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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    It was only at the beginning of the episode where it was only 1938 he couldn't visit. He said quite clearly that after the paradox he couldn't visit New York *at all* due to all the time disturbances. Although one wonders why he can't just go to a nearby town and take the train...

  2. - Top - End - #602
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    Not to mention the distinct lack of interest generated by the fracking statue of liberty getting up and walking off. I mean, I know reputedly New Yorkers are supposed to have seen everything and not be phased by it, but I think, especially in 1938, that might just be a little bit worthy of notice, yes?

    I mean, when Ghostbusters did it, it was a major plot point. Here, it's more or less incidental. Like they said "let's have the statue of liberty as an Angel, that's so cool!", but then couldn't think of anything to do with it.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-09-29 at 02:44 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soepvork View Post
    River Melody did the same to cure him, so why not :)
    True that. Good point. I had somehow managed to forget that.

    Also, we understand that 1938 can't be reached by the Tardis, what is to stop the Doctor from going to 1939 or any other later year to see the Ponds?
    I'd say "he can't screw with his own timeline"...except we know he can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devmaar View Post
    When the one angel had River by the wrist she kept looking away from it, and then the Dr showed up and they just looked at each other but the angel just sat there and waited patiently for her to get away
    To be perfectly fair, she said something along the lines of "I'm surprised it hasn't sent me back in time" to which the Doctor replied that it was too weak to do it. Still, there could be other ways to hurt her, if it really wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    It was only at the beginning of the episode where it was only 1938 he couldn't visit. He said quite clearly that after the paradox he couldn't visit New York *at all* due to all the time disturbances. Although one wonders why he can't just go to a nearby town and take the train...
    Are you telling me they aren't going to make another episod set in New York ever? Because I'll believe it when I see it.


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  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Review!

    Angels take Manhattan

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    When I wrote that little piece on the angels I was not expecting film-noir New York. I was expecting more modern day and them attacking everyone. I am glad they went this direction. Damn you Scary Angels.

    River Song: Tolerable this time. Reminds me of the old Season 4 River before it went craaazy. Although, I do think River should only get one more time in the TARDIS (maybe two if she appears at the end of an episode and it segways into the next, I'm thinking 7.12/7.13 here finale stuff). Then take her to the singing towers before we get tired again.

    Amy and Rory's departure. Very fitting. Perhaps Amy's most self-less act she has ever done. Maybe the only one (I dare you people to find other self-less acts) Although see below.

    That scene at the end explains the inconsistency in 11th Hour. Well done. Hopefully we'll get the answer to the burning question of how the TARDIS BLEW UP AND WHY! (I'm sure we'll get it in 2013)


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    Amy and Rory's divorce. Not mentioned in these 4 episodes. Never will be. Big Lipped Alligator Moment. Wasted TIME FROM A GREAT DALEK EPISODE. I am bumping my Asylum Review down to 8, maybe 7.

    A regular criticism of Amy and Rory is that they are considered heartless parents, unfased as they were by the fate of young River. Karen Gillan in an interview said that there was a piece of information we did not know that would put an end to such criticism that would be revealed. WHERE IS IT!!

    Why did the Mob boss keep the Angel locked up? Was that explained. Although I'm sure he was just like Vanstatten.

    Liberty Angel First 5 seconds of vid

    I'm sure there were several times when no one was looking at an angel and it stayed (liberty angel, shackled angel, final angel)

    Why write that damned book? Whenever the book is read, the point becomes fixed. If the book had not been written the doctor would not have read it when Rory was getting the coffee and the angel would not have taken him. So much could have been avoided if the book had not been written.

    In fact, i'm sure that cherub in modern day could not have caught rory, someone would have noticed it peel off the fountain.

    If the past cannot change in this story, how come the Doctor was able to mess around with Kazran so much in Christmas Carol. Or both times River jumped into the TARDIS. Same thing no.

    The Ponds departure could all have been avoided if Rory hadn't rolled last on initiative and looked at the stone. then again curlers
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    Donna also rolled last and touched the hand
    so I don't mind. Then again the two things reminded me of each other.

    I also didn't really feel anything for the departure.

    Edit: if the Doctor can't visit New York, how come he got in to look at the afterword. Maybe he parked the TARDIS outside and walked in.





