Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

[dehro]

meh.. this episode didn't really give me much to talk about..good or bad.
it kinda goes to show when the funniest moment revolves around a horse named Susan.
other than driving home the point that now the Doctor is more than willing to consider the death of a single individual a perfectly reasonable option to get out of a pickle and that him playing judge, jury and willing executioner is now a thing.. we haven't really learned much from this episode..
I'll go one further and say that even last episode was kinda formulaic.. once the nerdgasm from having dinosaurs on a spaceship wore off.. the episode was rather dull and predictable..more so than usual. as for the new characters.. I appreciated Mr Pond Sr.. the other two were just a bit of flavour that wasn't really needed nor brought much to the episode.

against the general mood, I still like the first episode of this season better than the next two.

[Tergon]

A Town Called Mercy, huh? Let's see about that.

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Well, I'm going to be flat-out honest here: I didn't think this was a really good episode at all. I'd give it a three, maybe four out of ten if I'm feeling generous.

The simple fact is that I didn't ever think for a moment that the Doctor might actually pull the trigger and outright kill a man. I feel like, this season, they're trying to act like the Doctor is all hardcore now: The way he coldly informed Souffle Girl that she was a Dalek and he was going to leave her on the planet, or the way that he left Flich to die chased down by the missiles. Now pulling a gun on Doctor McTattooFace... it feels like they're saying, "Look at how grim and dark the Doctor is right now! Oooh, scary! He's doing nasty stuff, really, look!"
Eleven has not been like that. He's like a schooboy, gleeful and excitable and babbling and with the attention span of a hummingbird on speed. He's been far more boistrous and eager than Ten was, but when his button gets pressed, he screams with rage rather than going into Ten's cold fury. Look at how he roared in defiance at Stonehenge when he was examining the Pandorica, or his brutal destruction of General Run-Away. Now, if we were talking about Nine, or Ten? Either of them, I could see killing someone in cold blood as part of the dark path that Nine started on, and that Ten went down toward the end of his run. But not Eleven. He'll leave someone to a well-deserved fate but I just cannot see him pulling the trigger unless it was in the heat of the moment. Brutally executing an unarmed man is not something that goofy, hat-loving, bow-tie-defending Matt Smith is capable of doing. At no point have I believed that he could. He'd do it mid-battle or if it were the final seconds of a world-breaking countdown, perhaps, but not just in cold blood. And because I cannot believe that he would do it, the drama of the episode's climax was completely lost on me. He was always going to defend the town from the Gunslinger, he was always going to ensure that Doctor McTattooFace paid for his crimes, it was just a question of how we'd go through the motions. A heroic sacrifice is better than it might have otherwise been, but that's the best I can say for it.

Add to that the utterly superfluous presence of Rory and Amy who did nothing of interest in the entire episode, the backup cast of forgettable townsfolk, and the cyborg who cannot kill anyone innocent EXCEPT WHOOPSIE-DAISY NOW HE CAN oh just kidding he's not going to after all, ha ha gotcha. This episode was all over the place with wildly out of character acting from the Doctor, zero justification for the villian's actions, a pointless self-sacrifice to redeem a guy we don't care about, and nothing else of interest.

Honestly, after the fun of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, this was genuinely disappointing.

[Weezer]

A Town Called Mercy, huh? Let's see about that.

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Well, I'm going to be flat-out honest here: I didn't think this was a really good episode at all. I'd give it a three, maybe four out of ten if I'm feeling generous.

The simple fact is that I didn't ever think for a moment that the Doctor might actually pull the trigger and outright kill a man. I feel like, this season, they're trying to act like the Doctor is all hardcore now: The way he coldly informed Souffle Girl that she was a Dalek and he was going to leave her on the planet, or the way that he left Flich to die chased down by the missiles. Now pulling a gun on Doctor McTattooFace... it feels like they're saying, "Look at how grim and dark the Doctor is right now! Oooh, scary! He's doing nasty stuff, really, look!"
Eleven has not been like that. He's like a schooboy, gleeful and excitable and babbling and with the attention span of a hummingbird on speed. He's been far more boistrous and eager than Ten was, but when his button gets pressed, he screams with rage rather than going into Ten's cold fury. Look at how he roared in defiance at Stonehenge when he was examining the Pandorica, or his brutal destruction of General Run-Away. Now, if we were talking about Nine, or Ten? Either of them, I could see killing someone in cold blood as part of the dark path that Nine started on, and that Ten went down toward the end of his run. But not Eleven. He'll leave someone to a well-deserved fate but I just cannot see him pulling the trigger unless it was in the heat of the moment. Brutally executing an unarmed man is not something that goofy, hat-loving, bow-tie-defending Matt Smith is capable of doing. At no point have I believed that he could. He'd do it mid-battle or if it were the final seconds of a world-breaking countdown, perhaps, but not just in cold blood. And because I cannot believe that he would do it, the drama of the episode's climax was completely lost on me. He was always going to defend the town from the Gunslinger, he was always going to ensure that Doctor McTattooFace paid for his crimes, it was just a question of how we'd go through the motions. A heroic sacrifice is better than it might have otherwise been, but that's the best I can say for it.

