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    Default Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    After a while and a spontaneous explosion of luck I noticed a list in the back of the Dragonomicon that list every true dragon (P.287) and for some reason I just can't find Kobold is this a mistake? or an error? does this mean that Kobolds don't count as true dragons? I ask because in Races of the Dragon it states that Kobolds have age categories like Dragons... so that MUST make them True Dragons right?

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Races was printed after Draconomicon. Hence, they couldn't just errata ALL of the copies of Draconomicon. Think of how much effort that would take. I mean, they'd have to copy the errata of Complete Mage, and-


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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Mage-King View Post
    Races was printed after Draconomicon. Hence, they couldn't just errata ALL of the copies of Draconomicon. Think of how much effort that would take. I mean, they'd have to copy the errata of Complete Mage, and-


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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    The list in the back of the Draconomicon is all the true dragons as of its publishing date. They don't need to update the list for every book printed afterward, because there's a blanket statement to categorize all creatures of the dragon type as either true or not:

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconomicon page 4
    THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DRAGONS

    In the D&D game, the term “dragon” encompasses a number
    of different creatures, some of which bear little resemblance to
    the great flying creatures with breath weapons that we commonly
    think of as dragons.

    For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten
    varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual—
    the five chromatic dragons (black, blue, green, red, white) and
    the five metallic dragons (brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver).
    True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful
    as they grow older.

    A number of other true dragons are described in Chapter 4
    of this book. In addition, Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides
    a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in
    official sources.

    Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance
    through age categories
    are referred to as lesser dragons
    (which
    should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less
    formidable than true dragons).

    The three kinds of lesser dragon described in the Monster
    Manual are the dragon turtle, the pseudodragon, and the
    wyvern. Chapter 4 of this book contains a number of descriptions
    of other lesser dragons, and Appendix 2 lists every lesser
    dragon that has been described in a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS rulebook
    or accessory.
    There you have it: Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2012-06-01 at 01:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Basically, in order to call a kobold a true dragon, you need to rely on:

    * RotD Dragonwrought feat grants dragon type to kobolds.
    * Dra p4 defines a true dragon as one that is dragon type and progresses through age categories. Given that any creature not specified as going through dragon-style age categories would logically go through PC-style age categories (general rule applies where not trumped by specific rule), this should imply that only those with dragon-style age categories count.
    * Elsewhere in Dra (lost the page reference), a true dragon is defined as one with the dragon type that gains power as it ages.
    * RotD p38 notes that kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat don't suffer ageing penalties. This is not mentioned in the feat itself.
    * RotD p38 notes that kobolds have dragon-style age categories, but assigns zero game-mechanic effect to these age categories.
    * RotD p38 gives conventional (PC-style) age categories for kobolds. These have the standard game-mechanic effects, except for that single-sentence exception for the Dragonwrought feat.
    * The Dra index lists all true dragons published to date. As RotD (and its feats) was not yet published, there was no way, at that time, a kobold could become a true dragon or gain the dragon type.

    It seems to me that if RAW does allow true dragon kobolds, it is an unintended consequence rather than an intentional design decision.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-06-01 at 04:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    The list in the back of the Draconomicon is all the true dragons as of its publishing date. They don't need to update the list for every book printed afterward, because there's a blanket statement to categorize all creatures of the dragon type as either true or not:



    There you have it: Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobolds in the SRD

    Kobold, 1st-Level Warrior
    Size/Type: Small Humanoid (Reptilian)
    Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +2 leather), touch 12, flat-footed 14
    Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-4
    Attack: Spear +1 melee (1d6-1/×3) or sling +3 ranged (1d3-1)
    Full Attack: Spear +1 melee (1d6-1/×3) or sling +3 ranged (1d3-1)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: —
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
    Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will -1
    Abilities: Str 9, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
    Skills: Craft (trapmaking) +2, Hide +6, Listen +2, Move Silently +2, Profession (miner) +2, Search +2, Spot +2
    Feats: Alertness
    Environment: Temperate forests
    Organization: Gang (4-9), band (10-100 plus 100% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults and 1 leader of 4th-6th level), warband (10-24 plus 2-4 dire weasels), tribe (40-400 plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 1 leader of 6th-8th level, and 5-8 dire weasels)
    Challenge Rating: ¼
    Treasure: Standard
    Alignment: Usually lawful evil
    Advancement: By character class
    Level Adjustment: +0


    Hmm... I just can't seem to find where it says that Kobolds age like Dragons and (and gain power as a Dragon would with a pre-set advancement)... However if this is true then a Half-Dragon would qualify as a True Dragon since it technically gains power as it ages...

