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    Default [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Well this is something I’ve had in the works for awhile.

    And man it's been awhile since I've been here.

    Anyway, The above is a large-scale retooling of the races, classes, feats, and spell lists of the Player’s Handbook. This was made as a full-scale replacement of those sections of the PHB for my gaming group and is a result of several months of scouring the Internet for the best in fixes, variants, alternate class features, and the like. It draws most heavily from Pathfinder, but no splatbook, no website, no third-party publisher, no crazy idea was left unexamined (though admittedly most were left untouched). In addition, I couldn’t help but insert a few of my own ideas here and there, most notably with complete revisions of the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard.

    Despite drawing heavily from Pathfinder, these classes are meant to play in 3.5, not Pathfinder. Though like all of 3.5, they’re fairly easily forward-compatible with Pathfinder.

    The design goal was pretty straightforward: take the Tier 1 and 2 classes and lower them to Tiers 3 or 4, and take the Tier 5 classes (as there are no Tier 6 PHB classes) and raise them to Tier 3 or 4. I feel that these two tiers are the best.

    And now, I’d like some opinions, because after all the goal is balance but I truthfully suck at that. Changes that I make based on your suggestions will be denoted in red, as visual proof that I do listen to you guys.

    Below is a brief (for a certain value of "brief") summary of all the changes made throughout.

    Races
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    Not much to be said here in most regards; I mostly adapted straight from Pathfinder, with the exception of the half-orc. For some reason, I’m just not happy with any half-orc fix that doesn’t retain the standard 3.5 “+2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha.” On that note, I went with the fairly standard fix: Half-elves and half-orcs now count as both human AND their other respective parent race; half-elves get human skill points; and half-orcs get human bonus feat.

    Classes
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    This is where the biggest portion of changes occur, so we’ll go class-by-class here. A few general changes:

    Medium Saves: The SWRPG d20 had “medium” saves; that is, saving throws that capped out at +9 rather than +6 or +12. I’ve always liked those, so they’re implemented throughout. Doesn’t change too much overall.

    Spellcasting: Each spellcasting class other than the Paladin received major revisions (the Paladin is basically untouched). There were two major changes to most of them – 1) Spellcasting is now always determined by two ability scores, with one used for save DCs and the other used for spells per day. Which two ability scores depend upon the class. 2) 8th and 9th level spells have been eliminated entirely; to make up for this, spells per day have generally be increased by two, cantrips and orisons are at-will abilities Pathfinder style, and the sorcerer also learns more spells.

    Barbarian
    The Barbarian is basically the Pathfinder barbarian, with a few small changes. Trap Sense was removed, as I wanted to make that a uniquely Rogue schtick. In its place is a relatively minor ability called “Wild Skills.” Wild Skills is more for flavor than anything and is pretty lackluster, so the Barbarian also gained some bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.
    Changes Since Posting: Has gained a "spell resistance" Rage power. Has gained the "Combat Training" ability, which lets them gain special Fighter benefits on feats as though they were a Fighter three levels lower, but only with feats on the Barbarian bonus feat list.

    Bard
    One of the most heavily changed classes. On reading the Book of Eldritch Might by Malhavoc Press (i.e., Monte Cook), I came to really like his version of the bard and used it as the base; however, Monte Cook’s bard didn’t get Bardic Music! We can’t have that. A quick rundown of changes:
    – Bardic spellcasting is now completely different. Just…read it, it’s difficult to describe but very flavorful.
    – Bard spellsong-casting uses Intelligence to determine the highest-level spellsong a bard can cast and bonus spellsongs per day, and Charisma for spellsong DCs
    – Bards still get Bardic Music
    – Bards get Versatile Performance, as per Pathfinder
    – Bards get Jack of All Trades, as per Pathfinder, but it was split in two and achieved earlier. JoaT gained at 7th level applies only to Bard skills, while an improved form at 14th level applies to all skills.
    – Bards get bonus feats at 8th and 16th levels.
    – Bards get Deadly Performance as per Pathfinder at 20th level
    – Bards now get 3 medium saves, rather than 2 good, 1 bad.
    – Bards no longer have an alignment restriction.
    – Overall I think I may have done too much for this class, but we’ll see.

    Cleric
    Another heavily changed class. The changes I have made to this class have bizarrely managed to make it at once the most and least customizable base class.
    – Cleric Fortitude saves are now medium rather than good.
    – The Cleric skill list has been slightly expanded, but it still receives the same 2 + Int skill points.
    – Clerics get Channel Energy as per Pathfinder.
    – Clerics get Orisons as per Pathfinder. Orisons are granted by Domains (see below).
    – Clerics receive a purely fluff ability called Matters of Faith which basically solves the problem that in 3.5 you could theoretically go up to the High Priest of Pelor, a 20th level Cleric, and ask him “who is Pelor,” and end up with him just shrugging.
    – Clerics receive Healing Touch, which is basically Lay on Hands, but is Wisdom-based.
    – Clerics get a bonus feat at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.
    – All gods have 5 domains. A cleric gets all 5 domains at 1st level. These domains grant powers as per Pathfinder, but the Cleric only gains the powers as he or she levels up. Clerics of no deity in particular (i.e., who worship a concept like “Justice” or “Coolness”) can instead pick any 4 domains, with the usual alignment restrictions. Also…see below.
    – Cleric spellcasting uses Wisdom for highest spell level castable and bonus spells per day, and Charisma for spell save DCs.
    – CLERICS DO NOT GET A SPELL LIST. Clerics cast only domain spells. They are, however, now spontaneous casters rather than prepared casters. They are locked into all their spell choices at level 1, however. See what I mean about most and least customizable class? Two clerics of two different deities (say, for example, the God of Spite and the Goddess(es) of the Moon(s)) now have really different feels and spell-lists, moreso than ever in 3.5, but you’re locked from 1st level. HAHAHAHAHA DISREGARD THAT I LIKE SOCKS.
    – Still, that’s not really all that different from playing a 3.5 Barbarian: there, you’re locked into special ability choices as well. So I don’t feel too badly. To make things up to the Cleric, they got those bonus feats. I feel I achieved what I set out to do with the Cleric, but I could be very wrong.
    Changes Since Posting: There's now a unified cleric spell list. Clerics do not ordinarily gain access to it; however, each time they gain a new spell level (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels), they can swap out one domain spell for a spell from the universal cleric list of the same level.

    Druid
    Druids received a huge number of changes.
    – Druids now have two medium saves and one good save (instead of two good, one bad).
    – Druids now receive Wild Shape earlier and can do it more often. However, it is now a Full-round action, provokes an attack of opportunity, and most important of all, is now a spell-like ability as it was back in 3.0. Or in other words, it can be dispelled.
    – Elemental Shape was made a distinct ability from Wild Shape. I forget why I did this, but it made sense at the time. Whatever, it mostly just follows the same Wild Shape rules.
    – The Druid gained Woodland Spring and Repel Nature’s Lure, little flavorful abilities from Wizards of the Coast’s Dead Levels article. I hate dead levels, you see, so if I can plug them with flavorful but useless abilities, I will do so.
    – Druids no longer receive an animal companion. This has been made into a feat available to both Druids and Rangers.
    – Druids now cast spells like a Ranger. Further, they actually receive the former Ranger spell list.
    – Unlike other spellcasting classes, Druids use only Wisdom for their spells (save DCs, bonus spells, highest spell level castable, etc), due to having such a small spell list.
    – With nerfed spellcasting, no animal companion (without blowing a feat), and weakened (and dispel-able!) Wild Shape¸ I think the druid has been successfully taken down to Tier 3.
    – Oh, by the way, there is no Natural Spell feat anymore.
    Changes Since Posting: Druids are now spellcasters with a CL equal to their Druid level -3, Pathfinder style.

    Fighter
    Squee. I love this thing.
    – Fighters now have a Medium reflex save
    – Fighters still receive bonus feats as per 3.5 progression.
    – However, most Fighter bonus feats now grant special bonuses to Fighters and only to Fighters. These special bonuses improve based on Fighter level.
    – Fighters get Bravery (as per Pathfinder) at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels.
    – Fighters get Dungeon Crasher at 3rd level, Improved Dungeon Crasher at 7th level, and Master Dungeon Crasher (an upgrade I made) at 16th level.
    – Fighters get Physical Prowess at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th levels. Physical Prowess is from the Dead Levels article mentioned earlier. It doesn’t do too much…but a fighter that takes nothing but the Strength-enhancing one plus gets Master Dungeon Crasher can, by 19th level, get a +29 bonus to Strength checks made to break objects. 19th level fighters should be able to sunder swords, sure. They should also be able to sunder walls.
    – Beginning at 4th level, Fighters can retrain feats.
    – Fighters get Elusive Attack (from PHBII) at 5th level.
    – Fighters also get Grit at 5th level. Grit is best described as “Fortitude Evasion.” This upgrades to Greater Grit (“Improved Fortitude Evasion”) at 13th level.
    – Fighters get an ability called Tough Defense at 8th level that lets them make Fortitude saves in the place of Reflex saves. At 12th level, they can now make Fortitude saves in the place of Will saves. They can do this a number of times per day equal to half their Fighter level. Note that this stacks with Grit.
    – Fighters get Counterattack (from the PHBII) at 9th level.
    – Fighters get Overpowering Attack (From the PHB II) at 15th level.
    – Fighters get Weapon Mastery (from Pathfinder) at 20th level.
    – Fighters now get 4 + Int skills per level.
    – The Fighter skill list has been considerably expanded. It now includes Gather Information, Knowledge (dungeoneering, engineering, history, and local), Listen and Spot, and Tumble.
    – All in all, I think we have a solid Tier-4 right here. Which is exactly what the Fighter wants to be. A Fighter isn’t trying to be useful in a multitude of situations. They fighters. They fight. The catch is, anything that they fight should friggin’ die.

    Monk
    I did not make this monk. I lifted it wholesale from this very site, in fact. HOWEVER, I’ve forgotten from whom. If anyone can tell me, I will be more than happy to include the credit where it is due. Anyway, this monk is beautiful, and whoever you are who did make it, I applaud you. That’s why I stole it. It was pretty.
    – Hmm, just realized that my feat section (below) does not include some of the feats that are mentioned here. Well, imagine that it does for now whilst I get to updating.
    Changes Since Posting: JIRIKU! Come on down and take credit! This is your baby that I kidnapped. Apparently a younger version of your baby, but your baby nonetheless. I'm going to stop this metaphor now because it's getting creepy, but the point is that this monk was lifted wholesale from jiriku.

    Paladin
    Only a few minor changes here, but all for the best. Except when not.
    – Will save has been worsened to be Medium rather than Good.
    – Smite Evil is now 3 + Wisdom modifier per day.
    – Gains Charging Smite (from PHBII) at 4th level.
    – Does not gain Channel Positive Energy (nor Turn Undead), as I wanted that to remain the Cleric’s schtick.
    – Gains Blessed Weapon (from Complete Warrior) at 5th level.
    – Does not gain a mount; this is now a feat.
    – Remove Disease is now per-day rather than per-week
    – Gains bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.
    – Gains the additional Auras Pathfinder introduced
    – Gains the Righteous Cause ability from the Dead Levels article mentioned above
    – Gains Holy Champion as per Pathfinder
    – Has an expanded skill list, though no additional skill points.
    – As with the Druid, the Paladin still requires only a single stat for spellcasting (Wisdom), since their spell list is so small and they’re MAD enough already.
    – May still be fairly weak for a Tier-4 and in need of improvement. I am open to suggetions.
    Changes Since Posting: Updated spell progression to be identical to Pathfinder's; changed class abilities to all be WIS-based rather than CHA-based. Paladins are now spellcasters with a CL equal to their Paladin level -3, Pathfinder style. Has gained the "Combat Training" ability, which lets them gain special Fighter benefits on feats as though they were a Fighter three levels lower, but only with feats on the Paladin bonus feat list. Armor Specialization and Improved Shield Bash were added to bonus feat list.
    Some ideas were additionally taken from T.G. Oskar's take on the class: It is now proficient with all shields (including tower shields), and Smite can now be applied to any melee attack as an immediate action, but only once per round (but it can no form part of a full attack or be used with attacks of opportunity). Smite now works almost exactly like T.G. Oskar's take on the class.

