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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Post Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    So is magic sword the name?
    Extended Signature here.

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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilpich View Post
    So is magic sword the name?
    Yup. I think it has a nice ring to it.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Is the goal to faithfully reproduce 4e as a basis for legal 3rd party support, or is it to make a distinct game based on the 4e mechanics?

    I don't believe those goals are compatible.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I like most of your design goals, but it seems to me that the execution is 90% of making a game.

    I wait with bated breath.
    Last edited by Vitruviansquid; 2012-06-04 at 01:15 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Is the goal to faithfully reproduce 4e as a basis for legal 3rd party support, or is it to make a distinct game based on the 4e mechanics?

    I don't believe those goals are compatible.
    The goal is to create a better Fourth Edition that is usable by third party publishers, with a new implied setting to fill the gap left by the old one. By introducing changes, we will make it fell more like the original, since the new things we create will fill the void left by the things we would not be legally allowed to replicate.

    So - in short - neither. If you want to know more, read the top and bottom and the google doc.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Just to let you know, I am still interested in helping out with this. Do you have any ideas at all for classes/powers yet? If not, we should probably start working on that, since you can't really have a new 4e without classes not can you?

    Also, since I am a Necromancy expert, I'd love to tackle the Necromancy wizard school. Unlike the Wizards version of the 4e Necromancer, which is a sup-par blaster, I was thinking of borrowing a bit from the "shadow done right" homebrew AND the 4e cleric undead animating powers. My idea was basically to combined the two, in a sense. Basically, the Necro specialist wizard would be a minionmaster-lite, having a handful of powers with the Minion keyword that could be used through undead minions the necro wizard summons. Unlike the shadow done right Necromancer, who just summons minions, I would make the wizard able to actually animate fallen foes. The Neco wizard's "animate dead" power could either animate fallen minions as skeletons that do not retain their powers in life, and could animate up to four of them, OR animate a single dead non-minion enemy as a zombie in a manner basically identical to servitude in death.

    This allows the Necromancer to choose whether he wants a small squad of 1 HP skeleton minions or one rather nasty "brute" undead, which I think would be neat. Likewise, if the power being that flexible is too "OP" then you could make it two build options. A necro wizard could choose between "Animate dead" which creates skeleton minions or "Create Undead" which summons a single undead monstrosity. Likewise, the Necromancer could get both, but at different levels.

    The "Minion" keyword need not be exclusive to wizards either. I can see a "tyrant/overlord" type warlord/martial build that is able to summon living minions that could also have some minion keyword powers as well.

    However, if you don't like the "minion" idea as an add-on for the wizard, I could easily see it on a "Dread Necromancer" type class.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-06-04 at 05:47 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I have begun to work on the adventure. You can find what I have so far Here.

    Please tell me what you think.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Seems interesting thus far. Though we should probably get the game finished before we work on fleshing out the adventure. Or we can do both at the same time. Whatever you think would be best. Either way, it looks like an interesting run to go through.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    We shall now buckle down and work on the classes. To start, we shall have a brainstorming session. The subject: the Cleric!

    How should Domains work?

    What should the starting Domains be?

    What should the Cleric's advancement be like?

    What kind of powers should the Cleric get?

    What should we use as a base when building the Cleric?

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Domains should be more about giving them a unique feel and less about simply expanding their spell selection. A cleric of two different gods should simply play differently. Or well different domains.a clerics domains should signify which parts of his deities portfolio they choose to emulate. For instance a cleric with the undeath domain should be more focused on that theme then on healing. I think we should provide more support for the domains and less for the general side. This way you have a couple universal powers and spells but much more powers and spells that fit for his domain/s.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    Domains should be more about giving them a unique feel and less about simply expanding their spell selection. A cleric of two different gods should simply play differently. Or well different domains.a clerics domains should signify which parts of his deities portfolio they choose to emulate. For instance a cleric with the undeath domain should be more focused on that theme then on healing. I think we should provide more support for the domains and less for the general side. This way you have a couple universal powers and spells but much more powers and spells that fit for his domain/s.
    Agreed. Before we start designing domain powers, we should build a Cleric progression structure.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Yeah. Also, a fun thing to do would be to have some of the cleric domains focus on different ability scores that fit within their theme. For example, a cleric with the magic domain may be wis and int-based instead of wis and cha/con-based. Also, while it may be something a tad odd, if you REALLY want to make domains feel different you COULD have some change the cleric's attack stat and use wis as the secondary. Death, in particular, seems like it could be made cha-primary, wis-secondary due to cha's association with necromancy. As for power advancement, I think that dividing domains into tiers that one reaches by advancement would be good.

