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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Very mixed reaction for the power of three:

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    The funny bits were wonderfully funny, I loved the "little schoolboy" in the doctor who started increasing the number of times he'd kicked the ball and then called for mum (well Amy in this case) to come and look. Though while it was very funny it pointed out the uncharacteristic darkness of other episodes this season.

    Brian was wonderful, I want to see more of him. He remained fantastic after a repeat showing, that usually doesn't happen.

    Plot and pacing wise... this was suppose to be a 2 parter. I'm not saying that because traditionally 2 parters happen about now in the season, I'm saying that because of the pacing and story. There is a long build up before anyting happens with the cubes, which works wonderfully if they plan on having a following epsiode explain things. Heck, the cubes would have made a wonderful season long arch with the threat that they'd set up. I mean, you have a looming threat which doesn't seem to do anything aimed at provoking humanity into destroying itself, and the culprit behind it is nothing other than the boogeymen of the Time-Lords; an interdepartmental, extra-temporal, judge jury and executioner... a very literal Auditor of Reality.

    Then you've got the questions that get raised: Why were they kidnapping some humans and holding them in that interdemensional ship? What exactly had cause the cops outside of time to choose that moment to attack humanity. With the Sontorans, The Cybermen... heck most Extra Terrestrial threats it can be as simple as: because they happened to stumble on earth at that point, but for a species that exists outside of time they could choose any moment in the span of time and space to exterminate "the human plauge" including humanities original evolution.

    If they established that, say for example Torchwood's defiance of species 456, or the incident with the Atraxi, or even just the existence of the Ponds (and therefore River Songs) were essential to the continued functioning of time, then they have place for a philosophical discussion between the Doctor and the Auditor on how that proves humanity is more than a Plauge, but is important. Then you have a second episode themed around the Doctor's charge to prove the worth of Humanity. During that we find out what the captured humans were for, what the cube mouths are, and we have a fun point to end the 2 parter on. (Still blow up the doom ship because they couldn't prove humanity's worth and leave earth with a warning to become better, or make a defense on the virtues of humanity and cause the aliens to stand down... and continue with the "Doctor Who" thing.


    On the puntastic ending "Power of Three." bit - thing is... Amy didn't really do anything. Rory was off trying to save people, found the lift portal - though he didn't tell anyone - and the doctor soniced everything. So, Amy's self congratulatory "power of three" bit at the end came off really flat to me.


    Overall it was a fun episode, the funny bits were great, but it left me rather disappointed all the same.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperPanda View Post

    Overall it was a fun episode, the funny bits were great, but it left me rather disappointed all the same.
    While I liked it more than you appear to have done, I did have a bit of a "the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts" reaction to this one as well.

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Thufir View Post
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    Plus, the threat was really much less significant to the quality of this episode than all the character moments. Amy and Rory's struggle between real life and Doctor-life, with Brian looking on; and the Doctor clinging to his companions even though he knows it can't last forever. Plus the Doctor's difficulties with patience, a look at the new Lethbridge-Stewart, and the Doctor reaffirming his faith in humanity to a monster from the cautionary tales of his childhood.
    That's true, and those parts I enjoyed, but the episode still felt very flawed, which spoiled the enjoyment a bit for me.

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    Also, the voiceover. Gods, the voiceover.


    Thoughts of next episode premiere

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    On one hand, River Song, that I don't particularly like. On the other hand, weeping Angels, that I don't particu... oh, well. I won't have high expectations, which means I can only be pleasantly surprised.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    I think a lot of that episode is setting up for the future.

    Also they didn't forget about them? Isn't that what Amy and Rory were doing before they ran back to the Doctor

    Also, some speculation:
    In "A Town Called Mercy", the Doctor mentions something about Rory leaving is cell phone charger in Henry the VII's suite, and here in this episode they actually go to Henry the VII. Something timey wimey is going on here.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
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    I think a lot of that episode is setting up for the future.

    Also they didn't forget about them? Isn't that what Amy and Rory were doing before they ran back to the Doctor

    Also, some speculation:
    In "A Town Called Mercy", the Doctor mentions something about Rory leaving is cell phone charger in Henry the VII's suite, and here in this episode they actually go to Henry the VII. Something timey wimey is going on here.
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    I got the impression the events of A Town Called Mercy happened during the seven week period of the Pond's anniversary trip.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
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    I think a lot of that episode is setting up for the future.

