Skyrim V: Skyrim

[Avilan the Grey]

The thing is that the College quest actually has at least one quest, where you're better off swinging an axe. The magic anamolies are actually nearly immune to magic, and take more damage from weapons.

That goes for all these quests, I think. The main quest for the college ends with an enemy designed to be VERY hard for mages. For a ranged rogue? Not so much. A lot of companion quests and thief guild quests can be solved easier if you are a mage.

Okay, I can see the merit in complaints that you should probably be good at magic before you get made the Archmage. But sneakiness being a pre-requisite for being in charge of the Thieves' Guild? There's plenty of scope for straight up violence in being the leader of a gang of criminals.

Are we talking about becoming head of the guild, or becoming a Nightingale? The skeleton key quest with its obvious sneak test makes sense, since you are trying to impress your goddess, so you do whatever test she tells you to.

[Volthawk]

Another University thing that requires magic is that dwemer light-beam focusing thing (name escapes me) that you need to use fire and frost spells on to move the lens around so the light goes into certain places.

[Tergon]

Being leader of a gang of outlaws does carry a certain violent theme, it's true. But given that there's meant to be a specific comparison between the three branches - Combat, Stealth and Magic - the Thieves' Guild questline is really something you'd expect to involve more stealth than it does. It's one thing to say that you can fight your way through the quests if you want, but it's quite another to say that at no point in the questline do you actually need to use stealth. You can legitimately fight your way through the entire questline if that's what you're in the mood for. And hell, even if you do decide to go the traditional Thief path and focus only on stealth, there's the penultimate quest:

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You know, the one where you are straight-out forced to get into a close-quarters fight with Mercer, who's a legitimately tough opponent with some very dangerous weaponry. Without the ability to fight, you're going to lose this one.

You don't even have the option of stealthing your way through that part. You absolutely have to fight. And that means that as far as Skyrim is concerned, doing the Thieves' Guild questline to its conclusion at no point requires you to be a thief, but does at one point require you to be either a warrior or a mage. Be honest, does that seem right to you?

I'm just saying that if you're going to put me in charge of a guild that spans the nation of Skyrim and is the most famous (or infamous) gathering of people who make use of combat skill, magical talent, or the ability to be sneaky, you should at some point force me to prove that I'm good enough at that respective talent to lead the guild. A little overlap between the different schools is fine - hell, I encourage that, because it'd be lame if there was none - but still. You want me to lead Skyrim's greatest and oldest warrior clan, you give me a sword or an axe or a mace, you lock me in a pit with an angry cave bear, and you make me prove I damn well deserve it. And then maybe at the end of the questline, I'd feel like I did, and I'd be satisfied.

Another University thing that requires magic is that dwemer light-beam focusing thing (name escapes me) that you need to use fire and frost spells on to move the lens around so the light goes into certain places.

Ah, I had the feeling I'd forgotten one. Still, that makes me about as impressed as the other quests - you already have one of the required spells at the very start of the game, the other required spell is of an equal mastery level, and just in case you somehow lack either one you're pointed toward nearby books that will teach you how to use both of them. There's no puzzle about which spells to use or any creative way in which you need to use them - you're told exactly what to do, given the tools to do it with, and then it's just a matter of clicking the right number of times. That doesn't make you Arch-Mage, that makes you a kid trying to figure out how to use the kiln in Art class. It's not creative, it's not satisfying, and it certainly didn't make me feel like I deserved to be put in charge of an entire damn University.

[Goosefeather]

And hell, even if you do decide to go the traditional Thief path and focus only on stealth, there's the penultimate quest:

Spoiler

Show

You know, the one where you are straight-out forced to get into a close-quarters fight with Mercer, who's a legitimately tough opponent with some very dangerous weaponry. Without the ability to fight, you're going to lose this one.

You don't even have the option of stealthing your way through that part. You absolutely have to fight. And that means that as far as Skyrim is concerned, doing the Thieves' Guild questline to its conclusion at no point requires you to be a thief, but does at one point require you to be either a warrior or a mage. Be honest, does that seem right to you?

