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    Quote Originally Posted by dropdadgbe View Post
    I guess I wasn't being clear. I agree that if you're only going to pick one, buying bonuses through items is more cost effective than spending feats on it. What I don't get is why everyone is treating it as an either/or decision rather than two things you can do both of.

    EDIT: Also, a few people have mentioned crystals now. What are those from?
    weapon/armor crystals, such as the least crystal of return, which have mentioned up until now, are in the magic item compendium.

    some of the crappy feats from core have been adapted into items, so instead of wasting a feat with mobility if you want to get into shadowdancer or elocator or whatever, you can just put mobility on your armor for a +1 bonus, leaving your feat slots free to take good things.

    one thing that has been coming up in the thread is the concept of the feat tax, but I don't feel it's been fully explored.

    is the mounted combat chain good? you could do a lot worse. however, the first step in that, mounted combat, is pretty darn lackluster. is the archery chain good? it's okay. but is PBS good? no, not at all. if that were the only feat in the tree, you'd never take it. is indomitable soul good? yeah. iron will on its own and not as a gateway to other cool stuff? not so much.

    viewing the feat taxes as the only way to unlock cool stuff makes sense from a PO POV, but it doesn't really change the fact that these feats are all pretty lame.
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    We've talked about Combat Casting. This can be a good feat at low levels, but fades towards pointless at about 10th. So you have about 10 levels of utility out of this feat.

    What about that feat you take at 12th ? You only get to use this from 12th level onwards. It may be the best feat in the game, but you had to play 11 levels without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    We've talked about Combat Casting. This can be a good feat at low levels, but fades towards pointless at about 10th. So you have about 10 levels of utility out of this feat.

    What about that feat you take at 12th ? You only get to use this from 12th level onwards. It may be the best feat in the game, but you had to play 11 levels without it.
    True, but why not pick feats that will be useful for all 20+ levels in lieu of only 10 levels?

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    In terms of feat tax, it would be good to agree what that is. In my view, a feat that offers a minor bonus to a skill or a roll with no scaling is a contender. All the skill bonus feats, point blank shot (the logic of PBS for Far Shot....) instead of the more intuitive weapon focus (bow) for example. The dodge feat is on its own not impressive (gain +1 vs one opponent), and few would take was it not a pre-req.

    Mounted combat is however not a bad feat. It counters attacks that you know will hit the mount and it is a skill check, and thus is scaleable. If I planned on being mounted I'd take it anyway most likely.

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    Other terrible feats: any feat that just increments a number tends to be worse than some magic item option. In general, the best feats allow you to do something new and different: like: using Dex for attack, subtracting from attack to do more damage, allowing attacks against you to hit harder so you can strike back, and so on. There aren't really any stats worth +1 or +2, so all the feats that just make something +1 better are a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dropdadgbe View Post
    I guess I wasn't being clear. I agree that if you're only going to pick one, buying bonuses through items is more cost effective than spending feats on it. What I don't get is why everyone is treating it as an either/or decision rather than two things you can do both of.
    Mainly because you are only tying to reach some target number and you want to spend as much of your gold as possible and as little feats as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    That's presuming you can just go into Ye Olde Magik Shoppe and buy what you want. Not all campaigns are like that. Some magic items are stereotypically more likely to be in treasure hoards than others. A Cloak of Resistance is one of them. It's nice to a have. Great Fortitude would stack with it for a nice Fortitude save. Rather handy to avoid save or die effects and massive damage system shock. Alternatively, one might think his saving throws are good enough, let another party member have the cloak, and take a different item from the treasure hoard.

    It is my philosophy not to depend on having any one specific magic item or else my character is The Suck. I can have a wish list. I can adapt to what I find in treasure. I can appreciate the compensation of a disadvantage or a big bonus at something I already excel. At character creation I'm not going to depend on having one or else the build doesn't work.
    I like your philosophy, but DnD is a game that depends on magic items. Practically every character is a walking magical Christmas tree

    I don't see how you can reduce dependence unless you're a spellcaster, in which case you depend on buffs and use metamagic feats/other caster specific feats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    Of course, as noted upthread, taking Endurance as a Wizard is just a poor selection, it doesn't invalidate the feat itself, which may be useful under some circumstances.
    I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy, and I've had it come up on checks to continue running and resist drowning.

