MS Paint Adventures 6:12

[Cavelcade]

"its a social commentary".

You didn't actually address this at all, and it's a totally valid reading of the characters. John, Jade, Dave and Rose are the youth disconnected from real relationships, the trolls are the various personas of those on the internet, etc.

Nothing you have said invalidates this, and, if anything, support this reading.

[Scowling Dragon]

And Ethan from CTR-ALT-Delete is an example of how manchildren go unpunished in our society, and when **** DOES hit the fan for them they are never prepared.

You can attach this **** to anything. Its the framing and direction that counts.

[Draconi Redfir]

i have yet to see anything after Caliborn talking about how smart he is for creating a fake circle entirely out of right angles.

[Cavelcade]

And Ethan from CTR-ALT-Delete is an example of how manchildren go unpunished in our society, and when **** DOES hit the fan for them they are never prepared.

You can attach this **** to anything. Its the framing and direction that counts.

Yes. Just because you don't like this doesn't make it incorrect, though - and there is a huge difference between the framing of CAD and Homestuck. Ethan is framed always as this loveable jerk, even when his actions are completely at odds with this. When Dirk, Jake or John are being jerks they get called out on it, or when Rose goes off the deep end or, etc, and there are consequences for it.

You don't like Homestuck. That doesn't make it bad. Stop acting like you're smarter than everyone because you're the only one who sees its flaws. It definitely has many of them, but some are by design, some are part of the experimental process of writing a comic like Homestuck (of course he'll make mistakes!) and some aren't mistakes at all.



Also to claim the trolls are anything but satire of internet personalities is literally ridiculous. This is confirmed at every turn. To then extrapolate based on this is then not ridiculous. We already know there is an element of internet-society commentary involved, and can make reasonable deductions based on that.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im not acting like im starter then anybody else. I don't think of myself as smarter then anybody else. I never intend to change (By force) anybodies opinions.

I just say my commentary, I get into an argument (Which I think is pretty good) and we both leave with new knowledge.

The only stuff that DOES indeed bug me is the social commentary thing. Because it just gets slapped onto anything and everything.

From my perspective the story makes no mention of this, the framing is wrong, and some of the details in the original argument are off. Im just stating what im saying

And Hometsuck has been running for years. The experimental stage is over. There are now other comics based off its style in the hundreds. Some I think even better then HS.

And so what? The first set of trolls are caricatures based off of some internet personalities which are based off of real people. And? Did I say anything about the trolls? Except with the very kiddish and just unimaginative love system I have no problem with their actions. They ARE aliens.

Edit:

Also sorry if I come off as a bit of a ponce.

[Androgeus]

Sooo, according to www.isup.me, MSPA is not down just for me... but has anyone here been able to see the updates of the last few days, or are you just discussing the last update before that?

the server was taken down for 30 minutes and hasn't been brought back up

Edit:I r am of the good speel and grammar.

[Cavelcade]

The point is the first (and second, for that matter) set of Trolls are indeed satires of elements of internet society, and, therefore, it is reasonable to look for less obvious but equally valid items whereby the effects of the internet are examined.


Also the main problem I have is your dismissal of ideas - that is why I wrote the line about seeming to take an 'I am smarter than you' point of view, but you provide no evidence to really back up your dismissal. You do bring up valid points, but you regularly ignore the points of others, if they disagree with yours. A primary example here would be your dismissal of the trolls as having any worth or interest because they are alien - yes, they are, but all aliens designed by humans are designed to reflect and examine certain elements of ours lives, or cause us to. Specifically, I think, these aliens are designed to make us ruminate on the phenomenally different society of the internet when compared to the more general understanding of society.




