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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    In defence of Meenah, Id like to point out that she isn't really THAT bad. She doesn't walk around uttering the word "Murder" like a nervous tick while stabbing every living thing she sees that's dumb enough to get close enough. Yeah she wanted to poke Roxy, but think about it, that was her first encounter with a human, she didn't know what it was, certainly wasn't a Troll, why NOT poke it with a stick? i don't see people getting super upset when people lay out mouse traps to try and kill a mouse that's wandering around their home now do you?

    Further, Meenah hasn't actually done anything bad. As far as we know, she has not killed anybody (Save for her entire session but that was to avoid being unmade entirely), has not forced herself onto an unwilling subject, and has not stolen anything (outside what's in those chests but come on, who leaves their stuff in unlocked chests?). Arena wasn't telling Meenah about MEENAH's crimes, she was telling her about what Meenah's copy did, and Meenah was fangasming about how her alt-self pretty much got to do whatever she wanted without any consequences, and certainly never had to take any orders or responsibilities unless she wanted to, something Meenah never would have gotten the chance at on old Alternia, as with the old caste system she would basically be the servant of everyone on the planet.


    Really... She's not a bad person, at all. Hell i haven't seen her do one objectionable thing in the entire time we've known her, with exception to maybe wanting to poke Roxy, but again that's basically akin to wanting to poke an animal with a stick when you have no idea what it is, it's a childish instinct, don't know what something is? Poke it! Other then that she really has done nothing wrong, and hasn't acted in any way i can see that is wrong. Hell we've even seen her get along with Latula and Porrim, so i find it hard to believe they weren't her friends.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Also, she was dead when she tried to kill Roxy. It probably becomes hard to treat death as a big deal when you've already died.

    Not that she's a great person or anything, and I can definitely see her becoming the evil tyrant that her alt-self became, but she herself hasn't done anything that would make me hate her.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    At the very least, I suspect Beforus's culture would have kept her from doing anything like Vriska did pre-entry. Also, when being dead seems to have mellowed everyone except Vriska and Meenah out a bit, so people are probably going to be less hostile to her than they might have been during the session.

    And, to be fair, it's quite possible Aranea was something of a moderating influence to her, and that's something the Condense (I can never spell it right) didn't have, to my knowledge.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-18 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    In defence of Meenah, Id like to point out that she isn't really THAT bad. She doesn't walk around uttering the word "Murder" like a nervous tick while stabbing every living thing she sees that's dumb enough to get close enough. Yeah she wanted to poke Roxy, but think about it, that was her first encounter with a human, she didn't know what it was, certainly wasn't a Troll, why NOT poke it with a stick? i don't see people getting super upset when people lay out mouse traps to try and kill a mouse that's wandering around their home now do you?

    Further, Meenah hasn't actually done anything bad. As far as we know, she has not killed anybody (Save for her entire session but that was to avoid being unmade entirely), has not forced herself onto an unwilling subject, and has not stolen anything (outside what's in those chests but come on, who leaves their stuff in unlocked chests?). Arena wasn't telling Meenah about MEENAH's crimes, she was telling her about what Meenah's copy did, and Meenah was fangasming about how her alt-self pretty much got to do whatever she wanted without any consequences, and certainly never had to take any orders or responsibilities unless she wanted to, something Meenah never would have gotten the chance at on old Alternia, as with the old caste system she would basically be the servant of everyone on the planet.


    Really... She's not a bad person, at all. Hell i haven't seen her do one objectionable thing in the entire time we've known her, with exception to maybe wanting to poke Roxy, but again that's basically akin to wanting to poke an animal with a stick when you have no idea what it is, it's a childish instinct, don't know what something is? Poke it! Other then that she really has done nothing wrong, and hasn't acted in any way i can see that is wrong. Hell we've even seen her get along with Latula and Porrim, so i find it hard to believe they weren't her friends.
    No, she is really that bad. I mean we barely know anything about her, but that's the first impression she gives. She wants to stab something clearly just as humanoid as she is and doesn't care when another one shows up and tells her to stop. She just stabs with killing force and doesn't seem to care.

    I mean, if that's how she reacted now, after like five years of game time, what do you think she was like starting out? I mean, the first time she met her consorts would she have just started stabbing them to see what made them tick? What about carapacians, would she have tried figuring out what was under the carapace?

    Just poking something isn't the problem. Poking it with a weapon designed for killing with enough strength to cause that much trouble is. Even if it WAS just an animal, she would have just stabbed an animal to death without a second thought. Imagine if some 18-19 year old girl you heard went around stabbing dogs and such with a knife and that's literally what you're trying to claim she is.