    8/10. A good standalone, as many of my complaints are meta.
    Last edited by Sunken Valley; 2012-09-29 at 03:05 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Ok, this is hilariously meta:

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    There was power cut when this episode was still being recorded on my TV, it happened near the end of it airing so as a result my viewing of this episode actually had a missing page.
    Last edited by Jahkaivah; 2012-09-29 at 04:30 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    I don't normally post here, since I don't normally feel the need to discuss Dr. Who, but am I the only one who hated this episode? Like "disavow all knowledge of it's existance and pretend it never happened" hate?

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    Don't get me wrong, it had some good moments, but still, what a horrible way to get rid of Amy and Rory. I don't feel sad, or even angry, just disappointed that they got such a lame ending.

    The weeping angels should have been kept as a one-shot baddy, since they just aren't scary any more. And what was the point of the Statue of Liberty angel again?

    Boring episode, terrible ending. I choose to pretend this episode never happened. Amy and Rory are still back at home. The Doctor visits them frequently, but they don't go on adventures anymore. Bland, but happy, ending.
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  7. - Top - End - #607
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
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    Amy and Rory's departure. Very fitting. Perhaps Amy's most self-less act she has ever done. Maybe the only one (I dare you people to find other self-less acts).
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    "The Girl Who Waited". Older Amy, but still, it's the same person. Giving up her life, just when it looked like she could finally break free of that horrible place, so that Rory could be slightly better off, with a same-age Amy by his side? That was hardcore selfless.

    And you know what made it even more powerful? It was sacrifice without martyrdom. I mean, she didn't humble herself, gaining at least the self-gratification of feeling like a Saint and a Martyr. She went willingly, but not meekly. "If you open that door, I'll get in", she said - and still she stayed behind, and concluded "so DON'T open that door".

    Goddamn.

    P.S. "The Girl Who Waited" is one of my favorite episodes, so I may be biased. :)


    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
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    That scene at the end explains the inconsistency in 11th Hour. Well done.
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    Which scene explained what, now? Something about 7-year-old Amy, I assume, but what exactly?
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  8. - Top - End - #608
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    Not a fan of the huge plot holes -- there had to be other ways to visit even if he couldn't bring them back (somtheing I am not totally sure on anyway) -- obvisouly River gets around this restriction to get the book to Amy. So, that was unpleasent. Still, I admit I cried through the last angle scene and afteward. Overall, another good Mofit episode, even if it was not worthy of the end of the Ponds. (But then, I have always loved Rory.)
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  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Tough call on this one. Normal reflex is Sunken Valley is always wrong :) but that's lazy.

    Kingston wasn't as fun as usual, I'm not sure why. Plot-wise didn't have a close viewing, hopefully will improve on getting that. I'll go with it was ok but expect more from Who than this for now.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Well the episode I was dreading is here.

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    Well let it first be said that I am one incredibly biased bugger. The very first Doctor Who related thing I ever saw was the Time and Space specials. And since then, Amy and Rory have been my companions. I've already said, they were one of the 3 fictional romances I haven't actively rooted against. So yeah, I am sad to see them go. I found their relation with the Doctor and each other the most interesting and entertaining in the entire show. Was their run perfect? Of course not, they overdid the Rory dying thing (though I will admit I enjoyed them drawing attention to it this episode R: Then there will be a paradox and I'll come back. A: Are you sure? R: When do I not?) Also they brought up that Amy had the potential to be a genius and then did nothing with it (outside of pushing buttons in the dinosaur episodes which is rather stretching it). And then the random divorce thing, I thought it was pointless originally and it's pointless now. (Also, as an aside Sunken Valley the divorce thing was technically selfless, it was also just stupid, but selfless. I could also make a case for choosing to die during the Dream Lord episode) But I liked them, and the little family they created with the Doctor. I was hoping that they would stay with the Doctor throughout the Silence run. Get a little karma back on Madame Kavarian and the Silence for what they did to them and their child. No such luck though it seems.