    It's a bit like Cleave: something you know you'll be using often, especially at low levels. It's not necessarily the best choice all the time, but it's hardly one of the worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
    I like your philosophy, but DnD is a game that depends on magic items. Practically every character is a walking magical Christmas tree

    I don't see how you can reduce dependence unless you're a spellcaster, in which case you depend on buffs and use metamagic feats/other caster specific feats.
    I expect to have magic items, just not any one particular item essential for my character's build for without it he's The Suck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    I expect to have magic items, just not any one particular item essential for my character's build for without it he's The Suck.
    It's not huge to expect to pick up something like a Cloak of Resistance or some stat boosters, but I see your point. The issue is that there are a lot more useful feats than you will ever have feat slots, and every feat you spend on something an item could do is a feat you're not spending on something an item can't do. Weapon Focus can be replaced with a higher plus on your weapon, but what can replace Power Attack? Extend Spell? Stand Still? For a feat that can be duplicated by items to be worth it, it has to be extremely efficient (like Knowledge Devotion; on a suitably skilled character at mid levels, it's like having +3-5 weapons on top of whatever else you've got). The choice isn't so much "take X as an item vs X as a feat" as it is "take X as an item and Y as a feat vs take X as a feat and learn to live without Y".
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy,
    Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    I've had it come up on checks to continue running and resist drowning.
    I... don't know that I've ever made either check.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    It's a bit like Cleave: something you know you'll be using often, especially at low levels. It's not necessarily the best choice all the time, but it's hardly one of the worst.
    I also don't see Cleave getting used that often...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.


    I... don't know that I've ever made either check.


    I also don't see Cleave getting used that often...
    Then don't pick the feat. If you know how to build a cleaver, it is a good feat. An extra standard action attack is nothing to sneeze at.
    Last edited by Gwendol; 2012-05-16 at 01:47 AM.

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    I'm always amused by debates of Combat Casting vs. Skill Focus (Concentration).

    Assuming non-Core material is allowed, you don't get Dispelled super often, you're not using either feat for a prerequisite, and you have a Constitution of at least 13 (duh, I hope), they are both clearly inferior to Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt).

    Cleave is awesome. (Not THE most awesome feat around, but pretty feasible for any decent melee character.) Great Cleave is horrid.

    Brew Potion ... no, no thanks. Potions just aren't worth either their cost or the action used to activate them. Some potions are worth using if you happen to find them in randomly-generated treasure, rather than selling them at half cost. But the only characters who should ever consider crafting potions are low-level Artificers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.
    Better yet, avoid using up your armor crystal slot and just build the Restful property into your armor for the same cost. As icing on the cake, get a bonus to Listen checks made while sleeping. (Dungeonscape. Not sure why this always gets forgotten!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I'm always amused by debates of Combat Casting vs. Skill Focus (Concentration).

    Assuming non-Core material is allowed, you don't get Dispelled super often, you're not using either feat for a prerequisite, and you have a Constitution of at least 13 (duh, I hope), they are both clearly inferior to Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt).
    Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.
    Yeah, me too ... but for some reason, these debates always seem to be taking place in a setting that starts with "let's say, hypothetically, that that's not an option" ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.
    I once played a Bard who dumped concentration, he did have Tumble though.

    Casting defensively is important for some casters, those using touch spells mainly, otherwise its just handy to be able to do it if you have to.
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    Ah yes, the different variations of If You Want Me I'll be Somewhere Else. I like those too.

    So, in order of desirability:

    1, Have room to maneuver
    2, Have a way of moving past things.
    3, Have two bits of Plutonium to bang together
    4, Have Combat Casting.

    Unless you like spamming touch spells. Agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    It is my philosophy not to depend on having any one specific magic item or else my character is The Suck. I can have a wish list. I can adapt to what I find in treasure. I can appreciate the compensation of a disadvantage or a big bonus at something I already excel. At character creation I'm not going to depend on having one or else the build doesn't work.
    It's +2 to a single save; it's not just a niche use, it's a really small boost to a niche use. That's not good news! And what kind of build are you assembling that can't possibly function without Great Fortitude? You won't shrivel up into dust and blow away on the spring breeze just because your Cloak got suppressed by a dispel.