    I mean while this was clearly the one bad ACTION, her reaction to her alternate self murdering about five billion humans, countless trolls, and an unknown number of carapacian, subjugating three planets, signing up to join the guy she wants to kill, and basically being one of the most major causes of problems in all of homestuck directly or indirectly, is adoration.

    Just because she isn't a cartoon cutout of evil like say, Belkar, doesn't change the fact that she is, inherently, from the actions and words we've seen, an evil person. This isn't DND where you just tick off a list so you are or you aren't a bad person. She's not the next Ghengis Kahn(technically), but that doesn't mean there's anything all that likable about her.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    You seem to be forgetting however that Trolls don't really have as high a regard for life as Humans do, if it's dead it's dead, and if it's not a troll, then it's not really important, otherwise it would be a Troll. Sure that may not have exactly been the case on prescratch Alternia, but Meenah is the Prescatch version of the one who made alternia the way it is, so it's fair to suggest she would have the same views on things. She doesn't view the life of this strange white non-troll creature as important because it's not hers, she's not the one being stabbed here, so what's the problem? She just wants to stab this weird thing that's kinda drooling all over her dreambubble.


    And again your suggesting that killing off Humans, a few Trolls, some Carapacians, and all that stuff is a problem to someone whos copy wound up doing all that, if her copy did it all and didn't see a problem with it then it's reasionable to assume she wouldn't either. (Mindfang and other prescratch ancestors exempt from this as they aren't the friggin empress here). The point is, Meenah's copy OWNS herself, not only that but she owns three planets, she owns the entire Troll species, she owns earth, she owns the Carapacians, she. has. power. Something Meenah never would have gotten the chance to have because of prescratch Alternia's messed up Caste system. The whole reason Meenah ran off to the moon was because she didn't want to become the glorified slave of everyone in her entire species present and future, so the idea that her copy not only shat on this idea but reversed it entirely is THRILLING to her! It's like having the hugest crush on Susan Mcduggle your entire life but being unable to talk to her, then you catch a glimpse of an alternate world where she's not only your wife, but you have three beautiful children together and you were able to turn the small amount of money she inherited from her father's death and turn it into a massive business empire, loved by millions and providing you with a higher cash income then the president himself. Your not only Envious of this copy of yourself, but at the same time your proud of him! He has everything you wanted and his life is awesome! And because of that you take a small amount of joy in knowing that in some alternate universe? You have everything. It's not the one your in now mind you, but that's still YOU married to the girl of your dreams with the empire of a king, he is still you, and it's awesome to know that there was at least a chance of having it all, that your entire life wasn't a hopeless quest with no chance of success, you've SEEN yourself with that success! You know that there IS a chance of it happening because it already did to another version of yourself!
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  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    In the meantime she still kind of defaults to "Murder People" When Aranea isn't there to yell at her.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    In the meantime she still kind of defaults to "Murder People" When Aranea isn't there to yell at her.
    Well she IS the troll that would have grown up to become the empress under the right circumstances.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Huh. I just came across this little tidbit; Homestuck now has a higher wordcount than some translations of war and peace; Chances are, by the time it's done, it will have more words than any of them.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Hmm. Looking at what I said I realized that I come off as a complete tool.

    Whilst I still think the things I thought before, my method of presentation makes me look both:

    A) Smug

    B) Stupidly angry.

    Im sorry for yelling like Glen beck with a youtube account.

    And after calming down and thinking about it I can trace most of my grievances to:

    A) Very muted character reactions. You can of course justify this from a realism standpoint, but im talking from a story perspective. When you have choirs singing about just how awesome (As in AWE-SOME) and epic things are, to suddenly to cut away to "Derp de derp- RELATIONSHIPS!". And I understand that a constant dreary tone would be very depressing and tiring. Then don't hype things up as much. Just my opinion.

    B) Too many characters. The more I move away from the 4 core characters the less developed and more stock/ blunt they become.

    C) A radical shift of tone (Ties in with A).

    So yeah. These are my grievances and sorry for annoying you people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Again. I wan't to say sorry for acting the way I did. I have this tendency to (Once Im on a negative criticism tangent) to start hating everything whether It actually bugs me or not. For example: The one sided fights don't bug me at all. So once again sorry for acting like a complete tool.