To be fair, you can just

Spoiler

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lead him up to the top of the area and Fus Ro Dah him off the ledge, if you position yourself right.

[Tergon]

True, but if you're able to do that, then you've already fought Mirmulnir and, it's highly likely, Sahloknir. And that's assuming you've managed to get this far in the Thieves' Guild questline as well as the main questline, traveling about overland to a large extent, without bumping into any other dragons on the map. The point being, you've proven yourself capable of fighting a dragon already, something that doesn't really involve the stealth skills at all.

For this to not be true, then you hid in the tower while the Whiterun Guards killed Mirmulnir, retrieved the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller by sneaking past all the draugr, were savvy enough to not go and fight Sahloknir, dodged all the dragons that randomly spawn on the map, levelled up Unrelenting Force, and then understood what you were doing in the penultimate Thieves' Guild quest enough to get into the right position to win the battle with your Shout rather than by fighting.

Option one: You're at least as much a warrior as a thief, probably moreso.
Option two: You've clearly done this before and know how to exploit the plot.

Neither one is exactly true to being a stealthy pickpocket who's exploring Skyrim for the first time, is what I'm saying. And even if doing so isn't the optimal course, I sort of feel like it should be at least possible, you know?

[Wyntonian]

Freaking killstealing giants!

I was attacked by my first-ever random dragon, to the west of Whiterun. I was relatively sure I was royally screwed, but lo and behold, a group of Thalmor Justiciars showed up and commenced wailing on it. I had some fun arrowing it from behind for a while, and let them duke it out, until it flew off, leaving the Thalmors dead. It then ate a pack of wolves, while I continued to shoot it full of arrows. Then it attacked a random orc traveler. While I shot it as fast as I could. Then it flew over to a giant camp, while I followed, shooting it as fast as I could click. I killed one giant, then got smacked down by the other, which then came after me. The Whirlwind Sprint shout saved me, but all I got was two levels of Marksman and an empty quiver.

Is this a common thing, dragon AI being completely screwed up such that it would attack four distinct targets, three of them non-aggressive, while ignoring the thing that's shaving pixels off its health bar?

[Gaelbert]

True, but if you're able to do that, then you've already fought Mirmulnir and, it's highly likely, Sahloknir. And that's assuming you've managed to get this far in the Thieves' Guild questline as well as the main questline, traveling about overland to a large extent, without bumping into any other dragons on the map. The point being, you've proven yourself capable of fighting a dragon already, something that doesn't really involve the stealth skills at all.

For this to not be true, then you hid in the tower while the Whiterun Guards killed Mirmulnir, retrieved the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller by sneaking past all the draugr, were savvy enough to not go and fight Sahloknir, dodged all the dragons that randomly spawn on the map, levelled up Unrelenting Force, and then understood what you were doing in the penultimate Thieves' Guild quest enough to get into the right position to win the battle with your Shout rather than by fighting.

This actually was my first playthrough, without any plot spoilers. Once I got to Riverside, I literally pickpocketed every single person between Whiterun and Riften. Got my stealth and pickpocket skills up to 100, went back to Whiterun, did the first few missions of the main plot, then went back to Riften and ran through the Thieves Guild.

[Triaxx]

The thing is that this is an Elder Scrolls game where like the D&D game it's based off of, some fighting is expected. And not a Fallout game, where you can in theory talk your way through just about everything.

And those two spells you need to do that mages guild quest? The spell tomes for them are right there on a table.

[Calemyr]

The thing is that this is an Elder Scrolls game where like the D&D game it's based off of, some fighting is expected. And not a Fallout game, where you can in theory talk your way through just about everything.

And those two spells you need to do that mages guild quest? The spell tomes for them are right there on a table.

Of course. The spell tomes are readily available every time you need a spell, even if you needed the same spell for a previous mission. Labyrinthian also has spell requirements: the elemental guardians that open the path can only be summoned by using the appropriate element on a given door (frost on the fire door, fire on the ice door), and the first tome of that element is always handy. One could say the university's quest line isn't about reliance on magic (quite the opposite, really, because your enemies tend to be designed to counter magic, particularly Morokei), but rather the clever application of magic.

