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  1. - Top - End - #871
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Sorry for realizing that in the Troll universe being violent or killing a few people does not equal being a horrible monster demon who has no good qualities whatsoever and only has an interest in murdering people and drinking their blood while violating their loved ones like everyone seems to be making her out to be?
    Actually for Meenah: Yes. Yes it does. She seems to want to do those types of things. Let me repeat: The murder of 7 Billion humans makes her swoon. So stop acting so smug!

    You act like our headcannon is law, and its just common sense. And that Jango is an idiot.

    Its like if I said:

    "What? For realizing that Hussie has no idea how tone or character writing works? You stupid or something? "

    SHE IS NOT A FEEL-GOOD ROCKER CHICK. She is a nasty bitch that revels in mindless murder and has a psychopathic streek. It doesn't matter WHY. The main point is that she IS a murderous horrible nasty person.

    And I do agree with Jango on most things. When Dave fought Bro he was close enough to hear the dying screams of his neighbors and the exploding cars.

    The argument for the trolls acting allot more like aliens can be countered by:

    EVERYBODY acts like apathetic aliens. Which can meen that Hussie made his comic too light whilst talking about too dark subject matters (Which I think is exactly whats going on).

    Lets have reversed the situation:

    The players where the parents and it where the CHILDREN that died. Then they acted all apathetic (Maybe shocked for 10 mintes at most). It would be creepy as ****!

    Its an interesting headcannon we created. But everybody acts like aliens anyway.

    And yes I do hate peoples tendencies to reduce dark elements in Homestuck.

    Its so baffling! If I tried to stab you ONCE you would never talk to me again and prevent me from coming near you.

    Have any of you have friends that swoon at Hitler!

    Just because TROLLS accept this type of acting (We don't even know this. This is just an interesting headcannon) doesn't mean that WE should accept her.

    She is an awful person. Even by (our Headcannonical) troll standards. There is no reason to think she is a good person.

  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I think that the kids have grieved for the family members, well, apart from Jade. It's just that it hasn't been shown because that hasn't been the focus of the webcomic. The webcomic is about weird apocalyptic videogames and figuring out what the hell is happening.

    Scowling Dragon, I think you've come into the comic with the wrong expectations. Homestuck is about the weird random videogame adventures and stuff as well as funny chat logs.

    Just because it hasn't been shown that the kids grieved and have had the emotional issues doesn't mean they didn't happen. It can be assumed that they did have the emotional issues and such, but Hussie didn't show it because that's not the focus of the story. Homestuck is a mystery story, not a character drama. You complained that the scene with John being angry at Davesprite is goofy. That's because that's specifically the mood Hussie is aiming for. But it does prove that John is affected by his father's death.

    It's not that Hussie's a bad writer, it's just that you're looking for a different kind of story.

    As for how Meenah is a horrible person: yeah, probably. I still like her anyway, though.
    i am going to make it through this year
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  3. - Top - End - #873
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    I think that the kids have grieved for the family members, well, apart from Jade.
    Onscreen at worst....about 6 minutes MAX.

    The webcomic is about weird apocalyptic videogames and figuring out what the hell is happening.
    Feelings and emotions are part of that. Otherwise its just a spectacle comic that jingling keys in my face. On the likes of 2012 and Transformers.

    Scowling Dragon, I think you've come into the comic with the wrong expectations. Homestuck is about the weird random videogame adventures and stuff as well as funny chat logs.
    Then don't give me genocide. Don't give me gruesome murder, and don't try to develop the characters.

    Just because it hasn't been shown that the kids grieved and have had the emotional issues doesn't mean they didn't happen.
    John wen't back in time and killed president Lincoln with Dave. It just happened offscreen.

    edit:

    In fact John gained the ability to time travel, and shoot blasts of liquid chocolate. Its just offscreen.

    Homestuck is a mystery story, not a character drama.
    Then don't add the end of the world and gruesome murder. Then don't GIVE me character Drama. The last 500 updates where mostly character Drama. Don't give me character drama if its terrible.

    That's because that's specifically the mood Hussie is aiming for.
    Then he doesn't want me to care about the characters. If the comic, and the characters don't treat all the horrible things that are going on with any seriousness then I can't get invested. Why should I care about whats going on?

    If I don't care then its just a spectacle comic.

    It's not that Hussie's a bad writer, it's just that you're looking for a different kind of story.
    I beg to differ. I want a story where I care. If Hussie doesn't want me to care, and only care about the spectacle then at the very best he isn't a GOOD writer.