    Also, while clerics traditionally have been undead animators, the wizard, being a controller, seems more suited to the "minion-master" roll then the cleric. So, my solution? I was thinking that both the wizard and cleric could play with permanent undead, but in a different way. The wizard, being a controller who wants to gum up combat with pets, would be able to summon a small squad of undead minions(Literally...as in 1HP minions). The death cleric, however, would instead get one undead companion, and play almost like a 4e shaman, using powers through their one minion, much like the necro wizard could use powers through his small squad of undead mooks. You could even fully embrace the shaman route and have the cleric's minion be fluffed as more along the "ghost/spirit" line of undead rather then the "skeleton/zombie" one.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-06-04 at 06:42 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I was thinking spell school specializations would work for wizards similarly to domains for clerics, defining automatic powers, and improving powers from their school.

    As far as Necromancer wizards go, yeah, I thought a minion squad would be a good idea, not dissimilar from the power I used for my Necromancer subclass.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Yeah, but what about the singular, shaman-esc undead companion for death clerics? Do you think that would be a neat angle for them?
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-06-04 at 06:59 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I like it, though it does set the bar kind of high for other domains.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Wisdom will always be the primary statistic for Clerics, but each domain will have an associated secondary statistic.

    The Death and Undeath domains will be separate. Death will have nothing to do with undead minions (and will be potentially good or neutral), while Undeath will be all about summoning evil spirits.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I see. In that case, the singular spirit minion idea could still work well for undeath, unless you had "spirit summoning" simply being normal powers fluffed as spirits doing stuff to allies and enemies.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-06-04 at 07:24 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    The doc has just received major updates. I have simultaneously started to build the system and the Cleric class.

    Please tell me what you think.
    Last edited by Chainsaw Hobbit; 2012-06-04 at 07:24 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Would make the second defense bonus defined by the Domain. It's minor, but adds a nice touch of differentiation.

    Would have Domain perhaps grant or pre-select a skill.

    Perhaps have other parameter of the class like surges/HP also modified by Domain.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    It looks good so far. Seems good. I see that you are using 3.5e's armor system rather then 4e's. Anyway, I like class-based stat bonuses, and think that since we have them it may be wise to do away with racial stat bonuses. Mainly because if a cleric stacked a +wis race with their class they could achieve over 20 wisdom at level 1, which is somewhat troublesome OP wise, as it would entice people to only play + wis races on a cleric even more then standard 4e does. However, taking away racial ability score bonuses entirely eliminates this issue entirely, and makes this the only system in which any race can play any class as well as any other race. You would have total racial versatility.

    Also, you mentioned "robed cultists" as a character type that could be a cleric, yet the cleric has no mechanical reason to wear robes. Perhaps certain domains should alter your proficiencies as well? Undeath seems like a good "cultist" domain and I could see it being restricted to robes and using Int as a secondary to make up for the lack of armor. Likewise, a "battle/war" type domain could give you heavy armor proficiency, and perhaps even a single martial weapon.
    Last edited by Giegue; 2012-06-04 at 07:50 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Chainsaw Hobbit View Post
    Wisdom will always be the primary statistic for Clerics, but each domain will have an associated secondary statistic.

    The Death and Undeath domains will be separate. Death will have nothing to do with undead minions (and will be potentially good or neutral), while Undeath will be all about summoning evil spirits.
    I'm not sure this is such a good idea. It seems like it could be hard to differentiate them, and I think it would be prudent to keep the total number of domains low (maybe only 5, one for each secondary stat).

    In keeping with the design goal of having clerics fight better against enemies opposed to their deity's principals, each domain could have a list of anathema, specific monsters that a cleric of that domain would get bonuses when fighting. Iconic and powerful anathema (like liches for a hypothetical light domain) might even give clerics access to powers custom-tailored against them, or clerics could be able to ignore or negate some of their iconic abilities.

    I don't think that non-monsters that violate a deities principals should give access to the same kind of bonuses or abilities, however.