Add to that the utterly superfluous presence of Rory and Amy who did nothing of interest in the entire episode, the backup cast of forgettable townsfolk, and the cyborg who cannot kill anyone innocent EXCEPT WHOOPSIE-DAISY NOW HE CAN oh just kidding he's not going to after all, ha ha gotcha. This episode was all over the place with wildly out of character acting from the Doctor, zero justification for the villian's actions, a pointless self-sacrifice to redeem a guy we don't care about, and nothing else of interest.

Honestly, after the fun of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, this was genuinely disappointing.

The thing is that more and more Smith is starting to (in some specific ways) resemble Tom Baker's Doctor. No other Doctor jumped from pure whimsy to coolly snapping someone's neck, and this seems to be the path Smith is going down. I personally don't see a problem with that, but I may be biased, Tom Baker is 'my' Doctor.

Though I do agree with some of the problems in the episode you outlined.

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The Cyborg's willingness/unwillingness to kill innocents seemed really variable, depending on what the plot needed, which was frustrating. As was his aim, he went from being able to shoot someone's hat off, to not being able to hit the broad side of a barn. That really irked me.

I still enjoyed it, it hit all the key wild west tropes, but it did have major flaws.

[Tergon]

Yeah, but Four (Baker) was always like that. Eleven I like because he really does seem to be like a big kid sometimes, even cheekier and more excitable than Ten, but that emotion swings both ways, and when he gets angry he burns hot. Watching him roaring in General Run-Away's face - "When they ask you if trying to get to me through the people! I! Love! Is any kind of a good idea! ...tell them your name." That sent shivers down my spine. In that moment I think I began to like Eleven more than Ten (Though Five (Davidson) remains my favourite).
I'm not saying that making Eleven willing to kill is a bad thing by default, it's all dependent on how they handle it. And, well, I'm not sure I see the plot line that's being followed here. He's the Doctor, he's the good guy, he heals and he cares and he saves people... except, suddenly, one person per episode who he's perfectly willing to kill without warning. In contrast to how he's acted since we first met this regeneration, and for no readily apparent reason, the Doctor is suddenly a cold-blooded killer.

Give me some justification and I might think otherwise. But as it is, it just doesn't fit with what the character has been built into thus far.

[Calemyr]

Give me some justification and I might think otherwise. But as it is, it just doesn't fit with what the character has been built into thus far.

The justification is that the Doctor has spent an additional century largely on his own (he says he's over 1200 now, he was just over 1100 at the beginning of Impossible Astronaut, and just over 900 at the end of it). That's three hundred years of solitude, a quarter of his life*, for a man who hates to be alone. He's been sitting and brooding on all the people he couldn't save, all the times his inaction have cost more lives than were necessary.

And why is he travelling alone? Because he destroys the people he travels with. At best he ruins their lives, warps their perspective so that everyday life is unendurable boredom. If he's lucky he can ditch them in a place they'll be safe and happy, but left to look hopelessly at the stars every night. And if he's not lucky they die in heroic ways. Also Davros had the right of it: no gun is as dangerous as a properly experienced companion, and knowing that just makes it travelling with them harder.

This episode gains a good number of points just for the conversation between Amy and the Doctor about mercy and solitude. The Doctor has spared so many people, so many times. He's gotten to the point where he doesn't believe in second chances, and even the one chance he gives often opens the door to more deaths that could have been prevented. But the Doctor takes too much of the blame for this upon himself - he counts his failures twice and his victories not at all. And as those tallies continue to mount, it has become a major role of the companions to slap some sense into him when he gets like that. Donna was awesome at it, but then again, Donna was awesome in general.

Short version: 1200 years of a life where death is so common that a day where everybody lives is the most wonderful day of his life. 300 years spent in solitude with nobody around to pull him out of himself. More blood on his hands than any three races you'd like to mention.

Yeah. He is not in his happy place, for all his manic joy.

* Up to debate. His ability to keep track of his age is legendarily horrid, but these are the numbers we're given.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Give me some justification and I might think otherwise. But as it is, it just doesn't fit with what the character has been built into thus far.

I'd have to agree. Sure 10 got darker towards the end of his run, but we had been given clear reasons (and some not so clear), 11th hasn't really had any sort of events or explanations for going dark. In fact, considering what's happened in his run he should have gone the other way (started dark as a leftover from 10 and going brighter and brighter) because things seems to finally be going his way.

[Calemyr]

I'd have to agree. Sure 10 got darker towards the end of his run, but we had been given clear reasons (and some not so clear), 11th hasn't really had any sort of events or explanations for going dark. In fact, considering what's happened in his run he should have gone the other way (started dark as a leftover from 10 and going brighter and brighter) because things seems to finally be going his way.

I actually think it's kinda the reverse - Eleven's behavior isn't what comes natural to him, it's what he wants to be. He's a lot like Nine, in that he puts such a high premium on manic joy because without that joy he'd fall into a self-destructive depression. So he focuses on the good days, on the quirky surprises that fascinate and amuse him, on anything that evokes a positive emotion in him, really. And he states flat out that companions are integral to that - at his age, there isn't a lot left in the universe that evokes those emotions, but seeing them in the eyes of a friend is just as good. (Another reason his isolation is really bad for him.)

His moments of darkness aren't out-of-character, they're moments when the smiling mask slips.

[Tergon]

But it's not the moments of darkness that get to me. It's the way in which it's done.

