapon focus.
    Any natural attack with which the weaponmaster is proficient.
    Unarmed strikes, provided the weaponmaster has improved unarmed strike.
    Grapples, provided the weaponmaster has improved grapple.
    When the weaponmaster attacks with such a weapon, he inflicts the normal weapon damage or the damage listed on the table, whichever is greater. The damage on Table: The Weaponmaster is for Medium weaponmasters. A Small weaponmaster deals less damage than the amount given there with his focus attacks, while a Large weaponmaster deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Weaponmaster Focus Damage. This ability only applies if the target is within 30 feet of the weaponmaster.
    Small or Large Weaponmaster Focus Damage

    {table=head] Level |Damage (Small Weaponmaster) |Damage (Large Weaponmaster)
    1st–3rd |1d4 |1d8
    4th–7th |1d6 |2d6
    8th–11th |1d8 |2d8
    12th–15th |1d10 |3d6
    16th–19th |2d6 |3d8
    20th |2d8 |4d8
    [/table]
    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a weaponmaster gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The weaponmaster gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two weaponmaster levels thereafter .These bonus feats must be drawn from: feats noted as fighter bonus feats, martial weapon proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency. A weaponmaster must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A weaponmaster is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

    Weaponcraft: At 1st level, a weaponmaster gains Weapon Finesse and one of Weapon Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike, or Improved Grapple as bonus feats.
    Like the Palm of My Hand: The weaponmaster chooses one specific type of weapon (for example, light crossbow) he has an intuitive understanding of. He gains a +2 competence bonus to the following checks:
    Appraise check to determine the value of that type of weapon
    Craft checks to build or repair that type of weapon
    Disable Device checks to disable or sabotage that type of weapon
    Intimidate checks when threatening to use that type of weapon
    Knowledge checks to know information about that type of weapon
    Search checks to find that type of weapon
    Sleight of Hand checks to lift, palm, hide or similarly manipulate that type of weapon
    Spot checks to see that type of weapon
    This bonus improves to +3 at 7th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 19th level.
    Art of Weaponry: Starting at 3rd level, a weaponmaster is, for purposes of feat prerequisites only, treated as a fighter of two levels lower.
    Strike Just So: When using an attack with which he can use focus strike, a 9th level weaponmaster chooses whether to inflict lethal or nonlethal damage, provided the attack inflicted lethal or nonlethal damage in the first place.
    Soft Strike: When using an attack with which he can use focus strike, an 11th level weaponmaster may inflict less damage than the attack would normally inflict, to a minimum of 0 points of damage.
    Feel the Weapon: When a 17th level weaponmaster rolls a natural 20 on a skill check which receives the bonus from like the palm of my hand, he receives an additional +10 bonus on the check.
    Change Log

    5/8/2012: Fixed copy/paste error in ‘bonus feats’ (Thank you, JoshuaZ.)
    5/8/2012: Fixed ‘focus damage’ typo (Thank you, JoshuaZ.)
    5/8/2012: Added a few lines explaining the intent (Thank you, bobthe6th.)
    5/8/2012: Added ‘like the palm of my hand’ (Thank you, bobthe6th.)
    6/3/2012: Reduced BAB and number of feats, increased hit dice, dropped use magic device, added light armor and flavor abilities. (Thank you, Tarkisflux)
    Last edited by ideasmith; 2012-06-03 at 04:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    this a fighter fix? It is kinda nice, but... it needs stuff, not bonus feats. 27+weapon finess(+1 if human) is to many for anyone. I barly know what to do with the 18 a normal straight fighter gets.
    also, easy feat retraining would make the class saner.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    this a fighter fix?
    No, it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    It is kinda nice, but... it needs stuff, not bonus feats. 27+weapon finess(+1 if human) is to many for anyone. I barly know what to do with the 18 a normal straight fighter gets.
    also, easy feat retraining would make the class saner.
    This advice seems aimed at making weaponmasters more powerful than a fighters. I am aiming at making weaponmasters as powerful as fighters.
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    Post Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    This advice seems aimed at making weaponmasters more powerful than a fighters. I am aiming at making weaponmasters as powerful as fighters.
    That is a terrible idea. Fighters are Tier 5, just above commoners. Essentially, they're severely underpowered.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Nice, but I'd suggest a few unique abilities / maneuvers.

