Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[elpollo]

You refer to the wall of text about art quality?

I mean that A Cool Dog is my housemate, and should probably have his posts removed.

[Daemonhawk]

Hey, Chainsaw Hobbit, I'm not credited anywhere...

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Hey, Chainsaw Hobbit, I'm not credited anywhere...

Not yet. Your name will certainly be in an obvious place in the books. At the moment, however, I am disorganized, and don't have a list of everyone working on the project.

[Gligarman2]

Letter of Resignation:

I've left. I seriously can't believe you people would tell me I'm not able when I have already left. Seriously, rubbing salt into a completely deserved wound. Thanks for knocking me down to size. I appreciate it. I can't write. I can't draw, apparently. I don't deserve a job and I mistook my **** for art. I have failed on every possible level, and yet you still call me weak when that is an accepted fact. Perhaps I should make a webcomic or something. I really tried, but I guess success eludes me. Yeah, sorry about the pity party. I'll be cheering for you guys! But, yeah I've left. However, please keep Cabo0se. She is very talented.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Letter of Resignation:

I've left. I seriously can't believe you people would tell me I'm not able when I have already left. Seriously, rubbing salt into a completely deserved wound. Thanks for knocking me down to size. I appreciate it. I can't write. I can't draw, apparently. I don't deserve a job and I mistook my **** for art. I have failed on every possible level, and yet you still call me weak when that is an accepted fact. Perhaps I should make a webcomic or something. I really tried, but I guess success eludes me. Yeah, sorry about the pity party. I'll be cheering for you guys! But, yeah I've left. However, please keep Cabo0se. She is very talented.

I have sent you a private message. Please read it, and at least consider it.

If you do not accept, goodbye. I wish you well.

[Daemonhawk]

I'm creating a list of things that need to be done, in order of importance.

1.) Get organized/Get a Budget. We need to everybody in one area, and everybody who's working on the project on a list. We need to have a job, what we're doing, how we're doing it, and what qualifies as "completed".
We also need to determine how much everything is going to cost, and make a budget around that.
2.) The Playtest. This is CRUCIAL to our Kickstarter event, and it needs to be done ASAP if we have ANY hope getting this project done before Christmas.
3.) Quality Control. Somebody needs to determine the standard of quality we have here, and it better be higher than what we have now. I am completely
shocked over the art fiasco, and how poorly it was handled. We MUST have a standard, and people need to be able to meet that standard.
4.) Get Professionals. As soon as all of the above is completed, we need to hire some professionals. I took the initiative and asked around about some art prices, and I'll see what I turn up.

This project seriously means a lot to me, as it's the closest I've ever come to being a published author. Everybody needs to get it together, stop mixing emotions and business, and get crap done.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I'm creating a list of things that need to be done, in order of importance.

1.) Get organized/Get a Budget. We need to everybody in one area, and everybody who's working on the project on a list. We need to have a job, what we're doing, how we're doing it, and what qualifies as "completed".
We also need to determine how much everything is going to cost, and make a budget around that.
2.) The Playtest. This is CRUCIAL to our Kickstarter event, and it needs to be done ASAP if we have ANY hope getting this project done before Christmas.
3.) Quality Control. Somebody needs to determine the standard of quality we have here, and it better be higher than what we have now. I am completely
shocked over the art fiasco, and how poorly it was handled. We MUST have a standard, and people need to be able to meet that standard.
4.) Get Professionals. As soon as all of the above is completed, we need to hire some professionals. I took the initiative and asked around about some art prices, and I'll see what I turn up.

This project seriously means a lot to me, as it's the closest I've ever come to being a published author. Everybody needs to get it together, stop mixing emotions and business, and get crap done.

I meant that the playest could be done by Christmas, not the game.

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly. I screwed up. Standards WILL improve.

*cracks whip*

Everyone must get to work on the playtest!

[Daemonhawk]

I meant that the playest could be done by Christmas, not the game.

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly. I screwed up. Standards WILL improve.

*cracks whip*

Everyone must get to work on the playtest!

Thank you. Jeez. Leadership is hard to accomplish, but it needs to be done, especially with something like this. So, I'm going to go work now. Make sure those standards are up, and don't forget about Legend. Try to get some of those people.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Could you work for maybe $50 a drawing, with no royalties?

