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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Yeah one human in a case none of her freinds saw, and as far as we can tell never any other troll.
    .....Are you trolling mon? You just outright ignore my arguments. I pointed out that Aranea implied that shes ALWAYS like this.

    And isn't the point of old alternia it being NOT a mindless madness place?

  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    .....Are you trolling mon? You just outright ignore my arguments. I pointed out that Aranea implied that shes ALWAYS like this.

    And isn't the point of old alternia it being NOT a mindless madness place?
    Part 1: At the very least, It's been said that Damara (Aradia's Dancestor) and Meenah had a similar conflict to the one Vriska and Terezi/Aradia had. She seems to have gotten along fine with Porrim, though, and Latula seems to have had a friendly rivalry with her for the most part. She does seem to have thought Kankri was a pompous windbag, but, well, he is. Of the remaining Pre-scratch trolls, She doesn't seem especially fond of Mituna Captor (but even his Matesprit admits he's a grump), and she hasn't commented on Meulin or any of the unnamed ones yet as individuals.

    Part 2: Mindless violence wasn't present. But the most recent flash game makes it clear that that doesn't mean it was a perfect happy place; Everyone of the Beforus trolls we've met so far apart from Aranea clashed with the culture to some degree, and even Aranea admits it created serious issues for her friends.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-19 at 11:58 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I get that. No utopia is ever like the ads.

    But there is a clear difference between "Yp lets chill" and "AHAHAAHA BLOOOOOOOD!"

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I think the fact of the matter is that either way Trolls are just too different from humans for us to consider any culture they make, be it bifourus or Alternian to be "good". Partly because it doesn't agree with our own, and partly because no culture can be perfect, and everything has it's own flaws.
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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    In entirely unrelated news, Eridan Gangnam style. Though it lacks the key scene wich would make it perfect.
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  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    In entirely unrelated news, Eridan Gangnam style. Though it lacks the key scene wich would make it perfect.
    You mean the scene in the elevator with Gamzee hip-thrusting over him?
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  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    I think the fact of the matter is that either way Trolls are just too different from humans for us to consider any culture they make, be it bifourus or Alternian to be "good". Partly because it doesn't agree with our own, and partly because no culture can be perfect, and everything has it's own flaws.
    So casual murder and disregard of life is a minor flaw (And genocidal tendencies are merely Mehed?)? And Utopian? So whats the difference between A1 and A2? That A2 has class struggle?

    If so, then we are wasting our time on the trolls. They are too unrelate-able. Too alien.

    You don't care if in some comic some rich doofus drops crashes his car and then goes "meh" and buys a new one. You care if some poor doofus crashes his fathers car and feels bad about it and goes on a wacky adventure to fix it.

    Same thing with aliens. If the aliens don't care about murder and genocide, then I can't relate. I just end up going: WHAAAAAT? Its entertaining for a while, but soon gets boring because I don't care what happens to them because they don't care.

  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    They've been dead for millenia. They've calmed down a lot since Meenah was up to her shenanigans. It's no surprise that they don't really care about what she was like. Again, hard to care about killing when you're already dead.

    From what we've heard, Meenah's shenanigans did cause a ton of trouble while she was alive, and was one of the major reasons that their session went so poorly.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    You mean the scene in the elevator with Gamzee hip-thrusting over him?
    No, the Scene where Feferi is on her hands and knees stretching and Eridan is going crazy over her rear-end

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    So casual murder and disregard of life is a minor flaw (And genocidal tendencies are merely Mehed?)? And Utopian?
    For Trolls? To put it quite simply... yes.



    So whats the difference between A1 and A2? That A2 has class struggle?
    They both had a class struggle, in A1 it's the highbloods serving the lowbloods, in A2 it's the other way around. That, and Feferi/Meenah being in charge respectively, and A2 having the existace of Gl'Glob and an extra moon seems to be about it.

    If so, then we are wasting our time on the trolls. They are too unrelate-able. Too alien.

    You don't care if in some comic some rich doofus drops crashes his car and then goes "meh" and buys a new one. You care if some poor doofus crashes his fathers car and feels bad about it and goes on a wacky adventure to fix it.

    Same thing with aliens. If the aliens don't care about murder and genocide, then I can't relate. I just end up going: WHAAAAAT? Its entertaining for a while, but soon gets boring because I don't care what happens to them because they don't care.
    Well for me anyways i find the whole murder and genocide thing interesting, it shows differences in their species from our own, how they go to higher extremes to allow of their species to survive, and find things we would normally find repulsive perfectly okay. It's just a case of different strokes for different folks i think.
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  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    They've been dead for millenia. They've calmed down a lot since Meenah was up to her shenanigans. It's no surprise that they don't really care about what she was like. Again, hard to care about killing when you're already dead.
    I don't buy that. Lets be VERY generous and say that they have only existed for 2 billion years (The minimum amount to qualify for "billions").

