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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Well, I'm mostly tried to err on the side of caution. Many feats have secondary purposes, which is why even the terrible ones don't have a negligible cost. And I tried working from the assumption that the people taking the feat are the people most likely to benefit from it.
    There is no side of caution. Overvalue a bunch of feats, and the rest end up undervalued relative to them.

    So... while feats vary in value a lot, by trying to aim on the higher end of that range (maybe at the 75% mark), we end up with costs that are reasonable for some, a good deal for some, a bad deal for some, but unlikely to be particularly abusive except in extremely specialized builds. And people can pick and choose around the ones that are bad deals for any given character, since there'll likely be others that are better deals now that costs are lower on average.

    It's a problem, you're right, but I don't think it's a big one. And it's certainly better than the current system which effectively assigns each feat a value of 10.
    How do you know that? The exact same issues exist with the current system true, but how do you demonstrate that in the end, your system is better?

    Let's consider my current char that I'm playing. He's an Incantatrix, with a number of metamagics and iron will(class prereq). He's....well on the high end of the optimization curve.

    Iron Will...only costs 7/10ths of a feat now. Awesome. Less expensive for me to get into my critical PrC.

    Empower. Also only 7/10ths of a feat. More winning.

    Maximize. Also only 7/10ths

    I didn't bother with quicken, since I save my swift actions for abrupt jaunt. Now, the rest of my feats are non-core, so I can't say what they'll end up costing, but it's pretty clear that this system makes my high-powered build more broken, not less so.

    Power attack still crushes TWF, too.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    There is no side of caution. Overvalue a bunch of feats, and the rest end up undervalued relative to them.



    How do you know that? The exact same issues exist with the current system true, but how do you demonstrate that in the end, your system is better?

    Let's consider my current char that I'm playing. He's an Incantatrix, with a number of metamagics and iron will(class prereq). He's....well on the high end of the optimization curve.

    Iron Will...only costs 7/10ths of a feat now. Awesome. Less expensive for me to get into my critical PrC.

    Empower. Also only 7/10ths of a feat. More winning.

    Maximize. Also only 7/10ths

    I didn't bother with quicken, since I save my swift actions for abrupt jaunt. Now, the rest of my feats are non-core, so I can't say what they'll end up costing, but it's pretty clear that this system makes my high-powered build more broken, not less so.

    Power attack still crushes TWF, too.
    I've said repeatedly - specialized characters can expect to find things along their specialty that are good deals for them. That's the nature of specialization, and not a strike against the point system. The problem here is not that Empower and Maximize are undercosted, just that metamagic reduction in general and Incantatrix in particular are simply too good. And Incantatrix is already widely known as a potential trouble spot, and is beyond the scope of a feat point system to correct. Take metamagic reduction out of the equation (or at least make the feat-based ones dear indeed), and I think it works out reasonably well.

    And really, what are you suggesting? That this is somehow worse than the level ground we started from? I think you're far from establishing that. Feats people picked up before are still going to be popular, but several users have posted already looking at lower-costed feats as suddenly more viable alternatives. This isn't going to knock the really awesome ones off their pedestal, except potentially a few known issues like Greenbound Summoning, Arcane Thesis, Divine Metamagic, etc. And even then they'll still probably be worth picking up for the appropriate builds. But by at least narrowing the gap between the awesome feats and the sucky feats, it helps expand options and gives motivation to scrounge around a little more off the beaten path of the old favorites. I think it accomplishes what it set out to do, and helps feat-starved melee classes more than it helps T1's.


    All that said, I think Empower/Maximize are a bit under-priced right now. I might move them up to 8. Any thoughts?


    (As a side note, it looks like the new average price ends up around 8.5 in SKR's pricing, and maybe closer to 7 for mine, meaning all those feats your character chose are merely average rather than discounts.)
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    I've said repeatedly - specialized characters can expect to find things along their specialty that are good deals for them. That's the nature of specialization, and not a strike against the point system. The problem here is not that Empower and Maximize are undercosted, just that metamagic reduction in general and Incantatrix in particular are simply too good. And Incantatrix is already widely known as a potential trouble spot, and is beyond the scope of a feat point system to correct. Take metamagic reduction out of the equation (or at least make the feat-based ones dear indeed), and I think it works out reasonably well.
    But it's making already good builds STRONGER.