As for the experimental phase being over - that's also not true. Every new element introduced is Hussie experimenting, with different writing styles, different ways to bring into play the 'web' element of webcomic or different ways of looking at old concepts. It is also somewhat unreasonable to compare it to comics that copy of it - it is only natural that some of them refine the work here, it is easy to refine something new. I'm glad that it's happening, but it doesn't mean the original should be dismissed. Of course, the original is left with plenty of flaws but those, as an examination of how the new medium will develop, are interesting.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well I guess thats your opinion I guess. Im not dismissing it. Im just not agreeing with it.

Just because Hussie says "YO! Some of these guys act like trolls!" I don't think "This sure means something". So what that they act like trolls? Does that automatically make them deep or something? Most of them are just a quirk.

Its because just by scrolling on youtube I can see all their types of personality. Its not like it SAYS anything about that type of person. Its just "These people exist!". Im going to think about them yes. But no more then if I saw them on youtube making them more a reference then anything analytic. It takes no effort to just make me THINK about something. It takes effort to make me see a new point of view.

And I disagree on the writing style as well. Hussie has been repeating this matreshka style of writing for the past year or so. Its HIGHLY repetitive and over-bloated. Introduce another bucketful of characters to die/ waste time and space, then add another alternate reality, then scale up the master villain.

What I mean is just because its experimental doesn't mean I won't criticize it.

Some ideas aren't used for a REASON. Just that they are new doesn't give them somekind of "Criticizm free" card.

And Im not saying it doesn't have good stuff as well. It does. But I see the thing it did better done already.

[Anarion]

Well I guess thats your opinion I guess. Im not dismissing it. Im just not agreeing with it.

"You're wrong" and "I don't like this reading" are two very different statements. You absolutely are dismissing people's opinions and it's disingenuous to state otherwise. You're entitled to do that, but don't lie about it.

Just because Hussie says "YO! Some of these guys act like trolls!" I don't think "This sure means something". So what that they act like trolls? Does that automatically make them deep or something? Most of them are just a quirk.

Actually yes, it makes them deep. In context, if you care to think about it, their various "quirks" are satires and/or hyperbole of real ways that people act on the Internet. Up to and including the dialogue going on this thread.

Its because just by scrolling on youtube I can see all their types of personality. Its not like it SAYS anything about that type of person. Its just "These people exist!". Im going to think about them yes. But no more then if I saw them on youtube making them more a reference then anything analytic. It takes no effort to just make me THINK about something. It takes effort to make me see a new point of view.

It says all sorts of things. Let's take Karkat because he's easy. He's the shouting, insulting type that everyone has seen a million times and dismisses instantly the second they see all that caps lock. Hussie explains him as a person that has deep-seated confidence issues. He's talented, but drives himself to take on responsibility and not listen to others because he's not willing to make himself vulnerable. He's also active and dynamic, and we see that where he started out merely harassing people, when he turned his talents to working with Jade for the scratch, he became able to accomplish a lot by coordinating lots of different people.

Now, I'm not sure this is all applicable to everyone that screams in caps lock on the Internet, but I hope that some readers of the comic other than myself have at least thought about what types of people might be on the other side of the keyboard thanks to Homestuck.

And I disagree on the writing style as well. Hussie has been repeating this matreshka style of writing for the past year or so. Its HIGHLY repetitive and over-bloated. Introduce another bucketful of characters to die/ waste time and space, then add another alternate reality, then scale up the master villain.

What I mean is just because its experimental doesn't mean I won't criticize it.

Yeah that's fair.

Some ideas aren't used for a REASON. Just that they are new doesn't give them somekind of "Criticizm free" card.

Also fair, though others seem to think some of the new ideas worked better than you do.

And Im not saying it doesn't have good stuff as well. It does. But I see the thing it did better done already.

I don't understand this statement. Could you clarify?

[Scowling Dragon]

Your right. Im dismissive of the "Its a satire" card. Anything else is mostly subjective.

I believe that with the presentation coupled with the tone does not make this a social commentary.

This is also sort of subjective I guess. Or the very idea of what dismissive is also subjective depending on the person so there is also that.

