Metal Thread VII: The Mosh Pit Don't Start 'Til We Walk In

[Feytalist]

A Kamelot album without Simone Simons!? WAT.

Also, am I really the only person who found Ghost Opera kind of...bland?

Heh. Yeah, it just feels wrong, doesn't it?

Nah, you're not alone. I've had quite a few arguments with my friends about it. I happen to like Ghost Opera. It's not the greatest album ever, but the songs are solid, and there's no real bad spot on the album. No one song really stands out, though. Also I happen to think it has some of Khan's best moments on it, here and there.

[Feytalist]

HAHAHA WHAT

Tiamat released a new album last week.

Damn I hope it's good.

[grimbold]

Anyone dig Kowloon Walled City?

They're pretty great.

dude
this stuff is fantastic
HOW DID YOU FIND THIS MOFF?

[Moff Chumley]

dude
this stuff is fantastic
HOW DID YOU FIND THIS MOFF?

Someone linked to this on a gear forum I used to post on.

[Feytalist]

New Tiamat album is actually rather good. Couple of solid songs. Much better than Amanethes was, but slightly more aggressive than Skeleton Skeletron and the rest. Nice balance.

Drums sound as if they were recorded in a cave, though. Very odd.

[grimbold]

comrade

that is awesome



in other news
http://www.metalsucks.net/2012/11/14...-cover-mayhem/
OH MY GOD YES

[Feytalist]

Accidentally listened to some In Flames again last night. I had forgotten how good their earlier stuff actually is. Whoracle is quite excellent.

Maybe I was just in the mood.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Now what the hell is blackgaze? Isn't black metal and the various fractal subgenres and sub-subgenres convoluted and labyrinthine enough without adding shoegaze to the gene pool? Can't we have Melodic Black Metal with low pitched vocals or Atmospheric Black Metal with a semi-melodic focus? This entire thing is giving me a headache.

And now people are talking about blackgrass? Oh to hell with it. Let's JJ Abrams this mess and reboot the whole thing. Alright guys, all metal is now "Heavy Metal" and we'll sort out the rest as we go along. First level subgenres will be autoapproved but second level subgenres and fusions will have to be cleared with the board. Third level subgenres will be punishable by death. Should deter horrible shambling creations like "Atmospheric Blackened Death Metal".

[Faulty]

I refuse to believe blackgaze is a thing. At best it's just shoegaze with black metal vocals which IMO doesn't change the genre. It'd be like saying instrumental hip-hop isn't hip-hop because there's no rapping.

[Nameless]

The term "Blackgaze" only came about because artists started creating Shoegaze with elements from Black Metal. So, naturally, people started saying "Black Metal Shoegaze" as an easy way to describe it. Note that "Black Metal" comes before "Shoegaze" instead of the other way around. That's because it's Shoegaze, not Black Metal. I guess "Blackgaze" just came about because it's easier to say then "Black Metal Shoegaze". Kind of like how people say "Melodeath Metal" instead of "Melodic Death Metal".

[Faulty]

I don't like calling melodeath "melodic death metal" because that insinuates that it's real death metal. lolz

[Moff Chumley]

"Blackgaze" has always cracked me up because it's applying metal naming conventions to what is fundamentally an offshoot of indie rock. No one calls The Telescopes noisegaze, no one calls Astrobrite shoepop. Even though both bands are farther from the shoegaze paradigm than most of the blackgaze I've heard. From a shoegaze point of view, Alcest and the like are just shoegaze.

[RebelRogue]

Speaking of Alcest, I saw them live as support for Katatonia the other day. Good shows, both of them. Alcest's mix could have been slightly better I think - the drums were a bit too punchy and the guitars too low, at least for the mellower parts. But that's minor details.

[godspit]

I just call it "Blackened Shoegaze". I agree with Faulty though, just because it's shoegaze with black metal elements it doesn't mean it's nessessarily black metal. Same thing goes with blackened death metal in my "oh so humble" opinion.

Edit: Found these guys a couple of weeks ago and they're pretty awesome

[Moff Chumley]

Niegecore also works.

Fun fact, if you google niegecore one of the top results is one of my posts from earlier in the thread.

[JoshL]

I'm also for just calling Alcest shoegazer, and I love them very much. Genres for bands are only really good for marketing anyway. I can see why metal fans might not be ready to associate with, say, Slowdive fans, so a gradual gateway drug as it were might not be a bad thing.

That said, a lot of the metal influenced shoegaze and post-metal (Jesu, Isis, Sun O))), etc) is what got me listening to more metal these days anyway. Sleep's "Dopesmoker" really blew my mind when I heard it.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

It's not really about blackgaze specifically, it's about the whole system, man. It's the fact that every single nichey fusion or experimentation seems to be getting its own subgenre these days. Especially frustrating for metal given what a difficult to navigate behemoth it already was.

