Results 1 to 30 of 686
-
2012-06-01, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
- Location
- The Anauroch (-696 DR)
Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
After a while and a spontaneous explosion of luck I noticed a list in the back of the Dragonomicon that list every true dragon (P.287) and for some reason I just can't find Kobold is this a mistake? or an error? does this mean that Kobolds don't count as true dragons? I ask because in Races of the Dragon it states that Kobolds have age categories like Dragons... so that MUST make them True Dragons right?
...After a while I hope you realized I was talking cynically
I recommend Cyan for cynicismCult of the Playground est. 2011
Proud owner of 1 internet
Cult of the Playground Highly endorses the ideals of the Tippyverse, World Optimization and "Paradise". its Clerics are encouraged to Optimize everything that they set there sights on. Perfection is our goal.to join simply copy this.
Doctrine
-
2012-06-01, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- Central Florida, USA
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Races was printed after Draconomicon. Hence, they couldn't just errata ALL of the copies of Draconomicon. Think of how much effort that would take. I mean, they'd have to copy the errata of Complete Mage, and-
Ahem. I support Cynical Cyan.Avatar by Ceika.
Steam account. Add me to argue aboutphilosophywhatever!
Advertized Homebrew: Fire Emblem 4's Holy Blood as Bloodlines
Extended Signature.
Using a different color of text for sarcasm is so original.
-
2012-06-01, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
- Location
- The Anauroch (-696 DR)
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Cult of the Playground est. 2011
Proud owner of 1 internet
Cult of the Playground Highly endorses the ideals of the Tippyverse, World Optimization and "Paradise". its Clerics are encouraged to Optimize everything that they set there sights on. Perfection is our goal.to join simply copy this.
Doctrine
-
2012-06-01, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
The list in the back of the Draconomicon is all the true dragons as of its publishing date. They don't need to update the list for every book printed afterward, because there's a blanket statement to categorize all creatures of the dragon type as either true or not:
Originally Posted by Draconomicon page 4Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2012-06-01 at 01:37 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Basically, in order to call a kobold a true dragon, you need to rely on:
* RotD Dragonwrought feat grants dragon type to kobolds.
* Dra p4 defines a true dragon as one that is dragon type and progresses through age categories. Given that any creature not specified as going through dragon-style age categories would logically go through PC-style age categories (general rule applies where not trumped by specific rule), this should imply that only those with dragon-style age categories count.
* Elsewhere in Dra (lost the page reference), a true dragon is defined as one with the dragon type that gains power as it ages.
* RotD p38 notes that kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat don't suffer ageing penalties. This is not mentioned in the feat itself.
* RotD p38 notes that kobolds have dragon-style age categories, but assigns zero game-mechanic effect to these age categories.
* RotD p38 gives conventional (PC-style) age categories for kobolds. These have the standard game-mechanic effects, except for that single-sentence exception for the Dragonwrought feat.
* The Dra index lists all true dragons published to date. As RotD (and its feats) was not yet published, there was no way, at that time, a kobold could become a true dragon or gain the dragon type.
It seems to me that if RAW does allow true dragon kobolds, it is an unintended consequence rather than an intentional design decision.Last edited by Ashtagon; 2012-06-01 at 04:18 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
- Location
- The Anauroch (-696 DR)
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
SpoilerOriginally Posted by Kobolds in the SRD
Hmm... I just can't seem to find where it says that Kobolds age like Dragons and (and gain power as a Dragon would with a pre-set advancement)... However if this is true then a Half-Dragon would qualify as a True Dragon since it technically gains power as it ages...
Mind citing where it states that Kobolds advance through age category (and therefore through Dragon HD)?Last edited by Calanon; 2012-06-01 at 04:51 AM.
Cult of the Playground est. 2011
Proud owner of 1 internet
Cult of the Playground Highly endorses the ideals of the Tippyverse, World Optimization and "Paradise". its Clerics are encouraged to Optimize everything that they set there sights on. Perfection is our goal.to join simply copy this.
Doctrine
-
2012-06-01, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Location
- Tennessee
- Gender
-
2012-06-01, 05:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
A case can be made that the statement in DMG, that a being must be an epic character or NPC to take an epic feat, cannot be "overridden" by Draconomicon saying that a true dragon of Old age or older can take one.
Especially since it doesn't say in Draconomicon "even if it is not an epic character" after that bit.
As it happens, with LA and Hit dice taken into account, the vast majority of True Dragons will be epic characters long before they reach old age.
Except the aforementioned Dragonwrought Kobolds.Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-06-01 at 05:49 AM.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2012-06-01, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Gender
-
2012-06-01, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Draconomicon was printed before RoTD. Like all lists everywhere, it doesn't list things printed after the list was made. This is of no importance.