The idea that something is just "DEEP MAN" so the standard rules of character building, character development and audience investment don't have to apply is just something I see thrown around so much. Its really easy to just say "Its ART! I don't have to make it make sense!" is always subjective but for me, this doesn't work for Homestuck. I don't want to get into the little details that where mentioned in the specifics, cause then this post will be 6 times longer but I just disagree with many of your assessments. Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

I don't understand this statement. Could you clarify?

Curses my poor grammar!

I meant that the ideas that Homestuck (+Problem Sleuth) implemented I have seen used much better in other stories. One of my favorites is The Beginners guide to the end of the galaxy.

It has a unique art style that helps support its story (The black and white realistic photos contrasted with the simple stick figure people give a sense of age and sort of artificial preservation.), the main character is...Well OK but since hes LITERALLY the everyman I give that a pass. The tone is consistent, it has a sense of wonder and discovery, and it doesn't bloat.

[AgentPaper]

There is no universal "right" to stories, or literature, or really any art. What works for some stories would be a death stroke for others. What you call bloat isn't an issue with Homestuck, but rather one of it's main features. Removing it wouldn't improve the story, and in fact would probably render it worthless and dull.

It's the same as, for example, Lord of the Ring having a ton of exposition and going on forever about the background of the world. In many books, that would make it terribly boring and kill the story, but for LotR it's one of the main draws.

[Scowling Dragon]

Which I consider bias caused by entering the story from a certain perspective.

If you enter a story hearing "This SURE is a classic" or "This is AMAZING" or "This is the most highest grossing Kiwi fruit tree of ALL TIME" you tune your expectations for something else. And it takes a while to snap out of it.

Like WHY does having this matreshka story help it? WHY does having an inconsistent tone help the story? WHY does it need this many characters?

And I genuinly want to know. And not to be an ass I will not reply or counter your opinion. I will just listen.

So yeah. Im handing the power to YOU!

People tell me why Homestuck works better with the above.

[Cavelcade]

Your right. Im dismissive of the "Its a satire" card. Anything else is mostly subjective.

But you have given no reason to be - by being dismissive, you come across as arrogant, which leads people to dismiss the rest of your ideas, because, quite frankly, it shows that you haven't analysed it at all. To claim HS isn't a satire is ridiculous (though it's also ridiculous to claim that is all HS is). There are numerous elements, some of which are listed above, which make no sense in any reading other than as satire but, importantly, do make sense within that reading.

You mightn't like that, which is fine, but to claim it doesn't exist is just...arrogance.

I believe that with the presentation coupled with the tone does not make this a social commentary.

Okay. Why? I've seen you say this numerous times but I can't remember if you've explained why. Please do!

This is also sort of subjective I guess. Or the very idea of what dismissive is also subjective depending on the person so there is also that.

Dismissive: Feeling or showing that something is unworthy of consideration.

This is what you have done repeatedly. It is not subjective.

The idea that something is just "DEEP MAN" so the standard rules of character building, character development and audience investment don't have to apply is just something I see thrown around so much. Its really easy to just say "Its ART! I don't have to make it make sense!" is always subjective but for me, this doesn't work for Homestuck. I don't want to get into the little details that where mentioned in the specifics, cause then this post will be 6 times longer but I just disagree with many of your assessments. Sometimes bad writing is just bad writing.

I don't think anyone has been arguing that it's just DEEP MAN? What people have been arguing is that the character building is successful in its aims, and that they are invested. Sometimes bad writing is just bad, but sometimes a style you dislike is a style you dislike. The Lord of the Rings comparison is very apt.

Edit: I read lord of the rings when I was 10 before I had heard any praise of it and it is by far and away my favourite book and has been since I first read it. I also read Homestuck straight after Problem Sleuth, before I'd known how big it was and still liked it and got invested. So I don't agree with that argument at all.