Nine was the soldier who'd fought in the Time War, who looked gleefully into every situation to the sparks of joy he'd find there, and clung to them. But when that didn't work, he became stoic and resolute and did his duty like a soldier.
Ten was the curious scientist, peering closely at everything and trying to figure out how it worked and squealing with delight at how clever everything and everone (including himself) was. But when he got dark, that cold fury came into his eyes and he'd burn down a whole world to stop those who'd set him off.
Eleven is the excited schoolboy, nearly giggling as new brilliant things pop out at him and unable to stop himself from pausing in the middle of the Apocalypse to point out that, come on, those four guys on horses look pretty cool don't they? But get him angry and he burns with rage until he could nearly burst with it, howling in fury as he prepares to tear apart the problem with his bare fingers if he has to.

Except that's not quite true any more, is it? Three times this season, we've seen Eleven come face to face with someone monstrous:

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The human who became a Dalek, the scavenger who murdered an entire ship for profit, and the Doctor who carved screaming people into cybernetic abominations. And all three times, Eleven hasn't reacted the same any more. He doesn't go in to fight the battle, he doesn't burn with fury any more. He stays calm, he goes icy cold, he tells them to their face that they're monsters... and then he lets them die and doesn't try to save them. He even ensures that they can't save themselves. He's become something the Doctor never, ever was before - an executioner. And he's become this with absolutely no explanation or reason why.

My point isn't that Eleven has his moments of darkness - all Doctors have, and Nu Doctor especially. My point is that Eleven is suddenly letting that darkness flow freely. Not fuelled by rage or distress any more, not in the heat of the moment, and not in an outburst where it could be justified as the right, or even the necessary thing to do. Instead he's calmly, coldly and pretty damn cruelly pointing a gun at a helpless man's face and sending him to his death.
That, I don't like. That's not the Doctor I love, and that's definitely not Eleven.

[Weezer]

Yeah, but Four (Baker) was always like that. Eleven I like because he really does seem to be like a big kid sometimes, even cheekier and more excitable than Ten, but that emotion swings both ways, and when he gets angry he burns hot. Watching him roaring in General Run-Away's face - "When they ask you if trying to get to me through the people! I! Love! Is any kind of a good idea! ...tell them your name." That sent shivers down my spine. In that moment I think I began to like Eleven more than Ten (Though Five (Davidson) remains my favourite).
I'm not saying that making Eleven willing to kill is a bad thing by default, it's all dependent on how they handle it. And, well, I'm not sure I see the plot line that's being followed here. He's the Doctor, he's the good guy, he heals and he cares and he saves people... except, suddenly, one person per episode who he's perfectly willing to kill without warning. In contrast to how he's acted since we first met this regeneration, and for no readily apparent reason, the Doctor is suddenly a cold-blooded killer.

Give me some justification and I might think otherwise. But as it is, it just doesn't fit with what the character has been built into thus far.

Except this is how 11 has been for pretty much his whole run, manic, overwhelming joy and wonder that covers up a darkness, an abiding anger and a willingness to kill. Look at how he was in Victory of the Daleks (though the Daleks always bring out the worst in all the new-Doctors), Day of the Moon (he essentially hypnotized the entire Human race to commit genocide against a race they don't even know exists), How he acts towards Uncle in the Doctor's Wife, Good Man Goes to War is an obvious one, the list goes on. Yes, he's being a bit more 'hands on', but I think that comes in part with how he's realizing that he has *always* killed people, always been responsible for others deaths, and now, rather than letting other people kill them or letting them kill themselves, he is taking it into his own hands to an extent.

Don't be tricked by his exterior, 11 is by far the darkest Doctor of the New run, and is pretty far up there even with respect to the old run. He pretends to be a big child, because he knows how old he is and is trying to fight the effect his age has on him. And as the last few series have shown, it's a fight he may very well be losing. (Valeyard anyone???)

I actually think it's kinda the reverse - Eleven's behavior isn't what comes natural to him, it's what he wants to be. He's a lot like Nine, in that he puts such a high premium on manic joy because without that joy he'd fall into a self-destructive depression. So he focuses on the good days, on the quirky surprises that fascinate and amuse him, on anything that evokes a positive emotion in him, really. And he states flat out that companions are integral to that - at his age, there isn't a lot left in the universe that evokes those emotions, but seeing them in the eyes of a friend is just as good. (Another reason his isolation is really bad for him.)

His moments of darkness aren't out-of-character, they're moments when the smiling mask slips.

I agree with this completely. You said it better than I could.

[Philistine]

The two biggest problems I had with ATCM are really problems with the series as a whole, which this episode just highlighted.

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First is the age-old question "Why don't the bad guys just shoot?" How many episodes, featuring how many Doctors, from all eras, are successfully resolved only because the Villain of the Week, having the Doctor at their mercy, suddenly develops an inexplicable reluctance to just shoot him? In ATCM, this is exemplified by the Gunslinger's failure to follow through on his "by noon tomorrow" ultimatum. Sure he shpws up at the appointed time, but show up is all he does - instead of stomping in and blasting everything that moved (as well as any stationary objects big enough to hide behind), he piddle-farts around and actually pays attention to the Doctor's distraction scheme. Why he bothers trying to positively ID his targets when he's there to destroy the town and everyone in it… isn't really explained, but it seems like the reason is "because otherwise the Doctor's plan wouldn't have a chance to work." (Sort of related, this guy was a product of the breakthrough program that won the Kahler's war for them? He couldn't whip his weight in Cub Scouts!)

