Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[Daemonhawk]

I personally think 5th looks fanatastical. I love the inclusion of non-Vancian spellcasters, since I hate spells-per-day.

The Fighter is a real treat, no longer a stupid sack of "Hit big things with big things."

I don't really like using PayPal, because a friend's account got drained... I'd really just prefer something else. But, if push comes to shove, no pay is an option.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I personally think 5th looks fanatastical. I love the inclusion of non-Vancian spellcasters, since I hate spells-per-day.

The Fighter is a real treat, no longer a stupid sack of "Hit big things with big things."

I don't really like using PayPal, because a friend's account got drained... I'd really just prefer something else. But, if push comes to shove, no pay is an option.

Fifth Edition makes me very happy. Perhaps we can kill it and take its stuff.

PayPal would be ideal, but there are compensation options other than cash. If the funding is successful, I will send you a hard copy of the core book, provided you live somewhere where the shipping costs are reasonable. (Otherwise, I might ask you to help pay.)

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I have finished the second playest character: a dwarf fighter.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...d.colcz3ao7iqm

She is very much a "tank", with great defence and short-range control, but modest damage output.

[Daemonhawk]

Good work.

I really hope we get the playtest done ASAP, so we can get on with the Kickstarter. I'm devoting my every moment on the computer to writing this adventure, and it's a lot of fun. I hope everybody is doing well, and let's try to churn this thing out.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Good work.

I really hope we get the playtest done ASAP, so we can get on with the Kickstarter. I'm devoting my every moment on the computer to writing this adventure, and it's a lot of fun. I hope everybody is doing well, and let's try to churn this thing out.

I think we can have it done in a month, if we all work hard.

[elpollo]

Maybe 4,000. If we do 5,000, we need more publicity. But that's just me.

$5,000USD is a reasonable amount. I would recommend having this get more publicity, though.

4-6K, but invest it into a consistent method of revenue.

Out of interest, where are these numbers coming from? It seems the first person picked $5,000 more or less out of the air, so I'm wondering why people think the need to go up or down by $1,000.

This is most likely a VERY stupid question, but what is the money for, anyways?

This is a fantastic question, and one I've been wondering. It's all very well saying the money is to make the product better, to pay for editors and artists and such, but do you know how much that is going to cost? Do you know how much it costs an artist to do a professional quality image? Do you know how many of such images you want in the game? Do you know how much it costs to hire an editor for a several hundred page project? Do you know how much it costs to print on demand? Do you know how much it costs to get a reasonably secure and high quality website put up? Do you know how much the existing team is going to be paid? (No, I don't know any of these either.) These seem like the sorts of questions that should be being asked if you're trying to decide on a figure to ask for, but I can't see anyone really asking or answering them (which makes it all the more baffling that people are suggesting tweaks to the amount).

[TheWombatOfDoom]

This is a fantastic question, and one I've been wondering. It's all very well saying the money is to make the product better, to pay for editors and artists and such, but do you know how much that is going to cost? Do you know how much it costs an artist to do a professional quality image? Do you know how many of such images you want in the game? Do you know how much it costs to hire an editor for a several hundred page project? Do you know how much it costs to print on demand? Do you know how much it costs to get a reasonably secure and high quality website put up? Do you know how much the existing team is going to be paid? (No, I don't know any of these either.) These seem like the sorts of questions that should be being asked if you're trying to decide on a figure to ask for, but I can't see anyone really asking or answering them (which makes it all the more baffling that people are suggesting tweaks to the amount).

In terms of artwork, one thing to think about is: How many pages of art do you need for the book, and in what layout. As in, how many full page artworks, or partial page, and numbers of each. As a professional artist myself, there's two ways of doing things for payment. Typically for a project like this, a royalty system is used, which means out of the profits, the artist continues to make a small percentage based on the sales of the book. The other is buying the image outright, making it the purchaser's property, which is generally the more expensive option. Either way, that's one of the reasons I have been slow in my art work for here. As a starving artist (literally) any actual commission I'm getting paid for takes precedence, and I've been fortunate enough to have been getting a few constants. If I were getting paid, I'd be showing this quite a bit more attention. To give you an idea of current industry rates for children’s picture books (based on a 32pg book) estimates range from $3,000 – $12,000, plus royalties. To break it down another way, if you estimate that an illustrator is creating 20 original illustrations for your book and you are paying them $3,000 for art that is $150 per illustration. Now consider how much time goes into each illustration, starting with thumbnail sketches, revisions, pencil outlines and final color. Oh and don’t forget the cost of supplies, along with the artist’s time.

