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    Default [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    DISCLAIMERS
    - I fixed every spell Core spell that I did not cut entirely from D&D. Please note that every single 8th and 9th level spell has been cut.
    - I also included some non-Core spells and made up a whole bunch of new ones, mostly 0-level spells (I particularly like my cantrip snuff). The former have been "fixed" as much as possible while the latter are hopefully too small in scope to need fixing.
    - I do not claim to have done a good job fixing every Core spell in D&D

    The end result, though, is that the below is a 101-page document with the majority of spells in Core D&D "fixed" in some way. For most spells, the fix is minor, something as simple as changing something from a Standard action to a Full-round action. Others require more work: Spells like planar binding and planar ally now have a clause specifically stating that a called creature will not grant wishes. Limited wish and polymorph were completely re-written, and a new spell, divine intervention, was added to basically serve as a limited miracle. Spells schools were shuffled around - there is no more Conjuration (Healing), it's now Necromancy (Healing). The Sorcerer and the Wizard were given semidistinct spell lists; mostly the Wizard gets spells that the Sorcerer does not but the Sorcerer has its share of Sorcerer-only spells. And so on.

    Here's hoping I did at least a passable job. If nothing else I should get props for simply having the patience to go through everything, read every spell and decide whether to keep, cut, or change.

    The Master Spell List

    For reference, here is the latest version of the Rebuild, which contains all the spell lists starting on page 51.

    AN EDIT
    Also I changed spell ranges:
    - Close (10 ft. +5 ft./3 levels)
    - Medium (30 ft. +10 ft./2 levels)
    - Long (50 ft. +10 ft./level)
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-20 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    This is one hell of an impressive effort, sir. My hat's off to you.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Looking at some of the worst lower-level offenders:
    -It looks like you not only didn't nerf mirror image (an extremely powerful defensive spell for its level), but actually strengthened it.
    -Invisibility (also extremely strong) and Greater Invisibility are also not really weakened significantly (they're an FRA rather than standard, but that isn't really much to mitigate the "non-wizards can't see me as long as I stay far enough away from clerics" effect.)
    -Glitterdust was nerfed somewhat by range and casting time, but is still pretty strong.
    -Grease is still way overpowered at least according to the common interpretation; any "lose DEX bonus to AC, no save" spell should be at least 7th level.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Looking at some of the worst lower-level offenders:
    -It looks like you not only didn't nerf mirror image (an extremely powerful defensive spell for its level), but actually strengthened it.
    -Invisibility (also extremely strong) and Greater Invisibility are also not really weakened significantly (they're an FRA rather than standard, but that isn't really much to mitigate the "non-wizards can't see me as long as I stay far enough away from clerics" effect.)
    -Glitterdust was nerfed somewhat by range and casting time, but is still pretty strong.
    -Grease is still way overpowered at least according to the common interpretation; any "lose DEX bonus to AC, no save" spell should be at least 7th level.
    Thank ye kindly; I'll make changes.

    A suggestion for Glitterdust that I've seen is that it should dazzle rather than blind.

    By the way, as long as I'm here, the Internet has been useless in answering this question: what's the difference between a casting time of 1 round and a casting time of 1 full-round action?
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-20 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    The difference:
    -A full-round cast time just uses up both your move and standard actions. If you are hit during your turn, the spell could be interrupted. The spell takes effect at the end of your turn.
    -A 1 round cast time uses both of those as well, but also all of the time between the end of your turn and the beginning of your next one. If you are hit anytime before the beginning of your next turn, it could interrupt the spell. The spell takes effect immediately before the start of your next turn, not at the end of your current one.

    Do you have a list of the spells that you cut laying around? I'm not particularly interested in the larger work because of the loss of 8th and 9th level spells, but it would be interesting to know what you cut from the other levels for reference. And I'm too lazy to do a direct comparison ;-)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkisflux View Post
    The difference:
    -A full-round cast time just uses up both your move and standard actions. If you are hit during your turn, the spell could be interrupted. The spell takes effect at the end of your turn.
    -A 1 round cast time uses both of those as well, but also all of the time between the end of your turn and the beginning of your next one. If you are hit anytime before the beginning of your next turn, it could interrupt the spell. The spell takes effect immediately before the start of your next turn, not at the end of your current one.
    Thank ye kindly.