    Mind citing where it states that Kobolds advance through age category (and therefore through Dragon HD)?
    Last edited by Calanon; 2012-06-01 at 04:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post

    Hmm... I just can't seem to find where it says that Kobolds age like Dragons and (and gain power as a Dragon would with a pre-set advancement)... However if this is true then a Half-Dragon would qualify as a True Dragon since it technically gains power as it ages...

    Mind citing where it states that Kobolds advance through age category (and therefore through Dragon HD)?
    Races of the Dragon page 40, Table 3-2.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    A case can be made that the statement in DMG, that a being must be an epic character or NPC to take an epic feat, cannot be "overridden" by Draconomicon saying that a true dragon of Old age or older can take one.

    Especially since it doesn't say in Draconomicon "even if it is not an epic character" after that bit.

    As it happens, with LA and Hit dice taken into account, the vast majority of True Dragons will be epic characters long before they reach old age.

    Except the aforementioned Dragonwrought Kobolds.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-06-01 at 05:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    The list in the back of the Draconomicon is all the true dragons as of its publishing date. They don't need to update the list for every book printed afterward, because there's a blanket statement to categorize all creatures of the dragon type as either true or not:



    There you have it: Creatures of the Dragon type are True Dragons by default, and are only Lesser Dragons if they do not advance through age categories. Therefore, Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons because they advance through age categories.

    It's been pointed out before that Kobolds HAVE dragon age categories but they don;t advance through them like dragons, they advance by character class so they're not true dragons.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    After a while and a spontaneous explosion of luck I noticed a list in the back of the Dragonomicon that list every true dragon (P.287) and for some reason I just can't find Kobold is this a mistake? or an error? does this mean that Kobolds don't count as true dragons? I ask because in Races of the Dragon it states that Kobolds have age categories like Dragons... so that MUST make them True Dragons right?
    Draconomicon was printed before RoTD. Like all lists everywhere, it doesn't list things printed after the list was made. This is of no importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    It's been pointed out before that Kobolds HAVE dragon age categories but they don;t advance through them like dragons, they advance by character class so they're not true dragons.
    That is not a requirement in the definition of True Dragon, though. So, it's also of no concern. The only requirements are as follows:

    1. Dragon type.
    2. Grows more powerful as they grow older.
    3. 12 Age categories.

    DW kobolds possess all three.

    Additionally, they DO advance through age categories. They are subject to aging, like everything else.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2012-06-01 at 07:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    It's been pointed out before that Kobolds HAVE dragon age categories but they don;t advance through them like dragons, they advance by character class so they're not true dragons.
    Like the last time we had this argument, it all comes down to how we define "advance."'

    If we define "advance" through its traditional meaning of "move forward," then yes, kobolds qualify, as they advance through age categories (i.e., as they get older, they go through a sequence of age categories).

    If we define "advance" as "grow in power," as it typically does in D&D, then kobolds do not qualify, as they do not grow in power due to their age, they advance by character class.

    I lean towards the latter.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    After a while and a spontaneous explosion of luck I noticed a list in the back of the Dragonomicon that list every true dragon (P.287) and for some reason I just can't find Kobold is this a mistake? or an error? does this mean that Kobolds don't count as true dragons? I ask because in Races of the Dragon it states that Kobolds have age categories like Dragons... so that MUST make them True Dragons right?
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Like the last time we had this argument, it all comes down to how we define "advance."'

    If we define "advance" through its traditional meaning of "move forward," then yes, kobolds qualify, as they advance through age categories (i.e., as they get older, they go through a sequence of age categories).

    If we define "advance" as "grow in power," as it typically does in D&D, then kobolds do not qualify, as they do not grow in power due to their age, they advance by character class.