That is not a requirement in the definition of True Dragon, though. So, it's also of no concern. The only requirements are as follows:
1. Dragon type.
2. Grows more powerful as they grow older.
3. 12 Age categories.
DW kobolds possess all three.
Additionally, they DO advance through age categories. They are subject to aging, like everything else.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2012-06-01 at 07:20 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Like the last time we had this argument, it all comes down to how we define "advance."'
If we define "advance" through its traditional meaning of "move forward," then yes, kobolds qualify, as they advance through age categories (i.e., as they get older, they go through a sequence of age categories).
If we define "advance" as "grow in power," as it typically does in D&D, then kobolds do not qualify, as they do not grow in power due to their age, they advance by character class.
I lean towards the latter.Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 07:20 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Freljord
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
-
2012-06-01, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
-
2012-06-01, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 07:26 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
I actually believe that it was intentional that they become truly draconic. The fluff in the section supports this.
I do not, however, believe that the designers realized that this meant they'd be able to qualify for epic feats at level one, or take obscure options from a setting specific splatbook.
-
2012-06-01, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 07:39 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
When discussing that specific type of advancement, capitalization is used to denotes it being a keyword, as you will note being used consistently in the SRDs discussion of it.
When using it in lowercase, no such specific connotation is present.
-
2012-06-01, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
-
2012-06-01, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
And if they had specified that true dragons have an Advancement: RHD entry, there would be no doubt that this was, in fact, what they meant.
However "advance through age categories" is something else entirely. Hell, the entries in the monster manual slap the age categories next to RHD, and are quite clear. This is not obviously referring to that.
-
2012-06-01, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
-
2012-06-01, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Repeated for emphasis, as it is a requirement not on the above list:
"All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age."
Dragonwrought kobolds may gain greater power (if you can call +3 to all mental stats "greater power"), but they do not gain more abilities. Unless you consider senility and incontinence "abilities."Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 07:49 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Gender
-
2012-06-01, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
They advance through them in the sense of getting older.
Look at it this way, describing someone as being "of advancing age" is a perfectly normal method of saying someone is getting older. Given the context is about age, it's a very reasonable way of parsing the sentence.
Draconomicon trumps the MM in dragon definitions, because it's both a more recent publishing and the primary source on dragons.
In addition, other dragons specifically called out as true dragons fail to meet all of the MM's description, so holding to that is logically contradictory.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2012-06-01 at 07:55 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
It's not a "mental stat," it's a "mental ability." As in, an ability score. You gain more of your abilities, as in, your ability scores increase. And since your ability scores affect your modifiers and save DCs, your power has also increased.
Also, the lack of physical penalties and the presence of mental bonuses would imply that neither senility nor incontinence apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds.
Hell, senility doesn't appear to apply to anyone in D&D. In reality, old age (well, age past prime) is basically purely to one's detriment, as far as both physical and mental abilities go. Experience counts for a fair bit, but experience isn't really supposed to be a part of one's ability scores anyway.
-
2012-06-01, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Can you source where it says that more recent books are considered to be definitive? I'm not actually familiar with that rule. In any case, the Draconomicon does not directly contradict the MM on that point.
And since when has D&D been logically consistent throughout?
That's shaky semantic ground. Their ability scores increase - they do not gain "more abilities". If they gained Luck or Comeliness, then yes, they would be "gaining abilities." I have not come across an example of increasing ability scores being referred to as "gaining abilities" - if you can provide proof, I will rescind my argument.Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 08:11 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
Yes it would make perfect sense to assume that when you talk about something advancing it would mean advancing as in aging, except for the fact that they have a completely separate mechanic called advancement in which they determine how things advance in terms of gaining more power.
Obviously everything ages that's why there is a distinction between the 2.Last edited by Invader; 2012-06-01 at 08:08 AM.
-
2012-06-01, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
That's an interpretation that isn't valid for any true dragon, though. None of them gain additional stats. Therefore, one of the other definitions must be used, ie, either more ability points == more abilities, or it's speaking about something else.
Still, I think the fact that it was superceded by a newer definition of true dragons is more relevant.
There is. And that's why they use the term Advancement to describe RHD and stuff, and advancement for general, normal use.
The True Dragon bit uses the term "advancement".
-
2012-06-01, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
-
2012-06-01, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Maryland
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
That is a quite legitimate reading, yes. I suspect myself that they were using it in a fairly general way to mean "new capabilities".
The parsing between keywords and general language is the source of a few conflicts in D&D, certainly...I do hope they'll be more clear about such things in future versions.
-
2012-06-01, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Location
- Cascadia
- Gender
Re: Kobolds counting as True Dragons [Dragonomicon & Races of the Dragons]
I enjoy it, honestly. I consider D&D to be the best legal education money can't buy.
Last edited by Gnorman; 2012-06-01 at 08:25 AM.