    This is not indicative of something that improves balance.

    And really, what are you suggesting?
    That a set of homebrewed rules needs to provide some clear benefit over not using them to justify their existence.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    But it's making already good builds STRONGER.

    This is not indicative of something that improves balance.
    Does it make it that much stronger? I mean, it's not like you weren't going to get those feats anyway. You'll have enough feats to get your core concept off the ground either way, and anything you pick up with the odd little remainders is almost by necessity going to be a lower priority and hence less relevant.

    And you're still using a rather specific build that's both T1 and benefits from higher feat availability more than most. My experience thus far is that most T1's don't really have to care all that much about feats, since most feats have less effect than most spells, and there's always spells like Heroics that outright grant feats. A Barbarian's likely going to need three or four feats to do what they want to do, and often five or six if they don't want to be a one-trick pony, but a Wizard often only really needs a couple... and many Wizards don't even need that. And it's been often said that all a Druid needs is Natural Spell and perhaps Augment Summoning. Only some T1 characters really need that much in the way of feats, but virtually all T4 and below need as many as they can get.

    There's exceptions of course, and if you'd asked I would have described metamagic specialists as one of those, but on the whole I think non-magical classes get a slightly better deal here, sheerly from increased overall availability.

    That a set of homebrewed rules needs to provide some clear benefit over not using them to justify their existence.
    "It makes weaker feats more viable as options, and hence increases the potential variety and nuance of character builds".

    Even if you dispute whether feat availability helps weaker classes more, I think it should be pretty hard to argue with this claim.
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-06-12 at 10:27 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Does it make it that much stronger? I mean, it's not like you weren't going to get those feats anyway. You'll have enough feats to get your core concept off the ground either way, and anything you pick up with the odd little remainders is almost by necessity going to be a lower priority and hence less relevant.
    The "odd remainders" are .9 of a feat. So, that's kind of relevant, as most additional metamagics are less than that.

    Also, in this particular case, Skill Focus(Spellcraft) is actually quite helpful, due to several incantatrix abilities running off them. Both this and Improved Init are things that my current build lacks, but could afford to add with these changes, and would make me demonstratably stronger.

    And you're still using a rather specific build that's both T1 and benefits from higher feat availability more than most. My experience thus far is that most T1's don't really have to care all that much about feats, since most feats have less effect than most spells, and there's always spells like Heroics that outright grant feats. A Barbarian's likely going to need three or four feats to do what they want to do, and often five or six if they don't want to be a one-trick pony, but a Wizard often only really needs a couple... and many Wizards don't even need that. And it's been often said that all a Druid needs is Natural Spell and perhaps Augment Summoning. Only some T1 characters really need that much in the way of feats, but virtually all T4 and below need as many as they can get.
    Adding extra feats to a wizard does a great deal more than adding extra feats to a fighter.

    Also, good point on the fact that heroics interacts terribly with this feat system.

    There's exceptions of course, and if you'd asked I would have described metamagic specialists as one of those, but on the whole I think non-magical classes get a slightly better deal here, sheerly from increased overall availability.


    "It makes weaker feats more viable as options, and hence increases the potential variety and nuance of character builds".

    Even if you dispute whether feat availability helps weaker classes more, I think it should be pretty hard to argue with this claim.
    Feat availability helps classes with less feats more. Fighter already has a giant pile of feats. He's not great even with them. Adding another feat or two to fighter does not make them catch up in tier.

    Adding a feat or two to any tier 1 is like optimization crack.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    In defense of this exercise, feats already have relative value. And that relative value leads to many feats never being used (or only being used by people unaware of better options). By enumerating those values and enumerating the feat-granting system, we should be able to get a better distribution of power, and see more interesting things at the gaming table. It would also indirectly serve as a guide to what feats are powerful.

    Tyndmyr makes a valid point when he says that an alternate system is not a significant improvement if it further vamps up already-strong builds.

