Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

[CelestialStick]

The way I read it is that he was completely surprised and freaked out about her transformation, and didn't know what to do, but then she told him that she'd drop the shields and for him to run, and he just went with that. It wasn't anything calculated on his part; he basically just did what she told him to do.



Solomon certainly didn't have to be left on the ship, but I can see it as being within the Doctor's personality to decide to leave him. Heck I think the only one that wouldn't have been woud be Five (well, maybe Eight, because really we don't know much about Eight). Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all incarnations of the Doctor except Five would always make the choice to leave the villian in the circumstances, but rather that it's within their character to choose to go with either leaving him or not--for some it would be more likely to leave him (One would be the most likely to leave him IMO), for some it would be less likely.

As for the gloating, this is the Doctor who gave Manton the name "Col. Runaway".



I'm willing to wait and see on this one. What some see as character derailment others may see as character development.

I recall that even the 5th Doctor left the Master in the flames to die in "Planet of Fire."

[Calemyr]

I'm willing to wait and see on this one. What some see as character derailment others may see as character development.

That's the wise thing to do, I think. It's pretty dumb to rage too hard on a consistent thread this early in the season. It may well be setup to something important, like all those medical scans of Amy leading to Rory's famous "I have a question and a message" speech to the cybermen. Also Demon's run, but that's secondary to Rory staring down an entire legion of Cybermen as the Doctor blew them up. (Note: The cybermen weren't even the enemy that time - they just didn't leap to help him when he was pissed.)

If we never see a conclusion or a consequence to the Doctor's slipping mask, then I'll be upset. But a plot in progress should be given the benefit of the doubt.

[dehro]

I'm not too offended by this whole "turned dark" thing going on.. but I do find it a bit.. startling, that this doesn't happen from one doctor to the next..but that instead it occurs from one season to the next, with the same doctor..and there seems to be very little in the way of cause.. I mean.. you want 11 to go dark and morally objectionable? sure, go ahead..but.. shouldn't it happen as consequence to something that happens on screen? the connection between this going dark and whatever may be it's cause in the previous season isn't all too clear. it could be anything really..from River Song's fate to.. again..anything..but shouldn't it be spelled out on screen?

also..am I wrong or did the doctor say that he's 1200 years old now, in the last episode... does that mean we might, at a later time, get loads of.. "prequels" to this season?

[Tono]

Just actually got around to watching ATCM, so avoided reading this thread (even if I haven't posted often), and with all the discussion I just skimmed it to be honest, so sorry if it has been mentioned but;

And this theory does contain spoilers I suppose, if you have been purposefully avoiding what spoilers have been givin about what is going to happen this season.

Spoiler

Show

There is a theory I saw out on the webs, that we are actually seeing everything out of order. That this season's timeline(in respect to the Doctor) is Amy & Rory's last episode, 1,2,3,4. or 1,5,2,3,4. Ill try to find it again, I think I saw it on reddit. But they key points were A Pond's life, with the doctor bouncing around and the 'you're in danger!' (Although personally I think this is just comedy), The way the opening is constantly getting darker(I honestly thought it was my TV), and the way The Doctor is acting. He knows they are going to die, so maybe he is tring to have what fun he can with them while he is able to. Loosing the Ponds, and River could possible drive him to where we see him now.
Personally, I would love this.

Edit: I have found something else referencing the theory, but the theory itsself I cannot find. Ill look later when I get home for where I saw it exactly and post it, as it may have more details, but no garuntee.

[dps]

Just actually got around to watching ATCM, so avoided reading this thread (even if I haven't posted often), and with all the discussion I just skimmed it to be honest, so sorry if it has been mentioned but;

And this theory does contain spoilers I suppose, if you have been purposefully avoiding what spoilers have been givin about what is going to happen this season.

Spoiler

Show

There is a theory I saw out on the webs, that we are actually seeing everything out of order. That this season's timeline(in respect to the Doctor) is Amy & Rory's last episode, 1,2,3,4. or 1,5,2,3,4. Ill try to find it again, I think I saw it on reddit. But they key points were A Pond's life, with the doctor bouncing around and the 'you're in danger!' (Although personally I think this is just comedy), The way the opening is constantly getting darker(I honestly thought it was my TV), and the way The Doctor is acting. He knows they are going to die, so maybe he is tring to have what fun he can with them while he is able to. Loosing the Ponds, and River could possible drive him to where we see him now.
Personally, I would love this.