    Anyway as to the episode. I like timey-wimey episodes, they're interesting even if they're prone to plot holes. So I enjoyed the jist of the episode, and I don't know why people find the Angels so frightening, I don't think I've ever found them that scary. They can be beaten by a sledgehammer. Oh I think they are interesting, incredibly interesting, but they aren't all that scary. I guess I'm just hard to frighten, since when folks were claiming how the insane Daleks were so scary in episode 1, I was rather "meh" about them, since they all appeared to be broken and useless. Anyway, I thought they were used well, except for the Liberty Angel. And they brought about some fun play between the characters. Watching Amy and Rory contemplate their suicide was an interesting scene, as was Amy's attempt to go live out her life with Rory in the end. (Though anyone notice Amy's 5 years older than Rory? I guess she got sent back a bit further)

    Overall, I thought it was a good episode, one of the better of the on a whole rather disappointing season. I wish my favorites could have gone out with a bang, but you can't always get what you want. And so I guess I'm satisfied with them stuck in NY having adventures (and yes in my mind they will be having adventures)

  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    New episode and Sherlock Season 2 spoiler comment...
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    So, what is it with Moffat and jumping off of buildings?
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  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid View Post
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    "The Girl Who Waited". Older Amy, but still, it's the same person. Giving up her life, just when it looked like she could finally break free of that horrible place, so that Rory could be slightly better off, with a same-age Amy by his side? That was hardcore selfless.

    And you know what made it even more powerful? It was sacrifice without martyrdom. I mean, she didn't humble herself, gaining at least the self-gratification of feeling like a Saint and a Martyr. She went willingly, but not meekly. "If you open that door, I'll get in", she said - and still she stayed behind, and concluded "so DON'T open that door".

    Goddamn.

    P.S. "The Girl Who Waited" is one of my favorite episodes, so I may be biased. :)



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    Which scene explained what, now? Something about 7-year-old Amy, I assume, but what exactly?
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    Older Amy don't count. She was an alternate Amy with 36 years that the other Amy did not have (in the same fashion, 5:02 Secret Agent Pond is also not real Amy, but Series 5 and Series 6 Amy are the same person). Plus, she didn't sacrifice anything as all she did was make sure she didn't exist. She should not have existed and she chose not to. Any other outcome would make her horribly selfish, which she was. At least Karen was a good actress in that one. But it's an idiot plot that could be resolved in minutes.

    On the other hand
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    Amy's Choice, killing herself to be with Rory. Maybe that was self-less, making this her 2nd selfless act. Not sure because it was suicide and all


    Inconsistent scene: at the end of 11th hour (Season 5, Episode 1). We see Young Amy on her suitcase waiting. It is the morning and she has waited all night. Then we hear the TARDIS sound and she looks up with excitement. We immediately cut to Gillan's Amy being woken at night by the same sound. The scene is never explained (and Doctor Who rarely has dream sequences). Now it has. Although, this would change a lot of things, as Amy was always a bit cross about having to wait her decade for the Doctor, and apparently, she would not have had to as the Doctor explained to her. So basically, the Doctor still traumatised a kid. On purpose this time.

    Also, this episode condoned double suicide. Discuss.



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  13. - Top - End - #613
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Those eps ruined my childhood! I am however a big Beast Below apologist.

    Yah, who is better than 99% of everything else, so it hurts when it's only better than 80-90% :) I'm fine with leaving things open to interpretation too, but just don't see a way to make the plots of daleks and this work as given.

    I should probably get to that closer viewing before commenting further :)
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    Wasn't everything covered in Big Bang as far as Amelia @ 7? Wasn't aware of anything dangling except how did the Tardis kablooie anyway (I'm fine with that Silence whatever thing from the Lodger, but...). Granted any excuse to show that great scene again too.
    Last edited by LokeyITP; 2012-09-30 at 04:18 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #614
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Diego Havoc View Post
    I don't normally post here, since I don't normally feel the need to discuss Dr. Who, but am I the only one who hated this episode? Like "disavow all knowledge of it's existance and pretend it never happened" hate?

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    Don't get me wrong, it had some good moments, but still, what a horrible way to get rid of Amy and Rory. I don't feel sad, or even angry, just disappointed that they got such a lame ending.

    The weeping angels should have been kept as a one-shot baddy, since they just aren't scary any more. And what was the point of the Statue of Liberty angel again?

    Boring episode, terrible ending. I choose to pretend this episode never happened. Amy and Rory are still back at home. The Doctor visits them frequently, but they don't go on adventures anymore. Bland, but happy, ending.
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    While I'd like to pretend, I'm afraid that would take the fun away from bashing it.

    The angels were poorly used, the whole thing stunk of excuses to get rid of Amy and Rory, what is it with eating the Angels with faults in space time? Did the entire city blink or am I missing something with lady liberty? River didn't have to break her hand, they just had to have that conversation, for goodness sakes Doctor you're a time lord that escaped his own death that had been fixed in just about every way possible, see the loopholes.