    Do you have a list of the spells that you cut laying around? I'm not particularly interested in the larger work because of the loss of 8th and 9th level spells, but it would be interesting to know what you cut from the other levels for reference. And I'm too lazy to do a direct comparison ;-)
    I do not, but off the top of my head I do know that a huge portion of Cleric spells took a hit due to the change to the way clerics cast spells. Off the top of my head I do know that I got rid of find traps and knock.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Huge problem here. You have animate dead listed in the Master Spell List as being Death only. That means that necromancer wizards...can never learn basic necromancy. In the sor/wiz spell list from your Rebuild PDF, you list animate dead as being on the list, but the spell's text trumps table. So which is it? Is animate dead for Death clerics only, or do necromancers get it as well?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Thank ye kindly; I'll make changes.
    Feel free to look over the changes in the link in my sig for ideas.

    A suggestion for Glitterdust that I've seen is that it should dazzle rather than blind.
    My system was that if you fail by 10 or more it blinds, if you fail by 5 or more it causes blurry vision (-10 to spot and search, all creatures have concealment), and if you fail by less than 5 it merely dazzles.

    By the way, as long as I'm here, the Internet has been useless in answering this question: what's the difference between a casting time of 1 round and a casting time of 1 full-round action?
    A lot. A casting time of 1 FRA means that it takes your whole round (except for a 5' step and a swift action and any free actions) but finishes in your round (so it can't be interrupted except with an AoO or readied action.) A casting time of 1 round means that it doesn't finish until the beginning of your next round, so if anyone attacks you in the meantime you could end up having to make a concentration check or lose the spell.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Huge problem here. You have animate dead listed in the Master Spell List as being Death only. That means that necromancer wizards...can never learn basic necromancy. In the sor/wiz spell list from your Rebuild PDF, you list animate dead as being on the list, but the spell's text trumps table. So which is it? Is animate dead for Death clerics only, or do necromancers get it as well?
    Oops, that's a mistake. There's a few of those I've noticed, actually, looking it over. Animal Shapes should have the (Polymorph) subschool, as well.

    A lot. A casting time of 1 FRA means that it takes your whole round (except for a 5' step and a swift action and any free actions) but finishes in your round (so it can't be interrupted except with an AoO or readied action.) A casting time of 1 round means that it doesn't finish until the beginning of your next round, so if anyone attacks you in the meantime you could end up having to make a concentration check or lose the spell.
    Ah. That's...unnecessarily unclear. Casting times of 1 round should probably be called 1 turn instead...
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-20 at 11:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Suggestion for Mirror Image:

    It gives you one mirror double, giving you 50% miss chance until the image is destroyed. Which I think is already pretty good, compared with other spells of the same level. Maybe, if that is too weak, two images.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Wow, that's... almost ridiculous. I'm gonna definitely go through this for my current campaign. Kudos on the hard work. Any possibility of work on other books?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Awww... Stupid no storm of vengeance *grumble grumble*
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    why is Deathwatch still an evil spell?

    Why is Alarm now a Druid only spell?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    I had a proper look at it now, and I must say, I am very impressed. I know from experience what a huge effort it is to rewrite hte core spells (as in, I started and got only about two dozen of them done, and most of those didn't need much rewriting).

    Kudos, even if I don't agree with all the changes. I'll have a nother read through later and hopefully give some actually constructive criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapidghoul View Post
    Wow, that's... almost ridiculous. I'm gonna definitely go through this for my current campaign. Kudos on the hard work. Any possibility of work on other books?
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH No.

    ...

    who am I kidding? I'm already at work on the DMG...I refuse to go outside of Core, however. It's just too much work for one guy.

    I'm going to be completely honest: I am disappointed something like this wasn't done already.