Not me. Personally, I'm getting tired of all the timey-wimey stuff in Nu Who. I think I said this before, but in Classic Who, time travel was usually used just to get the Doctor and companions to the adventure of the week; in Nu Who, it's all to often used as a reset button or way to get the characters out of a jam. It's basically a cheat, and I wish they'd stop doing it.

Now what you suggest isn't strictly speaking a reset or solution, but it's still more mucking around with time.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Not me. Personally, I'm getting tired of all the timey-wimey stuff in Nu Who. I think I said this before, but in Classic Who, time travel was usually used just to get the Doctor and companions to the adventure of the week; in Nu Who, it's all to often used as a reset button or way to get the characters out of a jam. It's basically a cheat, and I wish they'd stop doing it.

Now what you suggest isn't strictly speaking a reset or solution, but it's still more mucking around with time.

Honestly seems to be more of an 11th thing too. I don't remember 9th or 10th abusing it to this degree. (They're not completely innocent, but yhea.)

Besides, there's a reason chronological order is the most popular way of story telling, it minimizes confusion.

[Xondoure]

Not me. Personally, I'm getting tired of all the timey-wimey stuff in Nu Who. I think I said this before, but in Classic Who, time travel was usually used just to get the Doctor and companions to the adventure of the week; in Nu Who, it's all to often used as a reset button or way to get the characters out of a jam. It's basically a cheat, and I wish they'd stop doing it.

Now what you suggest isn't strictly speaking a reset or solution, but it's still more mucking around with time.

Well, this would be linear from Amy and Rory's perspective, simply nonlinear for the doctor. Which is a natural consequence of time travel. And having Eleven mention how old he is does seem to be the way we've been tracking how much he knows.

[Cen]

I was thinking... don't you have a feeling that in comparison to 9 and 10, 11 is not doing very much? I mean, yeah he has all kinds of wacky adventures and funny stuff going around but 9 and 10 were saving earth/universe from invasions, aliens and monsters every other week and 11 is just... well, most often he is just goofing around.

Have you noticed it too? doesn't it annoy you?

[Xondoure]

I was thinking... don't you have a feeling that in comparison to 9 and 10, 11 is not doing very much? I mean, yeah he has all kinds of wacky adventures and funny stuff going around but 9 and 10 were saving earth/universe from invasions, aliens and monsters every other week and 11 is just... well, most often he is just goofing around.

Have you noticed it too? doesn't it annoy you?

The opposite, I enjoy it a lot. Saving the world every other day for cheap drama was one of my least favorite things about 9 and 10's run.

[dps]

The opposite, I enjoy it a lot. Saving the world every other day for cheap drama was one of my least favorite things about 9 and 10's run.

Except for some of the straight historicals early in the original show's run, where the Doctor sometimes did mostly just observe, Saving the Day(tm) is what Doctor Who is all about.

However, what constitutes Saving the Day(tm) is subject to change. In a story like The Caves of Androzani, it's pretty much just a matter of the Doctor getting himself and his companion(s) out of the situation alive (this is pretty much the case in AotD, come to think of it). In others, it's stopping an invasion or stopping a rampaging monster. In others, it's really big scale, saving the entire universe or even multiple universes.

Looking at the first 3 stories of this year, in AotD, it's just getting out of the situation, as mentioned above. In DoaS, it's stopping a rampaging monster ('cause, if you get down to it, that's what Solomon was, even if he was human or at least humanoid). In ATCM, it initially appeared to be stopping a rampaging monster (again,

Spoiler

Show

despite being sentient, that's how the Gunslinger appears at first

), but then it turns out that it's really about solving a moral dilemma (and

Spoiler

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the Doctor doesn't quite manage to solve it--in the end Jex solves it for him

).

And I'm perfectly fine with that. Every story shouldn't be about saving the whole world, and stories about saving the whole universe should be rare (especially a lot rarer than they've been in the revived show).