    And speaking of loopholes, why does the book have to be 100% accurate? Just tell River she needs to write certain things instead since closed paradoxes seem to be perfectly acceptable.

    There have been so many threats, and through all of them Amy and Rory have come out swinging, having them fail here just felt weak. And a time traveler not being able to visit them when they could have gone anywhere, done anything and he could have met them there (even if the city was locked off) would be simplicity itself. The whole thing just stinks of contrivance.

    All in all companions leaving seems to always be handled poorly. No one can think of a good reason for them to leave so something awful happens. And not that awful things should never happen, but at least make it feel like something that wouldn't be hand waved away with magic on any other episode. The Ponds didn't deserve that. They deserved better.

    And yet somehow I still find myself emotionally invested in this episode. Not because of the train wreck it was, but because I can't think of what the Doctor is going to say to Rory's father.
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  15. - Top - End - #615
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Huh. Good point...

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    is there ever a time when no one is looking at the statue of Liberty?
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Huh. Good point...

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    is there ever a time when no one is looking at the statue of Liberty?
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    Given that 11 specifically says the line "the city that never sleeps", I doubt it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diego Havoc View Post
    I don't normally post here, since I don't normally feel the need to discuss Dr. Who, but am I the only one who hated this episode? Like "disavow all knowledge of it's existance and pretend it never happened" hate?
    This is what bothers me about this episode:

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    The angels are on earth, feeding, growing and doing that by basically torturing people.
    In most other episodes, an alien that dared to do something like that would be forced to flee or usually worse, In this episode the doctor doesn't seem to care.

    Worse - Amy and Rory didn't just go to live in the 60s. If they are caught by the angels, they are constantly going back in time to be used as fuel.
    How does that count as "we had a happy life"?!

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Yeah that too. The Doctor killed the Devil. Why won't he deal with the Angels?
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    This is what bothers me about this episode:

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    The angels are on earth, feeding, growing and doing that by basically torturing people.
    In most other episodes, an alien that dared to do something like that would be forced to flee or usually worse, In this episode the doctor doesn't seem to care.

    Worse - Amy and Rory didn't just go to live in the 60s. If they are caught by the angels, they are constantly going back in time to be used as fuel.
    How does that count as "we had a happy life"?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Yeah that too. The Doctor killed the Devil. Why won't he deal with the Angels?
    In the episode
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    Apparently poisoning the feeding pool would kill all the angels. I do not know why. But that's more or less par for the course when it comes to Doctor Who reasons for how science works. The last one was supposedly "a weak survivor." Now, how I figure this happens, is that the weak last one just sent them both back, but since the building already never existed they just get dropped off in New York. Why the Doctor didn't go Angry Time Lord on that last angel I will never know. We also know that Amy becomes a publisher for River to contact, so she obviously was not stuck in the building her whole life.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2012-09-30 at 07:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Right, I guess that sort of works.

    Now.
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    Since the last, weak survivor just fed on two people, wouldn't it become stronger again? And could it not repopulate the Angel species?
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Right, I guess that sort of works.

    Now.
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    Since the last, weak survivor just fed on two people, wouldn't it become stronger again? And could it not repopulate the Angel species?
    Yeah. Like I said.
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    I have absolutely no idea why the Doctor didn't destroy the last angel. Also I'm not sure if the angels can turn normal preexisting statues into angels? Otherwise once he killed all the angels the Statue of Liberty would disappear. That might cause a stir.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Yeah. Like I said.
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    I have absolutely no idea why the Doctor didn't destroy the last angel. Also I'm not sure if the angels can turn normal preexisting statues into angels? Otherwise once he killed all the angels the Statue of Liberty would disappear. That might cause a stir.
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    Technically if the timeline never happened, the Statue of Liberty was never an Angel in the first place.

    He definitely should have killed the Angel though. I wanted some Fury of the Time Lord there, avenge the Ponds.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Hey, I'm actually caught up to the show and the thread at the same time!

    Episode thoughts: (wow that is a lot of text)
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    I liked the episode more than most people seemed to. Admittedly, I'm being rather forgiving on plot holes because I watched with a bunch of people and terrible speakers, so I figure I might have missed some explanation. I'll need to rewatch it properly.

    Noir detective at the beginning made me happy--although I'm not entirely sure what the point of him was?