    The tier system could be of help here. Tier 1 classes should accumulate feat points more slowly than other classes. Tier 5 classes should accumulate them more quickly. [Note: Changing the accumulation rate by tier is better than changing the purchase price per tier because it accounts for multi-classing.]

    So let's continue to tinker with the relative value of feats as best we can, and later we can add a system of feat point accumulation rates per tier as an alternate rule.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2012-06-12 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Not to distract from the primary goal of assigning point values to feats, I propose that 1 feat point can be used to buy 3 skill points (and thereby skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel) but not vice versa, to give more interesting options to skill-point-starved classes. These would be normal skill points, subject to normal skill point caps.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    Not to distract from the primary goal of assigning point values to feats, I propose that 1 feat point can be used to buy 3 skill points ...
    There's already the Open Minded feat from Complete Adventurer:
    Benefit: You immediately gain 5 skill points.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    (As a side note, it looks like the new average price ends up around 8.5 in SKR's pricing, and maybe closer to 7 for mine, meaning all those feats your character chose are merely average rather than discounts.)
    May I suggest possibly moving the average up a bit then? Maybe increase everything by the same percentage so the average comes out to around 9? That might help Tyndmyr's concerns.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by demigodus View Post
    May I suggest possibly moving the average up a bit then? Maybe increase everything by the same percentage so the average comes out to around 9? That might help Tyndmyr's concerns.
    That would also defeat much of the purpose of this revamp. Most feats just aren't that good, and the prices should fairly reflect their real worth.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    I think that the best way to look at this is by looking at examples.

    Here is a standard elf wizard 5 randomly generated at mythweavers.

    Hemil, male elf Abjurer5: CR 5; Size M (5 ft., 5 in. tall);
    HD 5d4+5; hp 20; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 14; Attack +1
    melee, or +6 ranged; SV Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +5; AL NG; Str
    8, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 13.

    Languages Spoken: Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnome, Sylvan.

    Skills and feats: Hide +4, Knowledge (Arcana) +11,
    Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) +8, Knowledge
    (Geography) +10, Knowledge (Nature) +9, Knowledge (Religion)
    +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Search +5, Spellcraft +10,
    Spot +3; Craft Wand, Enlarge Spell, [Scribe Scroll], Silent
    Spell.


    Possessions: 4,300 gp in gear.

    Prohibited Schools: Enchantment, Conjuration.

    Wizard Spells Known (4/4+1/3+1/2+1): 0th -- Arcane Mark,
    Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead,
    Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message,
    Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic,
    Resistance, Touch of Fatigue. 1st -- Endure Elements, Hold
    Portal, Magic Missile, Protection from Chaos, Shield,
    Ventriloquism. 2nd -- Arcane Lock, Bull's Strength, Minor
    Image, Obscure Object, Protection from Arrows, See
    Invisibility. 3rd -- Haste, Keen Edge.

    These are the points for the feats in the revised system:
    Craft Wand - 6
    Enlarge Spell - 7
    Scribe Scroll - 6
    Silent Spell - 7
    Total - 26

    A 5th level wizard gains 10 points for being a 1st level character, 10 points for a bonus wizard feat at 1st, 10 points for a character feat at 3rd and 10 points for a bonus wizard feat at 5th. That's 40 points. This leaves the 5th level wizard with 14 extra points to spend if we keep the existing feats as they are.

    Brew Potion is cheap at 4 points so I'd take it as a handy add on for those times when you know you're going up against a specific foe and can create consumable bolster items. There's even enough left over for another metamagic feat and a skill boost feat. i.e. Heighten Spell - 6 and Alertness (if for some reason you don't choose to have a familiar) - 4. I'd probably choose Combat casting though.

    Brew Potion - 4
    Combat Casting - 4
    Craft Wand - 6
    Enlarge Spell - 7
    Heighten Spell - 6
    Scribe Scroll - 6
    Silent Spell - 7
    Total - 40

    This isn't a game killer but it does give a nice boost but the standard wizard still has nearly twice as many feats under this new system.

    If we assume that these rules apply to the whole world then wizards will be much more likely to take metamagic and item creation feats as well as those feats that improve their survivability. That means that magic items will be more common with even middling spellcasters and hedge wizards having basic item creation abilities.