[Scowling Dragon]

Alright let me re-phase myself. Even if I view them AS a satire, I do not consider them particularly good, or insightful. A satire should make me examine something that I did not before, learn something new about something else or myself. I do not find the trolls making me learn anything that I did not know before.

There. My subjective opinion on the subjective idea that the trolls are satire. I apologize for coming off as dismissive.

edit:

To claim HS isn't a satire is ridiculous

This is also dismissive.

[Cavelcade]

It would only be dismissive if I hadn't, in other posts, drawn attention to clearly satirical elements, indicating I had given it consideration. That's not dismissive, that's just looking at the evidence of the plot and tone and other elements and drawing a conclusion, which is then supported by Word of Hussie.

Also my point was that the Trolls are satirical and are meant to draw attention to two things:

1) The idea of how we view ourselves and others online, by subverting the common tropes found thereon.

2) To make it 100% clear that the whole thing is a satire. Note that it doesn't do this directly, but by painting this one element in a clear light, it makes it easier to read the others as they were (as far as I can tell), meant to be read, ie, a satire about internet culture and how it is affecting us.

I haven't done a read-through recently to go into the requisite detail and back it up with specific links, but when I do, I'll be sure to do so. I don't think anything particularly contradicts this, though, as it also explains and justifies the inconsistent tone - which is a common trope in satire. For comparison - see the perfectly rational explanation of why Irish parents should sell their children as food to the British landlords during the famine era. It's tone is both perfectly rational, and completely monstrous, interweaving between lamenting the downfall of society and suggesting a completely awful solution - so as to make the British reexamine the morality of their actions.

I am not suggesting Hussie is of Swift's calibre by any means. It is just an example.

[Scowling Dragon]

Yes it is dismissive as I did exactly as you did. I just considered the evidence lackluster at best and came to a different conclusion.

What tropes does it subvert? What information did it give insight to you personally. Did I know before Homestuck that those who type in all caps on youtube are likely very immature or have some psychological issue? Yes. Is there some common trope of Caps lock screamers on youtube being portrayed as intelligent and highly sophisticated?

Satire is to poke fun of something, and point out its flaws in an ironic way. What is it poking fun of with SPECIFIC examples.

And inconsistent tone is NOT common in satire. Satire does not yell "TAKE ME SERIOUSLY! HERE IS SOME GENOCIDE AND SAD MUSIC" half the time and "TEEHEE LOLS" the other. Unless its a satire of poorly made satire then bravo Hussie.

[Science Officer]

Like WHY does having this matreshka story help it?

By matryoshka, you mean the story having many 'layers'? Or maybe the many repeating patterns and similarities?

WHY does having an inconsistent tone help the story?

Well, I think it's fun to have a story with funny comedy bits and epic fantasy battle stuff with the same characters in the same world. It doesn't really make the story any better.

WHY does it need this many characters?

Very much in agreement with you on this. The exiles were hard to keep track of, and the DAncestors were the straw that broke the camel's back. It is rather ludicrous. As you suggested, it might be nice to have some characters develop rather than just having them killed and new ones introduced.

And I do agree on most other points. The list of nigh-omnipotent main villains is really longer than it ought to be. Having the plot be a matter of universe creation and destruction doesn't make it better, but, to me, doesn't make it any worse. It would also be nice if the human characters acted like humans more often.

EDIT: Yeah, I never got any sense that Homestuck was intended as a satire. Or even the trolls. I never even understood that they were meant to represent internet stereotypes, nevermind mock them. I guess some parts are (Kankri, GamerBro), but the thing as a whole?

[Anarion]

Homestuck does not have an especially large number of characters compared to many popular works of fantasy.

Fewer than Game of Thrones, far fewer than Lord of the Rings (the Silmarillion of course dwarfs the whole thing), Not even close to Star Wars.

What Homestuck does that makes it seem like it has a lot of characters is that it doesn't keep a focus. People cope with Game of Thrones by only caring about Tyrion, a couple Starks, and Daenerys. Tolkien focuses us on the fellowship even though they meet tons of different people and reference tons more.