    It was definitely more in line with Blink than the two-parter, and I really liked that. For instance, I wasn't bugged by the angels standing around when the characters couldn't see them because that's the way it was in Blink--the angels can't move when we're looking at them, either. I guess we can just assume River kept her eye on the angels while she was breaking her wrist. Although, really, why did she have to break her wrist. The conversation already happened, so that's done. So that whole "my wrist or hers" thing--why can't it be hers?

    The final removal of Amy and Rory was really abrupt. It was like they wanted to have the big win, but then with 5 minutes left in the episode realized "Oh, wait, we have to make the companions leave, too!" Again, I'm being forgiving of plot holes--I'm not sure why the Doctor can't go visit Amy and Rory then, but I'm willing to accept it. And really, the only way he would stop traveling with them is if he couldn't, so of course they had to contrive something so that he can't. At least they kept Amy and Rory together.

    Now that other people are mentioning it, I really don't know why the Doctor didn't destroy that last angel. But compared to his coldness with the gunslinger, I really liked his ball of emotion when the angel stole his Companions.

    Ah, Doctor Who. Where the ending is a beginning.

    I have to say, I love my timey-wimey. It's a time travel show, that's part of the premise and I'm really glad when they don't use it as just a way to get to the next place. They just need to be maybe a little better about continuity when they do it.

    After typing all that, I feel like I've ranted more than raved...but overall, I did like the episode.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
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    The fact that River doesn't seem to be going to the Library any time soon is starting to drive me crazy. Her story is over, it's time to let her go Moffat. I don't care ho much you obsessively love your DMPC, it's time for her to have an actual conclusion

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    I feel like she is getting closer to the Library, though. She's a professor now, like she was in that episode. That seems like a big step closer to me.

  24. - Top - End - #624
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    So I enjoyed the jist of the episode, and I don't know why people find the Angels so frightening, I don't think I've ever found them that scary. They can be beaten by a sledgehammer.
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    In response to the common complaint of 'just take a sledge hammer to them', in 'Flesh and Stone', the Church soldiers were firing at them with automatic weapons at point blank range and didn't kill a single one of them.
    That would indicate either Stormtrooper accuracy of the highest order, or the Angels are bulletproof.

    As 10 said in Blink:

    Quote Originally Posted by 10th Doctor
    They are quantum locked. They don't exist when they're being observed. The moment they are seen by any other living creature they freeze into rock. No choice, it's a fact of their biology. In the sight of any living thing they literally turn to stone, and you cant kill a stone.[/
    This would indicate they become a fixed point in space, thus you can't kill them easily because they're both not there and their 'body' is a permanent fixture in space/time, which your mind interprets as a stone statue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
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    (Though anyone notice Amy's 5 years older than Rory? I guess she got sent back a bit further)
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    I think you meant 'later' (ie he's sent back to 1960, while she's sent back to 1965), but more likely Amy just outlived Rory, spending the last 5 years of her life alone, thus becoming the Girl Who Waited again.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-09-30 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Something tells me there are two timelines for this particular series, the first is from the companions point of view (not quite represented correctly from the actual episode order) of Asylum, DOAS, POT, Mercy, Angels and The Doctor's viewpoint of Angels, Asylum, DOAS, POT, Mercy (Mercy being a standalone portion of the missing 7 weeks because we see Rory losing a phone charger under the bed in one of the scenes) The Doctor is spending more and more time away from them for two reasons, the first is he needs to steel himself for their inevitable loss, the second is the difficulty of acquiring Rory and Amy due to the timey-wimey nature of their demise...
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    I'm skipping over any and all comments to the denigration of the emotinos of Amy and Rory's departure, because I don't think I can properly express a response to them without running into the board filters. Suffice to say I teared up around the time Rory said he was scared and remained so to pretty much the end, and if you imply by any means that the sequence did not deserve the emotions I spent on it... imagine an angry Eleven. Say something from AGMGTW. I feel something like that in response, but with more swearing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    The fact that River doesn't seem to be going to the Library any time soon is starting to drive me crazy. Her story is over, it's time to let her go Moffat. I don't care how much you obsessively love your DMPC, it's time for her to have an actual conclusion
    Her story is quite manifestly not over. She's a significant part of the Doctor's life at this point and that can't all be just left to "Oh, they did stuff offscreen between episodes." Not to mention her story doesn't all happen in the right order - her actual conclusion came in her first appearance, we've since seen the beginning and some of the middle of her story, but it can potentially have a massive amount of middle to it, and dot about in terms of the precise sequence of events. That she's out of prison and a professor now is in fact a step toward the ending, but she might be neither of those the next time we see her. You may not like it, but I on the other hand, while I have a few issues with aspects of River's character, have great respect for the fact that Moffat didn't just blister through River's story in a few short episodes, when he'd built it up to be that much more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberries View Post
    The Doctor can cure people using regeneration powers now? Since when?
    Yeah, that bothered me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soepvork View Post
    River Melody did the same to cure him, so why not :)
    But she was within the first 15 hours of a regeneration cycle at the time, and hence the energy was already on tap, as it were. Granted, there is precedent from the Classic series of Time Lords being able to regenerate at will, rather than having to wait until they're actually dying, but I don't like the idea of the energies being so finely controllable that the Doctor can just randomly siphon off a little to heal a broken wrist without actually inducing a full regeneration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    (I dare you people to find other self-less acts)
    Challenge accepted. I'll get back to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Why write that damned book? Whenever the book is read, the point becomes fixed. If the book had not been written the doctor would not have read it when Rory was getting the coffee and the angel would not have taken him. So much could have been avoided if the book had not been written.
    Except that it had already been written, and River knew it had already been written, because they'd read it. Besides which, why would not writing the book prevent the angel from taking Rory? All it would change is the Doctor and Amy wouldn't know about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    If the past cannot change in this story, how come the Doctor was able to mess around with Kazran so much in Christmas Carol. Or both times River jumped into the TARDIS. Same thing no.
    Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    (Though anyone notice Amy's 5 years older than Rory? I guess she got sent back a bit further)
    Or, as was pointed out to me when I raised that point, she might just have lived longer. Great as Amy and Rory's love was, it wouldn't cause them to automatically die at exactly the same moment, or even in the same year as each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    (in the same fashion, 5:02 Secret Agent Pond is also not real Amy, but Series 5 and Series 6 Amy are the same person).
    Why not? 5:02 Amy had all the same memories as regular Amy (Well, more or less). She was the same person in a different universe. And she may even have retained those memories subsequent to time resolving itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    Also, this episode condoned double suicide. Discuss.
    Fallacy - they knew they wouldn't actually die.
    Also, they were saving others. c.f. Jack in Parting of Ways - He could have run away, but chose to stay there and be killed by the Daleks, to save others. He wasn't the vehicale of his own death, but he still chose to let it happen.
    Or, even better, c.f. Father's Day. I feel the comparison speaks for itself. There is considerable precedent in Who of people (Not least the Doctor himself) laying down their lives for a good cause.


    Overall, my personal summation of the episode shortly after seeing it was "Blink with added emotions." And I stand by it.
    Last edited by Thufir; 2012-09-30 at 10:29 AM.
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    YES. THERE ALWAYS IS."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
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    In response to the common complaint of 'just take a sledge hammer to them', in 'Flesh and Stone', the Church soldiers were firing at them with automatic weapons at point blank range and didn't kill a single one of them.
    That would indicate either Stormtrooper accuracy of the highest order, or the Angels are bulletproof.

    As 10 said in Blink:
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    And yet in this episode we have one who is definitely wounded by cracking its face. I maintain that it might not kill them, but breaking off the angels head/arms/legs would probably do a hell of a lot toward making them useless.

    As to the Amy outlived Rory thing, yeah, that is probably what happened, brain failure there.

    Though now I have the mental image of an 80 year old Amy waiting for Rory to come back to life again, just one more time, once he finally passes.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2012-09-30 at 10:44 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #628
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    All told, I thought it was a pretty good episode. Sometimes I think the fandom for Who is going the Dominic Deegan route, and look only for the opportunity to complain rather than do some actual logical thought on their own part.

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    Why can't the Doctor visit the Ponds? The area between 1938 and 2012 in the New York region has now absorbed a major paradox. It is literally a hair's breadth away from feeding pteranodons in the park. If the Doctor were determined enough, he could find a dozen ways to get back there, just like he could go back and see the Time Lords again, but he doesn't for the same reason: the cost would be too high. If he even popped in to say hello, his slightest action could change when the Ponds die by half an hour, and then Teddy Roosevelt would be delivering a podcast about how Ghengis Khan should not be allowed to obtain nuclear weapons.