    I guess the tonal shifts become more and more noticeable with the continuously increasing in scope events.
    *Patpatpat*

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    To be honest, the underreaction to the death and suffering and stuff (besides Rose's reaction to her Mom's death... did she have a major reaction? I don't remember) has always disappointed me. I always thought, you know, here's a chance for some quality angst/sorrow here, but the kids always stoneface it.
    Gets a bit worrying after awhile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    You seem to be forgetting however that Trolls don't really have as high a regard for life as Humans do, if it's dead it's dead, and if it's not a troll, then it's not really important, otherwise it would be a Troll. Sure that may not have exactly been the case on prescratch Alternia, but Meenah is the Prescatch version of the one who made alternia the way it is, so it's fair to suggest she would have the same views on things. She doesn't view the life of this strange white non-troll creature as important because it's not hers, she's not the one being stabbed here, so what's the problem? She just wants to stab this weird thing that's kinda drooling all over her dreambubble.


    And again your suggesting that killing off Humans, a few Trolls, some Carapacians, and all that stuff is a problem to someone whos copy wound up doing all that, if her copy did it all and didn't see a problem with it then it's reasionable to assume she wouldn't either. (Mindfang and other prescratch ancestors exempt from this as they aren't the friggin empress here). The point is, Meenah's copy OWNS herself, not only that but she owns three planets, she owns the entire Troll species, she owns earth, she owns the Carapacians, she. has. power. Something Meenah never would have gotten the chance to have because of prescratch Alternia's messed up Caste system. The whole reason Meenah ran off to the moon was because she didn't want to become the glorified slave of everyone in her entire species present and future, so the idea that her copy not only shat on this idea but reversed it entirely is THRILLING to her! It's like having the hugest crush on Susan Mcduggle your entire life but being unable to talk to her, then you catch a glimpse of an alternate world where she's not only your wife, but you have three beautiful children together and you were able to turn the small amount of money she inherited from her father's death and turn it into a massive business empire, loved by millions and providing you with a higher cash income then the president himself. Your not only Envious of this copy of yourself, but at the same time your proud of him! He has everything you wanted and his life is awesome! And because of that you take a small amount of joy in knowing that in some alternate universe? You have everything. It's not the one your in now mind you, but that's still YOU married to the girl of your dreams with the empire of a king, he is still you, and it's awesome to know that there was at least a chance of having it all, that your entire life wasn't a hopeless quest with no chance of success, you've SEEN yourself with that success! You know that there IS a chance of it happening because it already did to another version of yourself!
    >.>

    <.<

    This kind of reminds of the whole, 'Vriska isn't very bad' debates. Except you can't even use the culture as an excuse for Meenah. Her culture was very sweet/kind/nurturing etc. etc. etc, and she is... well, she's a violent brute, to put it simply.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Tectonic Robot View Post
    >.>

    <.<

    This kind of reminds of the whole, 'Vriska isn't very bad' debates. Except you can't even use the culture as an excuse for Meenah. Her culture was very sweet/kind/nurturing etc. etc. etc, and she is... well, she's a violent brute, to put it simply.
    This. You can't use the whole "troll culture" thing with Meenah because that culture never existed to her. Her culture was basically cartoonishly pleasant and loving.

    And of course, you seem to be admitting she'd probably do that and then excusing that by saying other people did that. Unfortunately though you need to remember the kind of stuff those other people had to go through. Hussie himself said on formspring that Scratch is basically the homestuck equivalent of satan.

    So now you're basically saying her acting crazy is ok, because a bunch of vaguely related people on a hellish deathworld under the influence of satan working for mega-satan have acted the same or done worse, even though none of those people are portrayed as being good or ok or nice.

    It doesn't work that way. She's a violent, sociopathic, and amoral. She has no excuse for it and she has no real reason to be friends with anyone, and given how sessions work no reason to have been picked for it.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Anything Meenah does or attempts to do is okay because she's a cartoon.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Tectonic Robot View Post

    >.>

    <.<

    This kind of reminds of the whole, 'Vriska isn't very bad' debates. Except you can't even use the culture as an excuse for Meenah. Her culture was very sweet/kind/nurturing etc. etc. etc, and she is... well, she's a violent brute, to put it simply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    This. You can't use the whole "troll culture" thing with Meenah because that culture never existed to her. Her culture was basically cartoonishly pleasant and loving.

    And of course, you seem to be admitting she'd probably do that and then excusing that by saying other people did that. Unfortunately though you need to remember the kind of stuff those other people had to go through. Hussie himself said on formspring that Scratch is basically the homestuck equivalent of satan.

    So now you're basically saying her acting crazy is ok, because a bunch of vaguely related people on a hellish deathworld under the influence of satan working for mega-satan have acted the same or done worse, even though none of those people are portrayed as being good or ok or nice.

    It doesn't work that way. She's a violent, sociopathic, and amoral. She has no excuse for it and she has no real reason to be friends with anyone, and given how sessions work no reason to have been picked for it.