I didn't realize I'd come back to...well, everything between here and this.

Sorry for causing controversy...I happen to have gone to school for teaching art (though with the economy, all I've been able to find for work is being a security guard). In terms of work, I could certainly use the exposure.

As for the offer, perhaps I'll make one art and you can judge what you think it would be worth to have me? I'd prefer not to be discounted royalties, especially if I do multiple arts. It would also depend on the size, I'd say. If it was a full page, or quarter image, or so on. Does that sound resonable?

[Dark Elf Bard]

Um... wow.

It looks like people seemed to chase a young up-and-coming artist onto these boards.

'Cause he's not "professional."

It's not very professional to inslut some trying their hardest and taking up a second to job to pay for Photo shop, then saying "turns out we don't want you."

I'm really, really disappointed in you guys.

I still wanna work on this, but some of you guys really need to learn respect.

If not, I'm outta here.

Maybe you'd like that, as I'm not "professional."

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I didn't realize I'd come back to...well, everything between here and this.

Sorry for causing controversy...I happen to have gone to school for teaching art (though with the economy, all I've been able to find for work is being a security guard). In terms of work, I could certainly use the exposure.

As for the offer, perhaps I'll make one art and you can judge what you think it would be worth to have me? I'd prefer not to be discounted royalties, especially if I do multiple arts. It would also depend on the size, I'd say. If it was a full page, or quarter image, or so on. Does that sound resonable?

That sounds very reasonable.

*Snip!*

I feel terrible about this. But if it makes you feel any better, I've been having a PM conversation with Gligarman2. He's taking at least a couple of months off to work hard at improving his skills. Once he is of mild-professional quality, however long that takes, he will return.

[Dark Elf Bard]

I guess.


I'm not sure whether anyone here besides you want me here either.

[Surrealistik]

Concerning the playtest module, are my encounters still being used? Should I formulate more? Will my combat maneuvers be used?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Concerning the playtest module, are my encounters still being used? Should I formulate more? Will my combat maneuvers be used?

I like your encounters quite a bit, but concerning the current state of the playtest (the adventure having changed its premise), I don't think they will be used at this point in time. I hope for them to be somehow used later.

Your combat maneuvers, however, will certainly be used.

[Zelkon]

I don't want to discourage people, but if chainsaw is going to shell out $70 an illustration, he rightfully shouldn't have to spend it on an amateur. I mean that in the best way; I'm certainly not above him in skill level, not even close. I merely suggest that we get "real" artists; real as in people who do it professionally. I would be thrilled if he came back after honing his skills. It's just not currently professional quality. I believe he can get to professional quality or close enough to do a bit of illustrating by the end of this project.

[Surrealistik]

Well if any other encounters or mechanics specific to the playtest need to be made, let me know; I like to think of myself as proficient with 4e crunch and design.

[Zelkon]

I'm quite proficient with the math and design behind 4e (but not as much as Surrealistik. Look at the 4e punpun in his sig).

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Well if any other encounters or mechanics specific to the playtest need to be made, let me know; I like to think of myself as proficient with 4e crunch and design.

I'm quite proficient with the math and design behind 4e (but not as much as Surrealistik. Look at the 4e punpun in his sig).

Please ask Daemonhawk what he wants you to do.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not sure whether anyone here besides you want me here either.

From what I've seen, it's not a case of that. It's a case of mis-managed design intent.

Is this a casual product or a professional one? A professional one requires either professionals, or very talented amateurs. A casual product takes anyone with enough enthusiasm and/or interest, but understands that it probably will not have that professional quality at the end of the day. It might, but that's happy coincidence.

The former you fund, vet people working on it, pick the best, and manage it well...honestly, I don't think Magic Sword currently has that. I know *I* wouldn't fund what I've seen so far...it's not that organized, I haven't seen work on the level I'd expect if spending money, and so forth.

It DOES have a lot of enthusiastic amateurs working on it, which is a point in it's favor. I'd recommend cutting the idea of funding the project (I still think you'd have trouble with using terms and the basis of 4e, which is heavily protected by IP laws) and making it a professionally published work, and just go with the enthusiasm you guys have. Make it a learning process, and maybe you'll get something great, without all the hurt feelings.