    Also they didn't forget about them? Isn't that what Amy and Rory were doing before they ran back to the Doctor

    Also, some speculation:
    In "A Town Called Mercy", the Doctor mentions something about Rory leaving is cell phone charger in Henry the VII's suite, and here in this episode they actually go to Henry the VII. Something timey wimey is going on here.
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    A common theory is that some or all of the first 3 episodes happen after the Pond's final appearence. It's based on the mini-episode where he does turn up in their bedroom after they leave the show.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by The Extinguisher View Post
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    Also, some speculation:
    In "A Town Called Mercy", the Doctor mentions something about Rory leaving is cell phone charger in Henry the VII's suite, and here in this episode they actually go to Henry the VII. Something timey wimey is going on here.
    Agreed on the timey-wimey, but it could be something along the lines of 10 and Elizabeth I.

    My turn for questions:

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    I did like the part where Brian asked the Doctor a very pointed question about what happens to his companions and the Doctor gave him an honest answer.

    Looking into his previous Companions, the various Doctors have had 2 deaths (Adric and Katarina) out of the 44 Companions who have had more than 1 adventure with him, so what he says is true, that they very rarely die.

    I'm not sure how to count River, since she got downloaded to a computer to live her 'life' out, much like the android Kamelion and Jack got better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
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    A common theory is that some or all of the first 3 episodes happen after the Pond's final appearence. It's based on the mini-episode where he does turn up in their bedroom after they leave the show.
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    Is it? I thought the Doctor was complaining that he was too early when he turned up in their bedroom.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-09-23 at 06:15 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    ...

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    Is it? I thought the Doctor was complaining that he was too early when he turned up in their bedroom.
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    He is, but he has flashbacks to at least Dinos on a Spaceship, so that must have happened already by the time he turns up in their bedroom.
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  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
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    He is, but he has flashbacks to at least Dinos on a Spaceship, so that must have happened already by the time he turns up in their bedroom.
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    And Dinos happened before this episode which seems to have happened before a Town called Mercy. Asylum has happened somewhere after Closing Time, and its not clear if either of those have happened yet at this point, though it makes sense to say that it already has considering this episodes ends with them choosing the Doctor over normal lives.

    I'm not opposed to Doctor Who episodes happening in the wrong order, but I'd love it to be related to a greater theme or reason later on. if they do that then brilliant! Excellent work. If they don't, well then it will have been needlessly confusing and frustrating.


    On the episode: I loved it in many respects. There were a lot of truly funny bits and wonderful character moments, but it ended so abruptly with a build up for what was looking to be a truly amazing two parter and I was left wondering where the other half of it was.

    Like other episodes this season, its left me with a lot of questions about the direction the production staff has chosen to go in, questions and thoughts about the factors of the meta-narrative instead of questions about the factors in the narrative.

    Each episode this season and last has been rewarding and fun (yes even the pirates to their own extent), while never-the-less failing to deliver... something.

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    I almost feel as though the odd motivations driving the story and the half presented personal conflicts which get hurriedly resolved combine with the randomly grandiose side stories that never get shown to create a glimpse into the mind of the shows curator, but only into those parts of it which house the monsters. The powerful women who need motherhood/men to be completed, the child-like Doctor suddenly turned cold blooded murderer because its okay so long as you kill the bad people, the Human turned Dalek being sacrifice-able because Monsters don't count as people, the woman who is needed to spend eternity in prison because of a crime she was forced to commit against her will and which we discover she didn't actually succeed at. The idea that we can make a populous cheer at the destruction of millions of lives because the hero got angry - Cybermen fleet- as long as the lives are different enough from our own.

    Dealing with the Silent was a clever bit of somewhat darker story, but pretty cool all the same. I don't have as much of a problem with that as I do with moments in "A Goodman goes to war" but more because of what the latter says about us as an audience.

    What I find myself feeling is that in many ways the show is doing a better job than ever at presenting "Human beings, greatest monsters of them all." as a theme, but also seems to be doing it unconsciously and unintentionally.