    As for how Meenah is a horrible person: yeah, probably. I still like her anyway, though.
    Sure fine.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-20 at 01:20 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Scowling Dragon is ...right on all counts, believe it or not.

    You can't say homestuck isn't about things that happen in the story repeatedly over years of storytelling to multiple characters. You also can't claim that major events like grieving for your dead family can happen entirely offscreen and have it be good storytelling.

    Homestuck is good at a lot of things, but in terms of characterization isn't not that great, lets be honest it isn't even good. It has cool animations and it's got interesting experimental art and it's cool to see Hussie basically rip into the fandom with the trolls(and lets be honest, a good deal of us are that stupid).

    But don't tell me it's this perfect story when it can objectivley be proven the writing is terrible at certain things. That isn't a fair and unbaised judgement of Homestuck's merits and flaws. That's knee-jerk reacting and it has no place in mature discussion.

    I like Homestuck, I've been reading it for years. I've been here since the trolls were new and I can remember a whole bunch of the stupid things we as a fandom have done and continue to do. I am not however going to bow down and worship a Hussie Idol and sacrifice a goat to Andrew's likeness.
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    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
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  5. - Top - End - #875
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I am not trying to excuse Homestuck's flaws, or explain them away.

    I am trying to say that if you walk into the comic with incorrect expectations, you will end up dissatisfied. Which may well end up in frothing rage on a thread on the internet.
    i am going to make it through this year
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    i am going to make it though this year
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  6. - Top - End - #876
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    I am not trying to excuse Homestuck's flaws, or explain them away.
    You kind of where. You said Hussie isn't a bad writer and I just need to tame my expectations. Then I pointed out that Hussie intentionally puts Drama in his comic. So he either doesn't know how to write drama, or doesn't know to keep it away from his material. Or both.

    I am trying to say that if you walk into the comic with incorrect expectations, you will end up dissatisfied. Which may well end up in frothing rage on a thread on the internet.
    Which is true. I can make good arguments unless Im stupidly mad. Which I tend to be most of the time.

  7. - Top - End - #877
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Onscreen at worst....about 6 minutes MAX.
    If the characters spend too long grieving, I'd get bored and depressed. I'd rather be watching awesome flashes then get depressed, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Feelings and emotions are part of that. Otherwise its just a spectacle comic that jingling keys in my face. On the likes of 2012 and Transformers.
    Homestuck's not trying to be dark and gloomy, but the sheer amount of arguing over various things indicated that it's a lot deeper than a spectacle comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Then don't give me genocide. Don't give me gruesome murder, and don't try to develop the characters.
    So there are no video games without genocide, gruesome murder, or character development?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    John wen't back in time and killed president Lincoln with Dave. It just happened offscreen.

    edit:

    In fact John gained the ability to time travel, and shoot blasts of liquid chocolate. Its just offscreen.
    Because that's totally on the same level as just skipping over grieving because it's not important to the story.
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  8. - Top - End - #878
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    When Dave fought Bro he was close enough to hear the dying screams of his neighbors and the exploding cars.
    Actually, because of the flames and the falling meteorites, he probably couldn't hear them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Onscreen at worst....about 6 minutes MAX.
    Again, I'd just like to say about this that I really disagree. Okay we're going to ignore Jade for the moment because her Grandfather died when she was so young that she had time to get over it when the game had started.

    We'll start with Rose and Dave - both had very visible reactions in the immediate aftermath of their parents' deaths. However, once that's over you assume that the grieving is over. I completely disagree. I would say that their basically suicidal tendencies came down to the fact that they had not (and quite probably have not, but we haven't checked in on them enough to be sure) come to terms with their parents' deaths. That's the most overt example I can think of, but there are others.

    To be clear - my point is that their grieving doesn't have to be "My parents are DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!" for it to be real and affect them. They don't have to preface every sentence with "Because bro died I will: " for their actions to motivated by that.

    As for John, he was also affected by his father's death - but was then immediately cut down by Jack. After that, we didn't really see too much of him for a while, but he seemed to be in a rage, judging from how he fought. Last year on the spaceship he was still John but there were still signs of the underlying rage left by his father's death and his inability to avenge him -elements which are made even clearer this year.

  9. - Top - End - #879
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Augmental View Post
    If the characters spend too long grieving, I'd get bored and depressed. I'd rather be watching awesome flashes then get depressed, thanks.
    So you just prefer spectacle. Thats fine. So my argument of Homestuck being a spectacle comic still stands.

    It would have if there wasn't a ton of drama in it anyway. The Drama is so out of place, cause it means that characters react more to relationships then they do to deaths of close ones, or death in general.