[Flickerdart]

It's not creative, it's not satisfying, and it certainly didn't make me feel like I deserved to be put in charge of an entire damn University.

You're not actually in charge of anything. Just try telling someone to do something! Aside from making decisions about junk the College finds and dealing with Ancano I don't think the previous Archmage did anything at all.

[Calemyr]

You're not actually in charge of anything. Just try telling someone to do something! Aside from making decisions about junk the College finds and dealing with Ancano I don't think the previous Archmage did anything at all.

True. The archmage is more or less a figurehead. It's their second in command (Tolfdir for you) that does the actual management. The point of the archmage is to be the biggest badass they can find, so that the university can point to him/her and say "you mess with us, you mess with that".

Put another way, the archmage is the University's equivalent to the court wizard position: a crisis management role, rather than a day-to-day management role. As Farengar describes his job, his primary responsibility is to be there when something alien or magical draws the concern of the Jarl. When that happens, he is the one who is supposed to analyse the situation, derive and present possible solutions, and implement whichever the Jarl decides. The archmage is similar, not being involved in day-to-day, but being ready and able to take charge and fix things when they get ugly - the ideal role for a Dragonborn.

[Morty]

I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that enemy mages don't actually run out of Magicka... or at least have a lot more of it than they should.

[Tono]

I've force them to resort to the dagger a couple of times by bleeding them dry, so I think they can run out. I also think they have reeealy good regen though, so that may be what you're feeling.

[Lamech]

I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that enemy mages don't actually run out of Magicka... or at least have a lot more of it than they should.

And? Do you run out of magicka or something?

Also, for all you PC gamer's out there, while the other guys may have dawnguard, werewolves and vampires, we can have KITTIES.

[Morty]

I've force them to resort to the dagger a couple of times by bleeding them dry, so I think they can run out. I also think they have reeealy good regen though, so that may be what you're feeling.

They do resort to daggers at times, but they seem to spam attack spells for an inodrinately long time.

And? Do you run out of magicka or something?

I combat? Yes, I kind of do.

[nhbdy]

I combat? Yes, I kind of do.

why, is there a person who doesn't? (not counting a mage fight with the atronach sign or enchanting shenanigans)

the ai mages seem to have it so much better in general...

[Calemyr]

why, is there a person who doesn't? (not counting a mage fight with the atronach sign or enchanting shenanigans)

the ai mages seem to have it so much better in general...

The point is that the enemy mages have so much magicka and such high regen that they never seem to be exhausted - or at least not exhausted long. Speaking as a caster who is always dancing on the last quarter of my magicka pool, that can be quite frustrating. But that's always the problem with enemy mages - they don't have to worry about sustainability or survivability, they can use everything they have against you every time and can be built specifically to give them maximum magicka.

As for non-enchanting shenanigans, Morokei and the Archmage's Robes combine nicely to allow you to keep magic up without touching a single soul gem.

[Morty]

I'm unwilling to wear the Dragon Priest Masks on a regular basis. They just look too goofy. I put on Krosis when I do alchemy, though.
Also, is it weird that I'm level 25 but have trouble finding souls better than Lesser? It's putting a damper on my enchanting efforts...

[Zale]

Perhaps you could kill Mammoths?

They have Grand Souls.

[Morty]

Well, it would also cause Giants to attack me, providing a supply of Giants' Toes. So it might not be a bad plan.

[Calemyr]

Giants have greater, mammoths have grand, and most humans have grand.

A handy trick is that if you drop a soul gem that isn't fully filled, the gem will be empty when you pick it up again. Got a common in your greater? You can empty it like this. This is really, really handy when working with black soul gems.

[Morty]

I do have a bunch of lesser souls in my Common soul gems. As a result of assuming that Draugr Wights would have Common souls. So yeah, it's handy to know. Thanks.

[TheEmerged]

Also, is it weird that I'm level 25 but have trouble finding souls better than Lesser? It's putting a damper on my enchanting efforts...