Currently Magic Sword is moving in two opposing directions: Community Project, and Professional Endeavor. It needs to pick one direction, as the project will be better if it knows what it wants to be.

[Zelkon]

This has potential to be a professional product, and I think it would be better that way. You have no idea how small the difference is between a good-ish writer with a good editor and a great writer with an OK editor. Also, we're not building from the ground up. We have a mathematical foundation to work from, a good understanding of design goals, and a group of talented individuals (Surrealistik is a mechanics-evaluation god, Chainsaw is a great concepter and foundation maker, Daemonhawk keeps us on target, and I get around the Internet to learn what people want and like, which makes me a good critique-er. Plus, I have the benefit of being in the middle of a 4e heartbreaker, for whatever that's worth.)

[Daemonhawk]

If I'm staying here, people need to understand something.
I personally have high standards, even for myself. The art is the first thing people see, and I want it to look...amazing, in short. As I've said, I don't want Todd Lockwood here doing the art, but if Gilgarman02 is requesting 70USD plus royalties for the art, he better damn well be a Todd Lockwood.
And I will always speak my mind, even if it makes you cry or walk away for feel just...sad. It's the way I am, and the way I speak.
That's who I am as a person. And a LOT of people hate me for it. But I'm happy with who I am, and I plan to be this way for the rest of my time here.
And if Dark Elf Bard reads this, or Gilgarman02, know that, you're not bad artists, you're just not up to my standards for 70USD a print, and that's why I pushed Guilgarman02 so much. He's not a bad artist that's reached his limit, he just needs more practice.

So here's an idea. Gilgarman02 should take some time to work on his art. We release a playtest with NO art, and give the artists a chance to work on what they're doing, because they're going in the right direction. And I like it.
Once we release the playtest, and people get a real "taste" of what Magic Sword is all about, we give the artists a fair chance to produce 1 or 2 really good pieces each, and release that as an "art preview". I'm trying to give both of them a fair chance to get their art REALLY good, and make it look...well, nice. Then, we can compile everything together, and get a release going.

We also need to decide whether or not this is going to be self-published, or traditional publishing. I'd prefer traditional publishing, but self-publishing is fine. I think Amazon has some sort've PDF selling feature, or something like that. That's always a good route.

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.

Now, let's all work on what we're doing, all right? I'm glad to have each and everyone of you, and I think that, together, we can truly make sure 4E lives on long after WotC has left it behind.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I want to make Magic Sword a professional product. As long as I am in charge, Magic Sword will be a professional product. This is because I feel that fans of Fourth Edition deserve it.

Fourth Edition will soon no longer be supported. It will go out of print. The tools will be taken down. Web content will stop being produced. People will still be able to play it, but the fanbase will shrink, resources will dwindle, and the books will become expensive.

If Fourth Edition is to survive and flourish, Magic Sword needs to happen, and it needs to be good. It must uphold the high standards people have come to expect. It must be polished, well-edited, entirely playable, and gorgeous. It must be able to compete with the other standards, like Fifth Edition and Pathfinder.

Otherwise, very few people will play it, even fewer will be attached, and it will die.

Magic Sword must keep Fourth Edition's legacy alive.

[Zelkon]

I want to make Magic Sword a professional product. As long as I am in charge, Magic Sword will be a professional product. This is because I feel that fans of Fourth Edition deserve it.

Fourth Edition will soon no longer be supported. It will go out of print. The tools will be taken down. Web content will stop being produced. People will still be able to play it, but the fanbase will shrink, resources will dwindle, and the books will become expensive.

If Fourth Edition is to survive and flourish, Magic Sword needs to happen, and it needs to be good. It must uphold the high standards people have come to expect. It must be polished, well-edited, entirely playable, and gorgeous. It must be able to compete with the other standards, like Fifth Edition and Pathfinder.

Otherwise, very few people will play it, even fewer will be attached, and it will die.

Magic Sword must keep Fourth Edition's legacy alive.

This right here is why I try to contribute to every 4e clone/heartbreaker I see (hopefully that's not causing any monetary problems) and have started my own (though it's a heartbreaker.)

