MS Paint Adventures 6:12

[Scowling Dragon]

Point is the universe acts however the **** it wants too. Logic or consistency be dammed.

Thats even how timetravel works. Only a single linear path works.

So whatever happens its just going to be fate. So it happens because "Why not? Thats how it will happen I guess".

[Squark]

Can you link where Scratch said that?


Also, again, you saying that doesn't negate the obvious timeline issues: The scratch was supposed to clean things entirely. John was never supposed to have existed post scratch at all. His actions still being what did things doesn't work. Because logically, someone can't come from a place that never existed and punch in DNA from locations that never existed and have everything work out properly. Time travel really doesn't work that way unless I'm missing something.

Link

Also, there's a compilation of Word of God statements on the MSPA forums which confirms that the B2 kids were born in the B1 session, although it doesn't have a link to the statement, frustratingly.

[Androgeus]

I think this (and the next page or so) may be the in universe explanation for the time swapping of ancestors or whatever you want to call it. But I'm too lazy to actually read the dialoguelog to confirm.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I think this (and the next page or so) may be the in universe explanation for the time swapping of ancestors or whatever you want to call it. But I'm too lazy to actually read the dialoguelog to confirm.

This link has pictures!

[Scowling Dragon]

This link has pictures!

Here is the question though:

If Universe Green has been erased from history, where did universe red babies come from?

[Sipex]

This is all assuming that Hussie has a similar idea on how all this time stuff should work which matches up with our ideas...which, really, he probably doesn't. He's got his own idea of how he wants it to work and so we're just going to have to live with it because that's how it's going to be written.

[Cavelcade]

The event was still recorded in paradox space so, while within the session, everything has changed, in terms of the overall universe/multiverse/whatever, the original timeline is still there.

We view it from this point of view.

I think.

[Scowling Dragon]

This is all assuming that Hussie has a similar idea on how all this time stuff should work which matches up with our ideas...which, really, he probably doesn't. He's got his own idea of how he wants it to work and so we're just going to have to live with it because that's how it's going to be written.

Exactly what I said before. It works however Hussie wants it to work. Not because of some amazing set of rules.

[The_Final_Stand]

The babies never came from Universe Green. They came from the session that Universe Green spawned. This session has ceased to exist, as has Universe Green, but they did, in fact, exist at one point in time. And the fact that Universe Green has ceased to exist has nothing to do with the Scratch as it does with the fact that the Genesis Frog was ripped apart by Jack's Red Miles. Equally, Universe Red has ceased to exist, for the same reason.

I always saw it more as the Scratch simply created another instance of the universe inside the Genesis Frog that Team Troll created, rather than actually overwriting it. PM, for instance. In the moments before Earth was destroyed by Jack's Red Miles, there was no sign of any sort of Scratch-like phenomena.

Because I like programming, I'm going to (try to) explain it with classes. The Genesis Frog is a Class. It provides a template for objects, but each actual object may be different depending on the variables passed to them during construction. The instances of the universes, B1 and B2, Universe Green and Universe Red, call them what you will, are Objects. Both of them exist, and both contain similarities, owing to having been created from the same template, but they are still different.

In this extended programming based metaphor, the meteors carrying the infant players are still the same variables being passed to the objects, but they are in different positions. It's the difference between calling Loc(x,y) and calling Loc(y,x).

Does this make more or less sense?

[Scowling Dragon]

The babies never came from Universe Green. They came from the session that Universe Green spawned. This session has ceased to exist, as has Universe Green, but they did, in fact, exist at one point in time.

No. Im pretty sure they said something about being erased from existence.

Otherwise the Scratch is just a very big bomb. And since they already have one of those its kind of redundant.

And I atribute the things you pointed out to just poor plot development. Like how do you destroy a universe?

Does it erase it from time? Well no since there IS a set point in time where things get sploded. Well its not related to the ACTUAL age of the universe cause the fwoggy is only roughly a month or two old.

If each version of the universe exist inside the frog are they just backup universes or something? Do they exist/ not exist at the same time? I mean this in the sense that there would logically be other infinite universes where the genesis frog from WASN'T destroyed.... Then wouldn't jack be assaulted by infinite "Good" creatures that followed him all at the same time to stop him destroying the universe?....This is confusing.

[Squark]

The B1 session has sort of gone caput, but things that left it (Jack, the kids, their planets, sprites, and consorts, and there are probably a number of doomed timeline versions of them still floating around the afterlife, if a doomed Terezi's shirt is anything to go by) still exist. I guess the best analogy I have is this; Even if the hospital where I was born is demolished, I was still born there, after all. The B1 session itself no longer exists, but it wasn't erased from the timeline.