[NikitaDarkstar]

I was thinking... don't you have a feeling that in comparison to 9 and 10, 11 is not doing very much? I mean, yeah he has all kinds of wacky adventures and funny stuff going around but 9 and 10 were saving earth/universe from invasions, aliens and monsters every other week and 11 is just... well, most often he is just goofing around.

Have you noticed it too? doesn't it annoy you?

Ehh, 11 does this quite a bit too, he just has a different attitude about it. But all of them sort of had one thing in mind and ended up doing a completely different thing. And honestly, it's nice to not have everything on a universe-wide scale all the time.

[Philistine]

I was thinking... don't you have a feeling that in comparison to 9 and 10, 11 is not doing very much? I mean, yeah he has all kinds of wacky adventures and funny stuff going around but 9 and 10 were saving earth/universe from invasions, aliens and monsters every other week and 11 is just... well, most often he is just goofing around.

Have you noticed it too? doesn't it annoy you?

Noticed it. Vastly, vastly prefer it. One of the glaring weaknesses of Davies's run was the way the show (meaning Davies) kept trying to top what had been done before by constantly raising the stakes, using "the fate of the world/galaxy/universe" as a crutch to generate artificial tension. But we always knew the world/galaxy/universe wasn't going to be destroyed, so every time Davies reached for that crutch it was harder and harder to believe it… or care. It resulted in Apocalypse Fatigue. Reining things in, bringing them back down to a more personal scale, allows the Doctor to occasionally lose a battle - and that's good for drama. That lets the show build actual tension. That's just straight-up better television.

[CelestialStick]

Except for some of the straight historicals early in the original show's run, where the Doctor sometimes did mostly just observe, Saving the Day(tm) is what Doctor Who is all about.

However, what constitutes Saving the Day(tm) is subject to change. In a story like The Caves of Androzani, it's pretty much just a matter of the Doctor getting himself and his companion(s) out of the situation alive (this is pretty much the case in AotD, come to think of it). In others, it's stopping an invasion or stopping a rampaging monster. In others, it's really big scale, saving the entire universe or even multiple universes.

Looking at the first 3 stories of this year, in AotD, it's just getting out of the situation, as mentioned above. In DoaS, it's stopping a rampaging monster ('cause, if you get down to it, that's what Solomon was, even if he was human or at least humanoid). In ATCM, it initially appeared to be stopping a rampaging monster (again,

Spoiler

Show

despite being sentient, that's how the Gunslinger appears at first

), but then it turns out that it's really about solving a moral dilemma (and

Spoiler

Show

the Doctor doesn't quite manage to solve it--in the end Jex solves it for him

).

And I'm perfectly fine with that. Every story shouldn't be about saving the whole world, and stories about saving the whole universe should be rare (especially a lot rarer than they've been in the revived show).

Well said. I concur.

[Tergon]

Could not agree more. That's the whole point of the Doctor! Whenever he asks a new companion where they want to go, you can see it in his eyes - they're going to name some spectacular event, or some huge deal, or some critical moment in the history of the world or the universe, and to him that's just so boring. The Doctor was there when World War Two ended, probably more than once. He doesn't want to see it again. He wants to the 12th of August, 1752, and ask a Dutch sailor if he really thinks that seeing a red sky at night is a reason to be happy or sad. He says it best in A Christmas Carol: "900 years of time and space and I've never met anyone that wasn't important." Because to him it all is. He wants to see the small events that nobody cares about. Yes, he could watch the birth of the Sun and he could watch the collapse of the Milky Way but honestly, he'd rather go and learn how to pickle olives perfectly from someone in ancient Rome.

The same applies to the threats he faces. He knows with certainty that the Universe will keep on ticking, which is why he doesn't go and stop every war that's ever happened in the history of the Universe, because that's just so unimportant to him. But somewhere there's a crying child and that matters more than all the rest of the Universe put together, and what's more it makes for much, much better viewing. We already know that the Doctor would risk his life to save the Universe, but that's boring because so would any hero. Instead I'll watch him risk his life to save a busload of people and the inventor of the shoelace from being unmade in a time rift, because that is so much better.