    I lean towards the latter.
    They do grow in power due to age, though. They don't take the typical penalties(explicitly listed in DW Kobolds rules), but do gain the benefits.

    So, as they get older, they grow in power.

    They both get older, and get stronger as a result.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They do grow in power due to age, though. They don't take the typical penalties(explicitly listed in DW Kobolds rules), but do gain the benefits.

    So, as they get older, they grow in power.

    They both get older, and get stronger as a result.
    Accruing mental stat bonuses due to age does not qualify as "advancement" per se. When D&D is talking about advancement, it's referring to gaining levels, whether through classes or racial hit dice.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    It seems to me that if RAW does allow true dragon kobolds, it is an unintended consequence rather than an intentional design decision.
    I actually believe that it was intentional that they become truly draconic. The fluff in the section supports this.

    I do not, however, believe that the designers realized that this meant they'd be able to qualify for epic feats at level one, or take obscure options from a setting specific splatbook.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Short version: yes they are.
    Long version: most people consider them to be, but they are arguably in error.

    Straight from the SRD: "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."

    Dragonwrought kobolds do not gain more abilities as they age.

    I rest my case.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Accruing mental stat bonuses due to age does not qualify as "advancement" per se. When D&D is talking about advancement, it's referring to gaining levels, whether through classes or racial hit dice.
    When discussing that specific type of advancement, capitalization is used to denotes it being a keyword, as you will note being used consistently in the SRDs discussion of it.

    When using it in lowercase, no such specific connotation is present.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    There's no argument on how something advances. You look under the description of the monster and it very clearly tells how they advance. Kobolds are by class level.
    Yes, but are we talking about advancement or Advancement?

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    There's no argument on how something advances. You look under the description of the monster and it very clearly tells how they advance. Kobolds are by class level.
    And if they had specified that true dragons have an Advancement: RHD entry, there would be no doubt that this was, in fact, what they meant.

    However "advance through age categories" is something else entirely. Hell, the entries in the monster manual slap the age categories next to RHD, and are quite clear. This is not obviously referring to that.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Draconomicon was printed before RoTD. Like all lists everywhere, it doesn't list things printed after the list was made. This is of no importance.



    That is not a requirement in the definition of True Dragon, though. So, it's also of no concern. The only requirements are as follows:

    1. Dragon type.
    2. Grows more powerful as they grow older.
    3. 12 Age categories.

    DW kobolds possess all three.

    Additionally, they DO advance through age categories. They are subject to aging, like everything else.
    They don't advance through age categories, they advance through class levels and the description in the draconomicon clearly states that they must ADVANCE through age categories not just get older.

    Advance doesn't equal age

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Repeated for emphasis, as it is a requirement not on the above list:

    "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."

    Dragonwrought kobolds may gain greater power (if you can call +3 to all mental stats "greater power"), but they do not gain more abilities. Unless you consider senility and incontinence "abilities."

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Again, you're missing a requirement put forth very clearly in the Monster Manual:

    "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."

    Dragonwrought kobolds may gain greater power (if you can call +3 to all mental stats "greater power"), but they do not gain more abilities. Unless you consider senility and incontinence "abilities."
    I agree and I've argued this before as well.

    RAW only apply to your argument if they support it. If they weaken your argument its just fluff and doesn't count lol.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    They don't advance through age categories, they advance through class levels and the description in the draconomicon clearly states that they must ADVANCE through age categories not just get older.

    Advance doesn't equal age
    They advance through them in the sense of getting older.

    Look at it this way, describing someone as being "of advancing age" is a perfectly normal method of saying someone is getting older. Given the context is about age, it's a very reasonable way of parsing the sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Repeated for emphasis, as it is a requirement not on the above list:

    "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."

    Dragonwrought kobolds may gain greater power (if you can call +3 to all mental stats "greater power"), but they do not gain more abilities. Unless you consider senility and incontinence "abilities."
    Draconomicon trumps the MM in dragon definitions, because it's both a more recent publishing and the primary source on dragons.

    In addition, other dragons specifically called out as true dragons fail to meet all of the MM's description, so holding to that is logically contradictory.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2012-06-01 at 07:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    Repeated for emphasis, as it is a requirement not on the above list:

    "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."