    Ranger
    Numerous changes throughout.
    – Various Pathfinder upgrades I can’t remember right now
    – Retains two good, one bad save
    – Gains Wild Traits at 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th levels, from a D&D Wiki article I can’t seem to find. Anyway, they all basically amount to +4 to a given skill and a special use of that skill.
    – Woodland Hunter, Perceptive Tracker, Seasoned Explorer, Instinctive Tracker, and Survivalist, all from the Dead Levels article that I keep mentioning and maybe I will marry it, okay?
    – Slightly upgraded skill list, though no upgrade to skill points
    – No longer a spellcaster at all, and does not gain an animal companion (that is now a feat)
    – Not sure what I’ve done here, exactly.
    Changes Since Posting: Updated Combat Style to account for new feats. Has gained the "Combat Training" ability, which lets them gain special Fighter benefits on feats as though they were a Fighter three levels lower, but only with feats on the Ranger bonus feat list. On that note, has gained a bonus feat list. Evasion is gained at 7th level instead of 9th. Rangers now gain Grit (as per Fighter) at 9th level.
    Some additional changes based on T.G. Oskar's take on the class: Favored enemy now applies to attacks as well as damage; Camouflage was moved to 8th level; Improved Evasion is now gained at 13th level; Hide in Plain SIght is now gained at 14th level; and Undetectable is gained at 17th level.
    Added in Master Hunter a la Pathfinder at 20th level. Really, I'm not sure how I missed that.

    Rogue
    Traditionally, this is my favorite class. Just floating that now.
    – Will save has been improved to Medium
    – Gains Talents as per Pathfinder. I personally added three: two let you deal Sneak Attack damage to Constructs and Undead, respectively, though it is halved; the third lets you deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack regardless of weapon, albeit at the standard -4 penalty.
    – Added Makeshift Tools from My Fiancé. I didn’t add Skilled Saboteur because that’s already covered by a Pathfinder talent
    – Added Master Strike from Pathfinder.
    – I seem to recall refining the skill list a little, but I can’t remember whether or not I did.
    – The class is otherwise largely unchanged as I think it does what it set out to do already, and not much need be changed. Note that it now has a monopoly on avoiding traps, although I recognize that Trap Sense is somewhat underwhelming an ability.

    Sorcerer
    Completely new!
    - HD, BAB, and saves are unchanged.
    - Eschew materials for free at 1st level.
    - Gets 3 cantrips as 3/day spell-like abilities at 1st level, and a bonus cantrip at 4th level and each level thereafter. At 7th level, they can use cantrips they know at will.
    - Gets a magic aura. They ping detect magic
    - Leans 1 spell per level (max 20). Highest-level spell they can learn is determined by level, but they can learn lower-level spells if they like (including cantrips). Spells per day based on level. At each level, they can swap out one spell known for a new spell, the maximum level of which can be one level lower than the highest-level spell they know how to cast (so, for example, a 9th-level sorcerer could exchange any spell they know for a cantrip, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell, but not a 4th level one).
    - Bonus feat at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
    - Spell shield, simiar to Dungeonscape, but it negates all damage, but it only works on energy damage (acid, cold, electric, fire, or sonic) or force damage.
    - Adept Sorcery: can make a Concentration check to not waste a spell if that spell wouldn't overcome a target's spell resistance.
    - Enduring magic: Duration spells that are dispelled will persist on a successful Spellcraft check for a number of rounds equal to 1 + Constitution modifier.
    - Spontaneous counterspell: Can counterspell spontaneously
    - Redirect magic: Can bounce countered spells back at their caster.
    - Living magic: Can continue to cast spells in an antimagic field or dead magic zone for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1/2 Constitution modifier
    – Sorcerers use Constitution to determine highest level spell castable and bonus spells per day. They use Charisma to determine spell save DCs
    – HAS A DISTINCT SPELL LIST FROM THE WIZARD. There is significant overlap, and Sorcerers have a smaller list overall, however Sorcerers get numerous spells that Wizards do not. Sorcerer spells focus on quick, flashy effects. Since they can’t specialize anyway, no effort was made to balance the schools.
    – I elected to not include the various Bloodlines of Pathfinder because, while they’re fun and all that, I don’t want Sorcerers to necessarily have a heritage or emphasize their heritage.

    Wizard
    The Enemy of Balance has been heavily modified.
    – All wizards have to specialize now. See more below.
    – Cantrips as per Pathfinder
    – No familiar; as mentioned, Familiars are now a feat.
    – My New Wife article gave the Wizard the Animated Script ability.
    – From both the My New Wife article (i.e., for those who haven’t followed the joke, the Dead Levels article) and the Archivist (from Heroes of Horror), the Wizard has gained Lore Mastery, Logical Mind, and Academic.
    – Retains Scribe Scroll and Bonus Feat.
    – Slightly expanded skill list (all classes now gain Listen and Spot as class skills, you see)
    – Wizard spellcasting uses Wisdom for highest spell castable and bonus spells per day, and Intelligence for spell save DCs
    – WIZARDS CAN ONLY CAST SPELLS FROM THEIR SPECIALIZED SCHOOL. A feat called Expanded Knowledge (which, yes, is a Wizard bonus feat), available at 4th level forward, allows them to learn spells from one additional school per time the feat is selected, provided it isn’t a banned school AND provided that school doesn’t ban your school. However, they can never apply metamagic feats to any spell school other than their specialized school. Further, each spell school has pre-selected banned schools (two of them); you no longer get to choose which schools are banned. As normal, you can never learn spells from banned schools.
    – Oh, by the way, read magic is now a Universal spell, so Divination can totally be banned and, in fact, it is, by Conjuration and Illusion, and Divination itself bans Abjuration and Illusion (this means that a Diviner can take Expanded Knowledge 4 times to learn Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation. He can’t take it for Abjuration or Illusion, because those are his banned schools; and he can’t take it for Conjuration, because Conjuration bans Divination (he can’t take it for Illusion for the same reason as well, it’s just redundant because Divination already bans Illusion)).
    – To make up for things, wizards now gain special abilities based on their schools. These special abilities are as per the nifty abilities found in Unearthed Arcana.
    – Wizards now have a distinct spell list from Sorcerers, as mentioned. There is significant overlap, and the Wizard spell-list is overall larger, but in general Wizards get better knowledge-gaining spells but worse pure combat spells.

    Well, that was a lot.

    Feats
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    The feats are by and large wholly stolen from Ziegander, and then modified. Specifically, Fighter bonus feats were modified to heavily favor Fighters by giving Fighters bigger benefits or special uses based on Fighter level. For example, anyone can take Toughness and get 3 HP +1 per character level, but a Fighter gets + Constitution HP on top of that per Fighter level (so a 6th level Fighter with 14 Constitution gets +21 HP, whereas a 6th level Wizard only gets +9 – less than half). Most of these benefits don't activate until Fighter 6 or 7, which simultaneously discourages dipping (7 levels is not a "dip") while encouraging Fighters to take as many levels of Fighter as possible.

    It’s like I’ve always said: the key to improving the Fighter is to improve the feats.

    As mentioned earlier, Familiar, Paladin Mount, and Animal Companion are now feats. Bards can take Familiar, but the other two are restricted to the usual classes. The Animal Companion (arguably the best of the three) has been weakened by no longer being able to share spells, not being upgradeable to a different animal, and has also just in general been weakened. The result is, I hope, that neither Ranger nor Druid will look at his animal companion, then to the fighter, and ask "why are you here again?"

    There are also metamagic and item creation feats. The latter are completely unchanged, while the former are basically unchanged except that spontaneous casters (clerics and sorcerers) applying metamagic feats to spells no longer need to spend a full-round action, they just apply the feat on the fly and consume a higher-level spell slot, Neverwinter Nights style. This means they can use Quicken Spell!

    This section also includes the Spellsong feats, which are basically metamagic feats for spellsongs, though their usefulness is dependent on Perform skill checks.

    Changes since posting:: Made changes to feats as suggested by T.G. Oskar, except for Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, and Improved Sunder, as I didn't know what to do with them.

    Spells
    Spoiler
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    Not much can be said here except a basic overview.
    – Bard spellsong list
    – Cleric domain list. There are 35 domains, if I recall correctly. Mostly they are drawn from Pathfinder or the Spell Compendium (and then upgraded to conform to Pathfinder standards). However, in all cases any abilities that were formerly based on, for example, 3 + WIS per day, were changed to be 3 + Cha per day. This was maintain the goal of making Clerics less SAD and more MAD.
    – Druid spell list, which is just the old Ranger spell list.
    – Paladin spell list, which is unchanged.
    – Sorcerer spell list. As mentioned, the Sorcerer spell list favors spells with short casting times and flashy effects, and no effort has been made to keep the spell schools balanced within it since sorcerers can’t specialize anyway. There is a slight Evocation dominance and a slight underrepresentation of Divination.
    – Wizard spell schools, which include the spells in each school, as well as description of each school’s granted powers (which, again, are lifted from Unearthed Arcana). The Wizard spell list also shows off some edits here and there to the placement of some spells. Acid Arrow, for example, is now Evocation (rather than Conjuration). Cause Fear is now in Enchantment rather than Necromancy. Cure spells and the like have been moved (back) to Necromancy.

    On that note, I just noticed a mistake. Flame Arrow should have been moved from Transmutation to Evocation. Oops.

    Wait a second! There are healing spells in the Sorcerer and the Wizard spell lists! That’s right. Both Sorcerers and Wizards get access to Cure and Inflict spell lines, though at different rates (Sorcerers at 1st, 3rd, and 5th; Wizards at 0, 2nd, 4th, and 6th). This is due to the fact the Clerics aren’t the greatest healers anymore unless they have access to both the Healing and Life domains, so I felt the need to spread the love over to arcane magic.
    – Some spell descriptions and spellsong descriptions also follow. Again, please note that all Cure spells are now Necromancy (healing). There is no such thing as Conjuration (healing) anymore.
    - Changes since posting: Added a generic cleric spell list (see cleric, above).

    Miscellanea
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    Random stuff
    – A default pantheon that makes use of the 35 domains, 5-domains-per-deity rule. The pantheon was constructed thusly: I divided the gods (which I already had hanging around) into Good, Neutral, and Evil. After spreading around the requisite four Alignment domains, I then took the remaining 31 domains and spread as many of them as possible into the Good deities; then I took them again and spread them into the Neutral deities; and then finally again into the Evil deities. The result is that each Good, Neutral, and Evil sections of the pantheon should have a good representation of the available domains (at a guess, about 32 each), thereby minimizing domain overlap between deities.
    – And just some codified House Rules that my gaming group makes use of but we’d never actually set into one place. You can ignore this section if you like; I’m not looking to have it reviewed.


    Anyway, I hope I did good. If not, I hope I at least didn’t totally screw up. If I did, well, Rogue Shadows is used to screwing up. Very sad life. Will probably have very sad death – but! At least there is symmetry.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-20 at 09:53 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Paladin
    Only a few minor changes here, but all for the best. Except when not.
    – Will save has been worsened to be Medium rather than Good.
    – Smite Evil is now 3 + Charisma modifier per day.
    – Gains Charging Smite (from PHBII) at 4th level.
    – Does not gain Channel Positive Energy (nor Turn Undead), as I wanted that to remain the Cleric’s schtick.
    – Gains Blessed Weapon (from Complete Warrior) at 5th level.
    – Does not gain a mount; this is now a feat.
    – Remove Disease is now per-day rather than per-week
    – Gains bonus feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.
    – Gains the additional Auras Pathfinder introduced
    – Gains the Righteous Cause ability from the Dead Levels article mentioned above
    – Gains Holy Champion as per Pathfinder
    – Has an expanded skill list, though no additional skill points.
    – As with the Druid, the Paladin still requires only a single stat for spellcasting (Wisdom), since their spell list is so small and they’re MAD enough already.
    – May still be fairly weak for a Tier-4 and in need of improvement. I am open to suggetions.
    its rather impressive how badly you fail to understand what is wrong with paladin.
    MAD: Unaddressed, you leave them requiring 5 of the 6 attributes total to be effective, when every normal Homebrew makes their casting attribute Cha.
    Smite: You dont even bother to fix this, sure a few more uses helps. A few more is minimal, on an ability that is weak for reasons other then you cant use it enough.
    Lay on Hands: the absurdly weak 3rd ed version, thats a nerf
    Forced Weapon at lvl 5: sure, id love a Class Ability that has no functional value after i get my 4th level spellslots.
    Charging Smite: Wheres my horse? oh, right, you killed it.
    PF Auras: ooh, stuff i have no value for because they dont block what they need to and provide effects that i already use spells for?
    Holy Champion: Ooh, DR10/Evil, i hope im not doing my job because what should make me able to do it, is bypassed by a feat all my enemies get automatically.
    Rallying Cause: im supposed to be a Land Battleship, not a field commander.
    Remove Disease: Mercies are way better. and Mercies suck
    Bonus Feats: You seem to have just picked a list of feats that seemed to go well with mounted combat. If you hadnt already taken them already, you arent going to by then.
    No turn undead: About the only saving grace of the PHB paladin. and you remove it.
    Spellcasting: -4 spells per day at lvl 20 over PhB paladin, -2 per day over PF paladin

    Overall Work: You take what starts as a mid tier-5 class, and drop them down to a low Tier 6. you managed to take the weak aspects of paladin, and only the weakest strengths.