[Anarion]

Here is the question though:

If Universe Green has been erased from history, where did universe red babies come from?

The B1 session has sort of gone caput, but things that left it (Jack, the kids, their planets, sprites, and consorts, and there are probably a number of doomed timeline versions of them still floating around the afterlife, if a doomed Terezi's shirt is anything to go by) still exist. I guess the best analogy I have is this; Even if the hospital where I was born is demolished, I was still born there, after all. The B1 session itself no longer exists, but it wasn't erased from the timeline.

Expanding on this, the idea seems to be that sessions of sburb all exist within the same broader universe connected to the outer ring and able to be traversed with sufficient power or technology (given that we have both troll meteor and Jade's ship going from session to session). So, a scratch destroys the localized area of a sburb session, i.e. that session's copy of skaia, prospite, derse, and any planets present. But it doesn't negate everything that happened in that session prior to the scratch.

The scratch also, separately, creates an entirely new copy of the universe from which the session was spawned, albeit with some modifications that supposedly make the inhabitants of the new universe more suited to playing sburb than were the players that initiated the scratch.

What's critical is distinguishing the timeline in a session from the timeline in a regular universe. Yes, they're connected via dream selves in some manner, but the alpha timeline of the session is absolute and things that happen there can't be removed once they have happened.

[Sipex]

You know, I've wondered. Is it possible to scratch a scratched session?

The general impression I'm getting is 'no' but it's never been explained why. I wonder if we'll ever find out?

[Scowling Dragon]

OK so even without the universe being erased:

When did the portals leading to the alternate universe come into existence?

If it was during the session then that means that the portals never went to the original session, thus preventing any of the original children from ectobiologicaly create themselves in the first place!

[Jayngfet]

Here is the question though:

If Universe Green has been erased from history, where did universe red babies come from?

...You know what?

I'm gonna explain it with a line taken from a much, much older webcomic.

"I HATE Time Travel."

[The_Final_Stand]

And I atribute the things you pointed out to just poor plot development. Like how do you destroy a universe?

Rewatch Cascade. See that ultra deadly red stuff that Jack shot out of his hand? That's how you kill a universe.

Does it erase it from time? Well no since there IS a set point in time where things get sploded. Well its not related to the ACTUAL age of the universe cause the fwoggy is only roughly a month or two old.

I'm not sure on that. I think that again, maybe once the template dies, the things that are built from the template die as well?

Maybe because the template gets ripped apart by The Miles, so too do all the instances of the universe? (actual speculation, not rhetorical)

Again, the Frog itself is not the universe. It is not B1 or B2. Let's say it's just B. B1 and B2 are built from B, but are separate from it.
See also this page.

If each version of the universe exist inside the frog are they just backup universes or something? Do they exist/ not exist at the same time?

I guess you could look at it that way, yes. Yes, they do exist at the same time. Sort of. It's how Jade and Jake, despite existing in separate universe instances, were able to collaborate on the Uberbunny.

I mean this in the sense that there would logically be other infinite universes where the genesis frog from WASN'T destroyed.... Then wouldn't jack be assaulted by infinite "Good" creatures that followed him all at the same time to stop him destroying the universe?

Here's where you may well be wrong. Why would there be infinite universes? Just because an infinite number could be created, doesn't mean that an infinite number will. Why create so many instances if none of them will help to bear fruit? Besides, how would these people even get to Jack to stop him?

This is a time travel thing too. If they stop Jack from destroying the Frog, why did they set out in the first place? There would be no need to set out, since Jack was stopped. However, if no one sets out, then no one can stop Jack. And so on, ad infinitum.

Ignoring the fact that Jack destroying the Frog was quite clearly required by the entirety of existence, since if he didn't, then the Green Sun could never have come to exist. And that thing is kinda important. Really, the events leading to its creation are essentially a formality. It is already here.

OK so even without the universe being erased:

When did the portals leading to the alternate universe come into existence?

If it was during the session then that means that the portals never went to the original session, thus preventing any of the original children from ectobiologicaly create themselves in the first place!

The portals cloned them. The babies and their toys were sent to both B1 and B2. The Scratch is a huge release of temporal energy. A little bit of cloning is probably well within its bounds.

This is confusing.

Yep. I have spent way too long thinking about this.

[Scowling Dragon]

The Scratch is a huge release of temporal energy.