    Homestuck's not trying to be dark and gloomy, but the sheer amount of arguing over various things indicated that it's a lot deeper than a spectacle comic.
    Thats a poor argument and you know it.

    "The amount of people talking about Transformers 2 proves that its a deep and involving movie"

    So there are no video games without genocide, gruesome murder, or character development?
    Yes there are: But they treat the issues with GRAVITY. If there is genocide, people CARE. Its not just a background thing for impressive flash. And if it is skipped over the game gets panned for being insensitive and having a poor plot.

    Homestuck has earth being destroyed twice, genocide, and tons of deaths. None of them are treated with any gravity.

    Its like in 2012, where one of the ending lines in the movie is "No more pull ups"

    OHOHOHOHO! Oh Roland, that joke is fits in so well as we've seen BILLIONS of people die just 20 minutes before. Its just so appropriate for the situation!

    If you want to make a LIGHTHEARTED STORY, then DON'T fill it with gruesome ugliness. Otherwise the characters come off as robots!

    Because that's totally on the same level as just skipping over grieving because it's not important to the story.
    Cause as we all know, character development is vitally unimportant to stories. You can just SAY that a character is developed rather then SHOW that a character is developed. Its a tactic that Roland Emmirick and Micheal bay mastered YEARS ago. And their stories are ever more involving for these very reasons.

  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Meanwhile, I'm reading Homestuck for the neck-breaking mood whiplashes, the great animations, the absurd humor that zig-zags across several lines at once, and the hilarious, exaggerated characters who would otherwise be massively unlikable IRL.
    Whenever I want to read a story with realistic consequences and reactions, I look for another comic that doesn't feature juggalos as presidents, or bathtubs and toilets being moved where they shouldn't belong.
    Whenever I want to read a story with deep characters, I pick another comic where children can't possibly raise themselves from birth and avoid human contact.
    Whenever I want to think about the ambiguous morality of characters, I read another comic that doesn't feature Space Fish Hitler® and her alternate incarnation who's happy to learn she is Space Fish Hitler® in another world*.
    And whenever I want a plot that I actually understand without having to get help from the fandom, I, huh, read anything but Homestuck. Yeah.





    *No, I don't want to debate whether Meenah is most happy about the Condesce being cool, doing whatever she feels like doing without restraint like she's always wanted, or being Space Fish Hitler®. If you're trying to get my opinion on that matter in order to drag me into a heated debate, I warn you that I've got a life as well as important stuff to do, that I can walk away from the Internet any time I want, and you will be the only ones to blame yourselves for whatever comes next.
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  11. - Top - End - #881
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Actually, because of the flames and the falling meteorites, he probably couldn't hear them.
    OK, so hes just apathetic to people and life in general.

    Again, I'd just like to say about this that I really disagree. Okay we're going to ignore Jade for the moment because her Grandfather died when she was so young that she had time to get over it when the game had started.
    True. But she essentially KILLED Beck with so little as a "Il miss you so much". He was the ONLY creature that lived with her on the island for YEARS. Yet she doesn't even hesitate to essentially ERASE his personality. I know it was important to do, but im talking about her reactions.

    We'll start with Rose and Dave - both had very visible reactions in the immediate aftermath of their parents' deaths.
    Not really. Dave spent about 30 minutes tops next to his brother (Immediately followed by a joke). Rose reacted once, got angry when in Demon form and that was that. Rose was the person that had the closest to a realistic reaction in my opinion.

    I would say that their basically suicidal tendencies came down to the fact that they had not (and quite probably have not, but we haven't checked in on them enough to be sure) come to terms with their parents' deaths.
    That argument is debatable, but I chalk it up more to coincidence because they don't react to anything else at all. Because they are archetypes:

    Quiet well mannered girl and Cool Dude.

    And from what it seemed Rose was planning that anyway. Even befire her mothers death.

    To be clear - my point is that their grieving doesn't have to be "My parents are DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!" for it to be real and affect them.
    I get that, but that NONE of them react to ANYTHING thats going on supports realistic human emotion at all. Because of that Im more likely to say:

    "There ARE no good reactions" rather then "There are a few good reactions, but we just never see them"

    As for John, he was also affected by his father's death - but was then immediately cut down by Jack.
    That one I will give to you.

    After that, we didn't really see too much of him for a while, but he seemed to be in a rage, judging from how he fought.
    No there wasn't. Unless you say "Goofy grin TM" was rage.

    Last year on the spaceship he was still John but there were still signs of the underlying rage
    You mean "Mild irritation caused by constant confines in a small area"

    -elements which are made even clearer this year.
    All horribly handled. Its treated more like a JOKE, that hes mad. If the STORY treats it like a joke then I will treat it like a joke.

