Metal Thread VII: The Mosh Pit Don't Start 'Til We Walk In

[Feytalist]

No-one has mentioned Jari yet? Heh, I'm surprised.

I'm fine with an overabundance of subgenres. Music isn't something that is easily catagorised in any case. Even something as obsessed with, er... purity as metal, usually. It does get a bit much when you lay on modifier after modifier, but accuracy is never really a bad thing. Usually. Probably.

[Killer Angel]

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.

That's true, but, unless you're discussing with someone with your level of knowledge, you're just tossing around terms. Sometime, even if you have at disposal a precise sub-genre, if you want to describe the vibe of a band, it's better to make a reference to a greater genre, adding some descriptive element.

That said, enjoy some Skyforger.

[grimbold]

I completely beg to differ. If you walk down the street and ask people at random to elucidate the difference between house, techno, and trance, and then walk down a different street and inquire vis a vis death, doom, and black metal, I imagine you'll get pretty similar results.

eh... maybe its just europe but a lot of people seem to know what house techno and trance are. And those subgenres are much more popular overall too. I mean, in general, i've noticed that genre tags on music websites are more likely to have seperate tags for house, techno and trance than for death doom and black metal.

Again, i think this might must be because electric music is so much more popular
but i really have to differ with you there moff...
wanna talk it out on facebook?

[Moff Chumley]

eh... maybe its just europe but a lot of people seem to know what house techno and trance are

That's definitely a European thing, I don't think there's a real techno scene in America and there hasn't been for a while. Trance still gets played, but it's still pretty niche. And house is just mislabeled and misrepresented constantly.

And those subgenres are much more popular overall too. I mean, in general, i've noticed that genre tags on music websites are more likely to have seperate tags for house, techno and trance than for death doom and black metal.

Last.fm doesn't really agree.
Techno-320,000 tags (many or most, probably inaccurate)
Death Metal-635,00 tags
Trance-381,000 tags
Black Metal-749,000 tags
House-355,000 tags
Doom Metal-268,000 tags

Make of that what you will. There are perhaps more people vaguely familiar with electronic subgenres than metal, but if we're discussing folks with more than a passing familiarity (the sorts that'd be able to identify subgenres and whatnot), it's been my experience that metal's pretty well exposed. I can't help but observe that metal's the only genre that's sustained multiple threads on this forum; the multiple attempts we've had at electronic threads fizzled out after a few pages. Probably says more about this forum's demographics than anything else, but I thought it was worth observing.

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.

I think the problem there is a band like Moonsorrow (I'll take your word for it) isn't well-represented by a simple genre tag like black metal, but Alcest and the like are completely well represented by the shoegaze label.
Also, if you like Alcest and similar, why not check out more shoegaze? If you'd like some recommendations feel free to shoot me a PM, I'd like to think I've built a pretty sizable collection by now.

[Feytalist]

So in about a week's time the new Finsterforst album is coming out.

This is awesome, because we always need more accordions. Also it's about damn time.

[grimbold]

alright moff
well played

in other news
i tried to explain NSBM to my philosophy class...
that did not go over well...

also
i went to a concert friday night
i did not expect i would have to explain to my whole grade what a mosh pit was and how i got my black eye on monday

[Nameless]

Again, I disagree. I know metal has more of a tradition of purism than most genres, and your average Slowdive fan might not have a ton in common with your average metalhead, but that shouldn't matter. A lot of the shoegaze fans I know, both of us (based on your posts in this thread) included, love stoner metal and drone metal. We're totally fine with claiming we like some metal, why do metalheads have to insist Alcest is anything other than shoegaze?

This.

Like I said, there's a reason why it's generally referred to as "Black Metal Shoegaze" as opposed to "Shoegaze Black Metal". Just like Folk Metal is Metal with Folk influences, Black Metal Shoegaze is Shoegaze with Black Metal influences, and just like like Melodic death Metal is Death Metal with Melody that's sometimes shortened to "Melodeath Metal", Black Metal Shoegaze is sometimes shortened to "Blackgaze".
I don't see how people can say "Blackgaze doesn't exists", when they're perfectly okay with other fusion genres. It's just a way of quickly describing a sound.
When it comes to sub genres and such, the thing I don't really get when people label something based on it's themes or lyrics, rather then it's sound. To me something like "Vampiric Black Metal" or "Pagan Metal" is far more ridiculous then sub-genres based on the actual sound.

