The Oracle Thread

[Zmeoaice]

The Oracle has been a character that caused a lot of foreshadowing and speculation.

So far none of his prophecies have failed yet.

Except maybe this.

The one's that haven't come true are Durkon and Belkar's death, Elan's happy ending. Possibly V's answer since the "complete and total ultimate control" only lasted a few hours, although I heard this was confirmed.

Speaking of which he's responsible for the extermination of 1/4 of black dragons considering how he knew V would get complete arcane powers and told the black dragon mommy who V was. There's no way he didn't see that coming. I think that shows a lot about his character, and he may be hiding something.... Or he's just an apathetic jerk.

Discuss.

"Lick my orange balls, Halfling."

[Forikroder]

he jsut doesnt care about anyone else, the only time he would take action to prevent something is if it had the potential to both kill him and prevent his ressurection

[Smolder]

The Oracle has been a character that caused a lot of foreshadowing and speculation.

Speaking of which he's responsible for the extermination of 1/4 of black dragons considering how he knew V would get complete arcane powers and told the black dragon mommy who V was. There's no way he didn't see that coming. I think that shows a lot about his character, and he may be hiding something.... Or he's just an apathetic jerk.

Discuss.

"Lick my orange balls, Halfling."

Well, the Oracle's prediction to V was carefully worded to include a clear warning "...for all the wrong reasons." To most people that would seem to imply a Faustian bargain of some sort, but V heard only confirmation that s/he would achieve total arcane power and chose not to heed the warning.

[Sunken Valley]

Well, the Oracle's prediction to V was carefully worded to include a clear warning "...for all the wrong reasons." To most people that would seem to imply a Faustian bargain of some sort, but V heard only confirmation that s/he would achieve total arcane power and chose not to heed the warning.

To be fair, not many of our forumites predicted a faustian bargain until Quarr showed up. And even then few because Quarr was a low-life nobody. Even less predicted V would get it when she did.

Edit: Did you know that the Oracle is one of my favourite characters. Bet you never guessed?

[Vulkos]

There is also a semi-prophecy: when Belkar and Hailey come to the Oracle the second time and the former starts complaining about how his prophecy had not realized yet, the Oracle begins to explain why B was actually the cause of the deaths of everyone of his "choices".
Then He also starts a sentence about Vaarsuvius before getting shut, so one could think of that as a foreshadowing of V's death because of Belkar.

A link should be here but I haven't the time to check it out at the very moment.

Edit: I found time :)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
"and as for the elf..."

[Whiffet]

There is also a semi-prophecy: when Belkar and Hailey come to the Oracle the second time and the former starts complaining about how his prophecy had not realized yet, the Oracle begins to explain why B was actually the cause of the deaths of everyone of his "choices".
Then He also starts a sentence about Vaarsuvius before getting shut, so one could think of that as a foreshadowing of V's death because of Belkar.

A link should be here but I haven't the time to check it out at the very moment.

Edit: I found time :)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
"and as for the elf..."

Those prophecy explanations were getting more and more ridiculous. Whatever the Oracle was about to say would be even more of a stretch than the "death" of Windstriker.

[Roland Itiative]

Except maybe this.

That wasn't as much a prophecy, as it was a suggestion. If I recall correctly, the Oracle's words were, in fact "try ginkgo biloba" (supposedly because Blackwing asked how he could make V remember him, not if V will ever do so). He didn't say trying it would yield the wanted results. And, well, V did start remembering his familiar, so even if we count that as a prophecy, and Blackwing did in fact find some way to have V ingest ginkgo biloba offscreen, Blackwing would have no reason to ask for a refund.

There is also a semi-prophecy: when Belkar and Hailey come to the Oracle the second time and the former starts complaining about how his prophecy had not realized yet, the Oracle begins to explain why B was actually the cause of the deaths of everyone of his "choices".
Then He also starts a sentence about Vaarsuvius before getting shut, so one could think of that as a foreshadowing of V's death because of Belkar.

A link should be here but I haven't the time to check it out at the very moment.

Edit: I found time :)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
"and as for the elf..."

About that... I think the Oracle was going to twist the whole Darth V situation as analogue to "death", and say that, in a contrived way, Belkar was responsible for it. So, another excuse to keep hidden the fact his death was the reason the answer was "yes".

If V was going to be killed by Belkar, the Oracle could just say "it hasn't happened yet, but you will kill the elf", or something.