[godspit]

It's an eventuality to pretty much everything. A lot of mediums (music genres, book genres, movie genres, etc. etc.) have the same problem. Not to say your point isn't valid though, it can be head-ache inducing getting all the sub-genres straight.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

It's an eventuality to pretty much everything. A lot of mediums (music genres, book genres, movie genres, etc. etc.) have the same problem. Not to say your point isn't valid though, it can be head-ache inducing getting all the sub-genres straight.

Yeah and I can tolerate it to an extent but in my experience metal has it worse than anything else. That's why I'm kicking up a fuss here of all places.

[ex cathedra]

Yeah and I can tolerate it to an extent but in my experience metal has it worse than anything else. That's why I'm kicking up a fuss here of all places.

I would be inclined to disagree. Perhaps you're just more familiar with metal, so it seems more pronounced? Most genres open up considerably once you immerse yourself in them, and I don't think that metal is particularly more diverse than most. It definitely doesn't strike me as being larger than the electronica supergenre.

[grimbold]

the opener of the show i saw last night
has thing song called "I hate you"
last time i saw them live
the singer was just running around the pit
because it was a smaller venue
this time he was leaning over into the pit
screaming I HAAAATE YOUUUUU
into everyones face
SO METAL
especialy when the dude is like 6 inches off your face
i had a good time


expect a full review forthwith

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I would be inclined to disagree. Perhaps you're just more familiar with metal, so it seems more pronounced? Most genres open up considerably once you immerse yourself in them, and I don't think that metal is particularly more diverse than most. It definitely doesn't strike me as being larger than the electronica supergenre.

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

[JoshL]

Electronic music is pretty fragmented too (language warning on both some of the audio samples and description...I mean, this is a metal thread, but better safe than sorry)

Also, bear in mind this chart is almost 10 years old now, and doesn't include most of what electroncia is these days, as you mentioned. For me, the particular lack is doomcore (take a dark ambient album and throw in some mid-tempo hardcore beats). He has that listed as another name for terrorcore, but it's become something different (and I think better). And even at the time, he didn't really bother with the various subgenres of noise. Though, to be fair, those of us who are noise fans already know that.

It'd be fun to see someone do a similar chart breaking down metal in the same way (my knowledge is not extensive enough to attempt that)

[grimbold]

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

[Makensha]

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

If they know what "growling" is and do not call it "screaming" you're lucky...

Calling it a "death growl" is virtually a random occurrence.

[Moff Chumley]

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

There are just as many bizarre subsubsubgenres and weird fusion genres in electronic music as there are in metal, if not more.

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

I completely beg to differ. If you walk down the street and ask people at random to elucidate the difference between house, techno, and trance, and then walk down a different street and inquire vis a vis death, doom, and black metal, I imagine you'll get pretty similar results.

I can see why metal fans might not be ready to associate with, say, Slowdive fans, so a gradual gateway drug as it were might not be a bad thing.

Again, I disagree. I know metal has more of a tradition of purism than most genres, and your average Slowdive fan might not have a ton in common with your average metalhead, but that shouldn't matter. A lot of the shoegaze fans I know, both of us (based on your posts in this thread) included, love stoner metal and drone metal. We're totally fine with claiming we like some metal, why do metalheads have to insist Alcest is anything other than shoegaze?

That said, a lot of the metal influenced shoegaze and post-metal (Jesu, Isis, Sun O))), etc) is what got me listening to more metal these days anyway. Sleep's "Dopesmoker" really blew my mind when I heard it.

I think the difference between the bands you mentioned, especially Sleep, as opposed to a band like Alcest, is that all of them are from well within the metal tradition. They may borrow elements from post-rock and drone rock, but they're fundamentally all metal bands.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

There are just as many bizarre subsubsubgenres and weird fusion genres in electronic music as there are in metal, if not more.

Maybe it's just because I like electronica more (and thus know more about it) or maybe it's the kind of music people I hang out with but, once again, it's just a cinch for me to navigate. It's big, sure, but it's not as labyrinthine. You get the occasional bizarre fusion here and there but I don't discover those with nearly as much frequency as I pick up some new metal term, which happens practically every day.

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

I wouldn't get them to listen to it. In this hypothetical scenario I would merely be explaining the genres to them. No growling or screaming required.

[Faulty]

Electronic music is pretty fragmented too (language warning on both some of the audio samples and description...I mean, this is a metal thread, but better safe than sorry)

I love that site. I had totally forgotten about it.

Anyway, all language is metaphorical as is so I don't see how subsubgenres and such can hurt anymore than genres themselves, especially those such as doom or black metal, which are so internally varied it's stupid.

[Killer Angel]

It's not really about blackgaze specifically, it's about the whole system, man. It's the fact that every single nichey fusion or experimentation seems to be getting its own subgenre these days.

This isn't limited to HM, but yeah.
Excessive characterizations and divisions of sub-genres is kinda pointless... sometime, it's like it's done just for the sake of it, not for a real need.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

This isn't limited to HM, but yeah.
Excessive characterizations and divisions of sub-genres is kinda pointless... sometime, it's like it's done just for the sake of it, not for a real need.

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.