[Killer Angel]

When it comes to sub genres and such, the thing I don't really get when people label something based on it's themes or lyrics, rather then it's sound. To me something like "Vampiric Black Metal" or "Pagan Metal" is far more ridiculous then sub-genres based on the actual sound.

I could agree, but when you're giving a precise label to the sound, you can as well label also the thematics, so the listener can be more (or less) interested. So, Vampiric Black Metal and Pagan Black Metal.
I believe those are some of the excesses AllIHaveIsCrunk was refering to.

[grimbold]

On topic: I'm with KA for the most part

Off topic:
For school I have to write a thesis paper. It's due next year (its kind of a huge deal)
My topic?
How did the work of Chuck Schuldiner evolve over the course of his musical career?

(that research question isn't 100% tight yet I know, but the general idea is to understand the evolution of Chucks work)

[Faulty]

The problem with blackgaze is that I have never heard "black metal influenced shoegaze". MAYBE a few riffs in a few Alcest songs, and some harsh vocals over shoegaze, but that'd be like calling Psyclon Nine black metal because they have screechy vocals and metal-esque guitars on occassion.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm with Faulty on this. For a fusion genre to be a valid thing, like, say, noise pop (noise rock+dream pop), there's gotta be lots of elements drawn from both (or all) root genres, and the result has to be distinct from its influences. Alcest may be black metal-inspired shoegaze, but let's be real: shoegaze accounts for about 90% of their sound, and aside from a few details, they're pretty indistinguishable from your average, generic shoegaze.

Also, I personally find the notion of purely theme-based subgenres absolutely ridiculous, and I can't think of any other genres of which that's a feature. Even subgenres with associated subject matters (space rock, west-coast gangsta rap, emo (the emotive post-hardcore kind, not the MCR kind)) also have completely distinct sounds and sonic aesthetics.

[Nameless]

The problem with blackgaze is that I have never heard "black metal influenced shoegaze". MAYBE a few riffs in a few Alcest songs, and some harsh vocals over shoegaze, but that'd be like calling Psyclon Nine black metal because they have screechy vocals and metal-esque guitars on occassion.

Fun fact: Neige didn't know what Shoegaze was until people started comparing his music to it and he discovered Slow Drive much later.

Alcest have a mixture of songs which have no Black Metal elements, and songs which do in different levels, particularly in the vocals and guitars (sometimes in the drumming as well). Even though the guitars are rarely true kvlt black \m/etal, the tone and technique is very reminiscent. This song, for example, falls in and out of it, and to me, this and this are pretty good examples of Black Metal sounds and vocals with Shoegaze riffs and melodies.

Same with bands like Heretoir, Thranenkind, Dernier Martyr and Amesoeurs

EDIT: Also, about Psyclon Nine, it would depend on what album. Their earlier sound is very Aggrotech, but with each album, Nero's music seems to have more and more Industrial Metal and Black Metal influences, particularly on We the Fallen.

But that's besides the point, no one is calling any of these bands Black Metal, so I don't see the comparison you're trying to make. They're calling them Blackgaze... because, you know... they're not Black Metal.

[grimbold]

oh genre wars...
i guess i'll step out and have a beer break

[Faulty]

I'm with Faulty on this. For a fusion genre to be a valid thing, like, say, noise pop (noise rock+dream pop), there's gotta be lots of elements drawn from both (or all) root genres, and the result has to be distinct from its influences. Alcest may be black metal-inspired shoegaze, but let's be real: shoegaze accounts for about 90% of their sound, and aside from a few details, they're pretty indistinguishable from your average, generic shoegaze.

Also, I personally find the notion of purely theme-based subgenres absolutely ridiculous, and I can't think of any other genres of which that's a feature. Even subgenres with associated subject matters (space rock, west-coast gangsta rap, emo (the emotive post-hardcore kind, not the MCR kind)) also have completely distinct sounds and sonic aesthetics.