    If its a JOKE then its a BAD JOKE.

  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Err... Immersing yourself deeply in a game/work/whatever is a common response to grief- You put off having to deal with things by making yourself so busy you don't have time to think about what you've lost.

  13. - Top - End - #883
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I can't do this. I can't argue against 5 VS 1 odds. Its too exhausting.

  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Fair enough. I'm not saying you don't have a point, I'm just saying that there is more than one way of expressing grief, and just because the kids didn't react one specific way doesn't mean Hussie didn't consider how their grief might have effected them during the writing.

  15. - Top - End - #885
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    No, it doesn't. The more logical conclusion, given her initial introduction, description of her pre-death personality, and pretty much everything else shows how she is, it's entirely reasonable to assume that while the authority and independance has it's attraction, so does the violence and bloodshed in an at least equal amount.

    You're downplaying and outright ignoring all the cues to how bad she is. It's actually appalling how you've been doing it. She first tried to stab a girl to death on a whim, then got confirmed to be stabby and violent all the time, then once things start happening her first reaction is to find the guy causing trouble and kill him despite everyone else pointing out the insanity of it.

    She's crazy. She's violent. Mass Genocide is right up her alley and if she had a few thousand years of power it's very much likley she'd turn out like her counterpart.

    You can try changing words and making illogical assumptions as much as you want but we're using evidence and quotes from the actual story against you and you have nothing but headcannon to fight it with. This isn't an argument you're going to win simply because you have nothing substantial to fight with.
    Sorry I didn't respond to this last night, but I have to make a few comments on this.

    First: Meenah chose to exile herself to the moon because she was not willing to play the good little princess role. Before any of the violence, before the scratch-evading massacre, before anything else about her, she did not like to be bound to other people's rules. So, no, adoring her alternate for being a self-defined domineering tyrant is not less valid than adoring her alternate for being an unrepentant mass murderer. Both are valid ways of interpreting what we've seen thus far.

    Second: I don't think anyone here is saying she's a good person. I don't think anyone here is even arguing that she's neutral, and there's people who will argue that about Belkar. Meenah is the Beforus equivalent of Eridan - an unrepentant, repulsive jackass who I doubt anyone was glad to see involved in the game. The only difference is that Meenah proved a critical asset to her team while Eridan seemed to do nothing but hurt his own side. There is, however, a wide variety of evils ranging from generic Jack (Spades Slick, not Sovereign Slayer) to Lord English. My argument is that she could be seen to be on the Jack side of that range, and that refuting any but the most negative interpretation possible is not being intellectually honest, either.

    Finally, don't use Alternian troll logic for Beforus trolls - they're completely different animals evolved from the same source: the hemospectrum and the obvious inequalities inherent in it. Alternian trolls think of lower bloods as cattle, Beforus trolls think of lower bloods as handicapped (mentally as well as physically). Both are demeaning, but one excuses subjugating them while the other requires patronizing them.

    By Alternian standards, the trolls who committed actual "murder" were Eridan (against Feferi), Kanaya (Eridan), and Terezi (Vriska). Everything else was against lower bloods, and thus culturally acceptable.
    Last edited by Calemyr; 2012-09-20 at 09:30 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #886
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Personally, I'm going to have to say that I suspect that Meenah found both elements of the Condesce appealing. And it's quite possible she didn't try to resist being made empress through violence simply because she didn't think she could do so and succeed.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-09-20 at 11:14 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #887
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    To be honest, re the Meenah thing, the first impression I had of her was that she was a murderous psycho-queen, but that has been undermined throughout the flash games. Now I'm less sure what to think.

  18. - Top - End - #888
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I beleive i have the awnser to this whole Meenah situaition, summed up four words from the Girl herself.

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    Avy by Thormag
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Alright, so moving on from the Meenah conversation, the flash had two things that interested me.

    First of all, it confirmed that trolls can have 'sex' for pleasure. Porrim and Aranea had, "A red fling." Which usually means sex.

    Second, one of the rebubble messages said that if you get everyone in the afterlife to follow you, Horrorterrors resurrect you back to life. Maybe not a serious thing, but something fun to think about.

    Maybe that's why the Horrorterrors are being killed? Because they're so powerful they can bring the dead back to life?

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Sorry I didn't respond to this last night, but I have to make a few comments on this.

    First: Meenah chose to exile herself to the moon because she was not willing to play the good little princess role. Before any of the violence, before the scratch-evading massacre, before anything else about her, she did not like to be bound to other people's rules. So, no, adoring her alternate for being a self-defined domineering tyrant is not less valid than adoring her alternate for being an unrepentant mass murderer. Both are valid ways of interpreting what we've seen thus far.