Aka: SPACE ENERGY

This made me giggle. This is so unnecessaraly convoluted (See the underlined bit). Homestuck IS about a crazy and creative universe, but there is stuff that just adds NOTHING and takes away quite a bit. Like the destruction of the earth. Or the universes.

Keep them intact and we loose nothing, but suddenly the characters act less like sociopaths. And if we lets say....say that they can still talk to people online will make their actions make even more sense. They are still in alien environments and they can never go home again, but the effect is lessened as they still talk to people online. Suddenly BAM I would have never had those 3000 pages worth of explanation of why the kids acts like crazy people.

[LoneStarNorth]

Didn't you quit Homestuck, Scowling Dragon?

[Scowling Dragon]

Its incredibly hard to quit a webcomic unless its boring as even negative things can garner a reaction and lots of thought.

[Lord Raziere]

Update:

Spoiler

Show

oh no, looks like Jane is going to get a talk from Caliborn...

[Fayd]

Aka: SPACE ENERGY

Well, technically time energy, which I suppose given the interwoven nature of space and time means that you are correct in a sense, but it might be more intuitive to think about it as Time Energy. Though it might just be best to think of it as just energy. An agent of change. (And it is an agent to change time, so therefore temporal energy is somewhat apropos). It gives Skaia the juice to swap the portal destinations, resetting one of the B universes partially and the B instance completely. (It is implied that each Genesis Frog houses multiple universes, not just taking into account different instances).

And the destruction of the universe adds to the story. It adds weight. It adds consequence. It raises stakes. We aren't dealing with a sociopath with murder on the mind, we're dealing with someone who is literally killing an untold number of universes. And he's minor in comparison to the ultimate big bad of the comic. It gives the story a sense of scale, of knowing why English is a threat without having it be explicitly stated.

The other thing is that events that take place outside of a universe but affect it HAVE to happen, because they've always happened from the perspective of that universe. If we have multiple separate universes interacting with each other, it totally takes free choice out of the equation because time has to take a specific path or the facts as observed from the universe it affects have to happen. Essentially, due to Caliborn's meddling, everyone is stuck in a stable time loop until they can somehow exit it.

[Jayngfet]

And the destruction of the universe adds to the story. It adds weight. It adds consequence. It raises stakes. We aren't dealing with a sociopath with murder on the mind, we're dealing with someone who is literally killing an untold number of universes. And he's minor in comparison to the ultimate big bad of the comic. It gives the story a sense of scale, of knowing why English is a threat without having it be explicitly stated.

Yes, but as stated, the weight is badly handled. Destroying the universe is too much weight at this point, when you've already gone ahead and destroyed the world and have planet cracking scale character going all over the place. The scale is too big to actually resonate. I'm not 100% with the way the earth being destroyed was handled, but it felt like it at least had an effect. The Vast Glub was far reaching, but the galactic scale of Alternia's empire and the way it's portrayed kinda let me accept that.

But really, universes is just silly. The power level at that point doesn't raise the stakes so much as just kind of make it slide into self parody. It's like Dragonball Z. ONE planet getting blown up was engaging if badly handled. Blowing up another was similar. Once everyone got double and triple and eventually 4x times that and could move fast enough to cross the globe in a lunch break, it was just plain stupid.



Let me make this absolutley clear and this is something I will under no circumstances budge on: If raising the power levels is the one thing you can do to raise the stakes and add weight to your story, you are a terrible writer who needs to evaluate his own priorities before he picks up a pen again.

[Draconi Redfir]

Here is the question though:

If Universe Green has been erased from history, where did universe red babies come from?

Universe green('s session).


Just because something has been Erased doesn’t mean it Didn't Happen

You know, I've wondered. Is it possible to scratch a scratched session?

The general impression I'm getting is 'no' but it's never been explained why. I wonder if we'll ever find out?

I like to think yes, with each scratch adding in a different thing to prep the players. for example

We have ancestors A and B, and decedents C and D.

Universe 1, things happen organically, no outside influence happens, no doc scratch, no lord English, nothing. C and D play the game. They fail. They scratch.

Universe 2. Doc scratch is present somewhere in the universe, and lord English will eventually eat it. whatever caused universe 1 to fail (let's assume an illness killing off one player early) will be changed to prevent it. (super doctors in this universe.) Players are A and B. But they still fail, they scratch.

Universe 3. possibly no doc scratch or LE, as they already existed and did about their business in universe 2. possibly there as well, not sure. Something still caused the players to fail, let's assume a meteor crushing one player before they can enter the game, so Skaia altered the game to have the reckoning happen a little later. players are A and D. Fail, scratch repeat.

universe 4. this time, A and D failed because D brought in some weapon that fell into the hands of a rowdy Prospitian that used it to slay the black king, so the reckoning never happened. So in this universe, events were changed so that the Prospitian was killed on a mission. Players are B and C.