[Forikroder]

That wasn't as much a prophecy, as it was a suggestion. If I recall correctly, the Oracle's words were, in fact "try ginkgo biloba" (supposedly because Blackwing asked how he could make V remember him, not if V will ever do so). He didn't say trying it would yield the wanted results. And, well, V did start remembering his familiar, so even if we count that as a prophecy, and Blackwing did in fact find some way to have V ingest ginkgo biloba offscreen, Blackwing would have no reason to ask for a refund.

especially since i doubt Roy gave the Oracle enough money for Blackwing to get a question too

[Zmeoaice]

There is also a semi-prophecy: when Belkar and Hailey come to the Oracle the second time and the former starts complaining about how his prophecy had not realized yet, the Oracle begins to explain why B was actually the cause of the deaths of everyone of his "choices".
Then He also starts a sentence about Vaarsuvius before getting shut, so one could think of that as a foreshadowing of V's death because of Belkar.
Edit: I found time :)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
"and as for the elf..."

However it was cut short so it could go either way. The prophecy only required Belkar to kill one of them, so he could have said that V wouldn't die by Belkar.

[Vulkos]

Those prophecy explanations were getting more and more ridiculous. Whatever the Oracle was about to say would be even more of a stretch than the "death" of Windstriker.

About that... I think the Oracle was going to twist the whole Darth V situation as analogue to "death", and say that, in a contrived way, Belkar was responsible for it. So, another excuse to keep hidden the fact his death was the reason the answer was "yes".

If V was going to be killed by Belkar, the Oracle could just say "it hasn't happened yet, but you will kill the elf", or something.

Yes, I meant: surely it would have been "even more a stretch than [...]".
I'm not saying Belkar will kill V, I'm saying V will die.
His death's going to allow to still be connected with Belkar in some ridicolous way, but that was not supposed to be my point.

I don't believe the hypothesis in which the Oracle was talking about the Darth V thing, that was not "death", not even in a twisted way.

(all of the above, is obviously "in my humble opinion")


Edit:

However it was cut short so it could go either way. The prophecy only required Belkar to kill one of them, so he could have said that V wouldn't die by Belkar.

It is the "and" at the beginning of the sentence that brings me to tell he would have said that V would die (were it because of Belkar or "because" of Belkar).
I'm not anglophone so I may be wrong, but I thought that if the Oracle had wanted to tell b he was not going to kill "the elf" he should have begin that sentence (mind the context) with "but" or maybe "while" or "though".

[Forikroder]

V will almost certainly die because toherwise him selling his soul to the fiends wouldnt ahve any story importance

[t209]

What if (Not from Oracles, except his death)

Spoiler

Show

"death and destruction" on Durkon's home will have connection with malack, priest of Nergel, god of death and destruction.

[Vulkos]

V will almost certainly die because toherwise him selling his soul to the fiends wouldnt ahve any story importance

I read somewhere on the board that is common belief that the IFCC can use its "time" even with V still alive.
Whether it's true or false, we seem to agree with V eventually coming to her/his death :)

[Roland Itiative]

Yes, I meant: surely it would have been "even more a stretch than [...]".
I'm not saying Belkar will kill V, I'm saying V will die.
His death's going to allow to still be connected with Belkar in some ridicolous way, but that was not supposed to be my point.

I don't believe the hypothesis in which the Oracle was talking about the Darth V thing, that was not "death", not even in a twisted way.

(all of the above, is obviously "in my humble opinion")

The Oracle was already stretching the meaning of "death" at that point, whatever he wanted to say about V would probably stretch it even more. Being struck in the afterlife (what he counted as Windstriker's death) is as "dead" as, say, hanging out with a trio of ghosts for a few hours, or having your soul forcefully pulled from your body and dragged into hell for a similar amount of time.

V will almost certainly die because toherwise him selling his soul to the fiends wouldnt ahve any story importance

Not necessarily. The deal never included anything about when the fiends will get to "own" V's soul.

[Forikroder]

I read somewhere on the board that is common belief that the IFCC can use its "time" even with V still alive.
Whether it's true or false, we seem to agree with V eventually coming to her/his death :)

its widely considered by like every single work of finction ever that includes deals for selling ones soul that the dont get said soul until you die or at the very least complete the task if its something like "ill give you my soul if you let me take down (insert huge giant nigh impossible task)"

since V sold his soul for a good (the 3 other souls) then following pretty much everyones definition of selling your soul they cant touch V until hes dead and his soul leaves the mortal plane

which is further enforced by them telling Quarr they cant influence the mortal plane unless there making a deal

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

[DaveMcW]

its widely considered by like every single work of finction ever that includes deals for selling ones soul that the dont get said soul until you die

oh really?

[Forikroder]

oh really?

waht does being possesed by a demon have to do with selling your soul?

[theNater]

waht does being possesed by a demon have to do with selling your soul?

One handy way to become possessed is to sell your soul without an "after death" clause.

[Forikroder]

One handy way to become possessed is to sell your soul without an "after death" clause.

i cant think of reading any story where someone buys something from the devil and just gets possessed

[Gift Jeraff]

While not quite possession, there certainly are stories where the soul is harvested before death. The Pinky and the Brain Halloween special comes to mind.