[CelestialStick]

Could not agree more. That's the whole point of the Doctor! Whenever he asks a new companion where they want to go, you can see it in his eyes - they're going to name some spectacular event, or some huge deal, or some critical moment in the history of the world or the universe, and to him that's just so boring. The Doctor was there when World War Two ended, probably more than once. He doesn't want to see it again. He wants to the 12th of August, 1752, and ask a Dutch sailor if he really thinks that seeing a red sky at night is a reason to be happy or sad. He says it best in A Christmas Carol: "900 years of time and space and I've never met anyone that wasn't important." Because to him it all is. He wants to see the small events that nobody cares about. Yes, he could watch the birth of the Sun and he could watch the collapse of the Milky Way but honestly, he'd rather go and learn how to pickle olives perfectly from someone in ancient Rome.

The same applies to the threats he faces. He knows with certainty that the Universe will keep on ticking, which is why he doesn't go and stop every war that's ever happened in the history of the Universe, because that's just so unimportant to him. But somewhere there's a crying child and that matters more than all the rest of the Universe put together, and what's more it makes for much, much better viewing. We already know that the Doctor would risk his life to save the Universe, but that's boring because so would any hero. Instead I'll watch him risk his life to save a busload of people and the inventor of the shoelace from being unmade in a time rift, because that is so much better.

Well once in a while he stoops from an anonymous Dutch sailor to saving the universe. Sometimes he's a leaf on the wind too.

[Sunken Valley]

Noticed it. Vastly, vastly prefer it. One of the glaring weaknesses of Davies's run was the way the show (meaning Davies) kept trying to top what had been done before by constantly raising the stakes, using "the fate of the world/galaxy/universe" as a crutch to generate artificial tension. But we always knew the world/galaxy/universe wasn't going to be destroyed, so every time Davies reached for that crutch it was harder and harder to believe it… or care. It resulted in Apocalypse Fatigue. Reining things in, bringing them back down to a more personal scale, allows the Doctor to occasionally lose a battle - and that's good for drama. That lets the show build actual tension. That's just straight-up better television.

Right because the destruction of the entire non-earth universe, an alternate reality where all times are mashed together and THE DEATH OF THE DOCTOR are not apocalypse fatigue.

I get what you are saying, at least Moffat is going to different places instead of "All UK is London" like Davis did but Moffat's run still has apocalypse

[CelestialStick]

Right because the destruction of the entire non-earth universe, an alternate reality where all times are mashed together and THE DEATH OF THE DOCTOR are not apocalypse fatigue.

I get what you are saying, at least Moffat is going to different places instead of "All UK is London" like Davis did but Moffat's run still has apocalypse

Well every once in a while it's good for the Doctor to take a vacation from saving the universe and go somewhere like the Leisure Hive where nothing's happening--absolutely nothing.

[Xondoure]

Right because the destruction of the entire non-earth universe, an alternate reality where all times are mashed together and THE DEATH OF THE DOCTOR are not apocalypse fatigue.

I get what you are saying, at least Moffat is going to different places instead of "All UK is London" like Davis did but Moffat's run still has apocalypse

True, but it's much better, and as others have said foregoing the apocalypse all together would hardly be Doctor Who either. Middle ground is needed.

[CelestialStick]

True, but it's much better, and as others have said foregoing the apocalypse all together would hardly be Doctor Who either. Middle ground is needed.

Two words: Leisure Hive.

[Calemyr]

Right because the destruction of the entire non-earth universe, an alternate reality where all times are mashed together and THE DEATH OF THE DOCTOR are not apocalypse fatigue.

I get what you are saying, at least Moffat is going to different places instead of "All UK is London" like Davis did but Moffat's run still has apocalypse

I think there's a different tone to it, as well.

Davies tends to be "And I will be able to destroy the world and there's nothing you can do to stop me. All I have to do is... push... this... tiny... little... bright... red... pretty... doomsday... butto- Oh, you stopped me."

Moffat's tend to be "Oh crap, we broke reality with that last stunt, didn't we? Okay, so how do we sort this mess out?"

Davies did a good job in Season 1, and season 3 would have been spectacular if it hadn't been for Tinkerbell Jesus (seriously. Remove the Doctor from the last episode and it would have been epic). But it's a bit refreshing to see a story that takes place after Volcano Day rather than the minutes leading up to it.

And yes, I know season 3's ending took place after the Master's takeover, but it also takes place just before the Master sets the Earth at war with the universe, and even makes the ticking clock a plot point. So while it was a promising concept, it doesn't really count for this.