    My Homebrew: found here.
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    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    First, calm down. I openly admitted that I'm open to suggestions, so there is no reason to get condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    MAD: Unaddressed, you leave them requiring 5 of the 6 attributes total to be effective, when every normal Homebrew makes their casting attribute Cha.
    They're a warrior class with spells. They're going to be MAD by definition, needing STR, CON, and a casting stat regardless, while still wanting good DEX and INT if possible.

    Having said that, I think I'll go the other direction - change various class features to be WIS-based and keep their casting stat WIS. Same difference, really, but I would just prefer the Paladin to care about WIS rather than CHA. Brooding knight, etc.

    Smite: You dont even bother to fix this, sure a few more uses helps. A few more is minimal, on an ability that is weak for reasons other then you cant use it enough.
    3 + CHA (or WIS, as I'll be changing it to) seems like a decent number. I'm given to understand the other two major complaints are that the damage isn't really significant and that it can potentially be wasted. I am not changing the latter (really, it's not that much different than an enemy succeeding on a saving throw against a spell), though I'm perfectly willing to change the former (that is, damage). What would you suggest?

    Lay on Hands: the absurdly weak 3rd ed version, thats a nerf
    Paladins aren't healers. They can heal, but they are not, by design, healers. Lay on Hands is really meant to be more of a quick fix while waiting for the Cleric/Druid to do more serious work, or to stabilize a dying character, or the like. I see no actual problem with it as-is (though I'll be changing it to be WIS-based).

    Forced Weapon at lvl 5: sure, id love a Class Ability that has no functional value after i get my 4th level spellslots.
    Explain to me how you plan to get holy sword at levels 5-13 and I'll change or replace this ability. Until then, a class ability that's good for 9 levels and is only made obsolete by the class gaining access to its most powerful spells, is not innately bad (or even mediocre). Besides which, holy sword can be dispelled, Blessed Weapon can't be.

    Also, what do you mean by "forced" weapon? You know it applies to any weapon the paladin is holding, right?

    Charging Smite: Wheres my horse? oh, right, you killed it.
    You realize you can charge when not mounted, right?

    It's dangerous to talk about things you don't seem to actually know! And to go alone! Here, take this!

    And if you want the horse so badly, it's still there, it's just a feat, one level later; a feat you wouldn't of normally gotten anyway, so the one-level delay is minimal considering that you can switch out the horse for some other nifty trick if you like.

    PF Auras: ooh, stuff i have no value for because they dont block what they need to and provide effects that i already use spells for?
    Spells can be dispelled, Auras are supernatural and so can't be. The Auras also provide bonuses to nearby allies, which not every spell is going to be able to do.

    In general, a slightly smaller effect that's permanent and can't be dispelled > a slightly larger effect that's temporary and can be dispelled. Which would you rather have, a potion of bull's strength, or gauntlets of ogre power +3?

    Holy Champion: Ooh, DR10/Evil, i hope im not doing my job because what should make me able to do it, is bypassed by a feat all my enemies get automatically.
    I have no idea what you're talking about.

    Rallying Cause: im supposed to be a Land Battleship, not a field commander.
    You're supposed to be a holy warrior for the forces of Good, whatever that entails. Also, as mentioned, it's from the Dead Levels article. This particular ability isn't supposed to boost power, in fact, it's supposed to fill in a dead level without having a noticeable impact on the game's power-level. As said by Kolja Raven Liquette:

    This article offers minor special abilities that fill the normal "dead levels" of each core character class. These abilities have been chosen to complement the thematic elements of each class and assist in roleplaying wherever possible. They are meant to be more "flavorful" than "powerful" while also giving players something to anticipate at each level, regardless of whichever class they choose to play. These dead level abilities should not be considered a fix or patch for the core character classes.

    Remove Disease: Mercies are way better. and Mercies suck
    Honestly I didn't include the mercies for the opposite reason. The fact that all mercies known apply when LoHing seemed a bit too much to me.

    Bonus Feats: You seem to have just picked a list of feats that seemed to go well with mounted combat. If you hadnt already taken them already, you arent going to by then.
    God forbid you use the bonus feats to complete some of the feat chains quicker than you'd otherwise be able to; for example if non-human, 1: Mounted Combat, 3: Ride-by Attack, 6: Paladin's Mount and Trample. Otherwise you'd be waiting to level 9 to complete that chain.

    Also explain to me how Tower Shield Proficiency works with mounted combat.

    No turn undead: About the only saving grace of the PHB paladin. and you remove it.
    Would have been changed to Channel Positive Energy anyway.

    Spellcasting: -4 spells per day at lvl 20 over PhB paladin, -2 per day over PF paladin
    Meh? I'm looking at the SRD right now, and the spell progression is identical. Let me check Pathfinder...

    ...okay, Pathfinder grants more spells per day. So I'll up the Paladin to have the spell progression from Pathfinder.

    But your SRD-Fu is weak, it would seem.

    Anyway. So now that you've gotten your condescension quota filled for the day, any suggestions of what to *add*? Remember that I want Channel Energy to remain the Cleric's schtick.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-09 at 01:55 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    I don't really want to sound like patronizing, but you should be wary about posting stuff from Dandwiki.com. Not everyone likes that site, particularly because it has no clear, unambiguous, bleeding obvious distinction between actual material and homebrew. Though, to be fair, it's just that there's an oddles better side that can handle that.

    Thus: just so that people have a second opinion about charge...

    Now, addressing the Paladin stuff:
    One thing is to have MAD, another thing is to have good MAD. A Paladin needs, just to work, a 14+ in Strength to deal decent damage, a 14+ in Constitution to have decent HP and Fortitude, a 12+ in Wisdom to cast at least the first two tiers of spells, and 14+ in Charisma to use many of its abilities. You'll have to consider which of the four is more important, though you have a saving throw in that Wisdom shouldn't be higher than 14 (because of how spells are organized). Making it depend on Dex for initiative, Reflex saves and ranged attack rolls AND Int for skill points is just insulting. Paladins have bad MAD because the amount of things that can be ascribed to each stat aren't enough. To explain it better: a Paladin needs 4 stats to work. Wisdom has some secondary benefits (high Will saves), but other than that, you really don't need it...except you have spells to worry about. Without their spells, Paladins would suffer quite a bit. Charisma, a stat that's often needless, is used for the bonus to attack rolls on smites, the healing portion of Lay on Hands, the bonus to saves, and...well, that's about it. Yet, the bonus on saves is just spectacularly good, so you'll want a high score there. Reducing MAD is necessary for the Paladin, by choosing which scores are the most important without forcing the rest. In this case, going Strength, Constitution and Wisdom isn't a bad idea, because you're nullifying some of the bad MAD the Paladin has by removing one of the scores they need and collapsing the abilities that used said score into others. I would recommend choosing between Wis and Cha and focusing pretty well there, but I see you've settled for Wisdom in any case.

    Note what PF did to Smite. That, IMO, cannot be called a Smite; a Mark or a Judgment, maybe, but not a Smite. Smites are meant to be sudden and deadly. The 3.5 version of Smite Evil isn't: the damage at 1st level is piddling (1 extra point of damage) and only gets moderately decent at 20th level (20 points), but only works with one attack within the round, and only as a standard action, whereas having the chance for two or even three successful attacks within the round could easily overpower smite damage. Raising base Smite damage goes a long way towards making it useful. Heck, even adding Charisma (or Wisdom!) makes for a decent boost. Even then, it's just good for one attack (unless you multiply that burst damage quite a bit). Maybe making it a modification to an attack could be nice enough, as you could make it part of a full attack, as part of an AoO or even as part of a free attack. Still, it could work nicely as a standard action ability (or as part of a charge), with a slight boost.

    As for Blessed Weapon...I think toapat just overshot the concern. Bless Weapon got you that 1 level earlier. Certainly, it can be dispelled, but the ability itself shouldn't cause much concern up until latter levels, where punching DR/good becomes necessary (mostly when fighting evil outsiders more often) and even then only if those creatures just happen to have a dispelling aura or dispelling punches or something along those lines.

    One concern I *do* have is the halved caster level. Replace it. Please. At least make it as PF does (class level -3). Paladins don't deserve to have one-eighth of their spellcasting abilities shoved as half-spellcasting. They'll never have enough potential to overcome full spellcasters with half their spells and a portion of the caster level, but it makes some of the spells much, much more useful (say, Greater Magic Weapon for example). While at it: do that to the why does the Ranger lacks spellcasting?

    As for the Paladin bonus feats...I don't see how they focus towards mounted combat (only 6 of the 26 bonus feats are mount-worthy, and that's less than one-fourth of the feat list). That said...it's kinda lackluster, but what can be said about the feat list in Core? There's a few decent ones: Brothers in Arms (mostly, but it only works with...say, where's Combat Reflexes? That means characters are limited ONLY to one AoO per round? Oh, there's Lightning Reflexes...but that's mostly 2 AoO per round, instead of 1+Dex or 3+ uses of AoO), Extra Smiting, Paladin Mount, Power Attack, (new) Toughness...then there's the oddity of Great Fortitude (Fast Healing 1? It's dangerously close to "feat tax", even if it's only up to half your HP). Still, it could have a few more, just for differing builds. What about...say, Improved Shield Bash? Paladins are expected, at times, to use sword and shield. Or, maybe, Armor Specialization (Paladins are expected to wear armor at ALL times, particularly heavy armor).

    Monk: I'm not sure, but it looks pretty similar to jiriku's one. Probably an earlier version, or perhaps one from which Jiriku based his. Empty Mind, the uses of Abundant Step based on Wisdom modifier, the bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble checks equal to the fast movement bonus... His is usually between the first four pages of the Homebrew Design forum, so it's no wonder why it's so familiar. You just made it slightly less MAD by enabling Dexterity for a few things instead of Strength (take note of that when handling the Paladin's MAD, as the choice between Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls makes for a nice Dex/Wis/Con class, which is not bad MAD at all). Then again, there's a few things missing (jiriku's Monk uses Wisdom a lot, and he adds Wisdom to attack and damage rolls, not replaces it).

    Fighter: for all the goodies you gave the Fighter, I feel so, so irked that only the Fighter gets them. I'll tell ya: much like Ziegander, I've also worked with feat retooling, but I consider that ALL martial classes should have the benefit, with the Fighter getting the most of it (and the fastest, of course). It's great that the Fighter gets an improvement to Weapon Focus, but...why would I take Weapon Focus on a Paladin, or a Ranger, if I'll get the same lousy benefit? I don't see it as a motivation to "dip Fighter levels", as you'd have to make a solid dunk to get most of the benefits (aside from nu-Toughness), but some classes could get a great benefit if they had only a lesser version of it. I mean...even half levels in one class treated as Fighter levels would do nice, as they'll never, ever reach the Fighter's status but at least will do some nice fighting. That goes double or even TRIPLE with the Ranger, as they, once again, lost their spellcasting and gained nothing decent to replace it. At least Paladins have their smite and Barbarians their rage, but Favored Enemy is pretty meh if you don't think your 20 levels in advance, and even then the bonus is just too small.

    Ranger: Favored Enemy is still too weak: at most, you can get a +10 on one enemy or +6 in two, +4 in four favored enemies, or somewhere in between. A +10 may seem awesome, but...only if it belongs to the right favored enemy. Woe if the DM adds variety to monsters, particularly since once you choose that, it's forever and may not be changed. If you're not too hot about the spellcasting, at least consider making Favored Enemy much, much better. The other abilities, IMO, are a bit lackluster: the Wild Traits are borderline between "nice" and "meh" (scent, climb and/or swim speed, acute hearing, improved sight are very nice abilities, but a +4 to a single skill and the equivalent of skill mastery isn't); Woodland Hunter is pointless (by that level, food and water is almost a non-necessity, what with Create Food and Water, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, and even a Ring of Sustenance), Perceptive Tracker grants a very small benefit by that level, Seasoned Explorer by that level is pretty much pointless (you'll probably have a great way to ignore severe weather, even if it's Endure Elements only), Camouflage is pointless with Snake's Prowl and there's no use on getting the Combat Style Mastery for two-weapon fighting (note that you eliminated Greater Two-Weapon Fighting...)