Okay, so I've just stated that Homestuck is unfocused. It jumps around, it leaves people in suspense, it introduces and focuses on new people right in the middle of ongoing stories. The proper questions to ask are
1. Why does it do this?
2. Does it succeed on its intentions?
3. On balance, was the overall effect worthwhile?

1. For the first question, I would suggest something like the following: Homestuck relies heavily on caricatured personalities and complex overlapping plot elements. It's density is actually a selling point because it makes the reader feel smart to puzzle the whole thing out. This means that, for any given plot element, and especially when introducing new things, Hussie often finds himself in need of new personalities that will focus on the things he needs them to focus on. The alpha kids in particular were a required element to have exposition about how multiple universes and Sburb sessions interact. The beta kids and trolls wouldn't have sat through that because they're powerful, already have plans, and know a lot of what's going on. Thus, we keep getting more and more characters. This, in turn, free Hussie up to kill a lot of them for drama or even to explore the afterlife sections of the setting, especially when a given character has served his or her purpose already.

In sum: characters in Homestuck act in service to the larger setting that encompasses them. They are added and discarded as necessary in the service of that setting and the furtherance of drama.


2. For the second, I would say Homestuck partially succeeds. The new characters, deaths, ghosts, and so forth have been an effective way to introduce information. The alternative of having Rose Lalonde narrate the whole thing would have been unutterably boring. On the other hand, I think that Hussie does get a kick out of just screwing around with characters, to the point that he's cheapened death in the strip. I'd also imagine that, after the high drama in Act 5, the slow pace of Act 6 has alienated some readers, so he may have made things too convoluted. Nevertheless, if you actually sort through all the plot threads, most of these characters and their arcs have been woven into the overarching story in a way that seems to lead towards a grand conclusion, so I think it's doing a good job.

3. So, worthwhile on balance? It's hard to say. If you're looking for deep, character-focused drama, Homestuck actually isn't the right place for you. The whole teenage romance stuff, the troll quadrants, the constant shipping is all making a joke out of stuff that's normally very serious and moves a lot of people. As Scowling Dragon has pointed out, characters have often acted conveniently or entirely within their caricatured traits for the convenience of the plot. However, the overall effect has been to explain and illustrate this incredibly interesting and complex series of interlocking worlds. And, despite all the killing and madness, certain central characters have stuck with the comic since very early on and drive the plot. The four beta kids, Karkat, Gamzee, Terezi, and Vriska in particular have been extremely active and involved, and the new alpha kids look to be taking major roles within the setting despite their relatively low power level.

I think it comes out positive on balance because the technique of introducing characters and jumping around to multiple viewpoints emphasizes the many simultaneous plot threads moving through the narrative and challenges the reader. This challenging of the reader has been a major goal of the narrative and, for those who stick with the challenge, one of the most rewarding aspects of the comic.

[Squark]

While Homestuck does have a large main cast (usually grouped up into herds), not all the characters in Homestuck are important. Meenah and Aranea are the only Beforus trolls who serve a purpose beyond satisfying fan demand for their appearance or a character growth opportunity for an existing character. The Blue Team trolls have stopped being important at this point as well. That leaves us with the sprites (Davesprite is the only one with any real extended plot of hisown), the carapacians (Just PM and the Various Jacks, the latter of whom are all pretty similar), the Cherubs (And Calliope's mostly just a macguffin right now), and... I hate spelling the Alteranian version of Meenah's name. She's still a plot relevant (Lord English still feels more like an impending natural disaster than a character, honestly. But then, that's what Caliborn is for). So, yeah, it's a lot of characters, but large casts aren't inherently a bad thing.

[Gez]

The first batch of troll (Karkat and co) aren't really satire. They're more like avatars. They represent different types of Internet people (Karkat being the angry kid, Nepeta the shipping fangirl, etc.) but it's not too pronounced.