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    Post Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilpich View Post
    That is a terrible idea. Fighters are Tier 5, just above commoners. Essentially, they're severely underpowered.
    Whether fighters are underpowered in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren't noticing this problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malachei View Post
    Nice, but I'd suggest a few unique abilities / maneuvers.
    That would add complexity and power, and I am not convinced that this class needs either at this point.
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    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    oops... no peach, I should stop commenting blindly.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    oops... no peach,
    “PEACH” is redundant. I have often changed my stuff based on replies on the forum: For examples, see here and here.
    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I should stop commenting blindly.
    If by “blindly”, you mean ‘without checking hit dice, Fort save, proficiencies, and the list of feats available, then that would be my guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    You are funny, ideasmith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    i think not having PEACH in the title means you arent posting it for reveiw, just so that its up there, so he's saying he shouldnt have gven you advice if you werent intending for it.

    might be wrong though, i dont know the exact "translastion" for PEACH or WIP.

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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a weaponmaster gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every weaponmaster level thereafter
    Copypaste issues here it looks like.

    .These bonus feats must be drawn from: feats noted as fighter bonus feats, martial weapon proficiency, light armor proficiency, medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency. A weaponmaster must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A weaponmaster is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
    This is confusing. The lack of proficiencies mean that at low levels they start off weaker than a fighter, and the weaker hit die makes that even more the case. Having to get those as feats isn't very helpful. This also doesn't address any of the real problems that fighters have: inability to pull their wait in any situation other than direct combat, and some difficulty even in that situation (e.g. with with opponents who don't just sit there and trade blow for blow with the fighter). Fighter fixes that don't address these issues have problems, and adding more feats doesn't really help that much. Your bump to skill points and the list of class skills is a step in the right direction however. But what the fighter really needs more than bonus feats is real class features. As it stands this will be substantially weaker in combat at low levels, and it doesn't have any out of combat or other combat options to make up for it.


    Edit: At high levels this is slightly stronger than the fighter. Use the obvious build of using the extra feats to get back the missing proficiencies. Then use an extra feat to improved toughness and a few copies of toughness. You'll have more hitpoints than a fighter and a few extra goodies at around level 19 or so. So if one is building a high-level character there's a straight build that makes this stronger than a fighter. Unfortunately that's already where fighters are weakest.

    Edit: There appears to be a typo on the table on level 20 where it has only 1d6 for focus damage at 20.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Hrm....

    Either this is a semi-pointless fighter fix (which you insist it isn't) or it's just a low HD, high skill bare class chassis with no features....

    I daresay I could build a competent combatant using this, after all you can obtain most of the tactical feats fairly fast, and I guess that would afford you some limited options, but beyond that there's little to no point in ever taking this class (much like fighter).

    I had a human fighter once in a group full of newbies, there was no meatshield so I rolled up a pretty nasty 2HW fighter build. He had less than 13 int, so at level 14 I was actually pretty much forced to take barbarian levels, because I'd run out of feats I wanted which I could qualify for. This guy will have that trouble faster and more often, unless you open multiple splatbooks, and even then there's the trouble that nowhere does it say you count as a fighter, and will therefore be discluded from the entire Weapon Spec tree.

    Fighters can be built to deal truly prodigious damage in melee, this is true. Trouble is, that's ALL you do, and every decent campaign I've ever been in has thrown up PLENTY of situations where 'I slice the guy in half' just doesn't cut it (pun intentional ).

    A class called 'Weaponmaster' should CERTAINLY have simple and martial as standard, I'd also argue that giving them a free exotic proficiency (weapon, armour or shield) for every point of Int or Wis modifier would make a huge amount of sense. I'd say they should be allowed to use light armour and shields and still retain their AC bonus too, they're frontline combatants with D6 HD, they need as much help as they can get!

    Also, Focus Strike would probably be far more useful if it was additional damage, instead of replacement damage, otherwise you only need to take a greatsword (which is pretty much the best option anyhow) to completely nullify the only class feature this has until level 16, unless you wish to use an inferior weapon of course...

    I fail to see a reason to take this class beyond perhaps 4 or 5 levels of free feats to assist on munchkin builds.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    I meant blind as in ignoring the lack of PEACH, without which this could well be just posting as an art piece or something. Really more of a courtesy thing, and not really redundant, more like adding capital letters to sentences(not wholy important, but confusing and irritating when missing).

    as for the class...