[Beanie]

its widely considered by like every single work of finction ever that includes deals for selling ones soul that the dont get said soul until you die or at the very least complete the task if its something like "ill give you my soul if you let me take down (insert huge giant nigh impossible task)"

since V sold his soul for a good (the 3 other souls) then following pretty much everyones definition of selling your soul they cant touch V until hes dead and his soul leaves the mortal plane

Putting aside your dubious claim of "every single work of fiction ever" working the way you say, and the even more dubious implication that because other works do something THIS work has to do it, the whole point of the theory is that Vaarsuvius is operating under that very assumption, that what is going on is a "traditional" soul-selling. But reviewing the comic in question suggests it may not be the case.

First V gives their definition of what they perceive the the deal to be, "eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died." But the fiends shoot down this interpretation unequivocally. Because they've done this, the base assumptions V has about how the soul-selling works - namely that it's after they die - have no bearing on the fiends' actual deal. What they actually say is: "Each one of us will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of the Soul Splice." There is nothing in there that states or even implies that said "getting of souls" occurs after death.

Seriously, your argument of other works not doing it so this work can't do it really just boggles my mind.

which is further enforced by them telling Quarr they cant influence the mortal plane unless there making a deal

This argument makes more sense, but what they say is that they can "only act directly" (Emphasis mine). How directly is defined is unclear; does taking control of V's soul count as directly acting on the mortal plane? Does it still fall under the paramaeters of "making a deal?" We don't know.

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

No, people think it because it would be an interesting plot twist. It doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen, but it's a theory that has merit as it would be completely in-keeping with the fiends to subtly twist the deal in such a way without V knowing about it.

[Zmeoaice]

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

The fact that you consider it a possibility shows that it's not so impossible after all

I'm not anglophone so I may be wrong, but I thought that if the Oracle had wanted to tell b he was not going to kill "the elf" he should have begin that sentence (mind the context) with "but" or maybe "while" or "though".

It's really just a continuation of his ramblings. Although using negative conjunctions would have made V's survial more likely (but not set, because he could be saying that Belkar would kill V directly unlike the others) his choice made the situation ambiguous. He's not much of a formal speaker anyways.

[Forikroder]

This argument makes more sense, but what they say is that they can "only act directly" (Emphasis mine). How directly is defined is unclear; does taking control of V's soul count as directly acting on the mortal plane? Does it still fall under the paramaeters of "making a deal?" We don't know.

ya im pretty sure directly controlling someone on the mortal plane would be directly acting on the mortal plane and have nothing to do with making a deal

they pretty much straight looked at the camera and said "we can do absolutely nothing until V dies"

The fact that you consider it a possibility shows that it's not so impossible after all

except i dont consider it a possibility

[Tricia]

they pretty much straight looked at the camera and said "we can do absolutely nothing until V dies"

No, they didn't.

What they DID say was that everything would have gone to waste if Xykon had killed V. That seems to heavily imply that they need V alive for whatever their plans are.

[rgrekejin]

its widely considered by like every single work of finction ever that includes deals for selling ones soul that the dont get said soul until you die or at the very least complete the task if its something like "ill give you my soul if you let me take down (insert huge giant nigh impossible task)"

since V sold his soul for a good (the 3 other souls) then following pretty much everyones definition of selling your soul they cant touch V until hes dead and his soul leaves the mortal plane

So... you think that the IFCC can't control V's soul while she is alive because of a clause that you (and presumably V) believe to have been implied by the contract, but was never explicitly stated?

...just so we're clear, we're talking about a Faustian Pact here, right?

[Zevox]

To be fair, not many of our forumites predicted a faustian bargain until Quarr showed up. And even then few because Quarr was a low-life nobody. Even less predicted V would get it when she did.

Maybe you just missed the ones that did, because I know for certain the idea of V getting that power from a demon lord or archdevil came up well before Qarr did, and people were predicting pretty much exactly what happened (minus the ABD of course) from the moment we saw Qarr fly off after V in the aftermath of V's departure from the refugee fleet.

Zevox

[Vulkos]

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

You should be careful with making such strong statements, 'cause maybe tomorrow a new strip will be out with the IFCC taking control of V's soul and you could be mocked to death :D

[Forikroder]

No, they didn't.