    You get seven feats. Everything you take has to be considered as 1/7 of a primary resource at your disposal. At high levels, the boost is trivial and easily replaced by magic. At low levels, it's an even larger share of your feats, resources you could spend improving your offense, so you could roll less saving throws. On top of that, it's still not enough to change the fact that at low levels, the result of a save is primarily luck-based; +2 is not going to change that.

    No matter how you look at this thing, it's not worth it. It's a feat slot you set on fire to qualify for other stuff.

    People tell you to buy an item instead for three reasons-
    1: Because cash and items are liquid assets. Items aren't permanent whereas feats are. A Cloak of Resistance fills your back slot, but when you don't expect to be making any fort saves, you can stuff it in your bag and put on a Cloak of Charisma instead. Every minute you're not making a fortitude save, you're a feat behind everyone else. And you can sell off a Cloak if you're not using it; you're stuck with your feats. Unless you're using Retraining, which you may want to look into.
    2: Because buying items with gold is a significantly finer grain then buying benefits with feats. Taking a feat is allocating 1/7 of your feats, and you don't get options on that. You can't take half a feat. But you have much more control over how much gold you invest in something.
    3: Because Craft Wondrous Item is Great Fortitude and also one million other things, and also applied to the whole party. With a day of downtime, what the DM doesn't want to give you can, in fact, be yours anyway. Knit your own cloak, and spit in the face of the divine. And why stop there? Craft yourself a nifty little Intelligence-booster. Make strength gloves for your friendly neighborhood fighter! (He works hard for you.)

    Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.

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    I'll stop kidding around to say that Scribe Scroll is VERY good for Divine casters, although like any item creation feat it requires resources and downtime. Craft wand is maybe better in the long run, but requires still more downtime to make work.
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    2 things.

    1: This "Retraining" everyone has brought up. Where do I find that?

    2: This bit of awesome...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heatwizard View Post
    Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.

    That was awesome. Mind if I toss it in my signature?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    I once played a Bard who dumped concentration, he did have Tumble though.
    Bards can take a feat to use Perform instead of Concentration for the sake of spellcasting.

    They can also cast a spell to use Perform instead of Concentration for anything, but ya know, limited duration and stuff. Potentially nifty for Bardblades or Bardsaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Casting defensively is important for some casters, those using touch spells mainly, otherwise its just handy to be able to do it if you have to.
    Plus it's not hard to just do in most games anyway. The check isn't all that hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    I'll stop kidding around to say that Scribe Scroll is VERY good for Divine casters, although like any item creation feat it requires resources and downtime. Craft wand is maybe better in the long run, but requires still more downtime to make work.
    Scrolls, being generally overpriced, usually aren't worth making enough of to be worth the feat. If you're getting it free, sure, but...

    Also, characters can work together on things. Therefore, anyone who's got a friendly Artificer or Wizard can easily make some scrolls if they want.
    Last edited by Answerer; 2012-05-16 at 08:19 AM.

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    If the DM is going to screw you over regardless of what feats you have, you have other problems than the worth of spending the feat.

    It's not like I'm saying Great Fortitude is the best feat EVAR if you don't have it you SUCK. As I wrote before, some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not better are not auto-The Suck. For some people a permanent +2 to Fortitude may be important to them and is worth using a feat for it. If they happen upon a cloak of resistance in addition, great, but until such time they get one, the +2 will do. They might prefer a different magic item altogether. It's a varying mileage issue, not a must have.

    Some "not better" feats are The Suck. I just disagree as to which some of them are. Hopefully 5E will learn the lesson and not have any The Suck feats.
    Last edited by navar100; 2012-05-16 at 08:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heatwizard View Post
    Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.
    That's a good point. Huge variation from table to table on that one though.

    I sometimes play tournament games, where +3 on a single save is considered a reasonable investment, because failed saves lead to failed missions, and a DM who arbitraily added +2 to a DC would almost certainly be caught doing so.

    I also play games where we don't really use dice, much, and the descriptive label of a feat is more important than it's mechanical effect. For example, the DM would let the guy with alertness make spot checks in some situations, because he's, you know, alert.

    While it's a good point that a mechanical benefit might not actually make any difference, I'm not sure it's really relevent to the thread, because the same can be said of any feat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyu63 View Post
    2 things.