    When I first got into NuWho I found myself rewarded for getting caught up in the story and character development. Rose, Jack, 9, 10, Harriet Jones, Donna... all of them had believable (though often frustrating) character traits that developed for a time until their stories were done. Davies had trouble letting them stay done (and dead) and the Torchwood duo are really the only characters I feel he's done well with.

    11 started out brilliant beyond any comparison to 9 or 10, Season 5 was fantastic and he became The Doctor all over again so fast I almost forgot about 10 entirely. Season 6 had fantastic stand alone episodes and a plot arch that bugged me because it felt like nothing but pomp and circumstance. This season has thus far been wonderful in so many of its moment that I get frustrated that the episodes feel like they weren't thought out (Except Dinos.. A little work on Neffie and a companion confrontation over the missiles and it would have been fantastic.

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
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    He is, but he has flashbacks to at least Dinos on a Spaceship, so that must have happened already by the time he turns up in their bedroom.
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    The way I understood that, was that Dinos on a ship had happened for him, but not yet happened for them - I think the video said 'May' and Asylum doesn't happen until after August where Amy and Rory separate.

    Since Rory and Amy are together for Dinos, Mercy and 3 (and again in Angels, it looks like), it suggests that the season thus far has happened in chronological order for them (not to mention Brian remembers the Doctor from Dinos).

    I'm assuming that there's was an off screen threat that required the Doctor to get the Ponds, much like their 7 week adventure during their wedding anniversary.

    I suspect the charger incident was them visiting Henry VIII later in his timeline, then in a later adventure (for them) they visit him in an earlier time period, much like how Liz I was hostile to 10 on their first meeting (The Shakespeare Code) because of his later actions (The End of Time) earlier in her timeline.

    Gah, all these tenses are starting to give me a headache...

  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    the only reason I'm not flat out condemning this episode is that I like Dr Who and he and the ther characters had a few funny bits.
    the plot made no sense and wasn't well balanced.
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    the threat was a race of space auditors.. who we never get to see, except for a hologram, and who are still out there, utterly untouched by the Doctor's countermeasures, which makes this either an episode leading up to further confrontations or..something that shouldn't have happened.
    I would feel more threatened by a damp tissue.
    Their effectiveness was less than spectacular and basically brushed aside by a stroke of sonic screwdriver.
    The build-up to their "moment of inducing fear" was disturbed by the other plotline, which sucked the suspense right out of it.
    The modified/alien nurses who kidnapped other people made even less sense, went unexplained and had no declared purpose other than studying people's biology, something the cubes did on their own accord. The alien/cyborg child/satelite dish.. meh.. pointless..not a threat, not a real help to the Doctor, not a clue for anything other than "oh, look..we can make people look like smurfs"
    Just how many further unguarded and unprotected teleport devices will we see before someone realizes that nobody leaves the backdoor to their armored tank open for the enemy to come visit?
    So the cubes were left there for what.. a year?.. and people still hadn't binned them out of sheer boredom? yeah..right.
    I have no idea how I would change the episode to save it.. other than maybe create some sort of "endangerement of reality" connected to the Doctor's..unbalance/uncertainty/emotional distress.. forgetting all about the cubes and the rest of that particular menace.
    Pond Sr. was funny even though he's kind of walking in the footsteps of Grandpa Cribbins/Mott.
    this episode was trying to walk at 2-3 different paces at the same time, and didn't do any of them terribly well. I liked the whole Dr Who feels lonely and sad and responsible and the anguish that comes with.. it just was a bit hamfisted and it interfered with the other plot rather than complementing it or ..having anything to do with it.
    and the "power of 3" line may sound impressive..but I have yet to understand what they actually meant by it other than trying to look cool. was it a not so subtle reference to the Dr+ the Ponds? so..your point?.. was it something else??