    Cleric: interesting way to handle the class. I'd allow, if anything, a minor list of spells that all Clerics can prepare (maybe Bless, Bane, Consecrate, Desecrate, Hallow, Unhallow...) in addition to their domains, because a total of 28-35 spells seems not enough, and some spells are missing (i.e. they aren't present in the domain feats). With the overlapping on many of the domains (I've seen Virtue at least twice), perhaps some revision to the spells is in order.

    Druid: alright, lemme get this straight...the Druid is now a half-spellcaster, so no problem there. The best thing that a Ranger had was its spellcasting (bar nothing), so you took Ranger spellcasting and gave it to the Druid.

    Well, the druid is now Tier 3, but the Ranger is Tier 5. Aside from the focus on tracking, favored enemy and the Wild Traits, is there a reason why I should take Ranger when I could just take Druid/Fighter and call it a Ranger? Druids get Wild Empathy, the Survival skill, Woodland Stride, and better stuff a Ranger would get, they keep their Animal Companion thanks to a feat, and they get from Fighter the feats that they lack from the Ranger's Combat Style. They'll probably lose Scent (Scent spell, tho), climb and swim speeds (wild shape! Oh, they lose their spells, but they get to be already pumped up animals so it's no biggie, and it's Ranger spellcasting so it's not like they lose anything by wildshaping!), acute hearing (Listening Lorecall is far, far better, or Embrace the Wild at 1st level) and improved sight (that I'll admit is a bit tough to beat), but they get much, much more (Swift Haste, Longstrider, Cure Light/Moderate Wounds, Barkskin, Resist Energy, Freedom of Movement, Hunter's Mercy, Listening Lorecall, Find the Gap, etc.) Consider this, as the Ranger has been heavily and needlessly nerfed so that the Druid could be nerfed, and that's a bad idea on how to balance classes. I wouldn't worry much about Dispel Magic being a threat, though, considering that there are ways to resist pretty hefty dispelling checks and unless they can do it alongside something else, the enemy just lost a turn. A trap is another way, but a trap to Dispel Magic is mean to everyone, not just former Tier 1s.

    You may also consider revising the spell section; there's a vestige from Animal Companion still there, which you turned into a Feat which means you really don't need to have that quip anymore. It's mostly cleaning up stuff.

    Sorcerer: Call it a gut feeling, but Sorcerer seems a bit TOO powerful... Charisma to saving throws, Spell Resistance (while at it; haven't considered adding the Barbarian spell resistance? At least as a Rage power?), casts more spells, learns some of the Cleric's spells (I understand that Clerics no longer are the uber-healers, but that's a lousy explanation as to why the nerfed Wizards and the boosted Sorcerers need them; the Bard [through spellsongs], the Druid and the Paladin already get them, so that's enough healing), can recover spells that cannot punch through Spell Resistance, retain some of the broken spells (Polymorph, Limited Wish)... While the forced specialization of Wizards is manageable (it's mostly the same as with the Psion, except that only a small set of spells, which includes Limited Wish, are available to everyone), the openness of Sorcerers isn't. Sure, there's no more Gate, but Planar Binding is pretty darn close, and Plane Shift is pretty darn close to Astral Projection. The only reason the Sorcerer was not Tier 1 was because it couldn't do the same things as the Wizard could, but considering now...they're dangerously close to Tier 1 as they stand.

    Feats (general): Giving it a once-over to the feat list, it's just close to be extremely fitting. Some of the fat was removed (the skill-based feats), encompassed into a few choice ones (Alertness, Beastmaster, Great Acrobat) and Skill Focus. The former are hilariously good (Alertness for collapsing Quick Draw and Initiative, Beastmaster for the +1 to NA), but Skill Focus still lacks the thing needed to shine (perhaps if you granted that chosen skill as a class skill for all classes, limited to untrained skills only). Weapon Finesse could be used to add Dex to damage rolls, as while Monks no longer need that, Rogues do. Weapon Focus is only good to the Fighter and no one else (it still holds the same lack of return to the investment as the original except for the Fighter). even though the Fighter gets more than it invested on (the attack rerolls can be Fighter-exclusive and no one would complain). The benefit of Snatch Arrows for the Fighter is great, but a tad late: I wouldn't complain having that at 10th level, though perhaps I would if too low. Reflexive Strike is really weak, holding the same problem as Mobility had (the bonus only applies at certain occasions), even if it scales: a bonus to damage or perhaps an added bonus to it (maybe treat enemies as flat-footed when using attacks of opportunity? Would work wonders for Rogues) would suffice. Magical Aptitude is a tad TOO powerful for a feat, and there's virtually no reason why not to take it, particularly if you can have Alter Self at 9th level at least once per day, and then twice and thrice per day at latter levels. It also assists a bit on healing (choose Cure Light Wounds as your 1st level spell, you can cure yourself or others up to 4 times per day). My worry comes from the exploitable nature of free spells. The "Improved [maneuver]" series of spells lack some parity: Improved Feint is awesome, Improved Grapple is nice, Improved Trip is amazing, the rest...are boring. I mean, Improved Disarm could have had...I dunno, treating the enemy as flat-footed for the next attack (you disarm him, so he loses some of his defenses) or making an extra attack by aiming the disarmed weapon to a nearby opponent. Improved Sunder could provide another benefit as well, but since you're treating sunder as the 3.5 version, there's little need to get it (you don't want to lose your loot, after all...) And there's no reason to take Improved Overrun, as it consumes your actions for the round in order to push through a wall of meat. Oh, and Improved Bull Rush only works well for Fighters, as they get Dungeon Crasher; the rest shouldn't even need to apply for it.

    Maneuvers: I think these could have a change. Sunder, particularly, should allow for "disabling" equipment rather than outright breaking it, unless a broken item can have its enchantments repaired (the main reason why nobody ever uses sunder, and why sunder is loathed as much as Mordenkainen's/Mage's Disjunction). Disarm loses steam after the first few levels as most monsters have natural weapons. Overrun...I honestly never used overrun in my gaming time, and I doubt many others do. Revising this should be one of your concerns. Also; planning on making the PF maneuvers backwards-compatible with 3.5?

    That's about as much as I can revise in about an hour and a half. It's certainly a lot of material, so doing a painstakingly long revision WILL take time, and some things may be lost if you don't check the document (BTW, is it open for people without a Google account?)
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder.
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    I don't really want to sound like patronizing, but you should be wary about posting stuff from Dandwiki.com. Not everyone likes that site
    Roger. Though their charge article is, I think, identical in either case; and in any case the point is that you don't need to be mounted to charge.

    On MAD
    My personal philosophy is that each class should depend on at least 2-3 ability scores, ideally 3. Thus, for example, splitting most spellcasters amongst two ability scores.

    Like I said, I understand the MAD problem with Paladins; melee classes that are trying to be casters as well, are just going to be MAD by definition. I also recognize that I didn't do anything to fix that, though (except I suppose in a peripheral way eliminating the mount cut down on the need for DEX). Problem.

    Is changing all abilities to be WIS-based enough insofar as MAD is concerned, or should I do something else? As the Sorcerer shows I'm willing to experiment with CON-based spellcasting, for example...

    [Smiting]
    Hmm...

    Smite Evil (Su): A number of times per day equal to 3 + the Paladin's Wisdom modifier, a Paladin may attempt to smite the evil forces surrounding her. Activating Smite Evil is an immediate action that can be performed once per round. Once activated, the Paladin adds his or her Wisdom modifier + his or her Paladin level to all attacks he or she makes in the next round, but only against Evil targets. Should the Paladin attempt to Smite neutral or good targets, the Paladin deals no extra damage, and the Paladin may not attempt to Smite any further targets for the rest of the round.

    WIS + Paladin level seems like a small boost, but this version can be used with each attack in a full attack, plus any opportunity attacks. So theoretically a 20th level paladin with WIS 14 could deal, for example, +110 damage to a single evil target on a full attack plus opportunity attack, or +22 damage to multiple targets. To say nothing of, for example, Cleave.

    Rogue do good?

    As for Blessed Weapon...I think toapat just overshot the concern. Bless Weapon got you that 1 level earlier. Certainly, it can be dispelled, but the ability itself shouldn't cause much concern up until latter levels, where punching DR/good becomes necessary (mostly when fighting evil outsiders more often) and even then only if those creatures just happen to have a dispelling aura or dispelling punches or something along those lines.
    Any thoughts on improvement?

    One concern I *do* have is the halved caster level. Replace it. Please. At least make it as PF does (class level -3).
    I'll do the Pathfinder thing.

    While at it: do that to the why does the Ranger lack spellcasting?
    Most rangers I think of in fantasy don't really cast spells. I'm referring to characters, here - Aragorn, Drizzt, and so on. Honestly when I first picked up the PHB (I was reading D&D novels before I actually started playing the game) and saw that Rangers get spells, I was seriously confused, and it's just something that's never sat well with me for some reason.

    What about...say, Improved Shield Bash? Paladins are expected, at times, to use sword and shield. Or, maybe, Armor Specialization (Paladins are expected to wear armor at ALL times, particularly heavy armor).
    Whoa, yikes, how did I miss those? Yeah, I'm adding them. Any further suggestions?

    Monk: I'm not sure, but it looks pretty similar to jiriku's one. Probably an earlier version, or perhaps one from which Jiriku based his.
    That's it! Thank you, I'll be adding credit where it's due as soon as I've finished this responce.

    Empty Mind, the uses of Abundant Step based on Wisdom modifier, the bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble checks equal to the fast movement bonus... His is usually between the first four pages of the Homebrew Design forum, so it's no wonder why it's so familiar. You just made it slightly less MAD by enabling Dexterity for a few things instead of Strength (take note of that when handling the Paladin's MAD, as the choice between Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls makes for a nice Dex/Wis/Con class, which is not bad MAD at all). Then again, there's a few things missing (jiriku's Monk uses Wisdom a lot, and he adds Wisdom to attack and damage rolls, not replaces it).
    Probably an earlier version, then. I don't remember tweaking or changing the class at all after I stole it. I'll hunt down the modern version and make all appropriate changes.

    I don't see it as a motivation to "dip Fighter levels", as you'd have to make a solid dunk to get most of the benefits (aside from nu-Toughness), but some classes could get a great benefit if they had only a lesser version of it.
    That's...kind of the idea, actually. I wanted to actively discourage dipping into Fighter just for feat benefits, as while arguing over feats with someone a few months back they kept pointing out that the problem with Fighter-only feats is that people will dip into Fighter just long enough to achieve it, then leave because now they get the benefit thanks to their piddling number of Fighter levels.

    I mean...even half levels in one class treated as Fighter levels would do nice, as they'll never, ever reach the Fighter's status but at least will do some nice fighting. That goes double or even TRIPLE with the Ranger, as they, once again, lost their spellcasting and gained nothing decent to replace it. At least Paladins have their smite and Barbarians their rage, but Favored Enemy is pretty meh if you don't think your 20 levels in advance, and even then the bonus is just too small.
    So the Paladin, Ranger, and maybe Barbarian should get something like...

    Combat Training (Ex): For the purposes of gaining special benefits with Fighter bonus feats, you are considered to be a Fighter with a level equal to one-half your class level.

    Or maybe class level -3, making it almost analagous to spells.

    use on getting the Combat Style Mastery for two-weapon fighting (note that you eliminated Greater Two-Weapon Fighting...)
    Whoops, need to change that. So in addition to Combat Training (above) and refining the weapon mastery trees, I'll start digging through the forums and the wiki and the splatbooks, et all, to see about fixing this class.

    Cleric: interesting way to handle the class. I'd allow, if anything, a minor list of spells that all Clerics can prepare (maybe Bless, Bane, Consecrate, Desecrate, Hallow, Unhallow...) in addition to their domains, because a total of 28-35 spells seems not enough, and some spells are missing (i.e. they aren't present in the domain feats). With the overlapping on many of the domains (I've seen Virtue at least twice), perhaps some revision to the spells is in order.
    The most significant overlap is in 0-level spells, since there just aren't enough to go around while still thematically fitting with each domain. I've been considering some ability that lets clerics cast duplicate spells at +1 CL per duplicate spell, or else an additional time per day per duplicate spell. Obviously not useful for the duplicate orisons (they're at-will anyway), but I'm not too worried about that since they're just orisons.

    By the way, the cleric may have a small spell list, but really it's only 1 spell behind a sorcerer at each level, except 0, 6th, and 7th. The sorcerer has more cantrips than the cleric has orisons (whatever), but the cleric has more 6th and 7th level spells than the sorcerer, and they can cast their spells only slightly less per day (Cleric is 7/7/7/7/6/5/4, Sorcerer is 7/7/7/7/7/7/5).