Congratulations on the 666th post. :v

[Nameless]

oh genre wars...
i guess i'll step out and have a beer break

Nah, genre wars go something like this.

Guy 1:"TURISAS IS THE BEST FOLK METAL BAND EVER!!!!111!1oneoneeleventy"
Guy 2: "Dude, wtf you on about? Turisas are Viking Power Metal. -_-"
Me: *scrapes my face with a cheese grater*

This is debating the existence of a genre. Different.

[Hawkfrost000]

Me: *scrapes my face with a cheese grater*

Now thats shredding!

DM

[Nameless]

Now thats shredding!

DM

[grimbold]

Nah, genre wars go something like this.

Guy 1:"TURISAS IS THE BEST FOLK METAL BAND EVER!!!!111!1oneoneeleventy"
Guy 2: "Dude, wtf you on about? Turisas are Viking Power Metal. -_-"
Me: *scrapes my face with a cheese grater*

This is debating the existence of a genre. Different.

pfft
same difference

[RebelRogue]

(Sub)genre discussions tend to be tiring and pointless, IMO.

[grimbold]

(Sub)genre discussions tend to be tiring and pointless, IMO.

i'm with the sensei

[godspit]

Has anybody figured out why she quit? I really liked her.

Edit: Apparently this is why.

[Comrade]

The link doesn't work, but as I understand it, from Cerebral Bore's facebook page she commented that it was because Paul McGuire is a control freak and she couldn't stand working with him anymore. Then again, her comment was deleted afterwards in very short order :v

It's a real shame. To be frank, I always thought of Cerebral Bore as at best a pretty generic brutal death metal band with an awesome vocalist; might make me sound kinda like a tool but Som's vocals were really the only reason I got into Cerebral Bore.

[godspit]

Same here honestly. Her vocals were amazing.

[grimbold]

indeed,
its cool when a bands vocalist is so good their growls differentiate the band

[Sgt. Cookie]

New. Ayreon. Album. 2013?

OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODO HMYGOdOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOH MYGODOHMYGOoOHMYGODOHMYGOD.

DAMN IT TIME TRAVEL, WHY DO YOU NOT EXIST?!

Ahem. Sorry about that. Is anyone else as excited as me?

[Feytalist]

Never really something I cared much about.

I am, however, excited about the new Finsterforst, which should be coming out today. Sounds like people are saying it's pretty good. Which is awesome.

[grimbold]

so um
new aeon is pretty sweet
which i'm trying to get for free from metal blade *crosses fingers*

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I've recently acquired the taste for glam metal. Some of it is pretty cool, actually. It's like power metal, with a similar melodic emphasis and uber-accesibility but with a tad more self awareness and a tad fewer mind shatteringly horrible lyrics. Also glam metal tends to eschew power metal's production tomfoolery.

Actually the two are nothing alike, come to think of it. In any case, got me a Dokken album and I'm gonna listen to it.

(the emotive post-hardcore kind, not the MCR kind))

Not to be pedantic (yeah right) but MCR really isn't any kind of emo at all, even emo-pop. It's closer to rock opera than emo. Of course I'm only going by one album

Sorry about that. Is anyone else as excited as me?

From the scowl that materialized upon my face when I heard the news I'd say if anyone is as excited, it's not me.

[grimbold]

I've recently acquired the taste for glam metal. Some of it is pretty cool, actually. It's like power metal, with a similar melodic emphasis and uber-accesibility but with a tad more self awareness and a tad fewer mind shatteringly horrible lyrics. Also glam metal tends to eschew power metal's production tomfoolery.

Actually the two are nothing alike, come to think of it. In any case, got me a Dokken album and I'm gonna listen to it.

i feel the same as you do but was never willing to 'fess up because i knew moff would make fun of me....

oops

[Moff Chumley]

Not to be pedantic (yeah right) but MCR really isn't any kind of emo at all, even emo-pop. It's closer to rock opera than emo. Of course I'm only going by one album.

Of course they're not, but I'm sure you understand why I made the distinction. I don't think the playground has a ton of emotive post-hardcore fans.

i feel the same as you do but was never willing to 'fess up because i knew moff would make fun of me....

oops

I won't make fun of you, Grimmy. Just silently judge.