    so no.. I can't say I'm impressed by this episode.
    Last edited by dehro; 2012-09-23 at 07:36 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #552
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    the only reason I'm not flat out condemning this episode is that I like Dr Who and he and the ther characters had a few funny bits.
    the plot made no sense and wasn't well balanced.
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    the threat was a race of space auditors.. who we never get to see, except for a hologram, and who are still out there, utterly untouched by the Doctor's countermeasures, which makes this either an episode leading up to further confrontations or..something that shouldn't have happened.
    I would feel more threatened by a damp tissue.
    Their effectiveness was less than spectacular and basically brushed aside by a stroke of sonic screwdriver.
    The build-up to their "moment of inducing fear" was disturbed by the other plotline, which sucked the suspense right out of it.
    The modified/alien nurses who kidnapped other people made even less sense, went unexplained and had no declared purpose other than studying people's biology, something the cubes did on their own accord. The alien/cyborg child/satelite dish.. meh.. pointless..not a threat, not a real help to the Doctor, not a clue for anything other than "oh, look..we can make people look like smurfs"
    Just how many further unguarded and unprotected teleport devices will we see before someone realizes that nobody leaves the backdoor to their armored tank open for the enemy to come visit?
    So the cubes were left there for what.. a year?.. and people still hadn't binned them out of sheer boredom? yeah..right.
    I have no idea how I would change the episode to save it.. other than maybe create some sort of "endangerement of reality" connected to the Doctor's..unbalance/uncertainty/emotional distress.. forgetting all about the cubes and the rest of that particular menace.
    Pond Sr. was funny even though he's kind of walking in the footsteps of Grandpa Cribbins/Mott.
    this episode was trying to walk at 2-3 different paces at the same time, and didn't do any of them terribly well. I liked the whole Dr Who feels lonely and sad and responsible and the anguish that comes with.. it just was a bit hamfisted and it interfered with the other plot rather than complementing it or ..having anything to do with it.
    and the "power of 3" line may sound impressive..but I have yet to understand what they actually meant by it other than trying to look cool. was it a not so subtle reference to the Dr+ the Ponds? so..your point?.. was it something else??


    so no.. I can't say I'm impressed by this episode.
    I couldn't get myself to read whole of your post because I was distracted by you calling the Doctor 'Dr. Who' all the time. His name is The Doctor. 'Doctor Who' is the name of the show.
    Last edited by Cen; 2012-09-23 at 09:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    and the "power of 3" line may sound impressive..but I have yet to understand what they actually meant by it other than trying to look cool. was it a not so subtle reference to the Dr+ the Ponds? so..your point?.. was it something else??
    Unspoilered because it doesn't really reveal anything about the plot--yes, "the power of three" is supposed to refer to the threesome of The Doctor, Amy, and Rory; an it's a pun about cubes--a number raised to the power of three is also referred to as the number cubed, much as a number raised to the power of two is referred to as the number squared. It's a bit of a lame pun, really, but to get it you have to understand about powers in the mathematical sense.

    Oh, and I saw a review somewhere that pointed out that there is another reason that the number three is a theme in this episode--
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    there are a number of call-backs to the Third Doctor. UNIT, which was prominent in the Third Doctor's era is back, and the Doctor solves the problem by reversing the polarity of the cubes (the Third Doctor "reversed the polarity" a lot). There were probably others that I missed.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Since I'm late as always I decided not to quote anything and keep my response short... as short as possible.

    Overall, the episode had potential but... then really went downwards.
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    I won't agree with it needing to be a two parter. I claim they should have removed the threat part entirely and just made it a happy go lucky episode with the cubes being... a prank or something.

    I loved the character interactions (even though... I REALLY can't believe Bryan kept surveying the cube for one year. That's way too long) and what it did about their lives and feelings and... stuff. Also, I liked quite a few of the hijinks and jokes in it (like "You hover. I had a metal dog that could do that.")

    The cubes were interesting but... everything in the end and about the revelation was bad.
    Okay, admitting maybe they abducted people to study them, stopping their hearts is so overly complicated... and fixing the hearts after five or more minutes, probably much more is not a proper way to save a life... urgh. The alien race... came out of nowhere to destroy humanity and then disappears again? Well, maybe we will see them again. The people getting left behind... I'll accept the Doctor not expecting the ship blowing up (maybe) but it still leaves a poor taste in my mouth.