    1: This "Retraining" everyone has brought up. Where do I find that?

    2: This bit of awesome...

    That was awesome. Mind if I toss it in my signature?
    Player's Handbook 2, p. 191.

    And if you want, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    If the DM is going to screw you over regardless of what feats you have, you have other problems than the worth of spending the feat.

    It's not like I'm saying Great Fortitude is the best feat EVAR if you don't have it you SUCK. As I wrote before, some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not better are not auto-The Suck. For some people a permanent +2 to Fortitude may be important to them and is worth using a feat for it. If they happen upon a cloak of resistance in addition, great, but until such time they get one, the +2 will do. They might prefer a different magic item altogether. It's a varying mileage issue, not a must have.

    Some "not better" feats are The Suck. I just disagree as to which some of them are. Hopefully 5E will learn the lesson and not have any The Suck feats.
    Yeah, but it's a small bonus to a single, less then crucial roll; one that's actually pretty easy to boost via other means. That's the difference between it and the +2 to skill feats versus, say, Improved Initiative, which is a sizable boost to one of the most important rolls you make that's much harder to modify.

    I just don't really see the point in defending Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, of all feats. They're bad, they're not really relevant to the character fluff, and they're boring as sin. I mean, Great Cleave is sub-par, but it's entertaining when it goes off, so there's something there.

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    I'm not sure navar has ever heard of "opportunity cost."

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    When choosing a feat you need to look for these things.
    #1 It gives you an ability you did not have before. (That ability must be worthwhile.) Weapon and armor proficiency fit here but those are mostly sub par. You could invest one level in a fighter class and get proficiency with everything. Leadership and Natural Spell are good examples. You could not cast spells shape changed before. You did not have a cohort before. And these things are potent. This begins to edge into territories like eschew materials and shock trooper which change your abilities quite a bit.

    #2 It drastically improves an ability you have. Power Attack just makes you hit harder, but you hit a lot harder. Improved initiative just makes you faster. Not many other things do that though.

    #3 X stat to Y ability. Generally I'd rather just have Z stat be solid. However in situations like low point buy or bad rolling you may not be able to get a good Z. X is all you have. Weapon finesse is nice. On top of that magic bonuses to X are now just as good as magic bonuses to X and Y were before, effectively halving their cost. (If you intended to get bonuses to X and Y.)

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    And you should avoid things that can be duplicated cheaply using other resources. That's why proficiencies normally aren't worth it. 1 level of fighter gives you all of them and some other nice things. Saving throws can be got with a few gold pieces. Many skill bonuses can be had for magic items or the skill check can be rendered moot by magic.




    Now mounted combat is not a good option. But its not awful. It just has so many things going against it.
    -It sucks in a dungeon unless your small on a medium mount.
    -It doesn't protect your mount from area of effect things. 10th level fighter riding down a 5th level wizard on a 2 hd horse. Fireball and eating dirt is embarrassing
    -It doesn't protect the mount from two baddies. Or 10 peasants. More embarrassing.
    -It costs a feat.

    That feat could have been wild cohort. Go look it up. But If I ever make a mounted character I'm first going to worry about getting a decent mount before I worry about qualifying for mounted charge.

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    Default Re: Feats to Avoid

    Why avoid brew potion? Wouldn't someone want to have a hired cohort ( monk for saves and speed ) drop/shatter a potion of like reality maelstrom in the middle of an keep while the party sits back and watches the show from afar.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Central Kentucky
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Feats to Avoid

    Potions don't work that way... there are very very major restrictions on what spells can be made into potions, and it costs a WHOLE TON of money to make a spell into a potion. Just use a scroll or something. Also, Spell Gems or Prayer Runes are better than Potions...

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Sunnydale

    Default Re: Feats to Avoid

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    Why avoid brew potion? Wouldn't someone want to have a hired cohort ( monk for saves and speed ) drop/shatter a potion of like reality maelstrom in the middle of an keep while the party sits back and watches the show from afar.
    Is the keep a creature who can swallow liquids?
    A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

    Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

    The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
    So you'd need to make a keep into a creature who can swallow a potion (or into a creature who won't complain when you rub oil on its exterior ─ not interior surfaces like floors) and to find a way to reduce Reality Maelstrom from 9th level to 3rd.

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