    Again Meenah is the exception in much the same way Feferi is, they both act opposite of what their culture actually is, and would fit in much better in one another's place. And for the record, we know nothing about prescratch Alternia's Culture other then that it's caste system was reversed, and even then you can't call it a happy and loving place, they still had lusi, likely still had kismisi, and whether she liked it or not, Had Meenah not run away, she would have been forced to tend to and take care of the lower castes against her will. I would hardly call any society that tells you "You ARE going to do this. no i don't care if you don't want to do it your gunna do it anyways" "Happy sweet and kind", sounds just as bad as the newer version if you ask me, the roles have simply been reversed so the majority vote has a higher opinion of it.

    And Im sorry,. she's violent, sociopath, and amoral how exactly? Outside of that one example of wanting to poke the weird alien girl i have seen nothing of the sort. At BEST Id say she's selfish, greedy, and a little crude. Hardly a violent amoral sociopath.

    One case of wanting to poke and alien and one case of fangasming over an alternate of herself that got to do whatever she wanted without anyone bossing her around does not a violent amoral sociopath make.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I'll give you violent, personally, but she does seem to get along with her friends, suggesting that, when she isn't in a stabby mood (Presumably Aranea was around more often to curtail her violent impulses), she isn't that bad to hang around with, if you're a troll. For that matter, the excessively constrictive nature of Beforus society (Every one of the Beforus trolls we've met so far has pointed out the caste system was still incredibly stifling on Beforus) probably kept Meenah from causing much havoc.

    By the way, has Hussy ever full out confirmed Aranea <> Meenah, or is it merely implied?

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I think I will let Aranea herself, Meenah's closest friend, weigh in on what sort of person Meenah is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homestuck
    ARANEA: She's not all that 8ad though.
    ARANEA: Well........
    ARANEA: When you really get to know her.
    ARANEA: And when she's unarmed.
    ARANEA: Which is........ pretty much never, now that I think a8out it.

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    ARANEA: Ok, she pro8a8ly is all that 8ad.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I'll grant that Meenah is likely a bad person (we don't know here THAT well), but that doesn't mean she's a bad character. The Joker is about as loathsome as you get, but he's a great character. (Or at least, he can be. Depends on the writer of course)
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Again Meenah is the exception in much the same way Feferi is, they both act opposite of what their culture actually is, and would fit in much better in one another's place.
    This is a possible reason she is the way she is. Understanding why someone is violent and crude doesn't stop them from being violent and crude though. The idea that she'd fit well on child-murdering hellish alternia is a point against her, not for.

    And for the record, we know nothing about prescratch Alternia's Culture other then that it's caste system was reversed, and even then you can't call it a happy and loving place, they still had lusi, likely still had kismisi, and whether she liked it or not, Had Meenah not run away, she would have been forced to tend to and take care of the lower castes against her will. I would hardly call any society that tells you "You ARE going to do this. no i don't care if you don't want to do it your gunna do it anyways" "Happy sweet and kind", sounds just as bad as the newer version if you ask me, the roles have simply been reversed so the majority vote has a higher opinion of it.
    You're saying that one person being forced into a job they don't want is equal to alternia, where the crippled are executed, children are expected to die as a matter of course, slaughter is considered the only occupation for every citizen, and the legal system just involves formalities before execution.

    There is no way to describe how incredibly foolish this is. I'm not going to mince words. I mean just look at the explanation for how culling differs. You can't really equate being executed to being adopted by a loving and doting parent without coming off like a sociopath yourself.

    And Im sorry,. she's violent, sociopath, and amoral how exactly? Outside of that one example of wanting to poke the weird alien girl i have seen nothing of the sort. At BEST Id say she's selfish, greedy, and a little crude. Hardly a violent amoral sociopath.

    One case of wanting to poke and alien and one case of fangasming over an alternate of herself that got to do whatever she wanted without anyone bossing her around does not a violent amoral sociopath make.
    Yeah, I'm going to stop you there. "Poke" implies a light touch that couldn't possibly break skin. That hit wasn't a poke, it was enough of a hit to shunt John out of his dream, which is visually implied from the strength of the throw and the reaction to it to be tantamount to an attempted lethal strike.

    That wasn't a poke, that was a jab with attempt to wound or kill. Her entire introduction is an attempt to wound a kid over a sweep/three years younger than her for looking kind of weird.

    She's greedy, self absorbed, crude, and violent to the point of attempted homicide. In a case of someone trying to kill you don't need to bring up like five examples of them trying to kill people. It's open and shut. She clearly tried to kill something despite knowing sentients not like her existed and people wouldn't want her to. She is homicidal. She is unapologetically homicidal.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Also, when told that an alternate self is a Genocidal, tyrant she nearly FAINTS with delight.