    It really needs actual class features. As is, the weapon master will have to dive into the teacup of useful feats for any build. I see no reason this is anything but a dip for more feats and to buff a sorcs/favored soul/wilder's armor class. actually I could see a weapon master/sorc/abjurant champion walking around with stupid ac...

    I would sugest adding weapon style class features that buff a weapons in some way(add reach, make it work at close range, better triping ect) or a soulknifes blade or something...

    And would you add a few lines explaining the intent? As is, I am really flying blind with my comments, as I have no idea of the classes goal. Even some fluff would help.
    Last edited by bobthe6th; 2012-05-08 at 04:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by zegram 33 View Post
    i think not having PEACH in the title means you arent posting it for reveiw, just so that its up there, so he's saying he shouldnt have gven you advice if you werent intending for it.

    might be wrong though, i dont know the exact "translastion" for PEACH or WIP.
    I have been posting on this forum since 2006, so I am speaking from experience when I say that you critiquing homebrew that lacks the ‘PEACH’ tag is customary.


    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Copypaste issues here it looks like.
    Thanks for catching that. Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    This is confusing. The lack of proficiencies mean that at low levels they start off weaker than a fighter, and the weaker hit die makes that even more the case. Having to get those as feats isn't very helpful. This also doesn't address any of the real problems that fighters have: inability to pull their wait in any situation other than direct combat, and some difficulty even in that situation (e.g. with with opponents who don't just sit there and trade blow for blow with the fighter). Fighter fixes that don't address these issues have problems, and adding more feats doesn't really help that much. Your bump to skill points and the list of class skills is a step in the right direction however. But what the fighter really needs more than bonus feats is real class features. As it stands this will be substantially weaker in combat at low levels, and it doesn't have any out of combat or other combat options to make up for it.
    Whether fighters are underpowered in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren’t noticing this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Edit: At high levels this is slightly stronger than the fighter. Use the obvious build of using the extra feats to get back the missing proficiencies. Then use an extra feat to improved toughness and a few copies of toughness. You'll have more hitpoints than a fighter and a few extra goodies at around level 19 or so. So if one is building a high-level character there's a straight build that makes this stronger than a fighter. Unfortunately that's already where fighters are weakest.
    Toughness is not on the weaponmaster’s bonus feat list. (I don’t know whether improved toughness is, or for sure what it does, since I don’t have that book.) Weaponmasters can use their ‘standard’ feats to increase hit points,..but so can fighters, who can gain the same number of hit points by doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Edit: There appears to be a typo on the table on level 20 where it has only 1d6 for focus damage at 20.
    Thanks for catching that. Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Hrm....

    Either this is a semi-pointless fighter fix (which you insist it isn't) or it's just a low HD, high skill bare class chassis with no features....

    I daresay I could build a competent combatant using this, after all you can obtain most of the tactical feats fairly fast, and I guess that would afford you some limited options, but beyond that there's little to no point in ever taking this class (much like fighter).

    I had a human fighter once in a group full of newbies, there was no meatshield so I rolled up a pretty nasty 2HW fighter build. He had less than 13 int, so at level 14 I was actually pretty much forced to take barbarian levels, because I'd run out of feats I wanted which I could qualify for. This guy will have that trouble faster and more often, unless you open multiple splatbooks, and even then there's the trouble that nowhere does it say you count as a fighter, and will therefore be discluded from the entire Weapon Spec tree.

    Fighters can be built to deal truly prodigious damage in melee, this is true. Trouble is, that's ALL you do, and every decent campaign I've ever been in has thrown up PLENTY of situations where 'I slice the guy in half' just doesn't cut it (pun intentional ).

    A class called 'Weaponmaster' should CERTAINLY have simple and martial as standard,
    What do you suggest calling a class that is very good at one or a few weapons (chosen by the player), but not trained in most weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    I'd also argue that giving them a free exotic proficiency (weapon, armour or shield) for every point of Int or Wis modifier would make a huge amount of sense. I'd say they should be allowed to use light armour and shields and still retain their AC bonus too, they're frontline combatants with D6 HD, they need as much help as they can get!

    Also, Focus Strike would probably be far more useful if it was additional damage, instead of replacement damage, otherwise you only need to take a greatsword (which is pretty much the best option anyhow) to completely nullify the only class feature this has until level 16, unless you wish to use an inferior weapon of course...