What they DID say was that everything would have gone to waste if Xykon had killed V. That seems to heavily imply that they need V alive for whatever their plans are.

uh ya because if Xykon jsut crushs V then nothing changes, he still sits in his tower, still does nothing and the only thing that changed is hes even more confmortable to be doing nothing because he just owned some uppity challenger

they needed V to do damage most likely they couldnt ahve cared less if Xykon had meteor swarmed him into ash since V had already made Xykon lose his phylactery and lit a fire on his ass

also if they can take over him... why havent they? why bother waiting? they can jsut chackle on the epic caster again and have him epic teleport or super planeshift where ever they need him to work his wizardly mojo and why not just use the 3 perfectly good epic level spellcaster souls they already have? what does Vs soul do that there souls dont?

i see no reason to believe the IFCC lied, they didnt really care taht much about Vs soul what they really wanted to do was wow there superiors and light a fire under Xykon getting Vs soul wasnt that important to them and i dont believe it serves anything insanely important since the small amount of time they get it for is more then enough for what they need it for and since Varsuvious lacks any special ability any other wizard could perform

You should be careful with making such strong statements, 'cause maybe tomorrow a new strip will be out with the IFCC taking control of V's soul and you could be mocked to death :D

we know 3 things about the IFCC, there very smart, they want tons of conflict and they have a long term plan to get them all extreme power

taking control of Vs soul doesnt make more conflict

[rgrekejin]

uh ya because if Xykon jsut crushs V then nothing changes, he still sits in his tower, still does nothing and the only thing that changed is hes even more confmortable to be doing nothing because he just owned some uppity challenger

they needed V to do damage most likely they couldnt ahve cared less if Xykon had meteor swarmed him into ash since V had already made Xykon lose his phylactery and lit a fire on his ass

Yeah, if you think that the IFCC were telling Qarr the whole truth in 668, I have some prime real estate on Mars to sell you. Yeah, they wanted Xykon to get moving, but that's almost certainly not their only goal (or even their primary goal, given that there was only a 84% of it happening) in the whole soul-splice episode. I mean, they're keeping awful close track of the time that they each get V's soul for. And, more importantly, they mention that that amount of time is more than sufficient for their purposes. That implies that they need V's soul for something, too. And, if they don't get it until after her death, what in the world could that possibly be? They already have plenty of damned souls if they want something to torture. They have the souls of more powerful spellcasters than V, if they want her for that. If they can't use it until after V's death, then her soul is just another soul, and potentially not even one they get to keep.

When I first read through the comics, I just assumed that they would control V's soul while she was still alive. I was mildly shocked to discover that there are people who thought that V would have to be dead first, and that V herself appeared to be one of them. The fact that V seems to think that they don't get her soul until she's dead just cements that view for me - the bad things that occur in pacts with fiends always comes from the fine print you didn't read, the clause you thought was implied, but was never explicitly said... the small thing you overlook. V was so prepared for her soul to be taken from her only after death that she didn't think to ask any questions about it. And so the fiends get away with their loophole.

[Forikroder]

Yeah, if you think that the IFCC were telling Qarr the whole truth in 668, I have some prime real estate on Mars to sell you. Yeah, they wanted Xykon to get moving, but that's almost certainly not their only goal (or even their primary goal, given that there was only a 84% of it happening) in the whole soul-splice episode. I mean, they're keeping awful close track of the time that they each get V's soul for. And, more importantly, they mention that that amount of time is more than sufficient for their purposes. That implies that they need V's soul for something, too. And, if they don't get it until after her death, what in the world could that possibly be? They already have plenty of damned souls if they want something to torture. They have the souls of more powerful spellcasters than V, if they want her for that. If they can't use it until after V's death, then her soul is just another soul, and potentially not even one they get to keep.

When I first read through the comics, I just assumed that they would control V's soul while she was still alive. I was mildly shocked to discover that there are people who thought that V would have to be dead first, and that V herself appeared to be one of them. The fact that V seems to think that they don't get her soul until she's dead just cements that view for me - the bad things that occur in pacts with fiends always comes from the fine print you didn't read, the clause you thought was implied, but was never explicitly said... the small thing you overlook. V was so prepared for her soul to be taken from her only after death that she didn't think to ask any questions about it. And so the fiends get away with their loophole.

they kept close track? they hit the button on a stop watch and hit stop after he lost the splice dont make it sound like it was some insanely difficult and onconvenient method, you can even see him holding the stop watch, it was probably a really cool one with three faces just in case he lost them irregularily

to me it would ruin the IFCC if there was fine print and they pulled one over on V, they had been showed to be extremely intellegent, like Kira and L level intellegence, when you show a character like the giant showed them you know there going to be the final boss, there going to be the final arc, there death or defeat will be the final scene (with some unimportant wrap up afterwards) there shown to be the guys hiding in the shadows while everyone dances on there puppet strings

but if they did have fine print and pulled a fast one on V then there not any of that there jsut dumb generic demons who need to team up to even make the most basic of deals happen

whatever purpose they have planned for Vs soul, its going to be alot more complicated then just using his soul to go for a joy ride in the mortal plane and it is 100% going to be after he dies