    Possible domains:
    Death
    Undead
    War
    Storm
    Light
    Sea
    Harvest
    Trickster (oh god so much fun)
    Knowledge
    Lordship
    Birth/rebirth (could be lumped in with death, for maiden-mother-crone type deities)


    Also, idea for potential druid class. I really love the primal classes and the idea of primal spirits in opposition to the gods, but I don't want them to be too happy nature hippie-y. I think the druid should be mysterious, sinister, and ominous, but not necessarily evil. They would deal not only in animals and nature spirits, but in blood magic, dark magic, wild magic, the ancient magics from before the first wizard set about trying to tame magic to her own ends, the bones of dead gods, and lore passed down from master to pupil over generations. I also like the idea, proposed in I think it was Primal Power, that if a good druid meets an evil druid, the first thing they do is talk about their gardens. It's not that they like eachother, or that they won't try to kill eachother afterwards, but being a druid comes first, and you do not ignore the ceremonies and rituals.

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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Perhaps races won't give ability score bonuses. Instead, each one could give a choice of at least two Encounter Utility Powers at levels 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26, as well as a couple of skill bonuses and defence bonuses. This would make them more flexible, and would make them matter more at higher levels.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    my first 2 comments are:

    there is only one core defender and controller class each, while striker and support both have multiple classes

    The setting needs one cliche of fantasy which dictates the entire setting, but this cliche is used as what we are supposed to expect, and what is not actually there. Faerun is cliche fantasy, and eberron turns the cliches so far that it goes full circle. What i would suggest is a setting inside a dyson sphere without day/night that is also constructed of floating chunks of worldScrew that: Ravnica, City of guilds. World City. The Guildpact BEST SETTING EVER
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-06-04 at 10:11 PM.


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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Reading over the google doc now. I have to ask-Why fewer powers? I see the same thing came up in the comments on the doc, so I'm not the only one who thinks it's off. At high level play one of the most annoying things was how you had to trade out your powers instead of just getting new ones.

    I am also not sure I like the idea of reducing hit points and healing surges. Maybe reducing them at low levels for the grittier higher lethality deal, but high level characters should be able to keep on trucking.


    Also I notice you are planning on using the Advantage mechanic from 5e. If I might make a suggestion: Having one source of Advantage gets you +2 to the roll, having two sources of advantage lets you choose whether you want +2 on the roll or to roll the extra d20.

    I suggest this because the advantage die is usually worth more than the +2 to hit (it averages around +3 overall, and peaks as high as +5), so this gives some degree of granularity. It also makes it so having one source of advantage doesn't make you instantly stop looking for opportunities like flanking. Allowing the choice means in those rare situations (generally where you need a 19-20 to hit) where it's better you can opt for the +2.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Things that I think should be carried over from non-Fourth Edition games:
    • Like in Fifth Edition, Combat Advantage will allow the attacker to roll twice, instead of giving a +2 bonus. I think this makes it matter more.
    • Like in Fifth Edition, there will be three types of armour. Light will allow full dex bonus to AC. Medium will allow half dex bonus. Heavy will allow no dex bonus.
    • Perhaps CMB and CMD from Pathfinder should be used?

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Sorry, I've been busy. Here's a goblin, drow,elf, and half-elf....

    Spoiler
    Show
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is the thief who likes to hoard,
    That loves the bard with the puppet Lord
    That admires the fighter with the green-hilted sword,
    That employs the Wizard, whose bird is ignored,
    That has the gender unexplored
    That intrigues the Halfling, usually bored,
    That slew a mountain of the goblin horde,
    That follows the cleric,
    That serves the lich,
    That seeks the gate,
    That guards the snarl,
    That lives in the prison the gods built.


    guess what I was gone but now I'm back

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elf Bard View Post
    Sorry, I've been busy. Here's a goblin, drow,elf, and half-elf....

    Spoiler
    Show
    Can you do bodies and scenery?

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    I can do bodies. Scenery, not so much.
    Spoiler
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    This is the thief who likes to hoard,
    That loves the bard with the puppet Lord
    That admires the fighter with the green-hilted sword,
    That employs the Wizard, whose bird is ignored,
    That has the gender unexplored
    That intrigues the Halfling, usually bored,
    That slew a mountain of the goblin horde,
    That follows the cleric,
    That serves the lich,
    That seeks the gate,
    That guards the snarl,
    That lives in the prison the gods built.


    guess what I was gone but now I'm back

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Fourth Edition Retro Clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Elf Bard View Post
    I can do bodies. Scenery, not so much.
    Then it would probably be best if you were to help by drawing characters. When you have time, I would appreciate it if you were to draw one of the pre-gens from the starting adventure ...

    A nephillim wizard in his forties with an unkempt goatee and long, wild hair. He is wearing tattered grey robes, embroidered with runes and covered in pockets. With one hand he is clutching a well-worn tome of spells, and with the other he is casting a spell. Blue arcane energy bleeds from his fingertips, the tome, and his wild eyes.

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