    Almost every feat is cheaper than 10 points (what a feat would cost in the existing rules) so we should expect characters to always have around 40% to 60% more feats. Fighter types will meet the prerequisites for great feats like Improved Trip faster which makes combat more challenging.

    I could live with that. As long as the rules apply to everyone it just makes a more interesting game though one that is necessarily not low magic.

    Interestingly making a low magic game is easier this way because all you have to do is bump up the point costs for item creation feats. That makes them rarer automatically without having to up the XP or GP costs involved or just declaring magic items to be rare.

    Here is my concern though. The difference between characters of different levels is further exaggerated. Sure a 5th level wizard is tougher than a 4th level wizard but in addition to his third level spell slot he now has a couple of extra feats. This probably translates better between fighters of one level difference. Try some examples and see how the power difference is exacerbated.

    It is like the olden days of 1e when a fighter of level 7 gained an extra attack and was suddenly significantly better than a character of one level lower. To balance this I might suggest having the average point cost at 10 rather than at 6 or 7.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    hoverfrog - your calculations are a bit off. Going by SKR's system, the Wizard just gets Scribe Scroll at lvl 1, not an extra 10 feat points. They only get feat points if they're taking the Fighter Bonus Feat variant. So your basic Wizard is working off 30 points, plus Scribe Scroll on top of that. Not that it's a big change, but it's still four points down.


    Personally, my inclination is to change the system so that you start with perhaps 12 points at lvl 1, and gain 3 each level after that. This adds granularity to the process, and avoids SKR's little "feat point debt" subsystem. It also reduces a bit of the gap between my costs and the former average. Classes that get bonus feats off a decently open list at regular intervals (Fighters, Wizards, Scouts, Warblades, etc) instead gain a certain number of feat points every level, adding into a separate pool that can only be used off their bonus feat list. I think Wizards (bonus feats every 5 levels) will only gain +1. Scouts and Warblades (every 4 levels) would get +2. Fighters (every 2 levels) would probably get +4. The general rule of thumb being, "whatever number leaves them closest to but still less than 10 in the relevant interval". Of course, Fighters being Fighters I may try to sneak them in at +5. It's a work in progress, but assigning values to feats is the most arduous step.

    This is all speculative though
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    hoverfrog - your calculations are a bit off. Going by SKR's system, the Wizard just gets Scribe Scroll at lvl 1, not an extra 10 feat points. They only get feat points if they're taking the Fighter Bonus Feat variant. So your basic Wizard is working off 30 points, plus Scribe Scroll on top of that. Not that it's a big change, but it's still four points down.
    So wait, instead of taking Scribe Scroll, you could take a the ACF, get ten feat points, spend six feat points on Scribe Scroll, and come out a net four feat points ahead?

    This seems like a problem.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So wait, instead of taking Scribe Scroll, you could take a the ACF, get ten feat points, spend six feat points on Scribe Scroll, and come out a net four feat points ahead?

    This seems like a problem.
    No. By SKR's, if you take the ACF, you gain 10 FP... but they go into a separate pool. You can only spend those 10 on Fighter Bonus Feats. Which doesn't include "Scribe Scroll", last I checked.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    No. By SKR's, if you take the ACF, you gain 10 FP... but they go into a separate pool. You can only spend those 10 on Fighter Bonus Feats. Which doesn't include "Scribe Scroll", last I checked.
    They can only be used on fighter bonus feats, true, but this still means that any build that uses fighter bonus feats at all can suddenly gain extra feat points without trading away anything. Say, an orb user who is going to get the ranged feats anyway.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They can only be used on fighter bonus feats, true, but this still means that any build that uses fighter bonus feats at all can suddenly gain extra feat points without trading away anything. Say, an orb user who is going to get the ranged feats anyway.
    I think the popular thing to do is to drop it on Improved Initiative. I haven't seen many Wizards taking ranged feats; PBS is a bit of a waste, Rapid Shot and Multishot don't do much, and Far Shot is pretty meaningless. Precise Shot is nice, but that's about it and even it's not that necessary when working from Touch Attacks.