    I fail to see a reason to take this class beyond perhaps 4 or 5 levels of free feats to assist on munchkin builds.
    Whether fighters are underpowered in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren’t noticing this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I meant blind as in ignoring the lack of PEACH, without which this could well be just posting as an art piece or something. Really more of a courtesy thing, and not really redundant, more like adding capital letters to sentences(not wholy important, but confusing and irritating when missing).
    Ignoring someone because they failed to learn an obscure abbreviation would seem more discourteous than discussing homebrew posted on a homebrew discussion forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    as for the class...

    It really needs actual class features. As is, the weapon master will have to dive into the teacup of useful feats for any build. I see no reason this is anything but a dip for more feats and to buff a sorcs/favored soul/wilder's armor class. actually I could see a weapon master/sorc/abjurant champion walking around with stupid ac...

    I would sugest adding weapon style class features that buff a weapons in some way(add reach, make it work at close range, better triping ect) or a soulknifes blade or something...


    And would you add a few lines explaining the intent? As is, I am really flying blind with my comments, as I have no idea of the classes goal. Even some fluff would help.
    Done. Thank you.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    I just point it out because otherwise people start peaching contest threads, WIP, voting threads, ect.

    what would be interesting though, is an expansion of "like the back of my hand"
    perhaps additional options specific to the weapon?
    allowing a spear to have inclusive reach a la spinning halabard or kunai getting something similar to palm toss(master thrower, complete warrior) or great axes getting something a kin to the warmind's sweaping strikes? let the abilities come at odd levels, with more favored weapons coming like once per four levels? still really restricted, but varied enough to allow some experimentation.
    then the class would have a real, distinctive ability set.

    been plotting to make something along those line for a while now, and keep failing to have the time.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Oh right, Toughness and Improved Toughness are not fighter bonus feats. Still, even without that, my basic remark stands: at low levels this is weaker than a fighter and at very high levels, it is slightly stronger. I'm still not clear on what you want this class to do.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    Whether fighters are underpowered in practice seems to vary from group to group. There certainly seem to be enough groups which aren’t noticing this problem.
    You've said this repeatedly now, could you point me in the direction of some of these groups, I'd love to know what their DM uses as a challenge after level 8, and whether they do ANYTHING outside of combat/preparation.

    I've been playing fighters in one guise or another for years now, and whereas I enjoy the challenge of such, I can say for a fact that Tier 5 is not a happy place when there's even a single spellcaster in the party, and there's always at least one!

    Fighters hit stuff. That's it. These guys hit stuff with slightly more panache. That's it.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I just point it out because otherwise people start peaching contest threads, WIP, voting threads, ect.
    I don’t see any reason for these not to be peached. Especially WIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    what would be interesting though, is an expansion of "like the back of my hand"
    perhaps additional options specific to the weapon?
    allowing a spear to have inclusive reach a la spinning halabard
    I don’t recognize that one. Is it anything like near and far or threatened reach?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    or kunai getting something similar to palm toss(master thrower, complete warrior)
    I don’t have complete warrior. Is palm toss anything like opportunity shot or anything goes long?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    or great axes getting something a kin to the warmind's sweaping strikes?
    If you are talking about this War Mind, sweaping strike looks like it could easily be turned into a feat chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    let the abilities come at odd levels, with more favored weapons coming like once per four levels? still really restricted, but varied enough to allow some experimentation.
    then the class would have a real, distinctive ability set.
    I’m not seeing the benefit in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    been plotting to make something along those line for a while now, and keep failing to have the time.
    Good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Oh right, Toughness and Improved Toughness are not fighter bonus feats. Still, even without that, my basic remark stands: at low levels this is weaker than a fighter and at very high levels, it is slightly stronger. I'm still not clear on what you want this class to do.
    About how much weaker at low levels? Should I be trying to come up with low level abilities which become obsolete at high levels and don’t make the class too dippable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    You've said this repeatedly now, could you point me in the direction of some of these groups, I'd love to know what their DM uses as a challenge after level 8, and whether they do ANYTHING outside of combat/preparation.
    Here is such a group. They only got up to 5th level while I was attending, so I can't speak about challenges after level 8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    I've been playing fighters in one guise or another for years now, and whereas I enjoy the challenge of such, I can say for a fact that Tier 5 is not a happy place when there's even a single spellcaster in the party, and there's always at least one!