The second batch (Kankri and co) definitely are satire. It's both blatant and explicitly said if you talk to Hussie as Damara in the last of the three Meenah walkarounds.

On the social commentary part, it's also true. Hussie has repeatedly said that Homestuck was fully, and in all aspects, a product of its medium (the Internet), and that includes the characterization of the core protagonists. They all are kids stuck at home* with no social life outside their little circle of friends on the Internet.

* The title also has other meanings.

These dimensions to the story are there. It doesn't mean that they are the most important part or fully explored or whatever. Just because there is something in a story doesn't mean it revolves around it. But it exists.

The most important aspect of Homestuck IMHO is probably the metafictional part. At its core, what the story of Homestuck revolves around is the story of Homestuck. Everything, from the way it is written and presented to the nature of the protagonists, the narrator(s) and of the (pen?)ultimate villain, and to the protagonists' angst over predestination and free will, feeds into this loop. Homestuck is a story about a story, and more precisely it is a story about itself. About its characters and authors and readers, who tend to slip from one role to another (reader commands made readers the authors; the second-person narration doesn't distinguish between focus characters and the audience, author inserts made the author a character; characters like Doc Scratch or Lord English take up the role of the author...).

[Cavelcade]

Yes it is dismissive as I did exactly as you did. I just considered the evidence lackluster at best and came to a different conclusion.

How did you come to this conclusion? I mean, I could see you saying "It's a failed satire", but not satirical at all? Really?

What tropes does it subvert? What information did it give insight to you personally. Did I know before Homestuck that those who type in all caps on youtube are likely very immature or have some psychological issue? Yes. Is there some common trope of Caps lock screamers on youtube being portrayed as intelligent and highly sophisticated?

It is disingenuous to suggest that it is only trope-subversion which can be satirical in nature. That would be true if you could only satire works of art, but that is not the case and not what Homestuck is aiming to satire.

"Satire: the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues:"

This is, instead, examining the new society that is forming around the internet (while also being a puzzle story, where you're supposed to try and guess what happens next - again, HS is not just a satire). That is why I chose the comparison with Swift's "A Modest Proposal" (I think I didn't specify the name, in my last post, sorry), as opposed to something like Spaceballs. It is aiming to critique that society and the people who the author feels make it worse.

Specifically, it is exposing the destructive affect these people have on both their own development and the environment they create around themselves and eventually get locked out of because of just how much of an ******* some of them are - also, giving it cancer by their inattention! There are the deaths they cause within their own group, and also the utter destruction of the universe they're trying to create.

Maybe you haven't come across this phenomenon but I have seen it reasonably often on forums, or, even, in groups of nerds I hang out with who 'live' on the internet. There are those who fall into the categories of the trolls (or, more accurately, perceive themselves as falling into and thus act in such a way, which is, by the way, what most of the trolls do and why Karkat is so angry and great) and act in that manner in real and virtual life and they ruin groups.

Also the argument of perception is important - while to a degree the aliens are alien, there really are quite a lot of similarities between us and them (intentionally). The fact that we're so pronouncédly different is more a matter of the existential themes in HS, but, since I haven't fully developed my viewpoint on those and they're not 100% relevant to this debate, that's all I'll say about them here.

It's hard to be more specific than this when I haven't read it through in a while, but that's at least one example. Also, see the next paragraph.

And inconsistent tone is NOT common in satire. Satire does not yell "TAKE ME SERIOUSLY! HERE IS SOME GENOCIDE AND SAD MUSIC" half the time and "TEEHEE LOLS" the other. Unless its a satire of poorly made satire then bravo Hussie.

No, the point is when it's going "TAKE ME SERIOUSLY!" you're supposed to say "No this is completely ridiculous". That is the point. You're supposed to look at it and go - man, what the hell is wrong with the guy who even writes this? And what's wrong with these kids?

