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    RogueGuy

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    Question [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Hello all! I'm thinking about rolling an almost wholly Divination caster. It'd be a full caster (thinking Wizard), and it'd have to be relatively effective through low-ish levels. Yes, I realize that I'll be gimped to all heck.
    I'm sort of new to D&D and specifically 3.5, so I have a few questions. Is it possible to fulfill a Rogue's duties as a full caster? Is it even possible to play a full diviner? Are there certain classes or PrCs that make great diviners? Any feats, spells, skill tricks, or any other such things that you can recommend?

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    First off, Focused Specialist Diviner, Master specialist, Spontaneous Divination, going into divine orcale prc is the best diviner I could think of.

    2nd, a caster is fully capable of stealing a rogues skillmonkey role. There really is a spell for just about everything.(not sure if a divination caster could). Two alternatives to a rogue skillmonkey(beguiler, Spellthief) are spellcasters themselves.

    I have no idea how well a full diviner would work in a party though. Not to much in the offence/buff department. Any of the schools are nice for battlefield control, buffing, or debuffing though. Divining tends to be nice for out of combat utility. Do you really want to be stuck spending most battles just kind of... staring out?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    First off, Focused Specialist Diviner, Master specialist, Spontaneous Divination, going into divine orcale prc is the best diviner I could think of.
    I will look into those now! Thanks a bunch! Is Wizard a good jumping off point, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    2nd, a caster is fully capable of stealing a rogues skillmonkey role. There really is a spell for just about everything.(not sure if a divination caster could). Two alternatives to a rogue skillmonkey(beguiler, Spellthief) are spellcasters themselves.
    I have a Beguiler right now, actually. I love it, but I'd like to stay away from fixed spell lists for a diviner (unless it's made solely for divination, then I'll have to see it). And Spellthief seems like a lot of things I wouldn't need/want. So, as a Wizard or something, would I need to use weird and cheesy tricks to be similar to a Rogue skill monkey?

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    I have no idea how well a full diviner would work in a party though. Not to much in the offence/buff department. Any of the schools are nice for battlefield control, buffing, or debuffing though. Divining tends to be nice for out of combat utility. Do you really want to be stuck spending most battles just kind of... staring out?
    With my Beguiler I generally Glitterdust, relax for a bit, then maybe drop a bit of fog or try my hand at making another single target more useless. Then I'm done. lol
    I don't mind not contributing to damage as much, though I would be contributing small amounts and the occasional buff. Maybe I wouldn't make myself strictly Divination, but largely. So a bit of Conjuration for control and some Transmutation for buffing would be in order, I guess. Thanks for the reality check!

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Diviner live for their connection to mystic, oracles and foreseeing.
    Logically, a diviner works the best as your DM can apply and react to your powers.
    The DM must anticipate divine communes, far-ranged scouting, an "all-seeing-eye" and so on.

    Even a focused specialist can contribute to your party with secondary roles.
    He can be the party booster, controller or dispeller as any other wizard specialist can do.

    And IMHO, a diviner is thematically more a generalist wizard than all other specialists since he focus on a very general, wizard-ish theme (divine) and technically, he loses only 1-2 schools.
    Diviners get therefore the best of all disciplines, IMHO.

    I also like the optional rules to customize a diviner:

    feat: insightful divination is great;
    ACF: glimpse peril is good, too (PH2). Often overlooked save-bonus for free.
    domains: besides oracle domain (included in divine oracle), you really, really want the destiny domain (races of destiny).
    You get the best 9th-level divination (choose destiny), some good cleric divinations (omen of peril, augury) and great party boosters (warp destiny, stalwart pact) with an esoteric, time-related focus.
    Plus, you could get both curse spells although by RAW, you cannot cast domain spells if you banned the according school in the first place.
    I allow cleric domain spells of banned schools as long as a wizard gets them via arcane disciple.
    Reason: arcane disciple demands wisdom to get access to those cleric domain spells. So, even if it is a sor/wiz-spell, the specific domain spell is treated like a divine spell, depending on wisdom.

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Well, yeah, I think so, INT based so you still get plenty of skillpoints for other nice things(maybe human with able learner and a dip into rogue first level). Diviner is just a word for a wizard specialized in Divination, focused speciliast and spontaneous divination are just acfs that you can stack for divinatoin. Divine Oracle is a full casting prc that has skills entirely related to divination. No one can do it better than them I don't think, but its al wizard suggestions other than that.