    I'm disappointed that Wizard of the Coast never sat down and seriously re-examined every spell some time during 3rd Edition's run. I'm disappointed that Paizo didn't sit down and seriously re-examine what they were inhereting from WotC for Pathfinder. But...well, mostly, I'm disappointed in the fanbase. D&D 3rd Edition has been out for, what, eleven years now? It's print run stopped four years ago? Something like that? And yet at no point, as near as I can tell, was an enterprise like this undertaken. Everyone constantly agreed that certain spells were broken, that they needed to be fixed, and even how to fix them, but no-one ever took the effort to actually compile everything.

    Even though what I've done is full of holes and not a particularly good attempt, I can at least stand up as The Guy Who Finally Tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipilot24 View Post
    why is Deathwatch still an evil spell?
    I was interested mostly in fixing spells, not with making spells make sense (unless that was part of fixing the spell), Healing subschool move and [Acid] descriptor moves nonwithstanding.

    I'll probably change it.

    Why is Alarm now a Druid only spell?
    Because the system I used to edit the "Level" line in each spell was, in retrospect, stupid.

    That is, I nearly doubled the number of Core cleric domains and shuffled around several spell levels, so what I did was delete every "Level" line and then manually re-inserted them for the Cleric domains, Universal cleric spells, Druid spells and Paladin spells according to the new spell levels. Then when it game time to do the Sorcerer spells and Wizard spells, I had a mental breakdown. Despite them having a somewhat unique spell list, the end result is that there's still a lot of overlap between the Sorcerer and the Wizard, so I would have had to edit about a hundred Sorcerer spells, then go back to mostly the same hundred spells, plus about thirty more that only the Wizard has, and re-write "Wiz X" on each one.

    So I said screw it and just after I was done with the Sorcerer spells, went "Find > Replace," changed every instance of "Sor X" to say "Sor X, Wiz X," and then went through and inserted in the Wiz-only spells and edited the Sor-only spells, which I did have a handly list of at the time.

    At a guess there are about 424 spells in there. You try editing that many and see what happens to your mental well-being. It's a miracle I didn't delete every spell description and replace it with "DM Fiat."

    TL;DR: You guys are my proofreaders! The spell lists from the Rebuild document trump the individual spell discriptions.

    Oh, hey, opinion time: Should the Universal cleric list include the summon monster spells?

    AND: I'm seriosuly tempted to change a goodly number of spells with the [Evil] or [Good] descriptor to instead have the [Negative] or [Positive] descriptor, resepctively. Mostly here I'm thinking about animate dead. I'd also be giving the descriptor to the cure and inflict lines.

    In other words, mostly for Necromancy, which I've sort-of wanted to imply is basically the magic of positive and negative energy. And that evokers hate it for controlling energy types that they can't.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-21 at 08:57 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    The link redirects me to google docs...
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Cookie View Post
    The link redirects me to google docs...
    Well, they are google documents, so that makes sense to an extent...

    Having logged out of my Google account and checked, the links are working fine for me, so any problem is probably on your end.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    While I still think I want to post my own rebuild first as a series of posts, afterward making it into a PDF seems a good idea. How did you make yours? (And does that method allow sidebars?)
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    While I still think I want to post my own rebuild first as a series of posts, afterward making it into a PDF seems a good idea. How did you make yours? (And does that method allow sidebars?)
    I used this site; and no, unfortunately, it doesn't. Unless you pay for the full thing, probably, but this way is free, so that's what I stick with.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-21 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Okay. I was just looking at a few spells I spent some effort on fixing myself when they came up. I think I will post a few of the ideas I had, just for reference.

    Black Tentacles, in my version, created an area of difficult terrain that also forces concentration checks to cast spells. They could also be ordered to instead grapple one single creature, opening up the area. This was because people complained that the spell effectively shut down entire groups of enemies.

    It seems you took out Astral Projection entirely, which is probably a fair guess. I made it one of the ultimate scout/spying spells, instead. It creates an astral spirit copy that can not interact with the world around it in any way, only observe, but that can easily travel across planes and vast distances. (The level was lowered a bit, from 9).