    But really, the Fighter's getting more mileage out of this whole thing than anyone else. With FP up the wazoo, and a whole lot of feats now becoming fairly good bargains, their options are going to expand more dramatically than anyone else's. Rather than just picking up a line or two, they can invest in all sorts of options and situational maneuvers while still picking up everything they need for their focus.

    Everyone benefits from higher feat availability, including Wizards. But the ones that benefit most from this method are feat-starved classes, and classes that would (under my proposed shift above) gain larger numbers of FP every level. Using the tentative numbers I gave, this puts Fighters as definite winners, Scouts and Warblades coming out with only a marginal advantage relative to other classes, and Wizards actually suffering a bit.



    That does bring up a point though - ACFs that interact with feats in significant ways might get a little wonky, especially things that trade away Bonus Feats for actual class features, like many Fighter ACFs do.

    Any suggestion?
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Personally, my inclination is to change the system so that you start with perhaps 12 points at lvl 1, and gain 3 each level after that. This adds granularity to the process, and avoids SKR's little "feat point debt" subsystem.
    That would help the leaps of power problem that I mentioned earlier too. Characters would gain feats at whatever level they accumulated enough points for rather than two or even three when they hit a bonus feat level.

    I'd love to see a D&D system where abilities and race are points base and level increases are also points based. i.e. you have X number of points to buy hit dice, special abilities, feats, spell ability, etc so that you could customize your character completely. I doubt if it is possible though as D&D isn't really that kind of system. You'd need to break it and rebuild it and then it would be a very different system.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    That would also defeat much of the purpose of this revamp. Most feats just aren't that good, and the prices should fairly reflect their real worth.
    Oh? Is much of the purpose to more or less globally increase the number of feats characters get, even optimized characters with nothing but good feats get?

    Because if not then increasing all the costs by the same ratio, say 50% so 4 becomes 6 and 10 becomes 15 leaves the relative cost ratio is the same and leaves the lower cost feat AT LEAST as much more attractive as the base system.

    One very basic problem with the feat point idea as its being discussed here is that each CURRENT feat is being converted to 10 points, and 10 points is basically being defined as "absolutely must take overpowered feat".

    This means it's a nearly global power-up, almost any character will take a few lower than 10 feats (prerequisites if nothing else), and the only feat suggested for more than 10 is Leadership.

    A Druid with Spell-Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Natural Spell hasn't taken anything but his best three feats, and yet he STILL gets 3 extra feat points from this system to "compensate" him for the terrible loss of taking such sub-par feats!

    Either the conversion rate needs to be less than 10 per feat (7 or so say), or the feat costs need to be globally higher, or this is simply a global powerup which helps overpowered characters as much or more than anyone else (probably more in practice, the overpowered characters mostly have players willing to do the research, and this is a more complicated system).

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Oh? Is much of the purpose to more or less globally increase the number of feats characters get, even optimized characters with nothing but good feats get?
    No, it's not. That's why I suggested 12 points for Daring Outlaw, which is a good multiclassing feat. I think 10 points for Power Attack is too low, and I'd put Heighten spell at 10 points because it does something other metamagic feats can't: change the actual spell level instead of just the slot. Unique effects, when they can be leveraged in combination with other feats, tend to be have greater worth than would be apparent when considering the feat in isolation.

    So yes, the purpose is to increase the number of feats characters get when you consider the thousands of poor feats available in the game, but the purpose should not be to globally increase the number of good feats a character can take.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    That does bring up a point though - ACFs that interact with feats in significant ways might get a little wonky, especially things that trade away Bonus Feats for actual class features, like many Fighter ACFs do.
    Any suggestion?
    Well, since you are going to the trouble of assigning value to feats, you might also consider alternative feat points for a class. You could say that at each level a Fighter would gain 7 feat points, a Rogue 5 feat points and a Wizard 3 feat points. Bonus feats would give you a preset number of points. PrCs feat points would be determined by the entry class. This could be wonky in the case of a multi-classing, but I dunno.
    None of the numbers I suggested are set in stone, merely there to represent the idea.