Nope. If you haven't already gotten your hands on the Black Star, correct that. Buy any Black Soul Gems you find laying around in merchant inventories as well. Since I quickly found I had more stuff to sell than the merchants could buy, I ended up buying most of my Grand Soul Gems or using the Black Star. I also ended up making a fair amount of enchanted jewelry since most of the merchants that sell soul gems will buy that item.

And again, remember that training Enchanting is based on the value of the item created - and certain enchants are worth a lot more than others. "Muffle" is particularly good to burn your weaker gems (petty/lesser) on since it is always the same value regardless of the power of the gem. Otherwise, keep trolling merchants until you find Banish & Paralyze.

Oh, and that gem-dropping trick saved my sanity when I found out about it. That's the one potential problem with that Conjuration perk that otherwise turns you into a soul-trapping machine...

[Calemyr]

I do have a bunch of lesser souls in my Common soul gems. As a result of assuming that Draugr Wights would have Common souls. So yeah, it's handy to know. Thanks.

Also, Soul gems are usually very available from court wizards such as Farengar. Even better, the court wizard of Morthal dabbles in the dark, so he's always got two black soul gems for sale when his stock refreshes.

Easy way to do this? Start at Riften, get any materials you want from the alchemist, blacksmith, court wizard, and general store. Then go to Solitude. Do the same. Then go to Morthal, Whiterun, and Riverwood and visit the stores accordingly. Then go to Riften again and begin the cycle again. It takes a bit longer than 48 hours to complete the circle (without a horse, at least), so the stores should restock by the time you get back. If you've got the coin, it's an easy way to stockpile resources for craft grinding.

[Morty]

I haven't gotten the Black Star yet, because the guy inside it is so crazy powerful I just went "Yeah, no" and decided to leave it for later.
As for the craft grinding route... I'll consider it. Craft grinding is really tedious and I don't feel like doing it now. Also, it never occured to me that having a horse shortens fast travel time. Not that it really matters, but still...

[BladeofObliviom]

I haven't gotten the Black Star yet, because the guy inside it is so crazy powerful I just went "Yeah, no" and decided to leave it for later.
As for the craft grinding route... I'll consider it. Craft grinding is really tedious and I don't feel like doing it now. Also, it never occured to me that having a horse shortens fast travel time. Not that it really matters, but still...

Malyn Veryn can be pretty damn tough at low levels, I'll admit. I had the misfortune of trying to fight him at level 13 with a pure warrior who didn't know any wards.

However, his summoned minions tend to do greater damage than he does, and I don't think they know any spells other than Firebolt. Thus, Resist Fire potions are your friend.

[nhbdy]

Malyn Veryn can be pretty damn tough at low levels, I'll admit. I had the misfortune of trying to fight him at level 13 with a pure warrior who didn't know any wards.

However, his summoned minions tend to do greater damage than he does, and I don't think they know any spells other than Firebolt. Thus, Resist Fire potions are your friend.

odd, I usually face him at low levels (<10) and have few troubles with him, just have to burn a potion or two before he drops, granted I am usually online with atronach (the stone, not the perk) by then but still...

[Morty]

I fought him around level 20, I think, and was overwhelmed by fireballs and summoned Daedra.
Also, I ran across a serious bug. In the Cornered Rat quest, Esbern won't open his door. From what I've read, it's a known bug...

[Triaxx]

Unless I'm a pure mage, or a certain type of thief, I typically wait until 14, then abuse the Sanguine Rose.

[BladeofObliviom]

odd, I usually face him at low levels (<10) and have few troubles with him, just have to burn a potion or two before he drops, granted I am usually online with atronach (the stone, not the perk) by then but still...

Yeah, that'll do it. The Atronach Stone pretty much drops you a difficulty level downwards for the fight. He's also easier as a mage, since you can defend yourself with wards.

I fought him around level 20, I think, and was overwhelmed by fireballs and summoned Daedra.

Yeah, that'll happen. Remember, when it comes to fights with powerful humanoid enemies that you can't loot anyway on treacherous terrain with lethal falls on both sides, FUS RO DAH is your friend. Remember, you don't have to loot anything of Malyn, and he'll die eventually if you knock him off a cliff.

Also, when dealing with enemies that only use fire, Resist Potions are also your friend.