    I'm actually really married to the idea of Domain-only clerics (don't tell the Dead Levels article!), and don't want to include even a small universal Cleric list, per se...

    ...but I just had an idea for a sort of exchange program. A "Universal" domain that contains a number of spells (such as the ones you suggested). Each time you gain a new spell level, you can swap out spells from your Domains and replace them with spells from the "universal" domain. This would also simultaneously solve the duplicate spell problem...

    Well, the druid is now Tier 3, but the Ranger is Tier 5. Aside from the focus on tracking, favored enemy and the Wild Traits, is there a reason why I should take Ranger when I could just take Druid/Fighter and call it a Ranger? Druids get Wild Empathy, the Survival skill, Woodland Stride, and better stuff a Ranger would get, they keep their Animal Companion thanks to a feat,
    Just pointing out that Rangers can take the same feat and actually get the same animal companion (none of this half-druid-level crap).

    Oh, but the druid spellcasting will probably be changed so that druids are CL - 3, a la PF Paladin. Just for internal consistancy. Or does this do terrible things that I'm not aware of?

    Consider this, as the Ranger has been heavily and needlessly nerfed so that the Druid could be nerfed, and that's a bad idea on how to balance classes. I wouldn't worry much about Dispel Magic being a threat, though, considering that there are ways to resist pretty hefty dispelling checks and unless they can do it alongside something else, the enemy just lost a turn. A trap is another way, but a trap to Dispel Magic is mean to everyone, not just former Tier 1s.
    I'll be getting to work on the Ranger forthwith. For now, knowledge that the druid is now Tier-3 is enough.

    Sorcerer: Call it a gut feeling, but Sorcerer seems a bit TOO powerful... Charisma to saving throws, Spell Resistance (while at it; haven't considered adding the Barbarian spell resistance? At least as a Rage power?),
    That's...not a bad idea, actually.

    The only reason the Sorcerer was not Tier 1 was because it couldn't do the same things as the Wizard could, but considering now...they're dangerously close to Tier 1 as they stand.
    ...oops.

    Meh...I've gone through more versions of the Sorcerer than I care to count. I've always preferred it to the Wizard, but damned if I know how to add abilities to distinguish it from the Wizard without plunging into the whole Heritage idea (which is nifty but I don't want it to be emphasized if the player doesn't want to).

    Feats (general):
    I'll work on implementing each of the changes you mentioned.

    Maneuvers: I think these could have a change. Sunder, particularly, should allow for "disabling" equipment rather than outright breaking it, unless a broken item can have its enchantments repaired (the main reason why nobody ever uses sunder, and why sunder is loathed as much as Mordenkainen's/Mage's Disjunction). Disarm loses steam after the first few levels as most monsters have natural weapons. Overrun...I honestly never used overrun in my gaming time, and I doubt many others do. Revising this should be one of your concerns. Also; planning on making the PF maneuvers backwards-compatible with 3.5?
    I've actually never played Pathfinder, so the reason maneuver updates weren't included was due to me not being aware of them, as I haven't poured over that section of the OGC. However, I'll certainly give them a once-over and convert them backwards if they look enticing.

    That's about as much as I can revise in about an hour and a half. It's certainly a lot of material, so doing a painstakingly long revision WILL take time, and some things may be lost if you don't check the document (BTW, is it open for people without a Google account?)
    I...honestly don't know, actually. According to the program it says that it's open to anyone with the link, but tech-savvy I am not.

    EDIT: According to Google docs, "no sign in required."
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-09 at 09:51 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Nope, I just get redirected to Google Drive.
    Open the lid and snatch a homebrewed treat from Cookie's Jar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    Nope, I just get redirected to Google Drive.
    Hmm. Hang on a second...

    ...okay, changed it to "public on the web." As near as I can tell, anyone should now be able to view it.

    EDIT
    Having signed out of Google to double-check, I can now confirm that you should be able to see it.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Slight bump.

    Though I would also like to thank you both (honestly) for neither of you mentioning Tome of Battle. Yes, I have it. I also hate it overall, though I regularly plunder it for ideas.

    Again, thanks.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    My personal philosophy is that each class should depend on at least 2-3 ability scores, ideally 3. Thus, for example, splitting most spellcasters amongst two ability scores.

    Like I said, I understand the MAD problem with Paladins; melee classes that are trying to be casters as well, are just going to be MAD by definition. I also recognize that I didn't do anything to fix that, though (except I suppose in a peripheral way eliminating the mount cut down on the need for DEX). Problem.

    Is changing all abilities to be WIS-based enough insofar as MAD is concerned, or should I do something else? As the Sorcerer shows I'm willing to experiment with CON-based spellcasting, for example...
    I think I mentioned with the Monk how you can develop "good" MAD. Essentially, the Monk can use Dexterity for attack, damage rolls, initiative, Reflex saves and Dex checks; Constitution for Hit Points and Fortitude saves; Wisdom for Will saves, Wis-based skill checks and many of the Monk's special abilities.

    In that case, making the Paladin Str/Con/Wis is roughly similar, but could use a bit more. Right now, it seems that Wis>Con=Str, or in simpler terms, that Wisdom is very important for the Paladin now because of attack and damage when smiting, all saves (and Wisdom counts twice), spellcasting and some other spread out stuff; Strength is used for melee attack and damage rolls, Str checks and Str-based skill checks; Constitution determines Hit Points and Fort saves. It's still not enough, as while the incentives for Strength and Constitution are there, there's not enough incentives to invest on those instead of, say, Int (Combat Expertise means better AC and opens up stuff such as Parry and Riposte which makes for a strong defense-focused character) or Dex (while heavy armor dents Dex a bit, it still works for Reflex saves which are the lowest of all the saves AND initiative). It's right on the middle, and only very slightly on the bad end: do a creative work on the ability scores and you reach the right point, but exceed a bit and then you overdo it. I'd say that making Paladins use Con instead of Dex for the Dex bonus to AC not only reinforces Constitution, but makes Dex less desirable, and it's both just a little change AND existing (if Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest speak of it).

    Though, IMO? I'd go (and went!) for Str/Con/Cha for Paladin, but it seems you're pushing Sorcerer to that.

    Smite Evil (Su): A number of times per day equal to 3 + the Paladin's Wisdom modifier, a Paladin may attempt to smite the evil forces surrounding her. Activating Smite Evil is an immediate action that can be performed once per round. Once activated, the Paladin adds his or her Wisdom modifier + his or her Paladin level to all attacks he or she makes in the next round, but only against Evil targets. Should the Paladin attempt to Smite neutral or good targets, the Paladin deals no extra damage, and the Paladin may not attempt to Smite any further targets for the rest of the round.

    WIS + Paladin level seems like a small boost, but this version can be used with each attack in a full attack, plus any opportunity attacks. So theoretically a 20th level paladin with WIS 14 could deal, for example, +110 damage to a single evil target on a full attack plus opportunity attack, or +22 damage to multiple targets. To say nothing of, for example, Cleave.

    Rogue do good?
    It's not bad, but I wouldn't call it a "smite". That's rhetoric, though: it's mostly the same problem as with the Pathfinder Paladin's smite in that it's not "sudden", but it's still a sudden buff (6 seconds, basically, which is neither instantaneous nor prolonged enough).

    Any thoughts on improvement?
    Hard to improve, if only because of positioning. Had the Blessed Weapons ability been a 7th level ability, it would have fit nicely with Aura of Faith at 14th, meaning that you first improve your own weapon, then those of the others. That goes without saying that, aside from smite, there's only very little damage the paladin can deal compared to other classes: barbarian's rage lasts for a good while, Fighters get the stack of bonuses to damage, Rogues get sneak attack, Monks get flurry of blows + Dex to damage + free weapon enhancements, Rangers get...erm, nothing unless you manage to hit favored enemies, so at least the Paladin is forward on one of the martial classes. I feel tempted to a +1d6 extra damage on all attacks against evil creatures (stacks with smite) and weapon is treated as good alignment, but it seems the easy way out. Making it automatically confirm critical hits makes Bless Weapon worthless (at least on the Paladin), and it's still too much for the Holy weapon equivalent.

    My best recommendation is to collapse and condense everything nicely. To explain better: assume Blessed Weapons moved to 7th level. As a base bonus, it makes any weapon you wield good-aligned. By expending one daily use of your Smite Evil, the weapon temporarily deals 1d6 points of damage against evil creatures and lasts for a specific number of rounds (I'd say half level + Wis modifier); essentially, you're sacrificing the benefit of Smite for a lasting effect. Come Aura of Faith at 14th level, and you provide that bonus to all characters within range of aura by spending a daily use of Smite (potentially increasing your damage to 2d6). That way, you show a tie between Blessed Weapons and Aura of Faith, Blessed Weapons becomes slightly more powerful, and Aura of Faith becomes an awesome buff (though it makes the Blessing of the Righteous spell in PHB II a bit pointless, unless you allow it to stack; note that such spell is a 4th level spell, which fits exactly with Aura of Faith).

    Problem is: it conflicts with the location of Righteous Cause, and with two benefits there (2nd level spells and Righteous Cause) there, adding one more ability overloads the level, and that's not good. It also screws the positioning of the other Righteous Cause abilities. I could make a case for why Righteous Cause can be safely removed so that Blessed Weapons can be moved, but that leaves 5th level, 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th level as dead levels (and nothing irks me more than dead levels in a nifty mathematical progression). It's that conflict that doesn't allow me to think in a decent exchange, though technically keeping Blessed Weapon in 5th level follows a mathematical progression (you only miss an "aura" at 2nd level, but you could count Blessed Weapons as a "personal aura" and fit it just right).

    Most rangers I think of in fantasy don't really cast spells. I'm referring to characters, here - Aragorn, Drizzt, and so on. Honestly when I first picked up the PHB (I was reading D&D novels before I actually started playing the game) and saw that Rangers get spells, I was seriously confused, and it's just something that's never sat well with me for some reason.
    Oddly enough, it conflicts with years of D&D history up until 4th Edition. The first Ranger was capable of casting spells from the Druid spell list up to 3rd level and Magic-User spells from 2nd level. Whether a Ranger kept the ability to cast magic or not depends mostly on how based off D&D the class is or isn't. But, I can't say much if that's your choice.

    Whoa, yikes, how did I miss those? Yeah, I'm adding them. Any further suggestions?
    Off the top of my head, aside from those I mentioned? Not many, really. I could say Combat Expertise just for Parry and Riposte (since it allows the Paladin to fight defensively and take advantage of high AC for counterattacks), but the Int requirement really blows it up.

    That's...kind of the idea, actually. I wanted to actively discourage dipping into Fighter just for feat benefits, as while arguing over feats with someone a few months back they kept pointing out that the problem with Fighter-only feats is that people will dip into Fighter just long enough to achieve it, then leave because now they get the benefit thanks to their piddling number of Fighter levels.
    It's the problem I find with Fighter (and, even though I know you hate it, the reason why I consider Warblade to be superior despite not recognizing the superiority of Swordsage over Monk or, heaven forbid, Crusader over Paladin); aside from the feats, it gets little else. The Fighter has to have something so unique, that nothing and no one else can get. However, it has to be something that would make the Fighter the only viable choice to go melee, either. Most fixes I've seen tend to have that problem, amongst others: they make other classes pointless, or add so much stuff they make going melee entirely pointless. Effective Fighter levels goes a long way to fix that, but the Fighter still needs something that's its own, and the Warblade more than just stole that from the class. There is a way to handle it, but I don't think people would stomach having a class that essentially grants free racial abilities (imagine the Fighter giving the racial benefit that boosts Aid Another to +3 and stacks with feats that grant that, or Powerful/Slight Build, or Pounce, as Fighter-exclusive abilities, even if they could be shared with other classes...)

    So the Paladin, Ranger, and maybe Barbarian should get something like...

    Combat Training (Ex): For the purposes of gaining special benefits with Fighter bonus feats, you are considered to be a Fighter with a level equal to one-half your class level.

    Or maybe class level -3, making it almost analagous to spells.
    I'd tweak it based on how distant they are from the Fighter class instead of a fixed treat.

    I.E.: the Barbarian is pretty close to the Fighter but has its own set of abilities, so it may be class level -3. Paladin has spellcasting, so it has to have a tougher one: class level -5 (and thus, you'd be treated as a 1st level Fighter at 6th level, at the very moment you get your bonus feats by means of class). The Ranger NEEDS some support, so I wouldn't protest for class level -1 or class level -2. You could make some of the Rogue traits grant a cumulative "each time you take this, you're considered as a Fighter of 4 levels higher" (for Swashbuckler-esque rogues) and maybe even for the Monk, but that's going too much.