    Amy and Rory went out with style, twice on Amy's part. The second one wasn't supposed to have the epic feel to it the first did, however. It was supposed to have a tragic, senseless, and above all final feel to it, and I think that was achieved. The divorce was a stupid and unnecessary element given the rest of the half-season, but it did do one thing: it set up the fact that the relationship is not as one-sided as it seemed and both of them are willing to sacrifice everything they care about for the sake of the other. Amy's side of the equation had not been addressed since Amy's Choice in Season 5. Without it, their bickering on the edge of the rooftop and Amy's final farewell would not have had lost a little power, to my mind.

    And it finally explains the jarring inconsistency in Eleventh Hour. In the season 5 premiere, little Amelia is seen sitting on her suitcase in her back yard, looking hopefully up at the stars when she hears the Tardis noise and happily looks behind her. But we know that the two times the Doctor had been to that night already, that scene couldn't have happened. Elventh Hour Doctor had already left, and Big Bang Doctor didn't arrive by Tardis. Now we know the truth: it was Angels Take Manhattan Doctor, coming to fill little Amelia's head with so many wonderful dreams of the future that would carry her through the hard years of waiting and being told the Raggedy Man didn't exist. Now if we could only get an explanation for the Rory scene in God Complex (where he talks about their travels in the past tense), things would be sewn up nicely.

    River, however, was really the most interesting thing about the episode, and that is because she finally shows a hint about how much her relationship with the Doctor hurts her, how she'll hide all suffering from him because he doesn't like to see it. And the interesting bit, the really interesting bit, is that the Doctor's unwillingness to talk about the Library is hurting her more than sparing her - for him, the worst moment in their relationship was their first. It's there, it's dealt with, and everything that comes after that does so without the guarantee that he'll lose her, because that's already happened. More than that, he still preserved her for all eternity while he was at it, which also softens the blow. And it's torturing her to know that one day, sooner or later, she's going to hurt the Doctor in the worst way she possibly can. Remember River's death scene, the hurt sound in her voice when she realizes that that moment meant that the Doctor always knew how their relationship would end. Had she known he was already at peace with that, it would have spared her so much suffering...

    That said, the Statue of Liberty was a dumb idea. If you're going to take that large hit to the story's credibility, at least do something with it!


    Final remark: Mike McShane! I fanboy over the weirdest things, I know, but seeing one of my favorite Who's Line Is It Anyway cast members again was almost as cool as seeing Ben Browder in Who. Almost.

    Edit:
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    I also have mixed feelings about the Doctor's healing of River's wrist. On one hand, I don't like it because it was unnecessary: The only thing she used that hand for in the rest of the episode was to climb the fire escape. I would have had the Doctor splint it or something to limit the pain, but left it in play because choices should have consequences.

    But that's just it, isn't it? The Doctor doesn't like consequences. He doesn't like to see the people he cares about suffer. He did something extremely stupid, like burn some of his regeneration energy on an injury time alone would heal, because he simply cannot bring himself to leave his wife to suffer. It's that childishness that is the root of River's attitude in this episode - you can't let the Doctor see you suffer, because he'll do anything, no matter how stupid, to try and fix it.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2012-09-30 at 11:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

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    Ending technobabble felt too strained. In my headcanon, the residue of the paradox made any further time travel for the Ponds too risky for the rest of the universe. The Doctor can still stop in and visit, he just can't take them back to their original time, and especially can't adventure with them anymore. Plus, it ties up the normal life vs. doctor life theme much better.

    Angels need to stop gaining new powers all willy-nilly. Whoever picks up the show after Moffat's run needs to retcon them hard. It's like everything has to be as cool as possible right now, when a little subtlety would pay off much better in the long run.

    Actually liked River in this one. Either she or the doctor should've been smart enough to trick out time somewhere, but this is more "I'm your intellectual equal" River than "I'm your intellectual equal, who's also badass action chick who knows more about everything going on than you do" River. I like someone equivalent who can act as his foil.

    As always, the cast has wonderful chemistry. Karen and especially Arthur should be snapped up soon for some high-quality stuff.

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    While I like The Great Hack, it seems too far-reaching. Wiping computer systems and creatures with integrated computers is one thing. Wiping the memories of everybody who isn't a named character is quite another. I'd like to see hints of more people, like Clive from Rose, trying to piece together fragmentary evidence to make sense of things that they know happened.