    By that point in time even the high bloods would be engaging in blood murder orgies in order to bring about a feeling or an experience that they haven't felt before.

    There is this thing, that the longer you live, the faster time flies. That SHOULD work the same way for them.

    By that point in time you should be catatonic, laying on the floor screaming because your brain is so bored. Its experienced everything it can experience, its mastered and gotten bored off everything it can simply because its done everything else.

    But their not like that. They seem to have the same passions they had in life (Going by the- They stop evolving once in a dream bubble theory). So why aren't they still angry?

    Going by Draconis theory: That they are simply way too alien.

    Then why try to raise them as characters? If their so alien that 50% of their habits seem alien to us then we are wasting 50% of our time with them.

    Its interesting to have a different psychology, but thats interesting ONCE. Its interesting as a concept, and as a study. But for those same reasons that means they cannot be used as characters because we can't get invested in them. Possibly worse, they REPULSE us.

    Lets say we had an alien that came over to another and farted in its face. From then on they are mated for life and love each other.

    Interesting, but not relatable, especially for the long term.

  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Just to be clear; The Beforus cast structure was not just a reverse of Alterania's. The flash suggests that it was a lot closer to "White man's burden" (Actually, pretty sure kankri uses the term Blueblood's Burden somewhere in his monolithic rant), and that in general it often had lower castes being treated like children by higher castes.

  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Also Highbloods that would have had close relationships with lower bloods would have watched them die before thier eye in a quarter (Or eighth or sixteenth) of their lifespan.

    Relationships would be very different.

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    For that matter, Highblood psychology would be different, to cope with the longer lifespan. And the fact that people they knew were going to outlive them would affect lowblood's attitudes as well.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-19 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Highbloods would likely be detached from Lowbloods. Maybe thats where the treatment comes from?

    Cause in the long term its likely to cause ALLOT more grief to all parties.....

    Maybe that why they don't care about death or each other? Because their psychologicaly not care about the deaths of their close ones as they are likely to outlive them?

    So perhaps heavy troll love is mild human friendship with benefits?

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Could be, would make sense anyways, from what we know they don't really tend to grieve over their dead very long, just dragging dead lusi into the wilderness to be eaten by scavengers and the like.

    They might try to get revenge on somebody who killed a friend or quadrent-filler, but after that Iím guessing they would just move on.
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  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Highbloods would likely be detached from Lowbloods. Maybe thats where the treatment comes from?

    Cause in the long term its likely to cause ALLOT more grief to all parties.....

    Maybe that why they don't care about death or each other? Because their psychologicaly not care about the deaths of their close ones as they are likely to outlive them?

    So perhaps heavy troll love is mild human friendship with benefits?
    I suspect it's more likely most trolls just form long term relationships (That is, Morrails, Matesprits, and Kismesises) with trolls in similarly long or short lived castes once they get to the settling down point (Remember, both groups of trolls we've actually seen talking have been adolescents. The one social group of adults we've seen, the Sufferer's group, was predominantly lowbloods and green-hued). But that isn't a bad idea.

  17. - Top - End - #857
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Huh. So yeah. My argument about lacking attachment still stands. But also my argument about interesting analysis.

    Maybe the Trolls see humans as overtly clingy and attached? And over-emotional?

    Again, very interesting to discuss, but makes for not very interesting characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    I suspect it's more likely most trolls just form long term relationships (That is, Morrails, Matesprits, and Kismesises) with trolls in similarly long or short lived castes once they get to the settling down point
    So this obviously leads to a higher level of segregation.

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    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 03:25 PM.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I think we just invented a new headcanon!
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  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    I think we just invented a new headcanon!
    It works pretty well!

    I think it works better then the theory about not intermingling because even as kids they would be discouraged from mingling. Otherwise its going to be depressing watching their lower caste friends die.

    So yes. This is my new headcannon. Trolls care less about death and emotion because of the constant death surrounding them because of the blood castes.

    edit:

    Also another factor that works well with this Head-cannon:

    No children. Children are cared by drones and are not a responsibility of adults.

    For humans, children are a sort of "Final step" in a relationship. It means your serious SERIOUS. And once their there it enforces the emotional bond even further.

    For Trolls mating doesn't matter that to them at all since their spawn won't matter to them.

    It still doesn't explain why humans are so emotionally stunted in the comic but whatever.