    She loves the idea SO much that even being punched in the face doesn't' fase her.

    If I was told that an alternate future me colonized mars, and made videogames look like a respected art form in the eyes of the public and caused the 5th disney renaissance to happen I would be awed, but I wouldn't be awed enough to ignore being punched in the face!

    This is also another problem of the muted character reactions. This could have made for a really interesting relationship:

    It could be like the Tulip touch (A story of a girls friendship with a pyromaniac). Where friendless Aranea makes friends with a crazy psychopath. It could be touching, whilst being disturbing at the same time with maybe a touch of humor.

    But instead its almost completely ignored. All the other pre-scratch trolls seem to like her anyway (Not angry at all that she caused the destruction of their planet and the rise of Alternia. I don't buy that after billions of years they don't care anymore, because they seem to care about everything else. Their either apathetic, or their not), and her trying to kill people caused "Meh" reactions all around.

    It doesn't have to be depressing, but a general knod of acknowledgement would make the whole story allot more invest-full.

    Like Lord english destroys the dream bubble. Nobody cares (Heck, the only things that even blinked and even treated the situation with gravity where the Becks).

    But what if Dave and Rose met dream John? Then, as the bubble is destroyed they look at each other in horror as they know that their friend had to die again a horrible painful death. Especially since that guy is 13 year old john. Maybe even reflect on it a little bit.

    Nothing too depressing, but gives a gravely (Padumpish) missing personal touch to the events of the comic.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 12:56 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Hmm. Looking at what I said I realized that I come off as a complete tool.

    Whilst I still think the things I thought before, my method of presentation makes me look both:

    A) Smug

    B) Stupidly angry.

    Im sorry for yelling like Glen beck with a youtube account.
    If it makes you feel any better, I find it about as amusing when you do it as when Karkat does it.

    Like, RAAAAAARRRRRRRR! RAAAAAAAAAAAGE! Hee hee!

    It is kind of cute. :33

    Personally, I think that the whole "If you don't like it, don't read it" response is a little dubious. One might think that people wouldn't like things that scare them, and yet horror is a whole friggin' genre. For that matter, sometimes some people like SAD stories. Given that, is it so inconceivable that some people might enjoy reading a story that they hate? And if they do, who are we to say that's illegitimate?

    In conclusion, I feel that having a hateboner for a work of fiction is not only valid, but more importantly, lulz.

    But to address your complaints (Spoilered 'cause this wound up being HUGE):

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    The kids being paradox clones explains any arbitrary difference between them and normal human beings, but that doesn't make them relatable, which seems to be your complaint. (Similarly, the trolls are aliens, but they're supposed to be aliens of a sort that human readers can relate to.) Fair enough, but being unable to relate to characters on one thing doesn't mean that you can't relate to them on other things. And, as has been noted, extended mourning might not have been all that fun to read, plus it really could have occurred offscreen.

    Character reactions to things often seem to be rather weird in Homestuck in that dialogue suggesting negative feelings often won't be reflected on a sprite. I noticed that a lot with Tavros and Terezi, whose sprites are often depicted as grinning regardless of circumstances. Even though sprites with other expressions are available, and I think hero mode drawings of them tend less towards this? It's weird.

    As an example, look at Jane smiling normally in [S] Jane: Enter, despite looking rather sullen just previously, and with her expressions and dialogue before that indicating that she should remain so for a significant period of time.

    I basically have to go beyond just adjusting my interpretation of how the character looks and assume that she's being depicted inaccurately. But it seems weird that I should have to do that with facial expressions. Like, am I expected to make that mental adjustment? It's obvious that I'm expected to adjust re: arms, but it doesn't seem obvious here. Again, it's weird.

    The idea that characters can be undeveloped by getting less screen time doesn't really make sense to me. What does make sense, however, is the idea that they might come to seem less characterized as one forgets their previous characterization. If I reread Homestuck right now, I'd probably have a much clearer concept of what several characters are like than I currently do.

    Hussie has indicated several times that he's more concerned with the experience of archival than serial readers, in no small part because most readers will see any given page first while reading through the archives. This perspective -- that we're watching the formation of an as yet incomplete story -- is worth bearing in mind. And if you find that reading the story as it forms interferes with your enjoyment, it might be worth considering just waiting a few years for the thing to be finished and then reading it all at once.

    Essentially, only getting a little bit of the story at a time doesn't allow one to see how it "really" is, it prevents one from seeing how it "really" is, because of the two ways of reading it, it's "meant" to be experienced more like a movie or a novel than like a television series. Or rather, of the two ways of experiencing Homestuck, archival reading is the more intended one.