[Gligarman2]

If I'm staying here, people need to understand something.
I personally have high standards, even for myself. The art is the first thing people see, and I want it to look...amazing, in short. As I've said, I don't want Todd Lockwood here doing the art, but if Gilgarman02 is requesting 70USD plus royalties for the art, he better damn well be a Todd Lockwood.
And I will always speak my mind, even if it makes you cry or walk away for feel just...sad. It's the way I am, and the way I speak.
That's who I am as a person. And a LOT of people hate me for it. But I'm happy with who I am, and I plan to be this way for the rest of my time here.
And if Dark Elf Bard reads this, or Gilgarman02, know that, you're not bad artists, you're just not up to my standards for 70USD a print, and that's why I pushed Guilgarman02 so much. He's not a bad artist that's reached his limit, he just needs more practice.

So here's an idea. Gilgarman02 should take some time to work on his art. We release a playtest with NO art, and give the artists a chance to work on what they're doing, because they're going in the right direction. And I like it.
Once we release the playtest, and people get a real "taste" of what Magic Sword is all about, we give the artists a fair chance to produce 1 or 2 really good pieces each, and release that as an "art preview". I'm trying to give both of them a fair chance to get their art REALLY good, and make it look...well, nice. Then, we can compile everything together, and get a release going.

We also need to decide whether or not this is going to be self-published, or traditional publishing. I'd prefer traditional publishing, but self-publishing is fine. I think Amazon has some sort've PDF selling feature, or something like that. That's always a good route.

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.

Now, let's all work on what we're doing, all right? I'm glad to have each and everyone of you, and I think that, together, we can truly make sure 4E lives on long after WotC has left it behind.

Interesting fact: I have taken a sabbatical from MS. Chainsaw suggested your advice before you, and I'll keep improving. I just didn't know how professional this was. I'll work on my art every few weeks, stop focusing all my attention to MS, so I can improve. You are completely right, and I should have not asked for so much. I am not a professional, I had no right. However, please lighten up a bit! I see how serious you are, and I respect that. However, it may make people uncomfortable. Also, I had no idea that the writers were inherently on a higher level than the artists?

[Zelkon]

Art needs to be evocative and drawn-people-in-y. Writing keeps them there. Rules text needs to be concise, and it's pretty easy to do that. Flavor text needs editing. A steady hand, a good memory/imagination and more is needed for art, a few editors are good enough for writing.

[Daemonhawk]

Interesting fact: I have taken a sabbatical from MS. Chainsaw suggested your advice before you, and I'll keep improving. I just didn't know how professional this was. I'll work on my art every few weeks, stop focusing all my attention to MS, so I can improve. You are completely right, and I should have not asked for so much. I am not a professional, I had no right. However, please lighten up a bit! I see how serious you are, and I respect that. However, it may make people uncomfortable. Also, I had no idea that the writers were inherently on a higher level than the artists?

That's not what I said/meant. All I'm trying to say is that it USUALLY takes a significantly longer time to do a good piece of artwork that it does to say, write a thousand word description that is actually clear and concise. You are actually on a higher level than writing, because it's yours and DEB's art that is going to attract people to Magic Sword, which is why I want it to look so good. Your art is an immediate reflection of Magic Sword as a whole, and that's why I want YOU to SUCCEED at making the best art you possibly can.
Without the artist, I HIGHLY doubt anybody would even give Magic Sword a second look, because art has always been an integral part of tabletop RPGs.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.

But thank you.

[Daemonhawk]

But thank you.

Look. It's my opinion. In the end, it's Chainsaw Hobbit's choice of what's in, and what's out.

But, here's the deal. I'm going to give me your opinion. You don't make "bad" art, just art that's not of professional, publishable quality. But, work on that piece for a week or more, and it'll be ten times as good. And publishable. It just feels...halfway done to me.

And, if you're feeling up to it, tear what I did to shreds to see what's wrong with it.
Taking the Tomb

[Surrealistik]

Speaking of the playtest module, if you need help with the crunch, encounter design and/or monsters, let me know.

[Daemonhawk]

Speaking of the playtest module, if you need help with the crunch, encounter design and/or monsters, let me know.

Alright, thanks. You might wanna start helping out without designing the first adventure, which is locating just where the tomb is in the forest. I'm not 100% sure on how to make something like this actually enjoyable, while still providing information on Mistspire and the areas around it.