    Fighters hit stuff. That's it. These guys hit stuff with slightly more panache. That's it.
    Since:

    1. If most 3.5 groups noticed severe balance problems the edition would have become very unpopular very quickly. A brand name only does so much.
    2. I often run into posts by or about gamers who are unaware of or disbelieving in the problem. They seem mostly sincere.
    3. This page needed an “I never had a problem before…” sidebar.
    4. I have actually played in a game which had no signs of this problem, as linked above. (I was playing a fighter. His main weapon was shortsword.)

    I conclude that groups which don’t notice that fighters are underpowered are common.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    1. If most 3.5 groups noticed severe balance problems the edition would have become very unpopular very quickly. A brand name only does so much.
    2. I often run into posts by or about gamers who are unaware of or disbelieving in the problem. They seem mostly sincere.
    3. This page needed an “I never had a problem before…” sidebar.
    4. I have actually played in a game which had no signs of this problem, as linked above. (I was playing a fighter. His main weapon was shortsword.)

    I conclude that groups which don’t notice that fighters are underpowered are common.
    1. 3.5 still offers (in my mind at least) the best all-round TT-RPG experience. It does combat, social interactions, gives massive scope and range for all sorts of permutations and concepts, allows for basically an incredibly rich and interactive environment playable with an almost infinite number of possible character builds. It's much loved, well known, works remarkably well considering everything it does and uses the D20 system (which has to be one of the simplest systems, roll one die, add this number, simple!). Fact is, as good as it is, there are still serious issues, and the fact that a lot of people don't even know what logarithmic progressions, linear and quadratic scalings are just answers as to why the system never got b!tched about more or sooner.
    Don't get me wrong, I love 3.5, but ANYONE with half a brain can see how a level 12 wizard is FAAAAAAR more potent than a level 12 fighter, even if the fighter is optimised and the wizard is badly made, the wizard will likely still have more/better options to the vast majority of encounters.

    2. I think I covered this above...

    3. Perhaps, aye, but it wouldn't change my mind on this I'm afraid. I play fighters, I love 3.5, I still see the inherant troubles. If you've never played a fighter past level 8 or 9 with even a single experienced player using something above tier 5 then you can be forgiven the lack of understanding when I say 'I can hit that guy until he's dead, then I need a lot of buffs or somewhere to sit down and watch'
    This is what most fighters spend a lot of time doing once flying/invisible/magic-using/reflex or will based ability using/specific DR/etc creatures start turning up. Fact.

    4. Short swords are only really useful in pairs, and even then, unless you're using a fair bit of splat/brew it's not a great style. You meet a creature with DR/15 and suddenly you're unlikely to do much of any damage without gimping your to hit (which already gets gimped if you want enough attacks to stay relevant).

    I conclude that some games don't do much other than dungeon crashing and combat where the fighter can excel with his one and only trick, but most of the campaigns I've ever played in/DMed/known about have had a hell of a lot beyond that, and the fighter does nothing in any of it. The greatsword wielder who had to resort to barbarian (mentioned in earlier post) had 2 out of combat uses:
    1. Muscle for carrying/moving stuff
    2. Crafting masterwork metal weapons and armour out of any decent materials the group found

    Kinda boring after a while, really!

    Quote Originally Posted by ideasmith View Post
    About how much weaker at low levels? Should I be trying to come up with low level abilities which become obsolete at high levels and don’t make the class too dippable?
    No, you need to come up with class level scaling abilities which stay relevant throughout. Feats don't scale, fighters get nothing but feats, primary problem identified!
    Last edited by Veklim; 2012-05-10 at 06:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    spinning halabard is PHBII weapon style feat, that gives a close ranged attack.
    palm toss lets the thrower chuck two weapons for the price of one, allowing for a fun little build of a swashbuckler/fighter/master thrower spaming TWF rapid shot, palm tossed flaming kunai at a rate of 10 shots a round at level 6 for 1+int mod+1d6 fire damage.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    I feel a need to mention this; halberds are not reach weapons, so spinning halberd basically just gives you a flurry attack. There is however the short haft feat, which allows you to negate a reach weapon's reach with a swift action, to use it against adjacent targets.
    Also, I do agree that this class is somewhat under-powered, if you want to try to increase it's versatility you may want to look at classes such as the warblade(link 1, link 2), duskblade, or barbarian(at least with acfs applied)

    edit; also, here's a link to jaronK's tier list, it's generally viewed as being a good way to categorize the power levels of various classes.
    Last edited by Togath; 2012-05-10 at 08:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    huh, always thought it was... I mean the thing is based of a semi pike...

    still yeah, the idea...