    Also, bear in mind that Homestuck updates a lot more often than a normal webcomic. Like, tremendously more. So much more that a normal webcomic focused entirely on OMG EPIC PLOT would probably output less epicness, in absolute terms, than Homestuck does. So we don't get any less of that, we just also get other stuff in between. And this other stuff allows us to get to know the characters and their relationships with each other and makes the OMG EPIC stuff seem all the more impressive by comparison. Because there's just these kids, see, doing all sorts of relatively unimportant and mundane things, AND THEN SUDDENLY ALL SORTS OF CRAZY **** IS HAPPENING OH MY GOSH WOW WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT!

    But just as the relatively mundane may make the spectacular even more exciting by comparison, so too may the spectacular make the relatively mundane more dull. And the relatively unimportant stuff can crowd out the epic stuff in your overall impression of the story, and some readers may not like that. They may wish that they could skip the "boring parts", but the "boring parts" are necessary to really understand the exciting parts, and thus getting through them may seem like a chore. I personally do not find any part of the story to be boring, but hey, that's me.

    I hesitate to recommend Homestuck to anyone who doesn't have plenty of free time, both because there is a lot of it, and also because a lot of people seem to find the beginning to be unappealing. (I didn't, but again, that's me.) For a lot of people, it's probably not really worth it to slog through a lot of stuff that they don't care for to get to "the good parts". "Thousands of pages of kids arguing with each other over the internet, mostly? PASS!" That's a legitimate response!


    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    You seem to be forgetting however that Trolls don't really have as high a regard for life as Humans do, if it's dead it's dead, and if it's not a troll, then it's not really important, otherwise it would be a Troll. Sure that may not have exactly been the case on prescratch Alternia, but Meenah is the Prescatch version of the one who made alternia the way it is, so it's fair to suggest she would have the same views on things. She doesn't view the life of this strange white non-troll creature as important because it's not hers, she's not the one being stabbed here, so what's the problem? She just wants to stab this weird thing that's kinda drooling all over her dreambubble.

    And again your suggesting that killing off Humans, a few Trolls, some Carapacians, and all that stuff is a problem to someone whos copy wound up doing all that, if her copy did it all and didn't see a problem with it then it's reasionable to assume she wouldn't either.
    ... Do you actually think that this somehow works out to be an argument that Meenah ISN'T such a bad person? If so, WTF?

    If Meenah comes from a peaceful culture, yet still has the same disregard for the welfare of others as the version of her personally responsible for turning her planet into a murderous hellhole, how does that add up to her NOT just personally being a huge bitch (bluh bluh)?

    She really is like a human who goes around killing animals for fun. Or just out of boredom, which seems like it might be more applicable here. Now, I won't deny that someone can hunt for sport and still behave amicably towards her own friends. But I'm not seeing how being good friends with people somehow makes recreational killing less bad.

    Also, you keep implying that she has never done anything worse than what we've already seen her do onscreen. How do you not get that there is no reason whatsoever to assume that? Her being a fan of a brutal genocidal dictator strikes me as an indication that just maybe she may have done some pretty brutal things herself that we're not yet aware of. Yeah, we don't know that she personally killed someone's lusus, made chilli out of it, and fed it to him, but I'm not seeing any obvious indication that she didn't do anything at least close to that horrible either.

    It's like having the hugest crush on Susan Mcduggle your entire life but being unable to talk to her, then you catch a glimpse of an alternate world where she's not only your wife, but you have three beautiful children together and you were able to turn the small amount of money she inherited from her father's death and turn it into a massive business empire, loved by millions and providing you with a higher cash income then the president himself.
    It's kind of like that. But it's more like looking in on an alternate world where Susan is your sex slave who you keep locked in a dungeon, and feeling ecstatic about that.

    To complete the analogy, Susan holds a(n unfair, in your view,) position of authority over you in your own world, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Had Meenah not run away, she would have been forced to tend to and take care of the lower castes against her will. I would hardly call any society that tells you "You ARE going to do this. no i don't care if you don't want to do it your gunna do it anyways" "Happy sweet and kind", sounds just as bad as the newer version if you ask me, the roles have simply been reversed so the majority vote has a higher opinion of it.
    Weren't nearly 100% of the trolls who survived to adulthood on Alternia inducted into the military by the time of Hivebent? I'm pretty sure that that was a thing.