[Weezer]

I think there's a different tone to it, as well.

Davies tends to be "And I will be able to destroy the world and there's nothing you can do to stop me. All I have to do is... push... this... tiny... little... bright... red... pretty... doomsday... butto- Oh, you stopped me."

Moffat's tend to be "Oh crap, we broke reality with that last stunt, didn't we? Okay, so how do we sort this mess out?"

Davies did a good job in Season 1, and season 3 would have been spectacular if it hadn't been for Tinkerbell Jesus (seriously. Remove the Doctor from the last episode and it would have been epic). But it's a bit refreshing to see a story that takes place after Volcano Day rather than the minutes leading up to it.
And yes, I know season 3's ending took place after the Master's takeover, but it also takes place just before the Master sets the Earth at war with the universe, and even makes the ticking clock a plot point. So while it was a promising concept, it doesn't really count for this.

I think the big difference is that the Moffat finales are all Doctor centered, the first was people trying to trap the Doctor followed by a still unexplained Tardis explosion (we really do need an answer to that one...) and the second was about River (not) killing the Doctor. While they both dealt with end of the universe stuff, the central question and problem was not some outside force trying to invade/destroy everything, but rather the problem was focused around the Doctor and his companions.

[CelestialStick]

I think there's a different tone to it, as well.

Davies tends to be "And I will be able to destroy the world and there's nothing you can do to stop me. All I have to do is... push... this... tiny... little... bright... red... pretty... doomsday... butto- Oh, you stopped me."

Moffat's tend to be "Oh crap, we broke reality with that last stunt, didn't we? Okay, so how do we sort this mess out?"

Davies did a good job in Season 1, and season 3 would have been spectacular if it hadn't been for Tinkerbell Jesus (seriously. Remove the Doctor from the last episode and it would have been epic). But it's a bit refreshing to see a story that takes place after Volcano Day rather than the minutes leading up to it.

And yes, I know season 3's ending took place after the Master's takeover, but it also takes place just before the Master sets the Earth at war with the universe, and even makes the ticking clock a plot point. So while it was a promising concept, it doesn't really count for this.

Oh, I hated the new stuff with the Master. I mean for a few moments it was good to see the talented Derek Jacoby, of "I, Claudius" fame, playing the Master--Jacoby was by far the best since poor Roger Delgado died in that tragic auto accident while Jon Pertwee was the Doctor--but once he changed into that little snot, what was his name? John Simm?--with his stupid flying aircraft carrier, it was all down hill.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, I hated the new stuff with the Master. I mean for a few moments it was good to see the talented Derek Jacoby, of "I, Claudius" fame, playing the Master--Jacoby was by far the best since poor Roger Delgado died in that tragic auto accident while Jon Pertwee was the Doctor--but once he changed into that little snot, what was his name? John Simm?--with his stupid flying aircraft carrier, it was all down hill.

I, on the other hand, never found the Master quite so imposing as in the End of Time, in what was what I thought a rather masterful (aha) sequence that was equal parts funny and horrifying...

It even gave me some insight into Madara Uchiha (or what/whoever the heck he is now, I dunno) and how his Eye of the Moon plan wasn't completely silly, but actually rather horrifiying, because one imagines that would have had (will have?) a similar result.

[CelestialStick]

I, on the other hand, never found the Master quite so imposing as in the End of Time, in what was what I thought a rather masterful (aha) sequence that was equal parts funny and horrifying...

It even gave me some insight into Madara Uchiha (or what/whoever the heck he is now, I dunno) and how his Eye of the Moon plan wasn't completely silly, but actually rather horrifiying, because one imagines that would have had (will have?) a similar result.

Someone liked the talentless, snarky, snot-nosed kid Master? Oy.

[Aotrs Commander]

Someone liked the talentless, snarky, snot-nosed kid Master? Oy.

I still find it surprising that some people liked Rose, so go figure...

But different tastes and all that...

[dps]

I think there's a different tone to it, as well.

Davies tends to be "And I will be able to destroy the world and there's nothing you can do to stop me. All I have to do is... push... this... tiny... little... bright... red... pretty... doomsday... butto- Oh, you stopped me."