    No, really, I'd much rather have them use a different ending to the story... but it was still fun and that only spoiled like the last ten minutes... It was a fine episode, just not great.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    Unspoilered because it doesn't really reveal anything about the plot--yes, "the power of three" is supposed to refer to the threesome of The Doctor, Amy, and Rory; an it's a pun about cubes--a number raised to the power of three is also referred to as the number cubed, much as a number raised to the power of two is referred to as the number squared. It's a bit of a lame pun, really, but to get it you have to understand about powers in the mathematical sense.

    Oh, and I saw a review somewhere that pointed out that there is another reason that the number three is a theme in this episode--
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    there are a number of call-backs to the Third Doctor. UNIT, which was prominent in the Third Doctor's era is back, and the Doctor solves the problem by reversing the polarity of the cubes (the Third Doctor "reversed the polarity" a lot). There were probably others that I missed.
    I know about the meaning in the mathematical sense.. it just didn't work for me..in this context. it added nothing to it...because it had nothing to do, other than vaguelly hinting, with either their internal chemistry, the Doctor's emotional turmoil or the solution to this episode's crisis.

    I do like the content of your spoiler a lot more as explanations go..but that's something most people who are familiar only with nu-who, like myself, would totally miss.

    @Cen.. yeah.. I kind of stumble on that one, occasionally... lol
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    I know about the meaning in the mathematical sense.. it just didn't work for me..in this context. it added nothing to it...because it had nothing to do, other than vaguelly hinting, with either their internal chemistry, the Doctor's emotional turmoil or the solution to this episode's crisis.
    Well, I said it was lame.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    I actually liked this episode, it was well put together. Though I agree that it should probably have been a two-parter with the cubes and the dilemma forming all of act one (possibly expanding into the 7 week trip a bit) and the cubes becoming active right near the end. Also, cutting the various items like the two freaky surgeons and the abductions (possibly make the abducted into cube controlled bluemen like the little girl?) would do well. Episode ends when the cubes become active and part two delves into the last half of the episode a bit deeper and possibly creates a new memorable and partially recurring villain. At the end the Doctor and the Ponds leave on their final journey.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    So, something I saw today that may or may not give credit to the timeline theory posted earlier, (of course, spoilers). Or just a Moffat-level coincidence.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Pretty much agree with what most people are saying
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    some good character moments, but the threat was poorly realised and had too many dangling threads


    Also am I the only person that geeked out because Brian Cox cameoed?
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    ...

    Also am I the only person that geeked out because Brian Cox cameoed?
    Yes. Ok, probably not.

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    I think it would have been better without an enemy at all, the cubes were the catalyst for the Doctor being stuck in one place for a while and the way that affected the Ponds, which was good. If they just disappeared at the end and were never explained (not unlike the unintentional result of that cockroach alien in Star Trek TNG) then I would have been happy with that.

    However it is a show aimed at kids, so there always has to be a bad guy and there always has to be explosions, so what can you do.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    There doesn't always have to be a villian or explosions. There was no villian in either Curse of the Black Spot or The Girl Who Waited. Well, you can argue that the pirates were villians, but they're not the antagonists, and the handbots might have been antagonists, but they're not villians.

    And I don't really think that there was a villian in Vincent and the Doctor, either. The monster might have been a threat, but it was more of a threat in the sense that a wild animal can be a threat rather than being a villan, and it was a fairly minor subplot anyway (the episode might have been better, or at least as good, without it).
    Last edited by dps; 2012-09-25 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Weezer View Post
    I agree, Romana is my favorite of the old-Who companions, it was so unique having someone around who was the Doctor's equal in most respects and even his superior in others, especially in many things regarding theoretical/academic knowledge, cause apparently the Doctor unsurprisingly wasn't the best student. I think she was the one who started the trend of calling out the Doctor for being bad at flying the Tardis, which earned her a special place in my heart. I loved when after she left the Doctor would wish Romana was around so she could fix something.
    Yes, it was sad when Romana left. "You were the noblest Romana of them all." As I think I mentioned, I named my first cat after her. My Romana turned out to be my best companion too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Look, I'm not saying the original magnificently hammy bastard that the Master always acted like was anything other than brilliant, but the John Simm Master was fantastic in his own way. He was exactly as arrogant and egotistical as his old incarnations, but the new regeneration gave him a sense of humour. And what do you get when you give an arrogant, egotistical bastard a sense of humour? Pretty much the way John Simm played him. I thought it was a brilliant take on the Master.