As for editing, I'm not sure pricing, but here's a link to a site that breaks down some pricing to give you an idea. Generally editors are paid 25% to 30% upfront BEFORE doing the work.

For publishing, were you looking at self publishing or going through a company? Are you planning on printing the book or soley putting it online? Generally when printing physical copies, the more you print the cheaper it is to print. If you plan on printing copies, are you looking at turning the book into a product?

All these are basic things to think about when creating this.

[Gligarman2]

Fifth edition is not really my cup of tea. 3E is probably my favorite. Also, DarkElfBard, we have the company name of Madcap Games. (I came up with it! Mr. Akins liked it.)

Elpollo and Wombat, perhaps you guys may be overthinking this a bit. I know how important it is to have a business plan, but this is a first project. It will be cool, but we can always improve. There is nothing saying we need to solve each problem in one post.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I wasn't suggesting you should. More along the lines of things to keep in mind in terms of pricing. One thing that I'm not sure how much will come into place is copyright and such, such as your own copyright, and the terms that may accidentally be infringing the copyright of another system. Either way, just throwing that info into the conversation, mainly to be helpful and have it be something to think about along the way. You don't and shouldn't have all the answers presently. You're still in the creation stage!

But deciding if you're selling you product or giving it away is one thing I was curious about.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Some freelancers are willing to work for as low as $120 per image. I have a (professional quality) fried who could work for $25-50 per image.

Writers tend to work for about two cents a word.

I'm not yet sure about editors.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Indeed, I work for quite a lot less than I stated. That's the average price that I found in researching prices. Good to have professional friends, however!

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Indeed, I work for quite a lot less than I stated. That's the average price that I found in researching prices. Good to have professional friends, however!

Could you work for maybe $50 a drawing, with no royalties?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

12,000 views! Who are these people?

[Gligarman2]

Could you work for maybe $50 a drawing, with no royalties?

I'd work for $70 an image with royalties and proper credit, when we gain a steady source of money. I'm willing to negotiate, Mr. Akins.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I'd work for $70 an image with royalties and proper credit, when we gain a steady source of money. I'm willing to negotiate, Mr. Akins.

Sounds fair.

[Gligarman2]

Cool! So, I was thinking that the Occultist would have magical energy channeled through the scimitar to his hand, where it would be unleashed as a giant stream of fire coming towards the viewer. Is this OK?

Also, what should he be wearing? You never specify.

[elpollo]

I'd work for $70 an image with royalties and proper credit, when we gain a steady source of money. I'm willing to negotiate, Mr. Akins.

Sounds fair.

As an uninvolved outside observer, I must ask: are you kidding? If you tell me that you cannot see a difference in quality between this and this, this and this, or this and this... well, you're lying. There is a time and place for encouraging the endeavours of others - whilst you are trying to market a potential product is not it. If you are charging people for art then you damn sure better get artists who will deliver what people are paying for.

I apologise to Gligarman2 if I come off as harsh, but you need a reality check - the art you posted back on page 19 is not worth $70 per image, and shouldn't even be in a professionally produced product at all. The art in an RPG is one of the first things people will see as they flick through, and will often be what draws people in to see more, or what makes them close the book and leave it alone. If you are paying for an artist, choose one of the many professionals out there who will provide you with an evocative, inspiring, and high quality picture - it makes for a better product, it reflects better on you as a team, and most importantly it sells more copies.

[Gligarman2]

I know that I can't draw. I know that my art is no where near professional quality. However, I am determined. I try to improve each time a make a drawing. This is an independant project, and I will work for free if necessary. Each time I draw, I ask for revisions. I am always ready to improve. In summary, I am not a professional artist. I am the avatar of the will of the creator of the project, the direct conduit of imagination!

[Zelkon]

5th edition is my least favorite out of all editions, BECMI and ODND included.
Also, I personalty think not enough is being done to modify 4e to justify buying the product from what I've seen. You can't just fix what people said they wanted fixed, you've got to add more. See pathfinder, they fixed a bunch of stuff than added interesting stuff like alchemy. I'm not a huge fan of the game still, but it sure made it more appealing compared the 3.5.

NO ONE BUT CHAINSAW SHOULD READ THE FOLLOWING.

Spoiler

Show

I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to be brutally honest: I'm not seeing a very professional touch in the artwork. It looks very flat. I'm not sure if these are just drafts, but you can clearly see they are done just through a painting program. Again, I mean no offence.

EDIT: Ah, it appears my spoiler has been ninjaed.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Cool! So, I was thinking that the Occultist would have magical energy channeled through the scimitar to his hand, where it would be unleashed as a giant stream of fire coming towards the viewer. Is this OK?