The other question is, "How many innocent lives is the Doctor's clean conscience ultimately worth?" It bothered me more than usual in this episode because of the "Today I honor the victims of my 'mercy'" bit in the season preview trailer, after seeing which I had high hopes that this would finally be addressed. You know, at all. So then the way it was immediately, even casually dismissed - by an argument that was more like a schoolyard taunt than an honest attempt to answer the question - left me disappointed beyond words. It's especially galling that this particular moral lecture should come from the mouth of Amy "She didn't get all of that from you, Sweetie" Pond, of all people.

All in all, a pretty frustrating episode. The best part was the way it (almost certainly inadvertently) undercut its own (hamfistedly delivered) moral lesson.

[Strawberries]

Don't be tricked by his exterior, 11 is by far the darkest Doctor of the New run, and is pretty far up there even with respect to the old run.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks that.

My point is that Eleven is suddenly letting that darkness flow freely. Not fuelled by rage or distress any more,

Strange that you would think so. My taking was pretty much the opposite. As I saw it, in the episode

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the Doctor felt uncomfortably similar to mr McTattooFace (to steal the moniker from Tergon). In a way, you could argue that they're both war criminals. The Doctor, after all, killed off two whole species... and Eleven definitely didn't like to be reminded of that, or at least, that's how I interpreted his expression while TattooFace was speaking about having to sacrifice people to end the war. So yes, I'd say that Eleven's outburst was fuelled by both rage and distress. Very much, in fact.

Of course, I could be way off.

[Weezer]

Strange that you would think so. My taking was pretty much the opposite. As I saw it, in the episode

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the Doctor felt uncomfortably similar to mr McTattooFace (to steal the moniker from Tergon). In a way, you could argue that they're both war criminals. The Doctor, after all, killed off two whole species... and Eleven definitely didn't like to be reminded of that, or at least, that's how I interpreted his expression while TattooFace was speaking about having to sacrifice people to end the war. So yes, I'd say that Eleven's outburst was fuelled by both rage and distress. Very much, in fact.

Of course, I could be way off.

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This was exactly my take on the issue. The Doctor saw himself in TattooFace, his ending of the Time War (from what we know if it) was very much a 'the war has to end, now, so any steps are justified' act, much like TattooFace's was. The Doctor was angry at TattooFace because he is angry at himself, and has been since the end of the Time War.

[dps]

A Town Called Mercy, huh? Let's see about that.

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The simple fact is that I didn't ever think for a moment that the Doctor might actually pull the trigger and outright kill a man.

Well, I didn't either, but

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just because it was too early in the episode. If they wanted us to think that the Doctor might actually resolve the situation that way, that scene needed to be nearer the end.

[Tergon]

It's not the fact that Eleven has some darkness in him that gets me, though. We've seen that right from the beginning. He's capable of just as much, and in many ways so much more than his other incarnations - he gave all of humanity a hypnotic suggestion to commit mass genocide upon the Silent, he raised an army against those who kidnapped Amy and Melody and fought a full-scale war to get them back, he's seen to the death and destruction of so many who've crossed him.

The difference is that in all of those, I could believe that he didn't want to do it. Or at least that a very great part of him didn't. Like I said, watching him roaring in General Run-Away's face and his stunned realisation of the fact that it was all a trick showed that the Battle of Demon's Run wasn't a well thought-out strategy, it was him acting on rage and emotion. When he found what was being done to the Star-Whale, he prepared to kill it while snarling that "Nobody human has anything to say to me today!" When he went ballistic on Churchill's pet Dalek, he began beating it with the nearest heavy object he could find, hysterically demanding to know how his worst enemies just kept on surviving no matter what he did to them. When his worst enemies threatened the entire world by (he thought) coming to claim the Pandorica, he screamed into the night sky for one of them to grow the balls to come down and fight him.
When Eleven gets blindsided by something he didn't expect, when someone presses his berserk button, he doesn't go calm and quiet. At no point in season five or six did he turn on the tranquil fury and commit an awful act while remaining in control of himself. That was Ten's style, and Eleven is very specifically a different personality to Ten. When Eleven gets backed into a corner and when he gets truly angry, we've seen it - he howls his defiance, he lashes out, and he doesn't go cold, he burns.

Compare that to the Eleven that we see in A Town Called Mercy. This is supposed to be the same man who saw Prisoner Zero willing to let the Earth be torched out of spite so that it would take innocent lives with it when it died, and who saw the Atraxi willing to wipe out billions of innocent lives to capture one criminal... and who responded by handing Prisoner Zero back to its captors and then giving the Atraxi a good scolding.

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Now he meets McTattooFace, who ended a war and saved his people by performing an atrocity that he feels bad about, and has since done nothing but help people... and Eleven doesn't shout, or kick, or scream, or anything of the sort. He listens calmly to the story, nods, and orders that McTattooFace be killed. And when it looks like that might not happen, he pulls a gun on McTattooFace to stop this unarmed, terrified, defenceless man from trying to save his own life. Then when someone points out this is a bad thing to do, he orders a half-dozen innocent people to put on a fake tattoo and impersonate him so that the unstoppable crack-shooting murder-cyborg will mistake them for the person it wants to kill.