    Shadow Conjuration and Evocation. You removed them, which I guess is fair enough. I split them into several spells, instead, with a shadow blast (blasty illusion, will save to ignore damage), shadow structure (quasi-real, weightless structure, to build e.g. walls, floors or bridges) and shadow creature (a bit like astral construct, but can also take the appearance of another person).
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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Black Tentacles, in my version, created an area of difficult terrain that also forces concentration checks to cast spells. They could also be ordered to instead grapple one single creature, opening up the area. This was because people complained that the spell effectively shut down entire groups of enemies.
    Well, that's sort of what it's there to do. Fireball also shuts down entire groups of enemies, after all.

    [qupte]It seems you took out Astral Projection entirely, which is probably a fair guess. I made it one of the ultimate scout/spying spells, instead. It creates an astral spirit copy that can not interact with the world around it in any way, only observe, but that can easily travel across planes and vast distances. (The level was lowered a bit, from 9).[/quote]

    I like the idea in principle, but experience with astral projecting in Vampire: the Masquerade has made me extremely wary of including it.

    Shadow Conjuration and Evocation. You removed them, which I guess is fair enough. I split them into several spells, instead, with a shadow blast (blasty illusion, will save to ignore damage), shadow structure (quasi-real, weightless structure, to build e.g. walls, floors or bridges) and shadow creature (a bit like astral construct, but can also take the appearance of another person).
    My belief is that no spell school should be able to duplicate the spells of another spell school; else what is the point of specializing and banning?

    Further, I've never really much liked the idea of "it's an illusion so powerful that it's actually real!" Illusions are, by definition, fake. And something can't be "semi-real." It either exists or it doesn't, even if that existance is, for example, confined to the Plane of Shadow (in that case "semi-real" should probably just mean that it's flickering between the Prime and the Plane of Shadow, like how blink flickers you between the Astral and the Prime). If an illusionist want to throw a fireball, then he needs to take Expanded Knowledge and learn Evocation spells. If he wants to summon creatures...he can't because Conjuration is a banned school for Illusionists, and he's going to have to accept that.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Which is, I suppose, one way to see it. I actually really like the idea of the plane of shadows as a place where things sort of flicker between being real and not real, with no good way of telling what they are, at the moment. I suppose that would make them dual school conjuration/illusion spells, if you know that weird little rule.

    That said, I came into D&D via Planescape. For me, believing things enough makes them real in D&D. So creating an illusion so credible it becomes real isn't all that unlikely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Which is, I suppose, one way to see it. I actually really like the idea of the plane of shadows as a place where things sort of flicker between being real and not real, with no good way of telling what they are, at the moment. I suppose that would make them dual school conjuration/illusion spells, if you know that weird little rule.
    I'm cool with things flickering between being real and not real as long as they're never "semi-real." We can be not sure whether something is real, like gravitons, but at the end of the day gravitons are either real, or they're not. But that's not really an illusion, that's more like a conjuraton or evocation effect.

    That said, I came into D&D via Planescape. For me, believing things enough makes them real in D&D. So creating an illusion so credible it becomes real isn't all that unlikely.
    Again, I don't mind the idea of an illusion so credible that it becomes real, much, though that seems like something that should be outside the scope of a single spell. What I don't like is the idea of "semi-real." That's like saying something is gigantically small, or soaking dry.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2012-05-21 at 07:05 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Okay, that was maybe slightly stupid wording. Semi-real was just my personal shortcut for "maybe realy, maybe not". What we can probably agree on is that the current way it is handled in vanilla 3.X, with the X% real, even on a successful save, is really weird.

    However, I still think there is place for something like this:

    Spoiler
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    Shadowfire
    Illusion (Phantasm) [Fire, Shadow]
    Sor/Wiz 3
    [Details, it's a ray]
    Will negates (see text)

    You mimic casting a powerful evocation spell and throw illusionary at your enemy, burning him.

    On a successful ranged touch attack, this spell deals 1d6 points of fire damage/level to a single enemy, unless they make a will save to disbelieve the illusion (having the spell cast on them automatically counts as interaction(.