    Whoops, need to change that. So in addition to Combat Training (above) and refining the weapon mastery trees, I'll start digging through the forums and the wiki and the splatbooks, et all, to see about fixing this class.
    Making Combat Style Mastery its own ability would definitely boost the class. That way, you don't get a bonus feat for free, but a reward for truly mastering the class. Drow of the Underdark has a nice PrC that couples a combat style with a specific weapon (TWF with Spiked Chain and Archery with Hand Crossbow), and the final abilities were pretty impressive (use Spiked Chain in one hand, or Manyshot in conjunction with Hand Crossbows). I don't tell you to add that, but consider how the combat style turned into something else than just free bonus feats.

    Also, you may want to find over the 'Net the additional combat styles for Rangers released in Dragon Magazine, or those released in Pathfinder (which have a sort of overlap), to add even MORE options for Ranger.

    That still makes it a long way to work the Ranger into a deadly individual, but it's a good start nonetheless (between the Combat Styles and the Wild Traits, you can make a lot of nice builds, but the class still lacks that punch to excel). Reworking Favored Enemies goes a long way into making the Ranger viable, but I'll let you handle that, or else I'll force my ideas on you and I want you to find ideas on your own.

    I'm actually really married to the idea of Domain-only clerics (don't tell the Dead Levels article!), and don't want to include even a small universal Cleric list, per se...

    ...but I just had an idea for a sort of exchange program. A "Universal" domain that contains a number of spells (such as the ones you suggested). Each time you gain a new spell level, you can swap out spells from your Domains and replace them with spells from the "universal" domain. This would also simultaneously solve the duplicate spell problem...
    I'd consider raiding the Ardent a bit further. The "Domain-only" Cleric is essentially a magic-using Ardent (or rather, the Ardent was supposed to really be a power-using Cleric, but you'll probably get the allegory), and the Ardent already has a good selection of mantles (7) compared to the Cleric (5), with the caveat about choosing powers, and the primary/secondary mantles priority when choosing powers.

    Just pointing out that Rangers can take the same feat and actually get the same animal companion (none of this half-druid-level crap).

    Oh, but the druid spellcasting will probably be changed so that druids are CL - 3, a la PF Paladin. Just for internal consistancy. Or does this do terrible things that I'm not aware of?
    Not really, but considering they already lost their spellcasting, having at least 3 points more than the Paladin really won't do anything. Particularly since it'll force them to be a bit more conscious about Wildshaping, and they're not as strong in melee combat unless they 'shape, which means their spellcasting ability is gone.

    Also: while the Ranger will get the same animal companion as the Druid, at least the Druid can buff it up. The Ranger will have a decent animal companion, but it'll be much like having another ranger in your team, instead of the pet/master mechanic; particularly with the idea of combat style + wild traits (think of Wolf having the "trip" combat style and the "scent" wild trait, the Bear having the "grapple" combat style, and the Lion having the "pounce & rake" combat style).

    I'll be getting to work on the Ranger forthwith. For now, knowledge that the druid is now Tier-3 is enough.
    Don't trust me on that. I just...mentioned it, as a point to compare. The Ranger definitely needs some help because it technically can't do as well as other classes (re:Druid) on its own turf, so it falls into Tier 5. The Druid can cast well, fight well and survive well (and potentially make a decent face) so it gets real close to Tier 3.

    Compare to Cleric (it can do as much as its Domains allow, but it's still dangerously close to Tier 2), Wizard (limited by school, but with the Expanded Knowledge feat tax it can reach Tier 2) and Sorcerer (still Tier 2, and dangerously close to Tier 1 now that it can heal and has nearly uninterrupted spellcasting ability plus more survival traits).

    Speaking of the Sorcerer...

    ...oops.

    Meh...I've gone through more versions of the Sorcerer than I care to count. I've always preferred it to the Wizard, but damned if I know how to add abilities to distinguish it from the Wizard without plunging into the whole Heritage idea (which is nifty but I don't want it to be emphasized if the player doesn't want to).
    Raid the Warlock for ideas. Unless you want an Invocation-using class of your own (planning to expand a bit further), but usually the terms "warlock" and "sorcerer" tend to relate in fantasy. There's no need to have heritages, but their essentially free access to spells really does a good number on what you can do with the class.

    I've actually never played Pathfinder, so the reason maneuver updates weren't included was due to me not being aware of them, as I haven't poured over that section of the OGC. However, I'll certainly give them a once-over and convert them backwards if they look enticing.
    Try and check Dirty Trick while at it. It's somewhat minor, but it gives some parity to classes such as Fighters and Rogues in that it allows them to blind, deafen or essentially debuff the enemy if only for 1 turn. Surely not the Paladin's plate, but definitely one for savvy Fighters and Rogues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Though I would also like to thank you both (honestly) for neither of you mentioning Tome of Battle. Yes, I have it. I also hate it overall, though I regularly plunder it for ideas.

    Again, thanks.
    I have it. I like it. I like it a lot, by the way.

    However, when someone asks about Monks or Paladins, I refrain from mentioning "use Unarmed Swordsage, it's what Monk wanted to do and better", and the term "Crusader is modded Paladin" is dangerously close to become a Berserk Button, as I have the distinct belief that the Paladin, the Divine Mind, the Soulborn and the Crusader can co-exist...it just happens that the earlier three classes need some buffer to make them better, and the Paladin a distinctive buffer to make it different from the Cleric.

    However, I'll be frank: I find difficult that one Fighter fix can beat the Warblade. That doesn't mean I let anyone try, and if I see something interesting, I won't hesitate into supporting and assisting the 'brewer on it, because my beliefs are not theirs and because, just because, they maybe hit the jackpot and push the Fighter into that border where they can exist in coordination with the Warblade and have no problems.

    The book is well done, but while I have it available for any of my players to use, and while I don't mind using it now and then (or raiding it for ideas), I don't push it to everyone just because I understand not everyone likes the idea. Besides: unless the 'brewer asks for it...
    Retooler of D&D 3.5 content. See here for more.
    Now with a comprehensive guide for 3.5 Paladin players porting to Pathfinder.
    On Lawful Good:
    Quote Originally Posted by firebrandtoluc View Post
    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    So far initial viewing of the stuff, a word of advice.

    Remember, part of the reason classes are low tier, is because they lacked stuff they could use or do. Spell Casters didn't merely become Tier 1 because they could cast spells, they became Tier 1 because virtually every single book printed, added new spells to their selection. while physical types had to rely on the odd equipment or feat addition that synced well and isn't horrible.

    The Paladin's Turn undead is actually EXTREMELY useful to both the party and the Paladin. Although it's at a reduced effectiveness compared to a Cleric, it's useful because it helps spare the Cleric some effort when turning undead. It's also important, because Paladins are the ones who typically make good use of Divine feats, which by their very nature, require the use of Turn undead attempts.

    Always be wary of taking things away from a class. You can cause much more damage to a class by taking abilities away from it, then you can by giving it to them.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    A note: I'm listening to the soundtrack to Chess right now. For some reason, it was so very incredibly hard to stop myself from posting this entire responce to the tune of "The Soviet Machine."

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Remember, part of the reason classes are low tier, is because they lacked stuff they could use or do. Spell Casters didn't merely become Tier 1 because they could cast spells, they became Tier 1 because virtually every single book printed, added new spells to their selection. while physical types had to rely on the odd equipment or feat addition that synced well and isn't horrible.
    I am aware.

    Having said that, all of the problems with 3.5 ultimately start in three places: the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. They're excellent books full of wonderful ideas and mechanics. They also have more holes than swiss cheese. It has been proven, time and again, that if, say, a 20th-level straight Fighter is given access to literally any and every WotC-published book to build whatever he wants, he will still lose, hands down, every time to a 20th-level Wizard who is limited strictly to Core.

    The goal of the Rebuild is to try and start plugging those holes. Start from the beginning, and work my way outwards. For now, assume that everything exists in a vacuum of splatbooks. There is only the PHB, DMG, MM, and the above document.

    The Paladin's Turn undead is actually EXTREMELY useful to both the party and the Paladin. Although it's at a reduced effectiveness compared to a Cleric, it's useful because it helps spare the Cleric some effort when turning undead. It's also important, because Paladins are the ones who typically make good use of Divine feats, which by their very nature, require the use of Turn undead attempts.
    I get that, but as the Cleric has been changed to Channel Energy anyway, I'm just saying that even if I were to include a turn-like ability for the Paladin, it would have been changed to Channel Positive Energy anyway, a la Pathfinder. Besides which, I want to try my best at giving each class a schtick that only they can do, hence why the barbarian lost trap sense.

    Also, again: Core, vacuum, etc.

    Always be wary of taking things away from a class. You can cause much more damage to a class by taking abilities away from it, then you can by giving it to them.
    This is true. The upshot is that thanks to how messed-up Core is balance-wise, it's practically impossible to do too much damage, and I can be fairly liberal with adding on new abilities to the classes that need fixing.

    Bit by bit, the pieces fit, my new monstrosity advances!
    Not one move that won't improve the old game's chances!
    I predict a stunning victory both on the board and off it!
    This will show Core that twinking should not profit!


    (Yeah, I couldn't stop myself)
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-10 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Spell Casters didn't merely become Tier 1 because they could cast spells, they became Tier 1 because virtually every single book printed, added new spells to their selection.
    Indeed. Which is why the first step in balancing them (for anything except Core-only) is to reduce the number of spells a single character can have available to them. (Ironically, the most broken classes are Core classes specifically in the presence of non-Core material. Without non-Core material, it's only a few overpowered spells and classes of spells that need to be depowered, and the core mechanic can stay.)
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2012-05-11 at 10:09 AM.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Indeed. Which is why the first step in balancing them (for anything except Core-only) is to reduce the number of spells a single character can have available to them. (Ironically, the most broken classes are Core classes specifically in the presence of non-Core material. Without non-Core material, it's only a few overpowered spells and classes of spells that need to be depowered, and the core mechanic can stay.)
    It's not "a few" spells. Literally every spell in Core needs to be reexamined. There are spells that invalidate entire classes' reasons for existing - knock and find traps, for example - without necessarily being broken in and of themselves.

    Note I said "reexamined," not "removed." The point is that when I finally get around to the spells section in detail, I'm not going to ignore any of them.

    Remember that tiers aren't based precisely on power, though that is a factor. They're based on options. A wizard isn't Tier 1 simply because of gate/wish abuse; a wizard is Tier 1 because they can fill literally every single party role by themselves, usually better than the class their replacing, unless that class is itself Tier 1 or 2.

    I once read a "VS" match that featured a Core-only wizard, without shapeshifting, who out-melee'd a fighter that had been designed specifically to kill wizards. Was the wizard overpowered? Not at all; in fact by any wizard estimation he was actually horribly underpowered. He was just a better fighter than the fighter.

    Then there's the druid, who has class features that invalidate entire other classes, namely three: Spellcasting (Tier-1 all by itself), wild shape (Tier-3 all by itself), and an animal companion (Tier-5 all by itself), each of which grant the druid gobs of options.

    Reducing Tier-1s and Tier-2s to Tier-3 or Tier-4 isn't just a matter of balancing planar binding and polymorph, it's also a matter of severely limiting the options available to them. The flipside to this, of course, is that going overboard here can turn them into unfun classes to play. Hence my love of the Dead Levels series of articles. Do the abilities in those articles do anything? Not typically. But they're fun and neat.

    Oh, that reminds me, I have another slew of updates to add.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-11 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    This may make your life a lot easier. This way, you can just create a few new words for it, and be done. If you still want vanacian casting, then you could just use these to create the spells. Very simple, very intuitive, very customizable. Will take tweaking, but not over some (really large number) spells individually.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xechon View Post
    This may make your life a lot easier. This way, you can just create a few new words for it, and be done. If you still want vanacian casting, then you could just use these to create the spells. Very simple, very intuitive, very customizable. Will take tweaking, but not over some (really large number) spells individually.
    Ah, no. No no no no no no no. No. I've seen a game of Mage: the Ascension played. Or for that matter, Slayer d20, which is similar.

    No, it's my experience that fully customizeable spells like this basically require a gentlemen's agreement between the DM and the PCs that the PCs won't break the game into tiny little pieces, and the DM won't...quit, because that's really all the DM can do. Since that's already a problem with Tier-1 and Tier-2 classes...