What the hell happened while we weren't looking to make the Doctor decide that this is a reasonable course of action? He's been going further down a dark path, sure, but this is miles beyond anything we've seen before, and where's the justification for it? There's authorities he could hand McTattooFace over to that could punish him for his crimes while protecting him from the Gunslinger. Hell, he could have done the same for Filch in the last episode. Or Souffle Girl... sure, she was a slab of meat and brain tissue inside a Pepper Pot now, but mentally she was not a Dalek, and she had access to their files and technology in a way the Doctor's never had before. If she wanted to be saved, why the hell couldn't he save her? Disable the weapons system as insurance, but what possible problem would there be at that point with at least trying to help the poor girl rather than telling her she wasn't human any more and leaving her to die on an exploding planet after she just saved his life?

Somewhere along the way, very recently, the Doctor came to the decision that his preferred objective was no longer "Everybody Lives". It was "Everybody Lives Except For Those I Don't Like, Who I Will Personally Ensure Do Not Live." And there is absolutely no reason given for this aside from the vague idea that the Doctor's a bit darker now.

Seriously, am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong here?

[NikitaDarkstar]

To be honest I don't have an issue with Oswin. She was a dalek and considering the history he has with the daleks I can accept his actions. (I have more issues with why the daleks would convert humans since they consider themselves superior to pretty much everything, and everything inferior to them needs to die... but that's another story.)

And I can even see the reason behind what he did in Dinosaurs. Missiles were coming at a ship filled with innocent creatures (granted, animals, but still) and since needed something else for them to lock onto. I don't quite like the attitude he had behind it, but I don't mind the actions themselves.

But the Doctor IS becoming darker, and as has been pointed out, his personality is changing (going from a burning rage to a cold fury) without any good reason. And really, changes like that do need reasons, and good ones. Maybe it will be clearer later in the season (it wouldn't be the first time Moffat gives important information later) but some hints would have been nice.


And yes, I totally went back and watched some older 11th episodes, and after that it seems like I agree with other people on here. ^^;

[Cen]

(I have more issues with why the daleks would convert humans since they consider themselves superior to pretty much everything, and everything inferior to them needs to die... but that's another story.);

1 Daleks in Asylum were insane
2 Dalek Emperor made Daleks out of human DNA
3 Dalek Sek wanted to make human/dalek hybrids
it all sums up to this: Daleks consider themselves superior but when out of options they abandon their own rules and, well Oswin was a genius, who not only could easily cure Daleks out of Doctorofobia but also allow them escaping Asylum.
I have more issus with Asylum being basically a prison with forcefield that can be deactivated from the inside :|

About Gunslinger not murdering everyone as he promised - I always assumed it was just a threat. He was a killing machine that regained conciousnes - he didn't want to kill any innocent, all of his motivations was to get vengance on one who made him kill so many.

But anyways, I just finished watching the end of series 4 and let me tell you this:
-Donna was best companion. I was so glad there was finally someone without this stupid 'romance with the Dotor' subplot
-In 'Journey's end' just when I thought Daleks can't be more creepy that started talking German. Oh the horror.
-Son of mine from 'The Family of blood' is my second most favourite DH villian. There is something mesmerising in the way he talks and that constant smile..

Seriously, am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong here?

Nope, not at all. I think exactly the same.

[Tergon]

To be honest I don't have an issue with Oswin. She was a dalek and considering the history he has with the daleks I can accept his actions. (I have more issues with why the daleks would convert humans since they consider themselves superior to pretty much everything, and everything inferior to them needs to die... but that's another story.)

Yeah, but last time he bumped into a Human / Dalek hybrid, his response wasn't "Kill it with fire", it was, "Protect and save it". And Oswin was even more human than Dalec Sec became, to the point where she wasn't even aware she'd turned into a Dalek. She was mentally human with the powers of a Dalek, something that you'd expect the Doctor to protect if he was being heroic, or use if he was being ruthless.
What you wouldn't expect would be, "Well, you were transformed against your will into something physically different. I'm going to leave you here to die alone now." That's... wildly out of character.

And I can even see the reason behind what he did in Dinosaurs. Missiles were coming at a ship filled with innocent creatures (granted, animals, but still) and since needed something else for them to lock onto. I don't quite like the attitude he had behind it, but I don't mind the actions themselves.

And I'd agree here, too, except for one thing - at what point was it established that Filch had to be on board the doomed ship? The Doctor had time to get him to safety, and without Mitchell and Webb around, he could easily keep Filch restrained until he could be handed over to the proper authorities. Anonymously, if the Doctor wanted to stay off-record. But forcing a screaming man to stay aboard a doomed ship, making the conscious decision not to save him when it was easily within the Doctor's power, and then all but gloating about it?

But the Doctor IS becoming darker, and as has been pointed out, his personality is changing (going from a burning rage to a cold fury) without any good reason. And really, changes like that do need reasons, and good ones. Maybe it will be clearer later in the season (it wouldn't be the first time Moffat gives important information later) but some hints would have been nice.