    The Flashes are still impressive and the funny stuff is still funny. Il continue reading, but its no longer as good as I thought it was. Is more of a spectacle comic. Like Prequel or such.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-19 at 03:49 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #860
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    I suspect it's more likely most trolls just form long term relationships (That is, Morrails, Matesprits, and Kismesises) with trolls in similarly long or short lived castes once they get to the settling down point (Remember, both groups of trolls we've actually seen talking have been adolescents. The one social group of adults we've seen, the Sufferer's group, was predominantly lowbloods and green-hued). But that isn't a bad idea.
    We saw Mindfang pretty much willing to get it on with Tavros's ancestor. Considering Aradia's wouldn't have lived past thirty in human years, Tavros was probably similarly impared, though not quite as drastic I'd bet money he'd have died long before an average human.
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  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    One question: What genocide are we talking about with Meenah?

    She's always been hard to get along with, prone to threats and close to violence, but she the only time she's actually killed anyone that we know about was when she killed herself and her team to ensure they survived the scratch in some form. The only murders she's actually carried out were in fact a ploy to save their lives.

    If you're talking about her reaction to the Condesce, there are three things to keep in mind on that.

    First, she just woke up in the dream bubbles, as in literally the first thing she saw after the bright light was Roxy. She has not had the time to calm down and mature the way the others have.

    Second, whatever you may say about Condesce, she did what Meenah only dreamed she could do: she played by her own rules (until meeting the Handmaid), displayed dominance in both her homeworld and much of outer space (including at least two worlds in whole other universes), and is still out there dominating some corner of reality. Even if you leave out the genocides and regicides and other 'cides besides, Meenah would be swooning over her badass alter-ego.

    Finally, there's an established bond between a gamer, their ancestor, and their cross-scratch alternates. Can you really imagine any of the eight kids not thinking their alternates were anything short of awesome? They become exactly what they wish to be, or the wish to become exactly what they were.

    Meenah's not a good person and she's not a nice person. Even people who like everyone are forced to admit that she's a hard person to like. But she's not really the monster you're portraying her as. Close, but not quite.
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  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    One question: What genocide are we talking about with Meenah?

    She's always been hard to get along with, prone to threats and close to violence, but she the only time she's actually killed anyone that we know about was when she killed herself and her team to ensure they survived the scratch in some form. The only murders she's actually carried out were in fact a ploy to save their lives.

    If you're talking about her reaction to the Condesce, there are three things to keep in mind on that.

    First, she just woke up in the dream bubbles, as in literally the first thing she saw after the bright light was Roxy. She has not had the time to calm down and mature the way the others have.

    Second, whatever you may say about Condesce, she did what Meenah only dreamed she could do: she played by her own rules (until meeting the Handmaid), displayed dominance in both her homeworld and much of outer space (including at least two worlds in whole other universes), and is still out there dominating some corner of reality. Even if you leave out the genocides and regicides and other 'cides besides, Meenah would be swooning over her badass alter-ego.

    Finally, there's an established bond between a gamer, their ancestor, and their cross-scratch alternates. Can you really imagine any of the eight kids not thinking their alternates were anything short of awesome? They become exactly what they wish to be, or the wish to become exactly what they were.

    Meenah's not a good person and she's not a nice person. Even people who like everyone are forced to admit that she's a hard person to like. But she's not really the monster you're portraying her as. Close, but not quite.
    We know she didn't, it's just the utter adoration she displays is way more than just "wow, COOL!".

    When talking about genocidal and ominicidal events most other characters barely react. It's like "yeah, ok, fine." or something maybe one or two notches above it.

    This makes her reaction, euphoria to the point of being numb to everything going on around her, that much more pronounced. She doesn't just think the death and enslavement of all she sees would be cool, it's something that instantly grabbed onto her brain and ripped her out of current events to the point where a violent physical beating couldn't snap out of it.

    Meanwhile nobody else cares about any kind of mass death. Dave lived in a crowded city and he never once mentioned all the people he must've known who died horrible, painful deaths. Rose mentioned that there were people near her, but only in passing and with no real feeling. Jade was a fan of plenty of internet artists apparently, but never exactly paused to think that they might be dead, or at least might not be making content anymore.

    Meanwhile here's this fetishistic reaction of mind-numbing glee at having caused such events, on a level even Vriska didn't display. I mean Vriska smiled when it all came together but she never clapped her hands to her cheeks and blushed fervently, and for her Mindfang's bad deeds were literally her only adult influence.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    She doesn't just think the death and enslavement of all she sees would be cool, it's something that instantly grabbed onto her brain and ripped her out of current events to the point where a violent physical beating couldn't snap out of it.
    Who says it was the death and enslavement that got to her? Wouldn't it be more logical she's reacting over how her copy didn't need to listen to anybody and in fact made her own rules whenever she saw fit?
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Who says it was the death and enslavement that got to her? Wouldn't it be more logical she's reacting over how her copy didn't need to listen to anybody and in fact made her own rules whenever she saw fit?
    No, it doesn't. The more logical conclusion, given her initial introduction, description of her pre-death personality, and pretty much everything else shows how she is, it's entirely reasonable to assume that while the authority and independance has it's attraction, so does the violence and bloodshed in an at least equal amount.