Also, what should he be wearing? You never specify.

He should probably wear leather.

Fire wouldn't really be the character's thing. Maybe coiling thorns or charm magic.

I know that I can't draw. I know that my art is no where near professional quality. However, I am determined. I try to improve each time a make a drawing. This is an independant project, and I will work for free if necessary. Each time I draw, I ask for revisions. I am always ready to improve. In summary, I am not a professional artist. I am the avatar of the will of the creator of the project, the direct conduit of imagination!

I understand all of this. I can feel your enthusiasm. I admire your devotion to the project, and from what I know of you, I like you as a person.

5th edition is my least favorite out of all editions, BECMI and ODND included.
Also, I personalty think not enough is being done to modify 4e to justify buying the product from what I've seen. You can't just fix what people said they wanted fixed, you've got to add more. See pathfinder, they fixed a bunch of stuff than added interesting stuff like alchemy. I'm not a huge fan of the game still, but it sure made it more appealing compared the 3.5.

I agree. Like in Pathfinder, the core product will mostly tread the same ground as its predecessor. However, later books will innovate. Innovation needs a foundation.

NO ONE BUT CHAINSAW SHOULD READ THE FOLLOWING.

Spoiler

Show

I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to be brutally honest: I'm not seeing a very professional touch in the artwork. It looks very flat. I'm not sure if these are just drafts, but you can clearly see they are done just through a painting program. Again, I mean no offence.

EDIT: Ah, it appears my spoiler has been ninjaed.

If you didn't want anyone to read the message, you could have sent me a PM or email or something. I do, however, agree. I was planning on taking the drawings and having a friend trace them over and make them look professional, giving both artists credit.

As an uninvolved outside observer, I must ask: are you kidding? If you tell me that you cannot see a difference in quality between this and this, this and this, or this and this... well, you're lying. There is a time and place for encouraging the endeavours of others - whilst you are trying to market a potential product is not it. If you are charging people for art then you damn sure better get artists who will deliver what people are paying for.

I apologise to Gligarman2 if I come off as harsh, but you need a reality check - the art you posted back on page 19 is not worth $70 per image, and shouldn't even be in a professionally produced product at all. The art in an RPG is one of the first things people will see as they flick through, and will often be what draws people in to see more, or what makes them close the book and leave it alone. If you are paying for an artist, choose one of the many professionals out there who will provide you with an evocative, inspiring, and high quality picture - it makes for a better product, it reflects better on you as a team, and most importantly it sells more copies.

I do see what you mean. I know that the drawings are not worth $70 a piece. I more want to help an emerging artist.

I also understand that that would be unfair to the people who donate to the project. Perhaps I can pay at least a good portion of Gligarman2's compensation out of my own pocket?

[Daemonhawk]

Okay, I'll be honest here.
The art is gods awful. Like, really bad. And you can hate me for saying this.
But here's the deal, if we are actually going to publish ANY sort of art, it needs to be AT LEAST of mild-professional quality. What we have now is something made on MS Paint, and sort've reminds me of the drawings I see from three-year-olds. I'm not saying you need to be on the level of Todd Lockwood, but you do need to at least attain some sort of...well, quality.

My suggestion here is use the money we collect to hire PROFESSIONAL artists, and make sure we get GREAT art.

Now, as for the writing, it's my work, so of course I like it. BUT I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL WRITER. I need to have people look over what I'm doing that are NOT in the project, and beat the Hell out of what I did, and say I can make it better.

Now, if you really want this project to take off, it's going to cost a HELL of a lot more than 5K. It REALLY is. I'd suggest you make a business plan before you go ANY further with the financial part of this project.

And finally, I'm not saying "Stop drawing." or whatever. But this is a serious piece of business, and the art needs to reflect that. As does the writing. Everybody needs to buckle down, take a good long look at what they've done, and assess what we REALLY need to work on.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Okay, I'll be honest here.
The art is gods awful. Like, really bad. And you can hate me for saying this.
But here's the deal, if we are actually going to publish ANY sort of art, it needs to be AT LEAST of mild-professional quality. What we have now is something made on MS Paint, and sort've reminds me of the drawings I see from three-year-olds. I'm not saying you need to be on the level of Todd Lockwood, but you do need to at least attain some sort of...well, quality.

My suggestion here is use the money we collect to hire PROFESSIONAL artists, and make sure we get GREAT art.

Now, as for the writing, it's my work, so of course I like it. BUT I'M NOT A PROFESSIONAL WRITER. I need to have people look over what I'm that are NOT in the project, and beat the Hell out of what I did, and say I can make it better.

