Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Who says it can't? Somebody must simply take the mantle, like Bruenor Battlehammer at the claiming of Mithril Hall.

Okay. Guys. I think the project can still be done. I'm so, so sorry about leaving. I can talk about it tomorrow, but for now, I must do other things. Please hang in there.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

So, I want to work on this again, but I want to change a lot of policies.

For one thing, the adaptation would be more abstract. It would be less "D&D", and more "Cinematic Heroic Fantasy System". The rules would still be heavily D&D 4e based, but would be less of a copy, and more of a loving offshoot.

Things such as bounded accuracy would be introduced, everything would be re-balanced, and the game would become more genaric.

How does this sound?

[Ialdabaoth]

So, I want to work on this again, but I want to change a lot of policies.

For one thing, the adaptation would be more abstract. It would be less "D&D", and more "Cinematic Heroic Fantasy System". The rules would still be heavily D&D 4e based, but would be less of a copy, and more of a loving offshoot.

Things such as bounded accuracy would be introduced, everything would be re-balanced, and the game would become more genaric.

How does this sound?

You should just officially join my project, then, rather than borrowing my subsystems. :) I'm already there.

[Ialdabaoth]

Actually, how about I do an infodump of some of the math-heavy stuff I've worked out:

Bounded Accuracy
"Bounded Accuracy" basically just means "the range between the lowest and highest possible to-hit values are less extreme than previous editions of D&D, so that lower-level monsters and higher-level monsters are difficult, but not impossible".

Generally, you want a maximum possible spread of 10 points on a D20, so that very high accuracy is still highly noticeable compared to very low accuracy, but not overwhelming.

The first thing you need to do, before you do "bounded accuracy", is to make sure that everything's on the same scale. 4E came close to this, but the fact that 4E's skill checks, attack rolls, and defenses were different systems that happened to (roughly) scale with each other means that whenever you tweak the scaling, you have to tweak all three scaling systems, and then verify that they always line up with each other.

This is tedious and error-prone.

A better solution is to hard-couple all three subsystems to a single "proficiency" math, and then you know that when you adjust that underlying math, all three systems automatically scale correctly relative to each other - since they all use that same math.

This is the accuracy system I use:

Spoiler

Show

Level
Characters increase in class level from 1 to 10. Past level 10, a character does not further progress in their character class - instead, they gain a paragon class and begin at level 1 in that paragon class. Once a character reaches level 10 in their paragon class, they may gain an epic destiny and gain levels in that destiny. Levels in a paragon class or epic destiny are not considered levels in a character class, and thus do not contribute to the character's ability bases (see below).

Abilities
An ability has three values - a score, a modifier, and a base. Each of these is used in different ways.

A character's ability score is a value, usually between 3 and 18 for humans, which measures that character's basic prowess in that particular ability. Some traits use an ability score directly - for example, a character's lifting and carrying capacity is determined directly by their Strength score, and their starting hit points are determined directly by their Endurance score.

A character's ability modifier is derived from their ability score - for each ability score, that ability's modifier is equal to the score divided by 2, minus 5. Thus, a score of 10 or 11 has a modifier of +0, while a score of 12 or 13 has a modifier of +1, a score of 14 or 15 has a modifier of +2, a score of 16 or 17 has a modifier of +3, a score of 18 or 19 has a modifier of +4, and a score of 20 has a modifier of +5. Except for accuracy, almost all combat effects that are affected by an ability, use the ability modifier. For example, a character's melee damage bonus is equal to their Strength modifier, while their ranged damage bonus is equal to their Dexterity modifier.

A character's ability base is derived from their ability modifier - for each ability score, that ability's base is equal to the sum of the modifier plus the character's level, divided by 2. Thus, a modifier of +5 would provide a base of +3 at level 1 and 2, +4 at level 3 and 4, +5 at level 5 and 6, +6 at level 7 and 8, and +7 at level 9 and 10. All proficiencies, defenses, and initiative use the character's ability bases to determine their base value, before applying other modifiers.

Proficiencies
A character has various proficiencies which determine their competence with particular weapons, skills, and armors. A character can have three levels of training in any given proficiency: untrained (+0), trained (+2), or expert (+3). This training bonus is added to the ability base for that proficiency, to determine the character's total check modifier for that proficiency.