Basically, yeah, that's where I'm coming from. Three episodes into the new season and the Doctor has come across a "monstrous" individual in each episode. And each time he's done something that is wildly out of character and completely against everything we know about Eleven up to this point - he's gone cold on them and then done something pretty damn unspeakably awful to them.
I am willing to believe that Moffat has a reason behind this and we'll see it, but until that actually happens I'm just left wondering what happened to Eleven and what the merry hell he's doing.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Yeah, but last time he bumped into a Human / Dalek hybrid, his response wasn't "Kill it with fire", it was, "Protect and save it". And Oswin was even more human than Dalec Sec became, to the point where she wasn't even aware she'd turned into a Dalek. She was mentally human with the powers of a Dalek, something that you'd expect the Doctor to protect if he was being heroic, or use if he was being ruthless.
What you wouldn't expect would be, "Well, you were transformed against your will into something physically different. I'm going to leave you here to die alone now." That's... wildly out of character.

And I'd agree here, too, except for one thing - at what point was it established that Filch had to be on board the doomed ship? The Doctor had time to get him to safety, and without Mitchell and Webb around, he could easily keep Filch restrained until he could be handed over to the proper authorities. Anonymously, if the Doctor wanted to stay off-record. But forcing a screaming man to stay aboard a doomed ship, making the conscious decision not to save him when it was easily within the Doctor's power, and then all but gloating about it?

Basically, yeah, that's where I'm coming from. Three episodes into the new season and the Doctor has come across a "monstrous" individual in each episode. And each time he's done something that is wildly out of character and completely against everything we know about Eleven up to this point - he's gone cold on them and then done something pretty damn unspeakably awful to them.
I am willing to believe that Moffat has a reason behind this and we'll see it, but until that actually happens I'm just left wondering what happened to Eleven and what the merry hell he's doing.

1. Yes, except you're missing one key difference between Dalek Sec and Oswin. Dalek Sec is a dalek that is willingly becoming something else/more, displaying a fundamental difference between himself and "normal" dalek behavior, it got the Doctor curious.
Oswin on the other hand is a human that's become a dalek against her will and iIRC was starting to lose grip on her humanity near the end (didn't she start to stammer "exterminate" but fighting it near the end? Or am I just confused?)
If Dalek Sec had succeeded with what he wanted to do on a large scale he would have created a new far more peaceful dalek race. If Oswin had lived she could have snapped into full out dalek mode at any moment. But yes, in theory she could have been saved, and I think 10th would have tried at least.

2. As I said, I agree with the logic, not the attitude. Yes Filch could, in theory have been dragged away from there (remember he didn't move very quickly, but an attempt could have been made, yes), or could just have been left behind to live or die on his own, and I would have been ok with that too. But it's the gloating I didn't like. As I said, I agree with the actions and logic, not the attitude. (To be honest both 9th and 10th would most likely have left him in the ship too, but they wouldn't have rubbed it in like that.)

And yes, that really is the issue. It's not that it's against the Doctors OVERALL character (if we take all regenerations into account), but it's that 11th has changed how he handles things without giving us viewers a good reason for it and it makes us somewhat confused and unsettled, especially when it comes right after such a long break, meaning that if there were hints in the previous season they're long forgotten by now and we expect what we've come to think of the Doctors normal behavior.

And I'll eat my hat (or punch a wall) if Moffat isn't building up to bringing the Valeyard back.

[Tergon]

Yeah, we're about on the same page here. I agree with you that his actions make sense logically, but it's not logic that's the problem. It's Eleven quite suddenly becoming a cold and ruthless killer instead of the impulsive ball of emotion we're used to. His character's changed, significantly, and we're not being told why.

Building up to the Valeyard would be very interesting. I could see Moffat doing that, but the thing is that it seems like he's so obviously steering the story in that direction that I'm expecting a fake-out. Like the female hand that stole the Master's ring after he died - everyone speculated that it was the Rani, it was referred to by the creators as "The Hand of the Rani", and then it quite cheerfully revealed to not be the Rani.
Same thing here. Doctor's getting darker and darker while revealing more and more deep-seated self-loathing, which is going straight toward the character of the Valeyard... which makes me think that's exactly why we're NOT going in that direction. I'm just not sure where we are headed if not there.

[Cen]

Dalek Sec is a dalek that is willingly becoming something else/more, displaying a fundamental difference between himself and "normal" dalek behavior, it got the Doctor curious.
Oswin on the other hand is a human that's become a dalek against her will and iIRC was starting to lose grip on her humanity near the end (didn't she start to stammer "exterminate" but fighting it near the end? Or am I just confused?)
If Dalek Sec had succeeded with what he wanted to do on a large scale he would have created a new far more peaceful dalek race. If Oswin had lived she could have snapped into full out dalek mode at any moment.

In 'Journey's End', when Crucible was exploding 10th offered to save Davros but Davros refused.
I kinda suspect Davros was more evil than Oswin so yeah, your argument is invalid.

[NikitaDarkstar]

In 'Journey's End', when Crucible was exploding 10th offered to save Davros but Davros refused.
I kinda suspect Davros was more evil than Oswin so yeah, your argument is invalid.

As you said, that was 10th, not 11th. 10th always seemed more willing to try to save even the bad guys. (If he wasn't all "The fury of a Time Lord") But yes, it makes for a somewhat annoying inconsistency.

[Friv]

Guys, Oswin didn't want to be saved.

Once she found out what had happened to her, she told the Doctor that the forcefield was off, and asked him to remember her as she had been. The "Dalek-ness" inside her had been slowly overwhelming her for ages, and she didn't want to live like that.

Which is very sad, but the Doctor has respected the wishes of people wanting to die before this.

[Kato]

Saying "Xth should have done Y because Zth would have done so" is really a poor argument... Even though they share the same memories it has often been made a point that every Doctor is unique and what one would have done is completely irrelevant to what another does.