    You could say that a world in which even one person is enslaved isn't any better than any other world, of course. I would rather be born on a world in which my chance of being enslaved is low than on a world in which my chance of being enslaved is high, myself. I'd rather be forced to peacefully lead people than be forced to kill people, for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    I'll grant that Meenah is likely a bad person (we don't know here THAT well), but that doesn't mean she's a bad character. The Joker is about as loathsome as you get, but he's a great character. (Or at least, he can be. Depends on the writer of course)
    Meenah has tremendous Heroic Sociopath potential, at least theoretically. I foresee great things for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    (I don't buy that after billions of years they don't care anymore, because they seem to care about everything else. Their either apathetic, or their not)
    My personal assumption is that becoming a ghost absolutely cripples in some way your capacity to grow and develop as a person. You can walk around and talk to people and even learn new things, but in a very fundamental sense you're incapable of truly changing. Because you're dead. A shadow of the person you once were.

    Pretty horrifying, some might say. But contrast that to the alternative. Imagine meeting a living, millennia older future you, and discovering that this "you" not only seems utterly unlike you, but doesn't even remember being you. And then being hit by the realization that you aren't going to exist in a thousand years, this other person will instead.

    The truth is, to live is to die. Life is a process. A process inherently involves change. Change is destruction; it is the transformation of one thing into another, in which the old thing is destroyed that the new may be created. And if a single life is a continuous sequence of conscious experiences, then you are going to die when you go to sleep. So make the best of your one day. It may be that you, of all versions, are special in some way that will let you positively influence the world for ages to come, or at least the lives of all of your successors. But it won't happen if you don't even try.

    Disclaimer: I am not a licensed Seer of Heart.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    And with the latest update, we see that John does /not/ take Dave Sprite impersonating his father well.
    You can shout it from the roof-tops, you'll be preaching to the choir.
    And you better get started on this funeral pyre, and one day I will truly set myself on fire so you can see how dim my light is.
    So you can see how dim is my life

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    And with the latest update, we see that John does /not/ take Dave Sprite impersonating his father well.
    Yeah, I think this should at least partially answer the question of the kids having gotten over their parents' deaths too quickly.
    Patchwork Magisters - Volume III is now available! You know, if you like that sort of thing.

    Which you do.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I disagree. Because it continues to treat it goofily. This is something that is a personal taste, but this treatment feels very goofy. Like a joke, rather then him being genuinely upset.

    But this is personal taste.

    edit:

    Actualy I think I can explain.

    The beginning of the scene was "Funny times with Angsty John and Jade" not only did the jokey tone carry over, but so did the method of presentation. In addition it was a RAPID shift to Johns dads death. In a comedy when a jokey tone suddenly shifts to one guy getting angry, the result is more of a jokey tone. If the previous conversation did not occur (About the movie), then this would come off allot more serious.

    About Meenah:

    Lets say you had a friend that simply LOVED Mien Kamphf, giggled when the holocaust was brought up, and wen't around stroking a knife. And almost stabbing you.

    Whilst living in a utopian society.

    To the devils Advocate.

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    And, as has been noted, extended mourning might not have been all that fun to read, plus it really could have occurred offscreen.
    If entended mourning isn't fun, then don't create a situation where it has to occur or your characters come off as robots.

    And John just fought a Universe devouring demon. It just occurred offscreen.

    The idea that characters can be undeveloped by getting less screen time doesn't really make sense to me.
    Its because we find out more about how a character thinks, how they react, and who they are. There is a certain point where you can predict what a character would do (And if you predicted wrong then maybe find out something new about them).

    Essentially, only getting a little bit of the story at a time doesn't allow one to see how it "really" is, it prevents one from seeing how it "really" is, because of the two ways of reading it, it's "meant" to be experienced more like a movie or a novel than like a television series. Or rather, of the two ways of experiencing Homestuck, archival reading is the more intended one.
    Well yeah. It becomes more apparent on re-reads. One flash its all "OMG CHOIRS, EXPLOSIONS, DEATHS!" the next update its "This movie sucks! LOLOLOLOLOLOL" Having to wait actually helps PREVENT it from happen. That way its "OMG CHOIRS, EXPLOSIONS, DEATHS" and then one week later its "This movie sucks! LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

    AND THEN SUDDENLY ALL SORTS OF CRAZY **** IS HAPPENING OH MY GOSH WOW WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT!
    Thats called key jingling.

    "Oh you bored since the characters reacted very muted? Well...Um...OOOOOH! LOOK AT THE SHINY KEYS! OOGATEY BOOGATEY!".

    Thats not good writing. I could have a guy having breakfast and show explosions and action movie star parades outside his window. It still has the same disconnect Im talking about. Where the action (The Flashes) become more of a spectacle to shake keys in your face rather then connect it with our characters.