    Dragonwrought kobolds may gain greater power (if you can call +3 to all mental stats "greater power"), but they do not gain more abilities. Unless you consider senility and incontinence "abilities."
    It's not a "mental stat," it's a "mental ability." As in, an ability score. You gain more of your abilities, as in, your ability scores increase. And since your ability scores affect your modifiers and save DCs, your power has also increased.


    Also, the lack of physical penalties and the presence of mental bonuses would imply that neither senility nor incontinence apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds.

    Hell, senility doesn't appear to apply to anyone in D&D. In reality, old age (well, age past prime) is basically purely to one's detriment, as far as both physical and mental abilities go. Experience counts for a fair bit, but experience isn't really supposed to be a part of one's ability scores anyway.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Draconomicon trumps the MM in dragon definitions, because it's both a more recent publishing and the primary source on dragons.

    In addition, other dragons specifically called out as true dragons fail to meet all of the MM's description, so holding to that is logically contradictory.
    Can you source where it says that more recent books are considered to be definitive? I'm not actually familiar with that rule. In any case, the Draconomicon does not directly contradict the MM on that point.

    And since when has D&D been logically consistent throughout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    It's not a "mental stat," it's a "mental ability." As in, an ability score. You gain more of your abilities, as in, your ability scores increase. And since your ability scores affect your modifiers and save DCs, your power has also increased.


    Also, the lack of physical penalties and the presence of mental bonuses would imply that neither senility nor incontinence apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds.

    Hell, senility doesn't appear to apply to anyone in D&D. In reality, old age (well, age past prime) is basically purely to one's detriment, as far as both physical and mental abilities go. Experience counts for a fair bit, but experience isn't really supposed to be a part of one's ability scores anyway.
    That's shaky semantic ground. Their ability scores increase - they do not gain "more abilities". If they gained Luck or Comeliness, then yes, they would be "gaining abilities." I have not come across an example of increasing ability scores being referred to as "gaining abilities" - if you can provide proof, I will rescind my argument.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They advance through them in the sense of getting older.

    Look at it this way, describing someone as being "of advancing age" is a perfectly normal method of saying someone is getting older. Given the context is about age, it's a very reasonable way of parsing the sentence.
    Yes it would make perfect sense to assume that when you talk about something advancing it would mean advancing as in aging, except for the fact that they have a completely separate mechanic called advancement in which they determine how things advance in terms of gaining more power.

    Obviously everything ages that's why there is a distinction between the 2.
    Last edited by Invader; 2012-06-01 at 08:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    That's shaky semantic ground. Their ability scores increase - they do not gain "more abilities". If they gained Luck or Comeliness, then yes, they would be "gaining abilities."
    That's an interpretation that isn't valid for any true dragon, though. None of them gain additional stats. Therefore, one of the other definitions must be used, ie, either more ability points == more abilities, or it's speaking about something else.

    Still, I think the fact that it was superceded by a newer definition of true dragons is more relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    Yes it would make perfect sense to assume that when you talk about something advancing it would mean advancing as in aging, except for the fact that they have a completely separate mechanic called advancement in which they determine how things advance in terms of gaining more power.

    Obviously everything ages that's why there is a distinction between the 2.
    There is. And that's why they use the term Advancement to describe RHD and stuff, and advancement for general, normal use.

    The True Dragon bit uses the term "advancement".
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That's an interpretation that isn't valid for any true dragon, though. None of them gain additional stats. Therefore, one of the other definitions must be used, ie, either more ability points == more abilities, or it's speaking about something else.

    Still, I think the fact that it was superceded by a newer definition of true dragons is more relevant.
    I think they were referring to things like increasing damage reduction, spell-like abilities, et cetera.

    But I'll grant you the latter point.

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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    I think they were referring to things like increasing damage reduction, spell-like abilities, et cetera.

    But I'll grant you the latter point.
    That is a quite legitimate reading, yes. I suspect myself that they were using it in a fairly general way to mean "new capabilities".

    The parsing between keywords and general language is the source of a few conflicts in D&D, certainly...I do hope they'll be more clear about such things in future versions.
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    Default Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]

    I enjoy it, honestly. I consider D&D to be the best legal education money can't buy.

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