    No, when I said re-examine, I meant within the context of the current spell system.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-11 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    It's not "a few" spells. Literally every spell in Core needs to be reexamined. There are spells that invalidate entire classes' reasons for existing - knock and find traps, for example - without necessarily being broken in and of themselves.
    Open Lock and Search are not a Rogue's entire reason for existing, and forcing just one class to play Polish Mine Detector for the entire group is both unfair and frankly rather insulting. Why is the PC playing the role of redshirt?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Open Lock and Search are not a Rogue's entire reason for existing, and forcing just one class to play Polish Mine Detector for the entire group is both unfair and frankly rather insulting. Why is the PC playing the role of redshirt?
    The reason the rogue was created in the first place was to be the trapfinder and lock-picker. This is not to say that the rogue has to be the trapfinder and lock-picker, or that it is currently only in existance to be the trapfinder. But that was why it was created (i.e., it's reason for existing), way back in the halcyon days of 1977. '76. '74. Whenever it was D&D was first released.

    If other classes want to trapfind or open locks, that's fine, and if the rogue doesn't want to trapfind or burglarize, that's fine too. But you're looking at this from the wrong angle. The question isn't "why should I have to play the lock-picker if I don't want to," the question is "why should I bother playing the lock-picker when a wand of knock costs a piddling 4,500 gp and will invalidate all my skill ranks no later than 7th level and potentially could be in a 1st-level treasure pile?"

    If a rogue does want to find traps and open locks, they should be better at it than any other class, just as we expect the fighter to be the best fighter, for example.

    Further, this goes back to me wanting to give each class a schtick. While it'd be easy to call Sneak Attack a rogue's schtick, sneak attack is fundamentally just more damage, and conditional damage at that, so it doesn't really seem like enough. By removing knock and find traps, the rogue now has a schtick of its own.

    I might bring those two spells back in at a later date, but they will always be worse than whatever a rogue can achieve. Probably a 10-minute casting time or something.

    EDIT
    Also, on a dramatic note - a redshirt is a nameless guy (or girl) who dies five minutes into the episode in order to prove the situation is serious. Unless the DM is running Tomb of Horrors, this should not happen, and even then, the rogue is the best equipped to survive the Tomb, potential run-in with Acererak nonwithstanding.

    SECOND EDIT
    Also I find it funny that you're indignant about my take on the rogue class when I've mentioned it as traditionally my favorite class and, well, SEE signiture and screen name.

    Though recently the beguiler has been growing on me, but mostly because the next time I play rather than DM, I don't think I'll be able to stop myself from rolling up a beguiler named Trixie Lulamoon.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-11 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    It's not "a few" spells. Literally every spell in Core needs to be reexamined. There are spells that invalidate entire classes' reasons for existing - knock and find traps, for example - without necessarily being broken in and of themselves.
    Find Traps doesn't invalidate a class's reason for existing; in order to be as good at trapfinding as a rogue, a cleric with Find Traps needs to put as many points into search as a rogue would, is still slightly inferior, and can still only do it for less than an hour per day total unless he's really putting heavy resources into it. It's a backup, but isn't as good as the real thing.

    Knock is somewhat more of a concern, but once you count everything of that sort I think you'll end up with less than half a dozen plus the polymorph class.

    Remember that tiers aren't based precisely on power, though that is a factor. They're based on options.
    True, but if you have a lot of options strictly inferior to those who specialize in that area, you're not tier 1, but rather {looks up what bards are} tier 3, which is generally considered to be where a "normal" game would balance out.

    Was the wizard overpowered? Not at all; in fact by any wizard estimation he was actually horribly underpowered. He was just a better fighter than the fighter.
    I'd call that overpowered.

    Then there's the druid, who has class features that invalidate entire other classes, namely three: Spellcasting (Tier-1 all by itself)
    If you disable a few rules hacks and some broken non-Core spells, druids' spellcasting is actually pretty weak as spellcasting goes. (It does have great stamina, but pretty low firepower.)

    wild shape (Tier-3 all by itself)
    Nowhere near it. It's got a decent mix of low-level utility and medium-low combat, but without buffs or stupid enemies I doubt it's better than tier 4.

    Reducing Tier-1s and Tier-2s to Tier-3 or Tier-4 isn't just a matter of balancing planar binding and polymorph, it's also a matter of severely limiting the options available to them.
    But once you've balanced the polymorph class to make it substantially weaker than a fighter (or what you've made the fighter into), and weakened save-or-die spells, and weakened DCs in general, and weakened a number of other strong spells, you can easily end up where they can't do anything (except maybe transportation) nearly as well* as the class that's best at it; I'd call that balanced, as they're trading power for versatility.

    *The downside of limited spell levels would be included in this calculation.

    I'd say that a class that can do combat as well as a pure-combat class 4 levels lower, and skills as well as a pure-skills class 4 levels lower, and adventuring as well as a pure-adventuring class 2 levels lower is balanced.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Ah, no. No no no no no no no. No. I've seen a game of Mage: the Ascension played. Or for that matter, Slayer d20, which is similar.

    No, it's my experience that fully customizeable spells like this basically require a gentlemen's agreement between the DM and the PCs that the PCs won't break the game into tiny little pieces, and the DM won't...quit, because that's really all the DM can do. Since that's already a problem with Tier-1 and Tier-2 classes...

    No, when I said re-examine, I meant within the context of the current spell system.
    How about you read the system before you decide whether its abusable or not. Which it isnt. Ive been thinking it over for a week and i cant find anything that makes it better then T3, which is where spellcasting should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Remember that tiers aren't based precisely on power, though that is a factor. They're based on options.
    This is a very BAD understanding of the Tier System itself.
    In short
    Tier 1 can do literally anything
    Tier 2 is able to do anything, so long as they are prepared for it
    Tier 3 is Able to do 1 or 2 things extremely well, while having a number of other things they can do well, or good at alot of other things.
    Tier 4 is either able to do alot of things well, or one thing exceptionally.
    Tier 5 is Able to do something quite Good, but not as good as a specialized Tier 4, or has too many options to be reasonable for their resources
    Tier 6 is by every measure worthless. Unranked means the class is unplayable.

    In long: (core classes only, with ACF/spinoff classes where noted)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Tier 1:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Wizard: their number of feats, spell list even from core, and spellcasting allows them to do many, many things without issues.
    Cleric and Druid: In core, each is a decent combatant, but each also has their exploitable mechanics. Clerics shine with Divine Metamagic, Druids shine with natural spellcasting, their pet, and their spell list's number of buffs. Spellcasting is not exceptional without exploits.


    Tier 2:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Sorcerer, Favored Soul: Wizards stripped of their absurd flexibility and clerics substituting divine metamagic for combat capacity.


    Tier 3:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Factotum: Rogue given better ability to use magic, futher increasing the rogue's flexibility. (because its rogue upgraded)
    Cleric: When barred from Divine metamagic
    Druid: When reasonably controlled.
    Bard: Dont excell, but their value to help a group as backup rogues, having a bit of spellcasting, and being able to buff the party.
    Wild Shape Ranger: Rangers granted better combat capacity.


    Tier 4:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Rogue: Good damage, Good skills, they are a jack of all trades, pulling them down into Tier 3 is their poor health and poor feat options
    Barbarian: Great survivability, great combat capacity, almost no value to the party with Roleplaying objectives, and feat poor.
    Ranger: A good skill selection with good buffs, but in terms of combat, they fall flat because they themselves automatically specialize in Two Weapon Fighting or ranged combat, neither of which is particularly strong.
    Dungeoncrasher Fighter: A meatgrinder when doing their thing, able to deal a reasonable amount of damage when doing it. still has a pile of feats.


    Tier 5:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Fighter: Good damage, not valueable outside of combat though. A pile of Feats is also quite handy for their flexibility
    Monk: Highly Resistant, but feat poor for their combat style, low damage from attacks, cant use magic items.
    Paladin: Feat raped. Weak spellcasting even with divine metamagic, weak inherent healing, weak offensive capacity. Good saves, good health, no real value inherently with a mount.


    Tier 6: Paladin without Divine Metamagic


    Stripping out spells and features because they "should" be exclusive to one class or another means you strip out all BUT the Warrior, Theif, Wizard archtypes, and that is not fun outside of videogames.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-05-11 at 05:37 PM.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Tier 6: Paladin without Divine Metamagic
    I wouldn't go that far. It's not useless at social (since it does get diplomacy and K:N&R), is not that much worse than a fighter at combat and may even be better when the enemy has a lot of save-requiring effects, can serve as a secondary healer (including the ability to use wands of CLW), has a few abilities useful against undead and evil outsiders...even with no divine feats at all I'd peg it at tier 5.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    I wouldn't go that far. It's not useless at social (since it does get diplomacy and K:N&R), is not that much worse than a fighter at combat and may even be better when the enemy has a lot of save-requiring effects, can serve as a secondary healer (including the ability to use wands of CLW), has a few abilities useful against undead and evil outsiders...even with no divine feats at all I'd peg it at tier 5.
    here is a few of the problems, the paladin doesnt have the ability to otherwise use Turn Undead, their half caster level ruins the duration of most of their spells, and their spell list consists mostly of buffs that either get replaced, weak heals, and condition removal. sure a few wands are nice, but nothing spectacular. A second tier healer isnt much better then a character with a maxed heal skill.

    Socially, they are very weak, getting the skills you mentioned, but not intimidate or bluff.

    In combat, they get a situationally stronger attack a few times in a day, pretty decent saves, and good health and AC. They also have a decent supporting member, if you are allowed to hold out for a Dire mount or the gryphon. They are feat strapped though, and can barely afford the spred, having to determine whether the mount, their weapons, or their spellcasting is more important.


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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    here is a few of the problems, the paladin doesnt have the ability to otherwise use Turn Undead, their half caster level ruins the duration of most of their spells, and their spell list consists mostly of buffs that either get replaced, weak heals, and condition removal. sure a few wands are nice, but nothing spectacular. A second tier healer isnt much better then a character with a maxed heal skill.
    You're not talking about my paladin, are you? 'Cause while they still don't have Turn Undead, their CL is now their level -3, not half caster level.

    I will be adding Intimidate to their class skills forthwith. Not Bluff, though.

    How about you read the system before you decide whether its abusable or not. Which it isnt. Ive been thinking it over for a week and i cant find anything that makes it better then T3, which is where spellcasting should be.
    I love your assumption that I didn’t (remember that "scouring the Internet" thing I mentioned I had done?). Not only have I read the article in full in the past, but I own The Slayers d20 and Monte Cook’s World of Darkness d20, both of which make use of very similar systems, and neither of which left me with a warm and happy feeling.

    A DM has a hard enough time predicting players already when most spells are limited in use (if not scope). Giving them an exponentially increasing number of options? I rather think not. It's not a question of power, it's a question of ease at which the players can outmaneuver or subvert any challenge the DM presents them with. Especially seeing as there's typically only 1 DM trying to keep up with 4 players.

    And I'm not talking about the DM trying to screw over the players. I'm talking about a level 5 party with a wordcaster randomly encountering a mummy or 1d3 rust monsters or 1d4+1 skum or other EL-appropriate encounters that are supposed to consume 20% of their resources.

    This is a very BAD understanding of the Tier System itself.
    You realize all you did was post a longwinded version of what I said, right? And following that an even longer-winded version?

    Stripping out spells and features because they "should" be exclusive to one class or another means you strip out all BUT the Warrior, Theif, Wizard archtypes, and that is not fun outside of videogames.
    On the other hand, the simple fact of the matter is that each class should have something that it and only it can do, or else there is no point to a class system at all.

    Here's a thought. If you want to be able to trapfind like a rogue, why not take levels of rogue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi
    I'd say that a class that can do combat as well as a pure-combat class 4 levels lower, and skills as well as a pure-skills class 4 levels lower, and adventuring as well as a pure-adventuring class 2 levels lower is balanced.
    See, this is actually a helpful idea! I'll keep this handy as a rough guide. Thank you, honestly, thank-you. You’re helpful. Toapat, somewhat less so.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-11 at 11:49 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    In the case of Knock and Find Traps: I find the latter to be a good "template" in which to work the former. If Knock, instead of an automatic unlocking ability, worked by granting a bonus to Open Lock on a target, or placed a penalty on the Open Lock skill check DC, it would be less of a hassle and more useful. In fact, if it were just as if using an Open Lock check but with a hefty bonus but stayed as per the norm, it would be useful while still being less powerful.