    But just as the relatively mundane may make the spectacular even more exciting by comparison, so too may the spectacular make the relatively mundane more dull.
    Yup. Im just saying that epic things only REALY become epic when we can invest with the characters. When we can go "NOOO! Why did he have to die! He felt like a real person!" rather then "Noo! Why did he have to die! He was the most amusing character!". Because otherwise epic things just devolve into the kind of Key jingling that Micheal bay is a master at.

    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 09:33 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    About Meenah:

    Lets say you had a friend that simply LOVED Mien Kamphf, giggled when the holocaust was brought up, and wen't around stroking a knife. And almost stabbing you.

    Whilst living in a utopian society.
    Except that isn't really what happened, Prescratch Alternia was dead and gone for billions of sweeps before Meenah heard about it, and there were only twelve members of this "Utopian society" left, all of which were equally as abnormal or freakish as the last. It's like living on a rock ten thousand years in the future with a group of close friends and going "Oh hey remember that one time when our species was dumb enough to let that Adolf guy kill all those people? Hah! we were morons back in that century." By that time enough time would have passed that it wouldn't be a big deal, it would just be this thing that happened, nobody witnessed it firsthand or was there to experience it, so they've never felt bad for it because it didn't affect them.

    And again, Prescratch Alternia was obviously not a utopian society, yeah it didn't have a powerful military and they didn't cull the weak and the sick for the benefit of the entire species (as far as we know) But they still had a caste system that put the most powerful individual on the planet in a position she obviously did not want to the point of her running away. A Utopia is supposed to be a society where everyone is happy isn't it? Doesn't sound very much like it to me.

    To everything else: Yeah i'm sorry, i just woke up and i can't think of anything to counter with at the moment, haven't even had breakfast yet. Can we put this discussion on hold for a bit? Papaer, Squark, Fill in for me.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2012-09-19 at 09:36 AM.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Except that isn't really what happened, Prescratch Alternia was dead and gone for billions of sweeps before Meenah heard about it
    Where are you getting that? Meenah and Co grew up in a fully functional Prescratch Alternian (AKA Beforian) society. That's why Meenah Fled, she didn't want the responsibility that came with being Empress.

    It just so happens that the other Ghostrolls appeared in the Dream Bubble thousands of years before Meenah did.
    Last edited by BRC; 2012-09-19 at 09:50 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Where are you getting that? Meenah and Co grew up in a fully functional Prescratch Alternian (AKA Beforian) society. That's why Meenah Fled, she didn't want the responsibility that came with being Empress.

    It just so happens that the other Ghostrolls appeared in the Dream Bubble thousands of years before Meenah did.
    No i mean Dragon's mein kamph thing, The Utopian society has not only been dead and gone for sevral billion years, but the Alternia in wich it all happened is also dead and gone, and none of them were present for it.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    No i mean Dragon's mein kamph thing, The Utopian society has not only been dead and gone for sevral billion years, but the Alternia in wich it all happened is also dead and gone, and none of them were present for it.
    Your argument doesn't make sense. THEY grew up with the Utopian society. She herself is an unpleasant murderous person. The other trolls grew up on Utopiana, thus their morals say that killing is wrong and mass genocide is horrible.

    Yet they still like her anyway.

    edit:

    And don't play me "But their apathetic" card. If your playing it then add the "Catatonic from exhausting every possible form of entertainment" status on your troll monsters card.

    They don't ACT apathetic. They still find interest in things that they should have been bored of millions of years ago.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Your argument doesn't make sense. THEY grew up with the Utopian society. She herself is an unpleasant murderous person. The other trolls grew up on Utopiana, thus their morals say that killing is wrong and mass genocide is horrible.

    Yet they still like her anyway.
    Okay and?


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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    So are they ALL nuts?

    Would you be friends with a guy that tries to kill you, read hitlers book, and watches snuff films? And steals your crap to sell off of ebay? And demonstrates no reason to like?

    Thats the problem of muted character reactions. They come off as sociopaths.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    well we havn't seen Meenah try to kill her friends. She's just tried to kill random humans/Alternian Trolls she's met in a dream bubble.
    Which isn't much better.
    And still dosn't erase the whole "Loved the Idea of turning into Fish Hitler" thing.
    Last edited by BRC; 2012-09-19 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    We haven't SEEN her try to kill any of her friends. And Aranea indicated that she at least TRIED to do that before.

    She said something about her only being decent when not around her weapon which is never.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Yeah one human in a case none of her freinds saw, and as far as we can tell never any other troll.

    Further have you ever figured that maybe violence in Trolls is just a lot more acceptible then it is here? Or alternitively there is the whole forgiveness factor.

    "Yeah she tried to kill me, but to be fair i did just call her a cowerd for running away from the caste. But we're both over it now soooo yeah, we're gunna go see a movie and pork behind the theater. Back in two hours."
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