    Second: I don't think anyone here is saying she's a good person. I don't think anyone here is even arguing that she's neutral, and there's people who will argue that about Belkar. Meenah is the Beforus equivalent of Eridan - an unrepentant, repulsive jackass who I doubt anyone was glad to see involved in the game. The only difference is that Meenah proved a critical asset to her team while Eridan seemed to do nothing but hurt his own side. There is, however, a wide variety of evils ranging from generic Jack (Spades Slick, not Sovereign Slayer) to Lord English. My argument is that she could be seen to be on the Jack side of that range, and that refuting any but the most negative interpretation possible is not being intellectually honest, either.

    Finally, don't use Alternian troll logic for Beforus trolls - they're completely different animals evolved from the same source: the hemospectrum and the obvious inequalities inherent in it. Alternian trolls think of lower bloods as cattle, Beforus trolls think of lower bloods as handicapped (mentally as well as physically). Both are demeaning, but one excuses subjugating them while the other requires patronizing them.

    By Alternian standards, the trolls who committed actual "murder" were Eridan (against Feferi), Kanaya (Eridan), and Terezi (Vriska). Everything else was against lower bloods, and thus culturally acceptable.
    ok, let me deal with these points one by one.

    -I never said both aspects didn't appeal. Hell, I said the appeal would be more or less equal. I'm not going to say one has no appeal because that'd be riduiculous. I am however saying that both are going to appeal. This is something that's right there in the text you quoted.

    As well, if both opinions were equally valid we couldn't be having this argument. Interpretations can be more or less valid than one another depending on circumstances surrounding the work.

    -The Jack Noir/Soverign Slayer divide is more or less to do with what kind of power they can actually access. I mean they both started as basically the same guy in the same situations. The very limited amount of time in the actual game they interacted with players might have affected things but you can't really say Spades wouldn't just be another Soverign Slayer if you plopped the ring on his finger at the same point in the session, because they're alternates of the exact same guy. This range isn't moral so much as a question of how much power the character in question has. As well, in terms of actually benefitting their own team Meenah probably comes out way behind Eridan, simply because he used his ultimate weapon to help Vriska and Feferi for years until the session started and basically kept them all alive, even if his motives were far from pure.

    -Thirdly, in the context of the Hemospectrum, assuming troll biology works the same on both worlds, they are inferior. Blood color isn't a cosmetic difference, it affects who you are on the most fundamental level. Feferi and Aradia wouldn't be equal. Without God Tiering and with no social advantages, one is basically immortal while the other dies long before thirty human years. This means they get more experience and learning down. Assuming no mutations this means one is superior to an insane degree. Even if this is by far the most extreme example, the fact exists that built right into their biology are reasons one troll is better than the other. Compared to the high bloods, the low bloods are handicapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Boop doop gunna peek into this thread about my favorite webcomic and oh my God everyone is arguing and fighting and I disagree with their views on a silly webcomic! Obviously, it's now time for me to contribute to the internet yelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Again Meenah is the exception in much the same way Feferi is, they both act opposite of what their culture actually is, and would fit in much better in one another's place. And for the record, we know nothing about prescratch Alternia's Culture other then that it's caste system was reversed, and even then you can't call it a happy and loving place, they still had lusi, likely still had kismisi, and whether she liked it or not, Had Meenah not run away, she would have been forced to tend to and take care of the lower castes against her will. I would hardly call any society that tells you "You ARE going to do this. no i don't care if you don't want to do it your gunna do it anyways" "Happy sweet and kind", sounds just as bad as the newer version if you ask me, the roles have simply been reversed so the majority vote has a higher opinion of it.

    And I’m sorry,. she's violent, sociopath, and amoral how exactly? Outside of that one example of wanting to poke the weird alien girl i have seen nothing of the sort. At BEST I’d say she's selfish, greedy, and a little crude. Hardly a violent amoral sociopath.

    One case of wanting to poke and alien and one case of fangasming over an alternate of herself that got to do whatever she wanted without anyone bossing her around does not a violent amoral sociopath make.
    Poke=Stabbing to death, pal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Sooorrry for believing an alien isn't a horrible monster who wants to kill everybody while bathing in the blood of virgins just because she threw a stick at an immortal god, swooned over a copy of herself that has everything she ever wanted, and thought trying to defeat the guy who just butchered the dead themselves to avoid being similarly butchered herself would be a good idea?