    You're downplaying and outright ignoring all the cues to how bad she is. It's actually appalling how you've been doing it. She first tried to stab a girl to death on a whim, then got confirmed to be stabby and violent all the time, then once things start happening her first reaction is to find the guy causing trouble and kill him despite everyone else pointing out the insanity of it.

    She's crazy. She's violent. Mass Genocide is right up her alley and if she had a few thousand years of power it's very much likley she'd turn out like her counterpart.

    You can try changing words and making illogical assumptions as much as you want but we're using evidence and quotes from the actual story against you and you have nothing but headcannon to fight it with. This isn't an argument you're going to win simply because you have nothing substantial to fight with.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I'll admit that Meenah is a horrible person and would be scary in real life.

    But I like her as a character, and no-one will stop me from doing so.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Honestly, I don't get why people think a story having unrelatable characters is such a bad thing. John's life before SBURB was about as "normal" as they come. Rose lived in a remote area, Dave didn't go to school, Jade and Jake both lived on islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, Jane was the heiress of a worldwide empire, and Roxy and Dirk lived in the future where they were the only humans left. Every other character is an alien. They shouldn't be all that relatable.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    I'll admit that Meenah is a horrible person and would be scary in real life.

    But I like her as a character, and no-one will stop me from doing so.
    Oh, sure. I like Meenah too (more so as time goes on and we see her relatively positive traits).

    But there are a lot of total monsters that I like. I'm a huge fan of Zolf Kimblee, for example.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    No, it doesn't. The more logical conclusion, given her initial introduction, description of her pre-death personality, and pretty much everything else shows how she is, it's entirely reasonable to assume that while the authority and independance has it's attraction, so does the violence and bloodshed in an at least equal amount.

    You're downplaying and outright ignoring all the cues to how bad she is. It's actually appalling how you've been doing it. She first tried to stab a girl to death on a whim, then got confirmed to be stabby and violent all the time, then once things start happening her first reaction is to find the guy causing trouble and kill him despite everyone else pointing out the insanity of it.

    She's crazy. She's violent. Mass Genocide is right up her alley and if she had a few thousand years of power it's very much likley she'd turn out like her counterpart.

    You can try changing words and making illogical assumptions as much as you want but we're using evidence and quotes from the actual story against you and you have nothing but headcannon to fight it with. This isn't an argument you're going to win simply because you have nothing substantial to fight with.
    I'd personally say she reacted both to the apparent freedom the Condense had, and to the violence of Alteranian society. Meenah is a bad person. But I'm not sure the genocidal bit would have come out on Beforus, if only because she never had the opportunity. Basically, I'm arguing that some of her worst character traits didn't really surface during her life on Beforus, and that, combined with the general mellowing out most of the dead players experience, is why Latula, Porrim, and Kankri have been relatively friendly in their interactions with her. Which is what the objection that started this discussion was about, iirc.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-19 at 08:00 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #869
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Gamzee has killed two trolls for no reason, and Karkat let him live, even hugged him.

    Trolls being alien about they treat their murderous jerks is not a new thing.

    heck, they stomached Vriska's presence for who knows how long, even though they knew that she has killed thousands of trolls and their lusii by feeding them to her spider lusus.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    No, it doesn't. The more logical conclusion, given her initial introduction, description of her pre-death personality, and pretty much everything else shows how she is, it's entirely reasonable to assume that while the authority and independance has it's attraction, so does the violence and bloodshed in an at least equal amount.

    You're downplaying and outright ignoring all the cues to how bad she is. It's actually appalling how you've been doing it. She first tried to stab a girl to death on a whim, then got confirmed to be stabby and violent all the time, then once things start happening her first reaction is to find the guy causing trouble and kill him despite everyone else pointing out the insanity of it.

    She's crazy. She's violent. Mass Genocide is right up her alley and if she had a few thousand years of power it's very much likley she'd turn out like her counterpart.

    You can try changing words and making illogical assumptions as much as you want but we're using evidence and quotes from the actual story against you and you have nothing but headcannon to fight it with. This isn't an argument you're going to win simply because you have nothing substantial to fight with.


    Sooorrry for believing an alien isn't a horrible monster who wants to kill everybody while bathing in the blood of virgins just because she threw a stick at an immortal god, swooned over a copy of herself that has everything she ever wanted, and thought trying to defeat the guy who just butchered the dead themselves to avoid being similarly butchered herself would be a good idea?

    Sorry for looking past her faults and seeing the fun spunky punk-rocker chick with awesome hair and and a feel-good attitude?

    Sorry for realizing that in the Troll universe being violent or killing a few people does not equal being a horrible monster demon who has no good qualities whatsoever and only has an interest in murdering people and drinking their blood while violating their loved ones like everyone seems to be making her out to be?
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2012-09-19 at 09:53 PM.
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