    Special: The DC for making a spellcraft check for identifying this spell is 5 points higher than normal. Enemies who fail this check instead mistakenly believe it to be an evocation spell.


    It could work. Its quite a bit weaker than an equivalent level real evocation, but gives some nice versatility to illusionists and targets an unusual save.


    But anyway. This is deep into homebrew territory, and not really what this thread is about.


    Edit: to your above comments: my Astral Projection fix was acutally a ritual, not a spell, which I guess makes quite a bit of a difference. It also had a few safeguards built in, including several conditions which would bar an astral projection from entering an area, and ways in which they could be banished.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-05-21 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Spoiler
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    Shadowfire
    Illusion (Phantasm) [Fire, Shadow]
    Sor/Wiz 3
    [Details, it's a ray]
    Will negates (see text)

    You mimic casting a powerful evocation spell and throw illusionary at your enemy, burning him.

    On a successful ranged touch attack, this spell deals 1d6 points of fire damage/level to a single enemy, unless they make a will save to disbelieve the illusion (having the spell cast on them automatically counts as interaction(.

    Special: The DC for making a spellcraft check for identifying this spell is 5 points higher than normal. Enemies who fail this check instead mistakenly believe it to be an evocation spell.
    That is really neat, but I'm not sure if I'd want that in core D&D. Maybe if I was interested in making something called, I dunno, Ignis Fatuus: the Book of Illusions.

    ...which now I am.

    DAMN.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    That is really neat, but I'm not sure if I'd want that in core D&D. Maybe if I was interested in making something called, I dunno, Ignis Fatuus: the Book of Illusions.

    ...which now I am.

    DAMN.
    May I bow before you and call you master if you actually do that? Illusions are my favourite school, by far.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-05-21 at 07:18 PM.
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    Sunt lacrimae rerum et astra mortalia tangunt

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    May I bow before you and call you master if you actually do that? Illusions are my favourite school, by far.
    Ugh...I will...eventually...probably...I have a My Little Pony fanfiction I really need to keep working on, though...

    No, I am no ashamed, and it's worth noting that Trixie Lulamoon (an illusionist or beguiler if ever there was one) is the main character.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Om nom. This is a lot to chew on.

    How long did it take you to do this? Working in (very sporadic) bursts, it took me months to cover the core spell lists.

    The only comment I have so far is that you reference Polymorph Any Object (under Locate Object), but the spell has been removed.

    Will try to get you a readthrough...
    Halfling healer avatar by Akrim.elf.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Rebuild - I Fixed Every Core Spell in D&D [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernir View Post
    Om nom. This is a lot to chew on.

    How long did it take you to do this? Working in (very sporadic) bursts, it took me months to cover the core spell lists.
    Two weeks. But a lot of that was helped along by the fact that I was able to eliminate a lot of spells from the get-go by my directive to eliminate 8th and 9th level spells entirely, as well as a huge portion of Cleric and druid spells just outright exploding due to changes in the way they gained spells.

    And, well, an old thread on EN World helped, a little bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    DISCLAIMERS
    - I do not claim to have done a good job fixing every Core spell in D&D
    haha

    Spells schools were shuffled around - there is no more Conjuration (Healing), it's now Necromancy (Healing).
    I added a school of Vivimancy. Some vivimancy spells are mirrored (lifewatch = deathwatch) while healing is vivimancy. Arcane casters with access to vivi (unless prohibited by choice due to specialization) and divine casters who don't have access to vivi (just in case, who knows with the builds and deities people come up with) get healing spells at about double the spell level, and arcane/necro healing dazes subject one round.

    For this, negative/positive energy is no longer the basis for healing/harming or channeling. Inflict wound spells are distinct and are force evocations, so only certain healing spells are reversible to inflict non-wound conditions. Channeled energy is aligned and has fatigue/morale/bless type effects.

    Also I changed spell ranges:
    - Close (10 ft. +5 ft./3 levels)
    - Medium (30 ft. +10 ft./2 levels)
    - Long (50 ft. +10 ft./level)
    30 ft. +10 ft./2 levels = 30' + 5'/level ???

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