    Have you thought about talking to your DM about using a different spellist? You don't have to play everything by the book, so if you want a beguiler who's job is Illusion/Divination rather than enchantment/illusion you could always make one with a friend. Its not like the books are perfectly balanced themselves. And trust me, its cheesy enough to have spellcasting...

    Atm, I'm playing a transmutationist in a game. I have yet to touch or damage a foe after 9 levels. Black tentacles and uberbuffed melee can take care of them. You can do alot without being confrontational eh?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lactantius View Post
    Diviner live for their connection to mystic, oracles and foreseeing.
    Logically, a diviner works the best as your DM can apply and react to your powers.
    The DM must anticipate divine communes, far-ranged scouting, an "all-seeing-eye" and so on.

    Even a focused specialist can contribute to your party with secondary roles.
    He can be the party booster, controller or dispeller as any other wizard specialist can do.

    And IMHO, a diviner is thematically more a generalist wizard than all other specialists since he focus on a very general, wizard-ish theme (divine) and technically, he loses only 1-2 schools.
    Diviners get therefore the best of all disciplines, IMHO.

    I also like the optional rules to customize a diviner:

    feat: insightful divination is great;
    ACF: glimpse peril is good, too (PH2). Often overlooked save-bonus for free.
    domains: besides oracle domain (included in divine oracle), you really, really want the destiny domain (races of destiny).
    You get the best 9th-level divination (choose destiny), some good cleric divinations (omen of peril, augury) and great party boosters (warp destiny, stalwart pact) with an esoteric, time-related focus.
    Plus, you could get both curse spells although by RAW, you cannot cast domain spells if you banned the according school in the first place.
    I allow cleric domain spells of banned schools as long as a wizard gets them via arcane disciple.
    Reason: arcane disciple demands wisdom to get access to those cleric domain spells. So, even if it is a sor/wiz-spell, the specific domain spell is treated like a divine spell, depending on wisdom.
    Thanks for all that, Lactantius! Are you talking about a Diviner class? Or a specialist Wizard? That's a lot of divine magic! lol

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    Well, yeah, I think so, INT based so you still get plenty of skillpoints for other nice things(maybe human with able learner and a dip into rogue first level). Diviner is just a word for a wizard specialized in Divination, focused speciliast and spontaneous divination are just acfs that you can stack for divinatoin. Divine Oracle is a full casting prc that has skills entirely related to divination. No one can do it better than them I don't think, but its al wizard suggestions other than that.
    I will check that all out in a bit, but it sounds great! Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    Have you thought about talking to your DM about using a different spellist? You don't have to play everything by the book, so if you want a beguiler who's job is Illusion/Divination rather than enchantment/illusion you could always make one with a friend. Its not like the books are perfectly balanced themselves. And trust me, its cheesy enough to have spellcasting...
    I'd prefer to stick to books for now. I know my DM knows tons about this game, but it's a lot of work to ask him to compile a spell list for me, and I don't even know what I'd want on it too well. I've got a lot of research to go. But I'll be talking to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Righteous Doggy View Post
    Atm, I'm playing a transmutationist in a game. I have yet to touch or damage a foe after 9 levels. Black tentacles and uberbuffed melee can take care of them. You can do alot without being confrontational eh?
    Oh yes! I've maybe shot my Beguiler's bow twice in total. Blind, slowed enemies operating against super-melee allies is always fun to watch.

    Also, which do you guys think is better for divining: arcane or divine magic?
    Last edited by WeHeartKatamari; 2012-05-14 at 02:52 AM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    A diviner is a specialist of wizards.
    Thouh divination and divine spellcasting sound similiar, they are two difference things.

    So, yes, going for a diviner is talking about arcane magic.
    You start right off as a specialist at level 1.
    You could go later on for divine oracle, though, I find it a bit of a lackluster. The real divination stuff comes at level 1-3.
    Evasion and uncanny dodge are nice, but IMHO not really associated with being a divine character.
    The capstone at level 10 is powerful, yes. But I would not spend 10 levels with boring progression between it.

    At the moment, I am working on a semi-hombrewed prestige class.
    It is based on the wizards of high sorcery, which cou can find in the dragonlance supplement "Towers of High Sorcery."

    The class gives options based on your choice of magic "theme."
    You go as white, red or black wizard (robe).
    So, you get a focus with the correspondent magic schools.
    Since I want to play a mix of a diviner and abjurer, I choose white robe.
    It reflects perfectly the theme of a good-aligned, caring wizard who uses magic to do good and hunts down those who use magic in evil or irresponsible ways.