    Alternatively as a way to manage the issue of multi-classing and PrCs, you might say that at each level a character gains a minimum of 2 Feat Points and gains additional points based on their class.
    Fighter +5
    Rogue +3
    Wizard +1
    Any PrC +1
    Last edited by Waker; 2012-06-13 at 02:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Alternatively as a way to manage the issue of multi-classing and PrCs, you might say that at each level a character gains a minimum of 2 Feat Points and gains additional points based on their class.
    Fighter +5
    Rogue +3
    Wizard +1
    Any PrC +1
    If you base it on tier, you won't have to evaluate every class. Maybe use your 'pre-prestige' average for any prestige class levels.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2012-06-13 at 04:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    If you base it on tier, you won't have to evaluate every class. Maybe use your 'pre-prestige' average for any prestige class levels.
    Has some potential. What about classes that straddle tiers?
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    There's already the Open Minded feat from Complete Adventurer:
    Benefit: You immediately gain 5 skill points.
    A fair note, but what should that feat cost in this feat point system? 2 feat points?

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    Has some potential. What about classes that straddle tiers?
    Just pick one, taking chosen ACFs into account.

    Addition:
    Quote Originally Posted by Waker but edited by Fitz10019
    Alternatively as a way to manage the issue of multi-classing and PrCs, you might say that at each level a character gains a minimum of 2 Feat Points and gains additional points based on their class.
    Tier 5: +5
    Tier 3: +3
    Tier 1:+1
    or simply Tier #: +#
    Any PrC +[average tier of non-PrC levels]
    I like this better than my earlier suggestion. With this approach, the time of purchase does not matter.
    Last edited by Fitz10019; 2012-06-13 at 04:43 PM. Reason: expansion

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by hoverfrog View Post
    I'd love to see a D&D system where abilities and race are points base and level increases are also points based. i.e. you have X number of points to buy hit dice, special abilities, feats, spell ability, etc so that you could customize your character completely. I doubt if it is possible though as D&D isn't really that kind of system. You'd need to break it and rebuild it and then it would be a very different system.
    There's always Mutants & Masterminds for this. It does fantasy pretty well and has a book devoted to Sword and Sorcery (Warriors and Warlocks).

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    A fair note, but what should that feat cost in this feat point system? 2 feat points?
    If it's a balanced feat, it should cost whatever the average feat is worth. That looks like around 7 points.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz10019 View Post
    A fair note, but what should that feat cost in this feat point system? 2 feat points?
    That's a bit low. 5 skill points is...about on par with the +2/+2 feats normally. It's an additional +1, but you can't use it to go over skill point caps. On the plus side, it has somewhat more flexiblity in allocation....but it works much worse for non-class skills.

    It's probably about the same as a good +2/+2 feat. It's definitely inferior to something like Open Minded.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That's a bit low. 5 skill points is...about on par with the +2/+2 feats normally. It's an additional +1, but you can't use it to go over skill point caps. On the plus side, it has somewhat more flexiblity in allocation....but it works much worse for non-class skills.

    It's probably about the same as a good +2/+2 feat. It's definitely inferior to something like Open Minded.
    On the other hand, there's a number of things in the game that do require actual ranks (PrCs, some class features, Synergy bonuses), and "Open-Minded" is a big help there. It's also great if you're multiclassing and want to pump a new class skill that your old class didn't have. I'd call it 5 points at least. One FP = one HP = one skillpoint. I think that's a reasonable exchange rate, honestly.
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    On the other hand, there's a number of things in the game that do require actual ranks (PrCs, some class features, Synergy bonuses), and "Open-Minded" is a big help there.
    How is Open Minded more helpful there? Its benefit is skill points, not skill ranks.
    Benefit: You immediately gain 5 skill points. Spend these skill points as normal. You cannot exceed the normal maximum ranks for your level in any skill.

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    How is Open Minded more helpful there? Its benefit is skill points, not skill ranks.
    It is helpful if you are trying to get into a PrC that has more skill reqs then how many you have skill points to spare on?

    So it could help a low int non-human character in a 2 skills/level class qualify on time for a PrC that requires, say, 8 ranks in 3 or 4 different skills.

    So VERY conditionally.
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