    Knock, as well as very powerful protection spells such as Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement, are essentially absolute effect spells: once cast, the protection is perfect and cannot be broken. Immunity to fear effects from the paladin works exactly the same way, making Will saves and one of the worst available debuffs a non-worry since 2nd (Necropolitan) or 3rd (Aura of Courage) level, which is a shame as most of the high-level monsters have a slew of immunities which include immunity to fear (dragons, constructs, undead, pretty much all outsiders have it). Working Mind Blank to be a large bonus to Will saves against mind-affecting abilities somewhat cheapens it, but as a special "spell resistance" versus mind-affecting abilities (which may or may not be punched through with the use of the Spell Penetration feat) lowers its absolute negation property while still making it a paramount protection ability. Freedom of Movement is a tad more complex, as it isn't just an absolute negation spell but also one that applies to multiple conceps (by RAW, you could technically move if you desired even if unconscious, except that "no action" supersedes "move action"). Antimagic Field works on the same guidelines, except that there's Globe of Invulnerability to base upon (negates only magic, through supernatural abilities may count; it's negating magic items and specifically magic weapons and armor which makes it absolutely broken, particularly when the mage has a way to negate the effect through Sculpt Spell or Cheater of Mystra).

    Even then, there's still a few spells that cannot be fixed through normal means, and some that even with other kinds of fixes they'll remain a problem. Alter Self, Polymorph and Shapechange are the largest offenders, as the polymorph subschool changes pretty much didn't touch them, and it's their absolute versatility that's the problem. Heck, even getting them a few levels up won't do anything (such as Alter Self as a 4th level spell and Polymorph as a 7th level spell), and Polymorph any Object is a different kind of offender.

    Reexamining is good, but where I see most of the "fixes" around fall flat is in the idea that magic can be fixed easily, doing one or two things. Tackling magic, like in most cases, requires a solution from multiple angles, which stops being "easy" and enters a realm right between "incredibly complex" and "ripe for a new game system".
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Reexamining is good, but where I see most of the "fixes" around fall flat is in the idea that magic can be fixed easily, doing one or two things. Tackling magic, like in most cases, requires a solution from multiple angles, which stops being "easy" and enters a realm right between "incredibly complex" and "ripe for a new game system".
    My maxim is "there is nothing wrong with 3rd Edition that can't be fixed by what is right with 3rd Edition." Case and point, your knock/find traps suggestion.

    As a general guide, a lot of spells are going to have their casting times increased, especially if they're utility spells. Limited wish and any summoning spell that isn't the summon monster/summon nature's ally line (and, well, probably not summon swarm or the like, either, but you get the idea), for example, will have casting times increased to at least 10 minutes, making their in-combat use dubious at best.

    I'm given to understand that Pathfinder worked wonders for polymorph and like spells, too.

    Limited wish is also going to borrow an idea from Baldur's Gate II's take on the spell; that is, it's going to involve a Wisdom check to determine the effectiveness. "Unwise wishes will leave the wisher wanting."

    I'm also tempted to bring back the idea of spells with a cost to them, and I don't mean material components or XP. Reworking reality should cost the caster something, even if only temporarily (contact other plane, for example, dealing temporary Charisma damage per question asked on a failed save as one's mind wrestles with talking to an outsider; or haste leaving the targets fatigued at the end of its effect).
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-12 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    here is a few of the problems, the paladin doesnt have the ability to otherwise use Turn Undead
    Of course they do; it won't be as strong as a cleric, but can turn some weaker undead.

    their half caster level ruins the duration of most of their spells
    They'll still last some time.

    and their spell list consists mostly of buffs that either get replaced, weak heals, and condition removal. sure a few wands are nice, but nothing spectacular.
    Some of the buffs (e.g. divine favor or prayer, holy sword) don't get replaced, and condition removal is always nice. It's not major spellcasting, but is better than you're going to otherwise get on a sub-tier-2 character who's also good at physical combat.

    A second tier healer isnt much better then a character with a maxed heal skill.
    A maxed heal skill doesn't let you heal up between fights. A paladin with wands of CLW does.

    Socially, they are very weak, getting the skills you mentioned, but not intimidate or bluff.
    They're pretty weak, but stronger than most if not all other full-BAB classes below tier 2.

    They are feat strapped though
    So they won't rely that much on feats...what's the problem? It's not like I'm claiming they can compete with a tier 1.

    and can barely afford the spred, having to determine whether the mount, their weapons, or their spellcasting is more important.
    Why do they have to determine? Why not have a bit of each, and use the synergies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    On the other hand, the simple fact of the matter is that each class should have something that it and only it can do
    Not necessarily. For each pair of classes, there should be something that class A can do and class B can't. It's ok if class C can do it as well, as long as there's something else that class A can do and class C can't (even if class B can do it.)

    So if a wizard can do a rogue's job as well as a rogue, that's a problem. But if a fighter and a cleric can between them do everything a paladin can do, that's ok, because the paladin can still do some things the fighter can't and some things the cleric can't, so it's the only class that can do both.

    See, this is actually a helpful idea! I'll keep this handy as a rough guide.
    It's actually a specific case of a more general (and more useful as a guide) principle: The sum of a class's capabilities in the 3 main areas (combat, social, and adventuring) should be the same over all classes, even if the distribution (and manner in which it is capable) differs from class to class. Here a class's capabilities is determined by the basic rule "+2 level=X2 value", so being as capable as a "pure" class of the same level counts as 1, being as capable as a "pure" class of one level lower counts as 0.7 or so, being as capable as a "pure" class of 2 levels lower counts as .5, being as capable as a "pure" class of 3 levels lower counts as .35, and being as capable as a "pure" class of 4 levels lower counts as .25. Intermediate values get intermediate strengths.

    I'd estimate the classes' proportions to roughly be the following (although you might prefer to get other numbers); note that this does not line up well between classes precisely because classes are not that well balanced:
    -Barbarian: .7 combat, .3 adventuring.
    -Bard: .7 social, .3 combat (mainly in a support role)
    -Cleric: .25 adventuring, .25 social, .5 combat (mainly in a support role); this may vary depending on domains.
    -Druid: .25 adventuring (outdoors), .25 social, .5 combat
    -Fighter: 1 combat
    -Monk: .3 social, .7 combat (mainly as useful against soft targets and casters).
    -Paladin: .3 social, .7 combat
    -Ranger: .7 adventuring (outdoors), .3 combat
    -Rogue: .25 adventuring (indoors), .5 social, .25 combat
    -Sorcerer/Wizard: .5 adventuring, .25 social, .25 combat
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    It's actually a specific case of a more general (and more useful as a guide) principle: The sum of a class's capabilities in the 3 main areas (combat, social, and adventuring) should be the same over all classes, even if the distribution (and manner in which it is capable) differs from class to class. Here a class's capabilities is determined by the basic rule "+2 level=X2 value", so being as capable as a "pure" class of the same level counts as 1, being as capable as a "pure" class of one level lower counts as 0.7 or so, being as capable as a "pure" class of 2 levels lower counts as .5, being as capable as a "pure" class of 3 levels lower counts as .35, and being as capable as a "pure" class of 4 levels lower counts as .25. Intermediate values get intermediate strengths.
    M...maaaath....!

    There's an obvious question here. What are those numbers based on? Like, the barbarian has .7 combat. What's going into that .7? What's the value of the individual abilities the barbarian possesses?
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-12 at 11:42 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    M...maaaath....!
    Yeah, I'm quite a bit into math. The general rule is that you want either a pure class (e.g. fighter is pure combat), or 2 levels lower/4 levels lower/4 levels lower, or 1 level lower/between 3 and 4 levels lower, or (although no PHB classes are balanced in this way) slightly weaker than a "pure" class 3 levels lower in each area.

    There's an obvious question here. What are those numbers based on? Like, the barbarian has .7 combat. What's going into that .7? What's the value of the individual abilities the barbarian possesses?
    It's essentially just an estimate of what seems to be the intended ratio; in that case, it's that the barbarian has a few adventuring-based abilities, but is mainly combat, so .7/.3 gives a mainly combat-based idea but not as much so as a fighter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    This balance of combat, social, and adventuring sounds very interesting. Combat is easy enough for me to wrap my head around, social is a little looser in my in-head definition but good enough for me to use the concept. But what does adventuring entail, in your mind?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    The stuff that comes in between the more substantive encounters: Travel (and everything associated with it), getting to hard-to-reach places, trapfinding, opening locks, etc.
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
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    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

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    Rogue Shadows's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - Changes to every core class, to feats, and to spell lists [PEACH]

    Question: How is this for spell revisions? I grabbed most of the ideas from EN World.

    General rules:
    - Unless the spell is purely offensive or defensive, it always has a casting time of at least full-round action (I'll be playing that one by ear, but it basically translates to "unless the spell deals actual damage" for offensive spells)
    - Ranged touch attacks are gone. Any spell that used to require a ranged touch attack now requires a saving throw
    - All spells that target anything now allow for some kind of saving throw and spell resistance.
    - Any spell not immediately useful in combat has a casting time of at least 1 minute or more.
    - All Conjuration (Creation) [Acid] spells are now Evocation [Acid]
    - All Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Influencing] spells are now Enchantment [Fear, Mind-Influencing]
    - All Conjuration (Healing) spells are now Necromancy (Healing) spells.
    - Polymorph effects change you completely into the target form in every way, such that you simply grab the appropriate monster entry and sub it for your character sheet. Any effects currently active on you are negated while polymorphed, you don't retain any abilities, you are for all intents and purposes the target creature...with the following exceptions.
    --- 1) You retain your own Int score; this allows polymorphing into animals and mindless critters without needing edge-case rules, and prevents players from turning into high-Int creatures to take advantage of high Knowledge modifiers (not a game-breaker, but something aesthetically undesirable). Additionally, you keep your own Alignment and languages known.
    --- 2) Any limited-use abilities of the form are unavailable, "limited-use" being defined as any abilities not able to be used every round all day without limitation, such as dragons' 1d4-round-recharge breath weapon, binders' every-5-rounds abilities, monster 3/day SLAs, and so forth.

    Specific Spells
    Alter Self [fix: change into a creature of your type of 5 HD or lower; if you gain a Fly speed, it is Clumsy or the creature's, whichever is worse]

    Astral Projection [fix: spell ends if the recipient leaves the Astral Plane by any means; OR doesn't make copies of worn and carried items]

    Baleful Polymorph [fix: as polymorph; the duration is still permanent; however, remove curse will now remove a baleful polymorph]

    Black Tentacles [fix: allow a Reflex save to leave the area un-grappled]

    Blasphemy [fix: Will negates]

    Cloudkill [fix: cloudkill is now poisonous; ergo, it can be interacted with as though it were a poison, including Antitoxin granting a bonus on saves, etc]

    Comprehend Languages [fix: gives a set bonus of +10 to Decipher Script skills instead of auto-deciphering]

    Dictum [fix: Will negates]

    Discern Lies [fix: instead adds a flat +10 bonus to skill check]

    Divine Power [fix: remove the ability to cast spells while under the effect of Divine Power]

    Enlarge Person [fix: reduce duration to 1 rd/CL, and move to 3rd level]

    Entangle [fix: reduce radius to 10'; OR move to 3rd level]

    Freedom of Movement [fix: move to 6th level]

    Glitterdust [fix: "Spell Resistance: Yes (blinding only)"]

    Holy Word: [fix: Will negates]

    Knock [fix: adds a set +10 bonus to Open Lock checks]

    Limited Wish [fix: you cannot in any way use limited wish to acquire more wishes]

    Mage's/Mordenkainen's Disjunction [fix: does not permanently destroy magic items, but does suppress them for CL rounds]

    Mage's/Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion [fix: It's gone. "I wish I had a private demiplane that has a single entrance." I think not]

    Magic Circle vs. Evil/etc. [fix: see Protection from Evil, and move to 5th level]

    Mind Blank [fix: reduce duration to 10 min/CL]

    Mirror Image [fix: you get 1d2+1 mirrored image/2 caster levels (max 1d2+5)]

    Planar Binding line [fix: don't set a HD cap, set a CR cap instead; or use Summon Monster-like tables for call-able creatures]

    Protection from Evil/etc. [fix: only protects from possession and mind control originating from creatures of the warded-against alignment, and move to 3rd level]

    Polymorph [fix: works as normal regarding restrictions on the forms able to be assumed, but the HD limit is 10]

    Polymorph any Object [fix: as polymorph, exept that it additionally allows transmutation of creatures into objects and vice-versa, has an HD limit of 15, and has a duration of 1 hour regardless of form assumed]

    Regeneration [fix: move down levels. Raise the level on ressurection spells]

    Resist Energy [fix: do not increase the energy resistance at higher CLs]

    Shapechange [fix: as polymorph, except tht there are no limittions on type or composition of the forms assumed, the HD limit is 20, the caster can change forms as a swift action, and there is a 1,500 gp material component]

    Wall of Stone/Iron [fix: these spells need a duration other than instantaneous. 1 hr/level?]

    Web [fix: Drop STR DCs by 5 and allow half movement rate]

    Word of Chaos: [fix: Will negates]

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