    The Doctor is a classic Trickster archetype. No weapons, no aggression, and usually no idea what's going on, but he bumbles his way into the Apocalypse, fools the bad guys into blowing themselves up, shares a jelly baby or two with the survivors, and bumbles off again into the sunset. It's a big part of his charm and his character as well as why he's so good at what he does, because everyone always underestimates him.
    John Simm was the Master who took on this trait: He was an evil Trickster. He cackled, laughed, sneered, and then outwitted the Doctor. Multiple times. He defeated the Doctor, Captain Jack, and the entire world for entire year, only underestimating Martha. When he came back from the dead, he didn't even make that mistake - he tricked everyone into letting him copy himself onto every human in the world, and ultimately had the Doctor beaten until the returning Time Lords betrayed him. Say what you will about how you liked his portrayal, but he came closer to winning than any incarnation of the Master before him.

    Basically after thirteen regenerations of learning that his Evil Grand Vizier archetype wasn't giving him victories, he stole the Doctor's greatest weapon by becoming a Trickster like him. He was just as hammy and smug and unmistakably evil as he's always been, but now he did it with a grin on his face and cackling with genuine delight as he watched the world burn around him.

    You may not have liked it; but I loved it.
    The original Master definitely had a sense of humor. "Ah, tried and true methods are the best, Doctor," said with a grin. The difference is that the original Master, the Roger Delgado Master, had class as well as villainy. He even had an odd sentimental streak for the Doctor. I mean after all they were both renegades from the boring and oppressive Time Lords. Remember when, after having defeated the Doctor, the Master offered to share rule with the Doctor? Of course the Doctor said, "I want to see the universe, not rule it," but the fact that the Master really did want to share it with him showed a depth that the annoying, snarky, snot-nosed brat John Simm Master didn't have. I think it's a sad testament that so many people think "snarky" makes for a good villain. Even in Great Britain, which virtually invented class, there seems to be precious little left.

    It's too bad that they didn't keep Derek Jacoby as the Master. Now he has class. They could have brought in John Simms to play his snarky, snot-nosed son from whom the Master had to keep saving the world--after all, you can't rule it if your idiot son burns it down.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    You use the phrase "snot-nosed" a lot. Whatever else may be true of John Simm, his voice isn't nasal and he seemed to have a clean face aside from his stubble in The End Of Time.

    As for the rest of it... I take it that what you'd have liked is a carbon copy of the original Master? Honestly, I don't think he'd have made a good foil for Ten. Doing his regal stance, all soft-spoken and smug, he'd have been honestly pretty boring for the story he was inserted into. And I say that as someone who loved the original Master, yes, but aside from the occasional quip he really remained very standoffish and aloof. More of Ra's Al Ghul than the Joker, if you will. And while there is a time and a place for it, I don't believe that Ten's run was it.
    What we needed for the Master was him to remind us all that he truly is the Doctor's arch-nemesis, the corrupted and evil version of him. And that's what John Simm gave us: confident, self-assured, and nonchalant, even teasing those around him a little... until something pressed triggered him and suddenly he whirled into action, manic and shouting and cackling and moving too fast for anyone to realise what he was doing until he'd pushed just the right buttons to make everything blow up in the way that suited him best. He was, literally, the evil version of Ten, and he gave us the perfect counterpoint to him for that story.

    No, I couldn't have seen John Simm pull off some of the Master's classic stories, but then I couldn't see the "classic" Master pull off John Simm's role. Sometimes you want Batman to fight Ra's, and sometimes you want him to fight the Joker, and you know what? This was a story about the Master being the Joker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I liked it, and I liked his portrayal.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    You use the phrase "snot-nosed" a lot. Whatever else may be true of John Simm, his voice isn't nasal and he seemed to have a clean face aside from his stubble in The End Of Time.