    The prestige class itselfs works a bit like a Loremaster. You learn secrets associated with your specialty schools (in my case, abjuration and divination).
    I will present the class soon here on the Playground.
    Check it out!

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lactantius View Post
    A diviner is a specialist of wizards.
    Thouh divination and divine spellcasting sound similiar, they are two difference things.

    So, yes, going for a diviner is talking about arcane magic.
    You start right off as a specialist at level 1.
    You could go later on for divine oracle, though, I find it a bit of a lackluster. The real divination stuff comes at level 1-3.
    Evasion and uncanny dodge are nice, but IMHO not really associated with being a divine character.
    The capstone at level 10 is powerful, yes. But I would not spend 10 levels with boring progression between it.
    I couldn't agree more. I checked it out and it's a lot like trying to bring Divination more into combat (specifically defense). Yawn. But a couple level dips look great! Ohh, I'll have to look at spell progression and mixing arcane with divine magic, though. That could get weird. lol

    Speaking of divine magic, what about an Archivist? I jsut remembered that they can select spells from any spell list, right? Only divine, though. Is it worth it to go divine magic just for the great selection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lactantius View Post
    At the moment, I am working on a semi-hombrewed prestige class.
    It is based on the wizards of high sorcery, which cou can find in the dragonlance supplement "Towers of High Sorcery."

    The class gives options based on your choice of magic "theme."
    You go as white, red or black wizard (robe).
    So, you get a focus with the correspondent magic schools.
    Since I want to play a mix of a diviner and abjurer, I choose white robe.
    It reflects perfectly the theme of a good-aligned, caring wizard who uses magic to do good and hunts down those who use magic in evil or irresponsible ways.

    The prestige class itselfs works a bit like a Loremaster. You learn secrets associated with your specialty schools (in my case, abjuration and divination).
    I will present the class soon here on the Playground.
    Check it out!
    Very groovy! Will do! I'm not sure what the DM will think, but I'm certainly interested.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Remember, a lot of Divination spells are actually skill-enhancing spells...

    Loresong, Ancient Knowledge, Scholar's Touch, Skillful Moment, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Spontaneous Search.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Remember, a lot of Divination spells are actually skill-enhancing spells...

    Loresong, Ancient Knowledge, Scholar's Touch, Skillful Moment, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, Spontaneous Search.
    I've got a lot of good spells I want to use, thanks to Tsuyoshi's Guide. These are nice, but especially around low levels I'd like a not-so-spell hungry way of being a skill monkey. Can you think of anything in addition to spells?

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Well, that misses out on a lot of Dragon Magazine spells like the ones I mentioned...

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Unfortunately, Dragon Magazine is a no-go for us.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Well not all of them were from Dragon Magazine.

    Go search for divination wizard 1 spells here:
    http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php

    And then do the same for wizard 2, and on.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Well not all of them were from Dragon Magazine.

    Go search for divination wizard 1 spells here:
    http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php

    And then do the same for wizard 2, and on.
    Many thanks!

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [D&D 3.5] Diviner character?

    The strength of divination lies in using it before combat begins, not in the middle of it.
    This strength can be categorized into pure utility and foreseeing.
    Utility is the "all-around-package" you can apply.
    Foreseeing is the ability to get omens, get warned of upcoming events and maybe choose the battlescene. But don't get it wrong: contrary to most OP-statements, predicting and planning the next encounter ir more theoretical than useable actually in adventures.

    The foreshadowing, seer-stuff can be used to give the DM some tools to give the PCs infos (divine/mystical message stuff).

    The real good one are on the cleric list, tho (augury, divination and commune). That's what makes the oracle domain so good. Otoh, a wizard has exact the same tool but get penalized (contact other plane). Since I don't see the point why a cleric should divine better than a wizard, I jsut ignore the CoP-penalties.
    But that's a houserule and wecan livewith it since no one abuses CoP in such a manner like the OP on this boards recommend it.

    Concerning my prestige class, I will post it soon.
    What I can say until now is that you could make it a 10-level-class, but I designed it for my own use only for 6 levels because I tend to mix in the Io7V afterwards. It has the same earlier entry like a master specialist (after level 3). So, i have the final build with wizard 3 / white robe 6 /Io7V 7.
    Stay tuned!

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