    Sorry for looking past her faults and seeing the fun spunky punk-rocker chick with awesome hair and and a feel-good attitude?

    Sorry for realizing that in the Troll universe being violent or killing a few people does not equal being a horrible monster demon who has no good qualities whatsoever and only has an interest in murdering people and drinking their blood while violating their loved ones like everyone seems to be making her out to be?
    Who likes to stab people to death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Yarrrrrrrrr
    Gunna agree with Shadow. You are totally looking for a different webcomic, mate. If you really hate it so much, stop reading it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    Scowling Dragon is ...right on all counts, believe it or not.

    You can't say homestuck isn't about things that happen in the story repeatedly over years of storytelling to multiple characters. You also can't claim that major events like grieving for your dead family can happen entirely offscreen and have it be good storytelling.

    Homestuck is good at a lot of things, but in terms of characterization isn't not that great, lets be honest it isn't even good. It has cool animations and it's got interesting experimental art and it's cool to see Hussie basically rip into the fandom with the trolls(and lets be honest, a good deal of us are that stupid).

    But don't tell me it's this perfect story when it can objectivley be proven the writing is terrible at certain things. That isn't a fair and unbaised judgement of Homestuck's merits and flaws. That's knee-jerk reacting and it has no place in mature discussion.

    I like Homestuck, I've been reading it for years. I've been here since the trolls were new and I can remember a whole bunch of the stupid things we as a fandom have done and continue to do. I am not however going to bow down and worship a Hussie Idol and sacrifice a goat to Andrew's likeness.
    Hussie isn't perfect. But he's good, in my opinion. I, personally, love his work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    You kind of where. You said Hussie isn't a bad writer and I just need to tame my expectations. Then I pointed out that Hussie intentionally puts Drama in his comic. So he either doesn't know how to write drama, or doesn't know to keep it away from his material. Or both.


    Which is true. I can make good arguments unless Im stupidly mad. Which I tend to be most of the time.
    Were, not where, friend. Hussie said Homestuck is an experiment of sorts, mixing up all sorts of genres. Again, I think you're looking for something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    So you just prefer spectacle. Thats fine. So my argument of Homestuck being a spectacle comic still stands.

    It would have if there wasn't a ton of drama in it anyway. The Drama is so out of place, cause it means that characters react more to relationships then they do to deaths of close ones, or death in general.



    Thats a poor argument and you know it.

    "The amount of people talking about Transformers 2 proves that its a deep and involving movie"



    Yes there are: But they treat the issues with GRAVITY. If there is genocide, people CARE. Its not just a background thing for impressive flash. And if it is skipped over the game gets panned for being insensitive and having a poor plot.

    Homestuck has earth being destroyed twice, genocide, and tons of deaths. None of them are treated with any gravity.

    Its like in 2012, where one of the ending lines in the movie is "No more pull ups"

    OHOHOHOHO! Oh Roland, that joke is fits in so well as we've seen BILLIONS of people die just 20 minutes before. Its just so appropriate for the situation!

    If you want to make a LIGHTHEARTED STORY, then DON'T fill it with gruesome ugliness. Otherwise the characters come off as robots!



    Cause as we all know, character development is vitally unimportant to stories. You can just SAY that a character is developed rather then SHOW that a character is developed. Its a tactic that Roland Emmirick and Micheal bay mastered YEARS ago. And their stories are ever more involving for these very reasons.
    Look, mate, if you're going to pretend to John, at least get his quirks right. Again, I totally think you're looking for a different sort of webcomic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    I beleive i have the awnser to this whole Meenah situaition, summed up four words from the Girl herself.

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    Yeah, I think that sums up her attitude pretty well.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Tectonic Robot View Post
    Boop doop gunna peek into this thread about my favorite webcomic and oh my God everyone is arguing and fighting and I disagree with their views on a silly webcomic! Obviously, it's now time for me to contribute to the internet yelling. -snip-

    Look, mate, if you're going to pretend to John, at least get his quirks right. Again, I totally think you're looking for a different sort of webcomic.
    I'm not going to add to the big Meenah argument, but I'll just note that I believe that was the gradually spreading blue for sarcasm, not a John impression.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    ok, let me deal with these points one by one.

    -I never said both aspects didn't appeal. Hell, I said the appeal would be more or less equal. I'm not going to say one has no appeal because that'd be riduiculous. I am however saying that both are going to appeal. This is something that's right there in the text you quoted.

    As well, if both opinions were equally valid we couldn't be having this argument. Interpretations can be more or less valid than one another depending on circumstances surrounding the work.