    And the monsters really need to be toned down. The new Dalek empire needs some handwavium to explain why they're not running around as the universe's unchecked time-traveling superpower, angels need to be stripped back to the tricks they used in Blink, and in general enemy abilities should be clearly delineated. Otherwise, you run into believability problems. Did every postcard of the Statue of Liberty wind up going berserk and turning people into temporal driftwood? Plus, each side developing new powers for no particular reason is something comic books have learned the pitfalls of long ago.
    Last edited by Reluctance; 2012-09-30 at 12:08 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #630
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    Default Re: Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
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    Angels need to stop gaining new powers all willy-nilly. Whoever picks up the show after Moffat's run needs to retcon them hard. It's like everything has to be as cool as possible right now, when a little subtlety would pay off much better in the long run.
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    What new powers? The only thing they really did (Liberty not withstanding) was display a bit more control over their existing time-toss attack.

    What they did here was simple: Throw the prey into the Quay, then herd them to see their own death locking them into a time-loop. Then they could keep throwing them back in time multiple times, milking each person for more and more time energy (is that the same Artron energy?) in a controlled environment. Where Angels could stop in for a snack whenever they liked.

    The Doctor said it best: Winter Quay is a farm. An extremely clever way to accumulate and preserve food in a safe, accessible, and controlled manner. Seriously, all they did was use their abilities more cleverly than they have previously.

    And what did they do in Flesh and Stone/Time of Angels? One of them killed a target in order to obtain a method of communication, and it took him three separate tries before he figured out how to get something usable. He didn't use his traditional attack because he needed the corpse more than he needed food. I'll grant that the "image of an Angel is an Angel" aspect was new, but it struck me as a logical conclusion: if "evolution" produced them, that must mean they can propagate in some way, and the classical method probably isn't going to work in their case. That new trick explains a lot and only serves to make them more dangerous, but it isn't out of left field. It's just a logical extension of their previously defined nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reluctance View Post
    More general thoughts:
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    While I like The Great Hack, it seems too far-reaching. Wiping computer systems and creatures with integrated computers is one thing. Wiping the memories of everybody who isn't a named character is quite another. I'd like to see hints of more people, like Clive from Rose, trying to piece together fragmentary evidence to make sense of things that they know happened.

    And the monsters really need to be toned down. The new Dalek empire needs some handwavium to explain why they're not running around as the universe's unchecked time-traveling superpower, angels need to be stripped back to the tricks they used in Blink, and in general enemy abilities should be clearly delineated. Otherwise, you run into believability problems. Did every postcard of the Statue of Liberty wind up going berserk and turning people into temporal driftwood? Plus, each side developing new powers for no particular reason is something comic books have learned the pitfalls of long ago.
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    I'm not sure why you'd think the peoples minds have been wiped. Even in Dinosaurs on a Spaceship, where the big bad's database had already been wiped of all mention of him... people still knew of him, he only got involved because he was called in by the local authorities, and Riddel certainly remembered him. Then there was Kate Stewart in the Power of 3 episode, who was very well aware of the Doctor.

    Actually, I can just imagine River's pardon review after the Crash of the Byzantium:
    Official: Bishop Octavian (who obviously didn't die because the Angels never existed) says you did a fine job on securing the Byzantium (which still crashed for some reason - call it temporal inertia).
    River: Does this mean I've earned my pardon?
    Official: No. This was a minor assignment (now that the Angels never existed). You still killed the Doctor.
    River: Doctor Who?
    Official: Pardon?
    River: There's no such person. I can't have killed someone who doesn't exist.
    Official: It says right here in your file...
    River: Files can be wrong. Check your databases. There is no Doctor.
    Official: Um... well... this is most irregular...
    River: Story of my life, believe me. Now, about that pardon...
    He would have to be very careful of how heavily he edited himself. Too much and too many things would go south. Demon's Run still had to occur. He had to retain reputation enough to pull off the standoff with the Vashta Nerada. What he could do was limit it, reduce the aftershocks of his actions so that fewer third parties knew about him.

    As for the monsters, I've already said my peace on the Angels, but I agree on the Daleks. Sure, they might have been whipped up into a frenzy by their memories of the Doctor, but they have been omnicidal space nazis from the beginning and Oswin's Edit didn't alter their technological advancement, aggression, or military might. Not that we know of, anyway. All it did was remove the sense of panicked "the Predator will come..." urgency to their conquests. Of course, I strongly suspect a fair bit of future storytelling will involve the consequences of the Doctor's retreat from the universe. And that includes Oswin's Edit.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2012-09-30 at 12:41 PM.
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