Now, if you really want this project to take off, it's going to cost a HELL of a lot more than 5K. It REALLY is. I'd suggest you make a business plan before you go ANY further with the financial part of this project.

And finally, I'm not saying "Stop drawing." or whatever. But this is a serious piece of business, and the art needs to reflect that. As does the writing. Everybody needs to buckle down, take a good long look at what they've done, and assess what we REALLY need to work on.

Well put.

I believe that your writing, with a bit of editing, is publishable. I personally believe that my writing requires less editing, but if we are both edited, we are of about equal ability. Since my writing will make up much of the project, this makes you nigh-indispensable.

I say this because I want you to know that - if you continue with the project - you are GOING to become an integral part of it. I am not going to hire a writer to replace your work.

I really don't want to kick Gligarman2 and Dark Elf Bard off of the project. I like them and they are gorgeously enthusiastic. Perhaps, instead, they could have a role doing conceptual art and rough sketches for more experienced artists to build on, and could be paid a modest amount partially from the Magic Sword funds and partially from my own personal pool of resources.

Do you think 5k is a reasonable bare minimum?

[Gligarman2]

You know what, screw this. Chainsaw, I appreciate the project. I love your ideas and your spunk. However, if I am being told by even you that I need work, than I need work. I do not need your pity-money. If you would want me gone, just say so. I'll be out of your hair. I just want to make clear that if my art is poor, than say so. I may leave. I'm sure that all of you would want me to leave. Just don't fire Cabo0se. She has talent, if I don't. I'll be watching this project. Goodbye.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

You know what, screw this. Chainsaw, I appreciate the project. I love your ideas and your spunk. However, if I am being told by even you that I need work, than I need work. I do not need your pity-money. If you would want me gone, just say so. I'll be out of your hair. I just want to make clear that if my art is poor, than say so. I may leave. I'm sure that all of you would want me to leave. Just don't fire Cabo0se. She has talent, if I don't. I'll be watching this project. Goodbye.

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings. If you don't want money, I won't give it to you. That's fine.

Maybe you can write or something?

[A Cool Dog]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Daemonhawk]

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings. If you don't want money, I won't give it to you. That's fine.

Maybe you can write or something?

Gilgarman02, you need work. You do. You are not publishable, but that doesn't mean get off the project. I'd really like you to look over what I've done, rip it to shreds, I mean, make me cry if you have to, to tell me what I need to fix.

If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I'm a bit more...thick skinned than most people, so I tend to not put emotions in any part of what I say.

As for Dark Elf Bard, can I get a link to his art?

Have you even considered look right here, GitP for artists? I mean, there was RuleOfCool's Legend, that had great art. Maybe ask them, and raise publicity in the community. Maybe throw a Chat party where people can ask whatever they want. Something. It'll work out, but we REALLY need to but quality before emotions.

[elpollo]

I know that I can't draw. I know that my art is no where near professional quality. However, I am determined. I try to improve each time a make a drawing. This is an independant project, and I will work for free if necessary. Each time I draw, I ask for revisions. I am always ready to improve. In summary, I am not a professional artist. I am the avatar of the will of the creator of the project, the direct conduit of imagination!

You enjoy drawing - that's great, and should be encouraged. As unpaid art that circulates the internet you're fine. However, you suggested being paid $70 for your art - that's not just taking advantage of Chainsaw Hobbit, it's also insulting to those who have spent thousands of hours learning to draw well, and deserve to be paid for their work. If you don't feel that your work is worth $70, don't ask for $70 for it - work for the love of working, and with time and effort you may reach a point where you can honestly and proudly submit something that is worth the money.

I understand all of this. I can feel your enthusiasm. I admire your devotion to the project, and from what I know of you, I like you as a person.

It's a difficult lesson to learn, but personal feelings and business shouldn't mix.

I do see what you mean. I know that the drawings are not worth $70 a piece. I more want to help an emerging artist.

I also understand that that would be unfair to the people who donate to the project. Perhaps I can pay at least a good portion of Gligarman2's compensation out of my own pocket?

Great. It's good to support those learning a medium. It's bad to do so with other people's money. At this stage the best support you can give Gligarman2 is not money, but honest critique, of both good and bad (and there is both to give).

[elpollo]

*snip*

I apologise. My housemate saw me on this forum and thinks he's being funny. Reported.

[A Cool Dog]

I apologise. My housemate saw me on this forum and thinks he's being funny. Reported.

sad whimper

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I apologise. My housemate saw me on this forum and thinks he's being funny. Reported.

You refer to the wall of text about art quality?