    This could work if you overhauled the feat chains, and added like 20 more feat chains, especially were they could synergies...
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    What I gather from the concept (what with the good Reflex saves, precision damage, and d6 hit dice) is that this is a class that specializes in dishing out pain and not taking it, in a skilled and perhaps flamboyant way (Charisma to AC).

    My advice is to eschew 20 feat and reduce it to, say, 5 feats. Instead, focus on a class feature like Parry, where your character deflects an incoming blow with an opposed attack roll. Impose a -2 penalty from level 1, with the penalty removed by 1 at levels 3 and 7, and give a +1 cumulative bonus to Parry checks at levels 11, 15, and 19.

    Then, given them a Riposte class feature that lets them hit an opponent if they successfully Parry. Perhaps have it consume an Attack of Opportunity, or have limited uses per round or whatnot.

    Follow up with abilities that let them take a 5 or 10-foot step when they parry, the ability to deflect missile weapons, and maybe even magic. Make a character that is simply untouchable. Just remember to make them feel the hurt when they ARE hit. Skilled But Weak is the idea i have here.

    You'll find the class a lot more flavorful if you do it this way.

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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Since you are no longer really talking about the subject of this thread, I shall limit my reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    spinning halabard is PHBII weapon style feat, that gives a close ranged attack.
    palm toss lets the thrower chuck two weapons for the price of one, allowing for a fun little build of a swashbuckler/fighter/master thrower spaming TWF rapid shot, palm tossed flaming kunai at a rate of 10 shots a round at level 6 for 1+int mod+1d6 fire damage.
    Palm toss looks like a potential feat tree to me, while spinning halbard not only looks like a feat, but is one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Togath View Post
    I feel a need to mention this; halberds are not reach weapons, so spinning halberd basically just gives you a flurry attack. There is however the short haft feat, which allows you to negate a reach weapon's reach with a swift action, to use it against adjacent targets.
    Also, I do agree that this class is somewhat under-powered, if you want to try to increase it's versatility you may want to look at classes such as the warblade(link 1, link 2), duskblade, or barbarian(at least with acfs applied)

    edit; also, here's a link to jaronK's tier list, it's generally viewed as being a good way to categorize the power levels of various classes.
    I am aware of both jaronk’s tierlist and this similar list. Neither of them states or implies that fighters are too weak. What they state is that fighters and wizards don’t belong in the same party. And I think they underestimate most groups’ tolerance for power discrepancies.
    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    huh, always thought it was... I mean the thing is based of a semi pike...

    still yeah, the idea...

    This could work if you overhauled the feat chains, and added like 20 more feat chains, especially were they could synergies...
    More feats are always nice..
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronologist View Post
    What I gather from the concept (what with the good Reflex saves, precision damage, and d6 hit dice) is that this is a class that specializes in dishing out pain and not taking it, in a skilled and perhaps flamboyant way (Charisma to AC).

    My advice is to eschew 20 feat and reduce it to, say, 5 feats. Instead, focus on a class feature like Parry, where your character deflects an incoming blow with an opposed attack roll. Impose a -2 penalty from level 1, with the penalty removed by 1 at levels 3 and 7, and give a +1 cumulative bonus to Parry checks at levels 11, 15, and 19.

    Then, given them a Riposte class feature that lets them hit an opponent if they successfully Parry. Perhaps have it consume an Attack of Opportunity, or have limited uses per round or whatnot.

    Follow up with abilities that let them take a 5 or 10-foot step when they parry, the ability to deflect missile weapons, and maybe even magic. Make a character that is simply untouchable. Just remember to make them feel the hurt when they ARE hit. Skilled But Weak is the idea i have here.

    You'll find the class a lot more flavorful if you do it this way.
    I prefer classes that enable flavorful characters to classes that are flavorful in themselves. Your otherwise solid-looking suggestions narrow the player’s options in a way I don’t care for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
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    Default Re: Weaponmaster [3.5, base class]

    Rewrite, based on suggestions from an other website.
    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    You are funny, ideasmith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    I really like the way the Awareness school came about. I created a Detection subschool, which you reinterpreted into a conceptually distinct Awareness subschool. Then I misinterpreted what you meant and created yet another conceptually (slightly) distinct Awareness subschool. Teamwork!
    I try to keep my homebrew catgirl-safe. (link)

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