    -The Jack Noir/Soverign Slayer divide is more or less to do with what kind of power they can actually access. I mean they both started as basically the same guy in the same situations. The very limited amount of time in the actual game they interacted with players might have affected things but you can't really say Spades wouldn't just be another Soverign Slayer if you plopped the ring on his finger at the same point in the session, because they're alternates of the exact same guy. This range isn't moral so much as a question of how much power the character in question has. As well, in terms of actually benefitting their own team Meenah probably comes out way behind Eridan, simply because he used his ultimate weapon to help Vriska and Feferi for years until the session started and basically kept them all alive, even if his motives were far from pure.

    -Thirdly, in the context of the Hemospectrum, assuming troll biology works the same on both worlds, they are inferior. Blood color isn't a cosmetic difference, it affects who you are on the most fundamental level. Feferi and Aradia wouldn't be equal. Without God Tiering and with no social advantages, one is basically immortal while the other dies long before thirty human years. This means they get more experience and learning down. Assuming no mutations this means one is superior to an insane degree. Even if this is by far the most extreme example, the fact exists that built right into their biology are reasons one troll is better than the other. Compared to the high bloods, the low bloods are handicapped.
    So on points 1 and 3 we have no real disagreement, though most of 1 was less directed at you than just a statement inspired by your post and I did note the "obvious inequalities inherent in" the hemospectrum. The point is that the two cultures took that single seed and evolved it to two very different outcomes.

    As for point 2, that's a bit of a sticking point. I was using their behavior as a benchmark, not their potential. Would Slick have become the Slayer if he'd gotten the ring? Maybe. Would Slayer or Condesce!Jack team up with humans based on their blood color? Doubtful.

    The point is, they didn't. Slick became an unlikely (albeit stab-happy) ally who in the end didn't seem to hold his exile against Karkat at the end of the Midnight Crew interemission, and in fact seem pleased to see him on the monitor. Slayer became an immortal killing machine that felt that killing everything in one world (or even two) just wasn't enough. Same potential, very different outcomes. Just because Mindfang was a murderous pirate (who forced her jury to tear her arresting justicar to shreds while she killed the judge) doesn't make Aranea evil, despite having the same potential.

    So who would you use as the exemplar of innocuous evil, if not Slick?
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    As for point 2, that's a bit of a sticking point. I was using their behavior as a benchmark, not their potential. Would Slick have become the Slayer if he'd gotten the ring? Maybe. Would Slayer or Condesce!Jack team up with humans based on their blood color? Doubtful.

    The point is, they didn't. Slick became an unlikely (albeit stab-happy) ally who in the end didn't seem to hold his exile against Karkat at the end of the Midnight Crew interemission, and in fact seem pleased to see him on the monitor. Slayer became an immortal killing machine that felt that killing everything in one world (or even two) just wasn't enough. Same potential, very different outcomes. Just because Mindfang was a murderous pirate (who forced her jury to tear her arresting justicar to shreds while she killed the judge) doesn't make Aranea evil, despite having the same potential.

    So who would you use as the exemplar of innocuous evil, if not Slick?
    In this particular case, I wouldn't really compare Slick to Mindfang. Slick in general never really gets the same opportunities and behaves reasonably consistently(remember Slick DOES stab people trying to help him). He's a game construct who's diversions happen post-maturity(since he's pretty much created as a fully functioning adult) with the deciding factors appearing early on.

    As well, not every single leaning a person has to being a certain way is equal, and they *can* reject it. I mean that's the thing. Meenah DIDN'T. She clearly loves the idea of being a violent jerk, so does the Empress. Feferi is the one making the conscious effort to be different.

    In terms of innocuous evil, I'd honestly put Eridan. He's vile and there's no getting around that, but most of his killings ended with a constructive goal of keeping Vriska and Feferi assisted in terms of feedings. In terms of actual body count and reasons for killing teammates he's below Vriska or Gamzee and in terms of ferocity he's honestly way below Slick(The only death that "stuck" was Feferi, who was stupid enough to try to run into melee range against a guy with a ranged weapon).
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Flash update, yo.

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    From the top: the new ancestors we've seen have been hit and miss.

    Cronus is pretty much Eridan turned up to 11. I'm amazed that Hussie managed to make him be an even bigger douchebag. That's skill.

    Mituna is...difficult. Apparently he's got some serious brain damage from going all psychic freak out...which I'm inclined to think was the responsibility of...

    Kurloz. As a Gamzee fan, hell gorram yes. Apparently he's kind of scary according to my friend? Iunno. All I know is that I like him and the character development we got with Gamzee here.