    As for the rest of it... I take it that what you'd have liked is a carbon copy of the original Master? Honestly, I don't think he'd have made a good foil for Ten. Doing his regal stance, all soft-spoken and smug, he'd have been honestly pretty boring for the story he was inserted into. And I say that as someone who loved the original Master, yes, but aside from the occasional quip he really remained very standoffish and aloof. More of Ra's Al Ghul than the Joker, if you will. And while there is a time and a place for it, I don't believe that Ten's run was it.
    What we needed for the Master was him to remind us all that he truly is the Doctor's arch-nemesis, the corrupted and evil version of him. And that's what John Simm gave us: confident, self-assured, and nonchalant, even teasing those around him a little... until something pressed triggered him and suddenly he whirled into action, manic and shouting and cackling and moving too fast for anyone to realise what he was doing until he'd pushed just the right buttons to make everything blow up in the way that suited him best. He was, literally, the evil version of Ten, and he gave us the perfect counterpoint to him for that story.

    No, I couldn't have seen John Simm pull off some of the Master's classic stories, but then I couldn't see the "classic" Master pull off John Simm's role. Sometimes you want Batman to fight Ra's, and sometimes you want him to fight the Joker, and you know what? This was a story about the Master being the Joker, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I liked it, and I liked his portrayal.
    "Snot-nosed" is a colloquialism that means someone is young and stupid while nonetheless managing to be arrogant. That fits the Johns Simms version of the Master to a t. ("Fit to a t" is a colloquialism for "fits perfectly.") There's nothing boring about a three-dimensional, refined villain. There is something profoundly boring about yet another snarky, immature villain. Television if full of them.

    As for my wanting a carbon copy of the original Master, if you have any familiarity with Derek Jacoby, you know better. Jacoby's would have been refined and sophisticated, three-dimensional, but different from Delgado's just as David Warner's Ra's al Ghul was different than Liam Neeson's, even though both portrayed Ra's as refined and three-dimensional.

    The Master is not a homicidal maniac, and that's exactly the point. Ra's al Ghul isn't the Joker nor should he act like the Joker; The Master isn't the Joker nor should he act like the Joker either. Delgado's Master was evil but not insane; Simm's Idiot Son of the Master was evil and insane. In fact they made him so insane that it's questionable whether he even had the mental competence to distinguish good from evil.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    I'm aware of what Snot Nosed mean. It was an attempt at a joke. But regardless, if you don't like John Simm, that's your preference. You're unusually vitriolic about it, but I've said my piece. I liked his portrayal of the Master, and... well, that's about as far as it goes. We can agree to disagree.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick View Post
    "Snot-nosed" is a colloquialism that means someone is young and stupid while nonetheless managing to be arrogant. That fits the Johns Simms version of the Master to a t. ("Fit to a t" is a colloquialism for "fits perfectly.") There's nothing boring about a three-dimensional, refined villain. There is something profoundly boring about yet another snarky, immature villain. Television if full of them.

    As for my wanting a carbon copy of the original Master, if you have any familiarity with Derek Jacoby, you know better. Jacoby's would have been refined and sophisticated, three-dimensional, but different from Delgado's just as David Warner's Ra's al Ghul was different than Liam Neeson's, even though both portrayed Ra's as refined and three-dimensional.

    The Master is not a homicidal maniac, and that's exactly the point. Ra's al Ghul isn't the Joker nor should he act like the Joker; The Master isn't the Joker nor should he act like the Joker either. Delgado's Master was evil but not insane; Simm's Idiot Son of the Master was evil and insane. In fact they made him so insane that it's questionable whether he even had the mental competence to distinguish good from evil.
    Yet Ra's and the Joker do not have a set mechanic that can reset their personality. The Master does. Which is part of the fun of watching Doctor Who is that we get to see how the Doctor develops and how each iteration is different, sometimes drastically, from the one before him. The same can be done with the Master just fine, and I'd say Simms version portrays this rather well.

    As to him being insane, I'd argue that one. He's manic, but he has shown no actual signs of insanity (other than disregard for life, which the Master has always had). Also I would argue that the Master as presented by Simms was definitely a three dimensional character. His interaction with the Doctor throughout the second and third episodes should prove that rather easily. There's more to him than just being a fun guy villain, he actually has weight behind him and while the scene sucked his reaction to Tinkerbell!Doctor showed unseen caveats of the character that were further explored in the end of time specials and the conversations between him and the Doctor, as well as him and Rassalon. In any case three dimensional characters are great, but being serious or manic about it doesn't matter as one is not inherently better than the other outside of personal preference. Personally, I like the manic villains a bit more, and found Simms portrayal engaging, but that is a personal preference and in saying that I do not denounce Delgado as a boring stuck up highbrow or whatever infantile insults on his portrayal I could think up with enough time.