Hand-to-Hand Proficiencies
Unarmed (Strength or Dexterity)
Grappling (Strength or Constitution)

Melee Weapon Proficiencies
Blades (Strength or Dexterity)
Flails (Strength or Dexterity)
Axes (Strength)
Bludgeons (Strength)
Hammers (Strength)
Spears (Strength)
Swords (Strength)
Polearms (Strength)

Ranged Weapon Proficiencies
Thrown (Strength or Dexterity)
Bows (Dexterity)
Crossbows (Dexterity)

Armor Proficiencies
Light Armor (Dexterity)
Heavy Armor (Constitution)
Shields (Strength)

Skill Proficiencies
Endurance (Constitution)
Athletics (Strength)
Acrobatics (Dexterity)
Stealth (Dexterity)
Thievery (Dexterity)
Arcana (Intelligence)
Craft (Intelligence)
History (Intelligence)
Heal (Wisdom)
Insight (Wisdom)
Nature (Wisdom)
Perception (Wisdom)
Religion (Wisdom)
Bluff (Charisma)
Diplomacy (Charisma)
Intimidate (Charisma)
Streetwise (Charisma)

It works out pretty well; it means that the absolute worst that a PC can do (level 1, untrained, ability score 6) is a +0 check modifier, while the best a PC can do (level 10, expert, ability score 20) is a +10 check modifier. Since defenses follow the same progression (your AC equals 10 + your armor's bonus + your armor proficiency check modifier, while other defenses equal your ability base + your class bonus), attacks and defenses never wind up out-pacing each other.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'd like to point out that bows should be able to use Strength, Ialdabaoth. Other than that, nice~

[Ialdabaoth]

I'd like to point out that bows should be able to use Strength, Ialdabaoth. Other than that, nice~

Not really; hand-eye coordination is key for actually putting your target where you want it; the only exception is things that are big enough for strength to matter on the actual projectile (hence Thrown). Remember that bows have a maximum draw strength; effectively, Exalted's system is the right way to do it (have a strength minimum for different bow types, so that Shortbows need a strength of 11+, Longbows need a strength of 13+, and Greatbows need a strength of 15+ to wield).

[The Troubadour]

Hi there! First of all, sorry for dropping off the forum, but you know how real life goes. :-)
Now, I'm still interested in doing the Bard, but I was wondering - how much can I deviate from the official one?

Edit: Well, talk about being out of the loop. Is this project still on?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Well, talk about being out of the loop. Is this project still on?

Well, sir, the answer to your question is a bit complex. The project is on hold, and will remain so unless I can get a good team together.

I really dropped the ball, and the project shattered because of it. I am trying to pick up the pieces and re-assemble it, but have had little luck so far.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

You know what? I'm going to make this happen, and this time, I'm going to do it right. I will my approach to building the system will be less stilted, and I will work with several times the enthusiasm.

I'm going to put together a new document, make a new thread, and pray others will be interested. I need other people if this is going to work.

[Zelkon]

I'm in. Where's the new thread? I promise I will do some work this time on the actual game, although I'm most likely best at concepting.

[INDYSTAR188]

Hi everyone! So I'm a very infrequent visitor to this thread (like I saw the first 3 pages a long time ago) and I really liked the idea of what you guys were trying to put together. Now, whether or not you decide MS isn't going to work as planned and drop it for another project, I wanted to swing by and give some development ideas for the future. Specifically I'm talking about the organizational structuring of your company. I would recommend you guys check out the Agile Software Development method. I am fully aware that it was designed for software but I think could easily apply to gaming development as well.

Basically what you need to do is organize yourselves. You need to have a live meeting (skype) and decided what your project goals are and who is your project lead. You then need to decide on who will be responsible for what tasks. Then you need to decide what your time frame per task is going to be and at that point you can break off and be responsible to your team lead and project lead for your product. This is especially good for you guys because it encourages working in small iterations and then sharing with the group on the agreed upon time, testing it, then improving it.

Good luck guys! I hope that I get to read your awesome gaming materials soon.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

New thread is up! You will find that the design process has been significantly altered, and the approach is much more well-defined.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...9#post14251039

I hope to have a Skype or Google+ meeting with others who are interested soon.

[garland81]

I actually finished a full 330 page player's handbook that revamps 4E with 3E and 2E features. Havent been playtested it though. Dont have a link on me. I will post it after work.

EDIT: bah... giantitp wants 10 posts before i can post a link

Just search "3e 4e hybrid" in enworld.org for an older version.