What's wrong with them is they've been living in a world created by trolls, communicating only with the trolls and with others who communicate with trolls - and their parental units, who suffer from a variety of neuroses. But they are us, and we are them and their reaction to the world getting destroyed isn't that unlike people's reactions when something either happens far enough away that we can't connect with it, (like, say, a revolution in Tunisia) or in a completely disconnected way, like say, a forum or community getting crushed by trolls. And it doesn't seem important to the trolls or the people removed from it slightly - but it is vitally important to the people involved!


That is why I think Homestuck is a satire and it should be read as such, and I find it effective and amusing.


Also the music, independently, is awesome and I love it. That's not related to anything, but you just got me thinking about it again.

Edit: I forgot to mention about the meta elements. They do, I think, fall into the satirical reading. Also are great.

[Jayngfet]

As for Dave, it's hard to say. Dave is really stubborn about showing emotions, ok, good example here is Bro's death. He really was a mess when he found out, and he only revealed his true feelings and insecurities to Terezi, who incidentally, is the only character we've seen him do that with. He's not even that open with John or Rose (although it may have something to do with the fact that it was highly unlikely for him to ever meet Terezi in person at the time). It's particularly hard to gauge Dave's reaction though, it doesn't help that we never really saw his entry and early post-entry really. I dunno, I'm not a massive fan of Dave *dodges incoming bullets* I find him kind of difficult to talk about.

Dave is generally good with getting the Severity of the situation, even if it takes a while.

During the last few Walkarounds it's obvious the whole "earth is dead" thing has been eating at him for a while. Rose clearly doesn't care all that much, which bugs me, but he clearly has some issues regarding it he's trying to suppress. He's probably be a bit more open about it if absolutely anybody in the comic could relate or even pretend to sympathize a bit more, but still.

[Scowling Dragon]

Now Im caught in a bit of a conundrum. On one side i will be exhausted arguing with multiple people at once, and I don't want to look like I was beaten, or gave up or something.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Discretion is the better part of valour.

There is no shame in conceding when the odds are against you or when you are tired.

[Jayngfet]

Now Im caught in a bit of a conundrum. On one side i will be exhausted arguing with multiple people at once, and I don't want to look like I was beaten, or gave up or something.

I like your contributions. Besides, who else is there to get exhausted for this time of year? Losers like Family, or worse, loved ones?


Anyway, I love how immediately after claiming not to be far, she was drawn at at least double thickness.

[AgentPaper]

Now Im caught in a bit of a conundrum. On one side i will be exhausted arguing with multiple people at once, and I don't want to look like I was beaten, or gave up or something.

Haha, I know the feeling. It's one reason I haven't weighed in on this as much as I've been tempted to.

My best advice is to take a step back, re-evaluate your position, and decide if you really care enough to continue on. Don't keep arguing just because you don't want to lose. If you argue to win, you'll never convince anyone of anything.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't think I could honestly WIN this argument as everybody here is pretty solidly cemented into what they think.

I wanted to get more insight into other peoples ideas, and I think I did. I don't agree on them, but yeah. I just don't want to look like a pansy that jumps ship when the heat is hot.

[AgentPaper]

I don't think I could honestly WIN this argument as everybody here is pretty solidly cemented into what they think.

I wanted to get more insight into other peoples ideas, and I think I did. I don't agree on them, but yeah. I just don't want to look like a pansy that jumps ship when the heat is hot.

It's hard to convince someone that the thing they enjoy so much is actually terrible, eh?

[Scowling Dragon]

It's hard to convince someone that the thing they enjoy so much is actually terrible, eh?

Maybe only slightly easier then convincing somebody that something they find boring and annoying is actually genius, eh?.

edit:

That came out cocky. Sorry.

[Shadow of the Sun]

'course, that's the biggest issue here.

We know you don't like it; that's cool, not everyone likes the same things.

The biggest issue is that you keep bloody going on about it.