    As to him being an idiot, well, that's kind of completely negated in the episodes. Since he beats the Doctor two episodes in a row and runs the entire planet for a year, successfully manipulating just about everyone subconsciously, and planning for his own death.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2012-09-26 at 09:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    There doesn't always have to be a villian or explosions. There was no villian in either Curse of the Black Spot or The Girl Who Waited. Well, you can argue that the pirates were villians, but they're not the antagonists, and the handbots might have been antagonists, but they're not villians.

    And I don't really think that there was a villian in Vincent and the Doctor, either. The monster might have been a threat, but it was more of a threat in the sense that a wild animal can be a threat rather than being a villan, and it was a fairly minor subplot anyway (the episode might have been better, or at least as good, without it).
    True, but there does, under the requirements of the bbc, have to be an extraterrestrial threat every episode. Hence the addition of the reapers to Father's Day and the handbots being lethal in GWW.

    In light of the Plot Holes in Cubed, I'm dropping my rating to 7/10

    I know I've been delaying on all that stuff, but here is why the angel's don't work when recurring.

    The Weeping Angels are by far the most threatening monsters in Dr Who. However, lots of plot holes exist in the Blink story. How did the Angels take the TARDIS back to the house without being seen? Why did they not take the TARDIS earlier, before the episode began? How did the Angels manage to avoid looking at each other so long? All this is not noticed because the story goes so fast that you don't care because it is so tense. Now in a recurring threat we know the deal behind the angels, reducing the terror of the unknown. Also, every reappearence, the threat has to be amped up and new details added. For example, in the angels two-parter, River Song and the Crack stole large chunks of time. And during this time we are thinking about the loopholes in the story. Like how come the Angels look at each other a lot in this one? How come eyes shut fools them when it means you are not looking at them? How come no one in Blink turned into an Angel? How come Amy can only open her eyes for a second and then does so for 5? You notice these because the story loses tension and shows the angel's as ridiculously weaksauce. Maybe Manhattan will buck that, I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    True, but there does, under the requirements of the bbc, have to be an extraterrestrial threat every episode. Hence the addition of the reapers to Father's Day and the handbots being lethal in GWW.
    First, do you have a source for that assertion? True, there haven't been any instance of purely mundane threats since 1982, and before that none since very early in the 2nd Doctor's run, but I'm not aware that it's a set policy by the BBC.

    Second, technically neither Silurians nor gangers are extraterrestrial. And maybe not the Silence, either, but that's not quite clear. And that's just limiting it to threats faced by the 11th Doctor. But if your assertion is true, I guess all 3 and other, earlier examples, might be close enough.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    First, do you have a source for that assertion? True, there haven't been any instance of purely mundane threats since 1982, and before that none since very early in the 2nd Doctor's run, but I'm not aware that it's a set policy by the BBC.

    Second, technically neither Silurians nor gangers are extraterrestrial. And maybe not the Silence, either, but that's not quite clear. And that's just limiting it to threats faced by the 11th Doctor. But if your assertion is true, I guess all 3 and other, earlier examples, might be close enough.
    You make a good point about the Silurians being terrestrial. I was sorry that the dinosaurs in space episode didn't have any actual Silurians in it.

    I too would like to see the source of the claim that the BBC requires an extraterrestrial threat in every episode. I mean I can believe it, but I'd still like to see some evidence.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by CelestialStick View Post
    You make a good point about the Silurians being terrestrial. I was sorry that the dinosaurs in space episode didn't have any actual Silurians in it.

    I too would like to see the source of the claim that the BBC requires an extraterrestrial threat in every episode. I mean I can believe it, but I'd still like to see some evidence.
    It was like all my sources, in DWM. And mistake, not "extraterrestrial threat" the word was "monster". Every Dr Who ep must have a "monster".

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