There was some talk about this early on when Jane and co were still being introduced, there seemed to be a lot of technology going around that related to the game such as the bit that turned objects into grist.

It was suggested, that because the Bunny allowed Jack to get the ring, slay the king, and start the reckoning early, that the game only saw the problem as being "The players had no way of winning before the reckoning." so it altered the universe to provide technology and objects usually not given until after the players had entered the game, allowing them to effectively "speed run" through the game, having collected all sorts of grist and tools and the like that they would need before even entering the game.

Naturally this was shown to not be the case, but it was still a good thought at the time.


It may also just be me, but i believe that during these same universe incarnations, other sessions would be played and may even be successful, for example it's possible that a group of four kids in universe 1 managed to create a universe somehow and won the game, not appearing in universe 2 or any others.

Meanwhile another session of universe 1, eight players are unable to win, and so they scratch, and appear in universe 2. Basically to scratch your session means "Sign me up for the next universe", and you will appear there, but if you do not scratch, and either win or just plain die, you won't appear in the next universe at all because you never RSVP'ed for it.

[Randomguy]

Did anyone else notice the colours on the Condesces magical energy glow in the close up were a bit odd? The ones I saw were Blue, Red (it could have been rust), yellow and green. The blue and red make sense, that's from Sollux's powers, but why glow yellow? And why green of all colours? I mean, I suppose it could have been lime, but the colour almost exactly matches Nepeta's blood, and Nepeta doesn't have any sorts of powers at all.

Also, this doesn't match the last glowy Condesce panel, which had red, blue, purple (her blood colour), green, yellow, black and rust, and she was outlined with the ghostly white that ghost Aradia got sometimes when she used her powers.

Any theories? (I have my own, and I'll post them a bit later, as not to bias your answers.)

Also, am I looking too much into this? If it were any other comic I'd think I was, but this is Homestuck we're talking about here.

[Jayngfet]

I don't know why, but I love Caliborn a whole lot more now.

He's a creepy, arrogant, leering jerk. He's the worst at all of those things possibly even past Cronus, but he just pulls them off in a way that's entertaining to read.

[Lord Raziere]

No its more like I'm just thinking that Caliborn is the master of crossing the line twice. His dialog is hilarious, but as a person….no.

[Scowling Dragon]

On the new update:

EEEW gross!

Also, how is is session a punishment? I don't think anybody here truly cares about creating a new universe (Its just so large of a concept to grasp its more of a meh thing), and he is rewarded with being the most powerful being in the universe, and destroying two others.

By this point I am CONVINCED that SBURB is the bad guy. No reproductive system could be THIS bad at reproducing to the point it even threatens itself.

[Jayngfet]

On the new update:

EEEW gross!

Also, how is is session a punishment? I don't think anybody here truly cares about creating a new universe (Its just so large of a concept to grasp its more of a meh thing), and he is rewarded with being the most powerful being in the universe, and destroying two others.

By this point I am CONVINCED that SBURB is the bad guy. No reproductive system could be THIS bad at reproducing to the point it even threatens itself.

Dude, you would be amazed how stupid biology can be sometimes. Even if it only works on a cellular level, human reproduction is full of needlessly complicated steps and potentially crippling flaws that might cause damage to the people involved or obliterate itself and render someone sterile, even before conception and having to deal with all the problems with one human growing inside of another, which is often fatal to both parties.

I have no trouble believing that Spurb could screw itself over so thoroughly even though there are a million better ways to do this in retrospect. It's a biological function that uses sentient and semi sentient life as the equivalent of individual cells, and individual cells tend to die stupid deaths of questionable necessity even when things work perfectly,.

[Scowling Dragon]

I can agree on it being needlessly complicated (Except for destroying the earth) but even if it IS intentional, its still a horrible thing.

If it wasn't for Sburb, the earth would still be intact. So I can't see it as anything else except for pointlessly cruel.

[Draconi Redfir]

but you see that's the thing, Sburb is (or at least was before Jack/Bec noir came along) the primary antagonist of Homestuck, heck that's when things were the most interesting IMHO. and even then it doesn't mean it's a "Bad guy". Not every bout of Sex will produce a child, there's bound to be more then a few reproductive sessions that don't go anywhere. That's why you do it multiple times until you eventually succeed.

In a sense, the Scratch was akin to two would-be parents waiting a few weeks/months and trying again.