    And finally, Meulin: Meulin is basically Nepeta except part deaf and more outgoing. That's not a criticism, because Nepeta is hella awesome.

    Karkat had some interesting development here, as did Terezi, and Meenah. All in all, a good flash.

    Also, this flash has shown: Meenah, while fangirling her other self for being an evil genocidal empress, is still far more pleasant than a lot of the other trolls. I'm looking at you, Cronus, and you, Kurloz.

    I also now completely agree with the Karmeenah ship.
    Last edited by Shadow of the Sun; 2012-09-24 at 02:40 AM.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    Flash update, yo.

    Spoiler
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    From the top: the new ancestors we've seen have been hit and miss.

    Cronus is pretty much Eridan turned up to 11. I'm amazed that Hussie managed to make him be an even bigger douchebag. That's skill.

    Mituna is...difficult. Apparently he's got some serious brain damage from going all psychic freak out...which I'm inclined to think was the responsibility of...

    Kurloz. As a Gamzee fan, hell gorram yes. Apparently he's kind of scary according to my friend? Iunno. All I know is that I like him and the character development we got with Gamzee here.

    And finally, Meulin: Meulin is basically Nepeta except part deaf and more outgoing. That's not a criticism, because Nepeta is hella awesome.

    Karkat had some interesting development here, as did Terezi, and Meenah. All in all, a good flash.

    Also, this flash has shown: Meenah, while fangirling her other self for being an evil genocidal empress, is still far more pleasant than a lot of the other trolls. I'm looking at you, Cronus, and you, Kurloz.
    Spoiler
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    Cronus is a take on an entirely different kind of idiot from Eridan. Eridan is meant to be a bit of a mocking on the introverted "friendzone" kind of guy who just kind of keeps his problems bottled until he cracks. Cronus on the other hand seems to be more of a take on the "Guido" subculture. The kind of crude, overly done up, dubstep loving idiot who can't take a hint.

    Mituna is ...pretty blatantly a mocking of 4chan culture. His speech is arranged in the same format as a 4chan reply post and is a bit of a way at poking fun at 4chan's kneejerk overreaction problem.

    Kurloz is quite possibly the scariest player. Heck, even I'm a little put off by him. He's a clown with his mouth sewn shut, who never talks, in a skeleton suit. Before you learn anything else about him that's one hell of a first impression.

    Meulin is like Nepeta only actually successful. She can apparently work actual romantic miracles, and had an actual relationship. I'd say though I like Nepeta more simply because of her interactions with Equiuus. Kurloz's thing doesn't really work for me as a relationship.

    I love Karkat and Terezi's relationship in this flash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I don't care what you feel.
    That pretty much sums up the Jayngfet experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    something something Jayngfet experience.

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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    If you want to see how terrifying Kurloz is:

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    Use Meenah to become Meulin.
    Use Meulin to use the bubble on the southern lily pad, which will get you a treasure.
    Talk to Kurloz as Meulin, give Kurloz the treasure.
    Take Kurloz to the northern bubble and walk into the door.
    Head south.
    Have nightmares.

    Also, apparently, Kurloz is now mute because the last noise he made was what deafened Meulin.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

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    I love Kurloz. I love Gamzee, too. All those chucklevoodoos is awesome.

    As for Meulin being more successful, that might be in part due to her being more outgoing, and well, she has THE MAGICS.

    Mituna is pretty much that, yes, but he's still a difficult character.

    Karkat's "STFU you're awesome" talk to Terezi was sweet. Also, we have DaveTerezi confirmed. Swanky.

    Cronos is just a douchebag Harry Potter. True facts. That said, the music you get when you're being him is awesome.


    Just found an Easter Egg.

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    You can have Hussie go on a date with Cronus.
    Last edited by Shadow of the Sun; 2012-09-24 at 02:56 AM.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

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    Didn't know I could appreciate Karkat and Terezi even more than I did.
    I like those new Beforian trolls (except Mituna, but everybody hates Mituna anyway). So many things wrong with Cronus it's hilarious.
    Not sure why, but I appreciate Meenah a little more, too (even though my actual opinion on her hasn't changed, she's still several kinds of evil). I suppose it's because she doomed herself to have to deal with insufferable teenagers for several eternities. *shudders*

    So, all in all, very good update. Plus Kurloz. If you have not been Kurloz yet, just DO what Calemyr said.
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    Default Re: MS Paint Adventures 6:12

    I've been Kurloz before I actually talked to him with Meenah and then didn't get the chance to do it later.

    Have I missed something great and should replay everything? :/

    To be clear: I did the be-Kurloz thing you guys are talking about but I skipped the "converation" between him and Meenah.

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