10 trying to save Davros was him being... how to put it... him still being the repenter, the pacifist, the person who would love to save everyone in the universe because he is Space Jesus. Not always, but that was 10's stick most of the time. 11 is not that person. 11 is not trying to save all of space time. He was willing to take quite drastic measures against the Silent. He fought a war at Demon's Run.
Admittedly, yes I would have liked Oswin to be saved but I guess there was no for one no time (maybe) and on the other hand as Nikita said, she was apparently fighting a losing battle against her reprogramming. He wasn't cruel there but I guess they could have made a better point of explaining why he didn't save her.
As for Filch... he was a bastard and he deserved what he got. It was not a good thing to do what 11 did, but it wasn't some horrible crime. It was just 11 being what he was tending towards for most of his characterization.

[Cen]

As you said, that was 10th, not 11th. 10th always seemed more willing to try to save even the bad guys. (If he wasn't all "The fury of a Time Lord") But yes, it makes for a somewhat annoying inconsistency.

So it's a new personality so it makes it OK then? Making The Doctor suddenly a cold blooded murderer?
Oswin - Ooh you are becoming a Dalek? no, no saving then, have fun on exploding planet, thanks for saving me, bye.

Guys, Oswin didn't want to be saved.

She was in a shock. She restrained her inner Dalek for a year and in a second Doctor made her realise she was just brain with Dalek body, you can imagine what stress it put on her. People in shock tell all kind of things but in time they learn to cope with that. Reprogamming? yeah right like doctor wouldn't be able to stop that. Riiight.

As for Filch... he was a bastard and he deserved what he got.

No he didn't. He was evil, cruel and mass-murderer, but he was also helpless unarmed crippled old man. After Nefretete disarmed him and without his bots he was completely in Doctor's power and what the Doctor decided? Take him to the proper authorities Shadow Proclamation? Atraxi? No. Doctor decided to be both judge and executioner killing him with cold blood. All that scene lacked was some evil laughter when Finch's ship was blown up.

[CelestialStick]

The two biggest problems I had with ATCM are really problems with the series as a whole, which this episode just highlighted.

Spoiler

Show

First is the age-old question "Why don't the bad guys just shoot?" How many episodes, featuring how many Doctors, from all eras, are successfully resolved only because the Villain of the Week, having the Doctor at their mercy, suddenly develops an inexplicable reluctance to just shoot him? In ATCM, this is exemplified by the Gunslinger's failure to follow through on his "by noon tomorrow" ultimatum. Sure he shpws up at the appointed time, but show up is all he does - instead of stomping in and blasting everything that moved (as well as any stationary objects big enough to hide behind), he piddle-farts around and actually pays attention to the Doctor's distraction scheme. Why he bothers trying to positively ID his targets when he's there to destroy the town and everyone in it… isn't really explained, but it seems like the reason is "because otherwise the Doctor's plan wouldn't have a chance to work." (Sort of related, this guy was a product of the breakthrough program that won the Kahler's war for them? He couldn't whip his weight in Cub Scouts!)

The other question is, "How many innocent lives is the Doctor's clean conscience ultimately worth?" It bothered me more than usual in this episode because of the "Today I honor the victims of my 'mercy'" bit in the season preview trailer, after seeing which I had high hopes that this would finally be addressed. You know, at all. So then the way it was immediately, even casually dismissed - by an argument that was more like a schoolyard taunt than an honest attempt to answer the question - left me disappointed beyond words. It's especially galling that this particular moral lecture should come from the mouth of Amy "She didn't get all of that from you, Sweetie" Pond, of all people.

All in all, a pretty frustrating episode. The best part was the way it (almost certainly inadvertently) undercut its own (hamfistedly delivered) moral lesson.

I have to agree with you on both points here, Phil.

[Kato]

So it's a new personality so it makes it OK then?

Yes. Well, it invalidates the comparison with 10 at least.

No he didn't. He was evil, cruel and mass-murderer, but he was also helpless unarmed crippled old man. After Nefretete disarmed him and without his bots he was completely in Doctor's power and what the Doctor decided? Take him to the proper authorities Shadow Proclamation? Atraxi? No. Doctor decided to be both judge and executioner killing him with cold blood. All that scene lacked was some evil laughter when Finch's ship was blown up.

I stand my point. He was a bastard and he deserved it. No, it wasn't the best option but it was a viable one. Nothing with evil laughter. Just because he's not a saint the Doctor isn't an evil maniac. He doesn't go around killing people for the lulz (even though the bloating tends in a more evil direction than the act itself) but he just doesn't restrain from doing so. I forgot when but not too long ago (Season 6 finale?) he had the realization how many lives he could have saved if he'd properly disposed the bad guys he merely stopped and from deciding to in the future make your mercy wouldn't hurt anyone anymore it's not too far into anti-hero territory, especially after a few hundred years on your own.

[NikitaDarkstar]

So it's a new personality so it makes it OK then? Making The Doctor suddenly a cold blooded murderer?

It makes it pointless to compare him to 10th anyway. It's what he's becoming compared to himself that's the issue.

Oswin - Ooh you are becoming a Dalek? no, no saving then, have fun on exploding planet, thanks for saving me, bye.