Which is just another way of saying that the good guys win because the bad guy grabbed the idiot ball at the last moment. Granted, that happens a lot in Classis Who as well, and not just when the bad guy is threatening all of creation. Heck, I bet it's the most common ending in all of fiction, even good fiction--they good guys win because the bad guys wastes time explaining his plans and gloating, instead of just taking care of business.

Given how common this is, I find it difficult to be too hard on Doctor Who in general or RTD in specific for using it.

Moffat's tend to be "Oh crap, we broke reality with that last stunt, didn't we? Okay, so how do we sort this mess out?"

And then the answer is "We'll set up a stable time loop and remember everything back into existance!". "Uh, how does that work?". "Wibbly-wobbly, timey wimey!". OK, that originated with Ten, but still it's been a staple of Moffat's, and frankly it rankles me because A) it's a cop-out, B) even if it weren't a cop-out, we've seen it often enough now that it's getting boring, and C) it's a reset button and it tends to make at least some of what happened before meaningless--so sure, it was cool to see Amy put the eye-drive back on Madame Kovarian's eye, especially since Amy got to say two really neat lines, but guess what--that was in a timeline that never existed after the reset, so it never actually happened.

[dps]

I still find it surprising that some people liked Rose, so go figure...

But different tastes and all that...

Heck, I've seen videos on YouTube where someone lists their Top 10 favorite companions and have Mel as their #1.

[Aotrs Commander]

Heck, I've seen videos on YouTube where someone lists their Top 10 favorite companions and have Mel as their #1.

I...would like to say I'm surprised at that, but I'm really not... No accounting for taste...

(Says the Lich whose primary criterion for quality Doctor Who is "Whether There Is a Dalek Slash Starship Battle In It.")

[CelestialStick]

I still find it surprising that some people liked Rose, so go figure...

But different tastes and all that...

Different tastes are "I didn't care for Peter Davison" (usually from someone who started with Tom Baker) or "I prefer Tom Baker to Jon Pertwee" (also usually from someone who started with Tom Baker, not "I really liked the talentless, snot-nosed snarky bart at the Master," but then being surprised that people liked Rose probably goes a long way to explaining it.

Heck, I've seen videos on YouTube where someone lists their Top 10 favorite companions and have Mel as their #1.

Mel was fun. She was perky and cute, not as hot as Peri, but not whiney like Peri either. She was actually a good companion for the Colin Baker Doctor and she could just sort of maneuver around his pomposity rather than getting rolled over by it like Peri did. Mel actually made the 6th Doctor endearing.

I don't think I would have thought about Mel though if someone had asked me my favorite companion. Actually after watching Who for all these decades, I've never given any thought to who's my favorite companion. I don't really have an obvious favorite. Some people don't regard the Brigadier and Benton as companions because they didn't usually travel with the Doctor in the Tardis (which was mostly immobilized during Jon Pertwee's tenure anyway), but if they count I'd include them among my favorite. I'd also include Sarah Jane Smith and Leela. Definitely Ace. And Rose. And how could I forget Adric? Oh, and Amy Pond has really grown on me. I'm pretty sure I'm missing someone I liked, but can't think whom. Oh, Jamie and Zoe were fun.

[dps]

That does raise an interesting question of who was or wasn't a companion. My working definition is that a companion is someone who shared at least part of 2 on-screen adventures with the Doctor and traveled with him on the Tardis at some point. There are some problems with that, though, particularly with some of the UNIT-era characters. Also, the BBC and a lot fans seem to acknowledge Sara Kingdom and the main guest characters from some of the Nu Who specials as companions, but it's hard to see why you'd consider, say, Astrid Peth from "Voyage of the Damned" a companion but not, say Lynda (with a "Y") from "Bad Wolf"/"The Parting of the Ways"--they were both characters that the Doctor said he would take with him, but both died before the end of the story (the same thing applies to Rita from "The God Complex"); if you count one of them, it seems that you should count the other 2 as well. (There are probably other characters that the Doctor said he'd have travel with him that didn't--not necessarily just because they died first--that I don't recall right now.) And I see even less reason to include someone like Madge from last year's Christmas Special, but some people do. And I have no idea how to handle Grace Holloway and a few other characters.