She was in a shock. She restrained her inner Dalek for a year and in a second Doctor made her realise she was just brain with Dalek body, you can imagine what stress it put on her. People in shock tell all kind of things but in time they learn to cope with that. Reprogamming? yeah right like doctor wouldn't be able to stop that. Riiight.

Why would he be able to stop that? The only other dalek he's met that was remotely similar had changed mentally and physically on his own accord. What makes you think the Doctor is so intimately familiar with dalek technology that he can reverse that effect? (He he even made point of pointing out that he doesn't know everything about dalek technology and that there are things that the time lords never did figure out about them.) She was physically a dalek and was mentally becoming one and would have been fairly dangerous once she lost that battle.

No he didn't. He was evil, cruel and mass-murderer, but he was also helpless unarmed crippled old man. After Nefretete disarmed him and without his bots he was completely in Doctor's power and what the Doctor decided? Take him to the proper authorities Shadow Proclamation? Atraxi? No. Doctor decided to be both judge and executioner killing him with cold blood. All that scene lacked was some evil laughter when Finch's ship was blown up.

I sort of agree here. I personally think he deserved what he got, but it was very out of character for the Doctor. I agree with the logic, but as I said earlier, I find the gloating disturbing. Even if he was going to leave him to die he could have done it without the "See how smart I am and how screwed you are." scene.

[dehro]

It makes it pointless to compare him to 10th anyway. It's what he's becoming compared to himself that's the issue.

Why would he be able to stop that? The only other dalek he's met that was remotely similar had changed mentally and physically on his own accord. What makes you think the Doctor is so intimately familiar with dalek technology that he can reverse that effect? (He he even made point of pointing out that he doesn't know everything about dalek technology and that there are things that the time lords never did figure out about them.) She was physically a dalek and was mentally becoming one and would have been fairly dangerous once she lost that battle.

I sort of agree here. I personally think he deserved what he got, but it was very out of character for the Doctor. I agree with the logic, but as I said earlier, I find the gloating disturbing. Even if he was going to leave him to die he could have done it without the "See how smart I am and how screwed you are." scene.

QFT.. on both accounts.

[Cen]

Why would he be able to stop that? The only other dalek he's met that was remotely similar had changed mentally and physically on his own accord. What makes you think the Doctor is so intimately familiar with dalek technology that he can reverse that effect? (He he even made point of pointing out that he doesn't know everything about dalek technology and that there are things that the time lords never did figure out about them.) She was physically a dalek and was mentally becoming one and would have been fairly dangerous once she lost that battle.

For one she could have been disarmed that would minimize the threat. For two in Evolution of Daleks he shows that he is enough familiar with their technology to stop pigslave transformation (not reverse but stop) that was caused by Daleks. In Journey's End he is so good with Dalek technology he can use Crucible to make every Dalek explode at once. I know - all previous Doctors but knowledge doesn't disappear after regeneration.
And I don't know how canon are comicbooks but in 'Only good Dalek' there are humen reprogramming Daleks

But the main thing is he didn't even try to do anything. He saw that girl who saved him was tortured and closed in Dalek casing and instantly turned all "Truth is too terrible, you're a Dalek, no saving fo you, remember to lower the shields so we can escape and leave you here"

[dps]

Yeah, but last time he bumped into a Human / Dalek hybrid, his response wasn't "Kill it with fire", it was, "Protect and save it". And Oswin was even more human than Dalec Sec became, to the point where she wasn't even aware she'd turned into a Dalek. She was mentally human with the powers of a Dalek, something that you'd expect the Doctor to protect if he was being heroic, or use if he was being ruthless.
What you wouldn't expect would be, "Well, you were transformed against your will into something physically different. I'm going to leave you here to die alone now." That's... wildly out of character.

The way I read it is that he was completely surprised and freaked out about her transformation, and didn't know what to do, but then she told him that she'd drop the shields and for him to run, and he just went with that. It wasn't anything calculated on his part; he basically just did what she told him to do.

And I'd agree here, too, except for one thing - at what point was it established that Filch had to be on board the doomed ship? The Doctor had time to get him to safety, and without Mitchell and Webb around, he could easily keep Filch restrained until he could be handed over to the proper authorities. Anonymously, if the Doctor wanted to stay off-record. But forcing a screaming man to stay aboard a doomed ship, making the conscious decision not to save him when it was easily within the Doctor's power, and then all but gloating about it?

Solomon certainly didn't have to be left on the ship, but I can see it as being within the Doctor's personality to decide to leave him. Heck I think the only one that wouldn't have been woud be Five (well, maybe Eight, because really we don't know much about Eight). Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all incarnations of the Doctor except Five would always make the choice to leave the villian in the circumstances, but rather that it's within their character to choose to go with either leaving him or not--for some it would be more likely to leave him (One would be the most likely to leave him IMO), for some it would be less likely.

As for the gloating, this is the Doctor who gave Manton the name "Col. Runaway".

Basically, yeah, that's where I'm coming from. Three episodes into the new season and the Doctor has come across a "monstrous" individual in each episode. And each time he's done something that is wildly out of character and completely against everything we know about Eleven up to this point - he's gone cold on them and then done something pretty damn unspeakably awful to them.
I am willing to believe that Moffat has a reason behind this and we'll see it, but until that actually happens I'm just left wondering what happened to Eleven and what the merry hell he's doing.

I'm willing to wait and see on this one. What some see as character derailment others may see as character development.