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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by demigodus View Post
    It is helpful if you are trying to get into a PrC that has more skill reqs then how many you have skill points to spare on?

    So it could help a low int non-human character in a 2 skills/level class qualify on time for a PrC that requires, say, 8 ranks in 3 or 4 different skills.

    So VERY conditionally.
    Even on characters with a few more skillpoints jangling around, there's often a few skills they intend to use often that need to be high. Once you've got a few demands on your points already, spending outside that to meet PrC requirements can be burdensome.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by demigodus View Post
    It is helpful if you are trying to get into a PrC that has more skill reqs then how many you have skill points to spare on?

    So it could help a low int non-human character in a 2 skills/level class qualify on time for a PrC that requires, say, 8 ranks in 3 or 4 different skills.

    So VERY conditionally.
    That's...pretty marginal. And probably a really unefficient build. Skill point-based prereqs tend to correlate to expected entry classes, so your fighter, etc PrCs tend to be more feat heavy, and less skill point heavy.

    Additionally, racial paragon classes tend to fix this significantly more efficiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    On the other hand, there's a number of things in the game that do require actual ranks (PrCs, some class features, Synergy bonuses), and "Open-Minded" is a big help there. It's also great if you're multiclassing and want to pump a new class skill that your old class didn't have. I'd call it 5 points at least. One FP = one HP = one skillpoint. I think that's a reasonable exchange rate, honestly.
    This means that Improved Toughness, at level 20, is worth 20 feat points, and is one of the best feats in game. This is...not really true. So, that math should get tossed.

    Meeting skill prereqs is rarely hard, and very rarely is Open Minded a good way to do it. The worst examples are things like unusual entries into Mindbender...but those are painful because they're not class skills. Open Minded is pretty bad at fixing that.

    Additionally, pumping a new class skill can also be done via +2/+2 feats. And frankly, those work on non-class skills too. It's much more flexible. The main advantage is the 1 extra skill point, and there's a LOT of tradeoff for it.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This means that Improved Toughness, at level 20, is worth 20 feat points, and is one of the best feats in game. This is...not really true. So, that math should get tossed.
    Well, hp are a bit odd in that the value of X hp changes significantly over time. At lvl 1-3, heck, +20 hp is huge. It might not be worth 20 FP, but it's up there. At a 1-1 exchange rate, and my tentative starting values, a 1st level character dumping their FP into hp gets +12, which is a sizeable chunk of survivability when housecats are a lethal threat to everyone else. However, the value of that +12 hp goes down significantly as you level, until it's practically irrelevant by lvl 20.

    Going by my rule of thumb that the pricing assumes that players are reasonably intelligent (an indefensible position, really, but a useful working point), any price for a static amount of hp should be based on the context of low-level characters. And I think a 1:1 ratio is reasonable if a little conservative, but I like to err on the side of conservativeness.

    Of course, as I implied above, ideally any feat-based source of hp should scale with level like Improved Toughness.

    Meeting skill prereqs is rarely hard, and very rarely is Open Minded a good way to do it. The worst examples are things like unusual entries into Mindbender...but those are painful because they're not class skills. Open Minded is pretty bad at fixing that.

    Additionally, pumping a new class skill can also be done via +2/+2 feats. And frankly, those work on non-class skills too. It's much more flexible. The main advantage is the 1 extra skill point, and there's a LOT of tradeoff for it.
    I wouldn't compare Open-Minded to the +2/+2 feats at all, given how narrowly specific they are. I think Skill Focus is a much better comparison, especially since Open Minded skillpoints are generally all going to get dumped into the same skill. And a +5 into a skill is worth a heck of a lot more than a +2, or even a +3.

    That said, yeah, there's a bunch of limitations. It's still a reasonable feat, though. I've ended up taking it on at least three characters, to shore up various skills.
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    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Could I propose going farther? How about each class gets a certain number of feat points per level? Fighters get a bunch, like 15, Wizards get like 3, Samurai get 1000000000. You can buy any feat you can afford, whenever you want. Wizards would replace their bonus feats with: "Bonus Feat: At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, a Wizard gains a metamagic, item creation or reserve feat worth 10 or less Feat Points"

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    I'm guessing that giving the Samurai a billion feat points is going to actually kick it up to tier 2-3.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguenewb View Post
    Bonus Feat: At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, a Wizard gains 10 Feat Points, which can only be spent for metamagic, item creation or reserve feats
    this way it works better

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Roguenewb View Post
    Could I propose going farther? How about each class gets a certain number of feat points per level? Fighters get a bunch, like 15, Wizards get like 3, Samurai get 1000000000. You can buy any feat you can afford, whenever you want. Wizards would replace their bonus feats with: "Bonus Feat: At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, a Wizard gains a metamagic, item creation or reserve feat worth 10 or less Feat Points"
    I would fold the bonus feats for wizards and fighters and the like into the same X points per level mechanism. You can make this a separate reserve of "fighter feat points" and "wizard feat points" that must be spent on "appropriate" feats, but I don't see any real gain.

    Wizards get 5 bonus feats, they're off a limited list, eliminate them entirely and given them an extra 2 feat points per level (which is what they get if those 5 feats average 8 feat points). A smart wizard will be taking metamagic, item creation, or reserve feats, so what's the point in limiting them.

    You gave a wizard 3 feat points, add the two for his "bonus" and a Wizard gets 5 feat points a level, and we eliminate the bonus feats and scribe scroll. (Maybe with a small bonus at level 1 to make starting with scribe scroll easier.)

    Similarly, a fighter gets 11 bonus feats, they'll probably average a fairly functional 7 points or so, so give the fighter an extra 4 feat points a level (plus the bunch extra they need to not suck, plus whatever your baseline is). 15 a level is probably fine (it will still be lower tier than a wizard, this isn't going to balance the classes unless you use "feats that give level 9 casting" types of cheeze).

    DougL

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    I'm guessing that giving the Samurai a billion feat points is going to actually kick it up to tier 2-3.
    At first I was going to say low tier 3 at best with the caveat of restricting him to 1 of a particular feat per level, so no billion hp toughness boost.

    Then I remembered about Complete Champion, Magic of Incarnum and all those feats.

    7 sp, +3 to a skill, d10+4hp, a soulmeld, weapon focus, an extra use of every devotion feat, a martial stance at every level is probably tier 3 by itself

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Of course, as I implied above, ideally any feat-based source of hp should scale with level like Improved Toughness.
    What would you think of this?

    Lingering Toughness: If you take this feat at 1st level, you gain 3 hit points. Upon attaining 2nd and 3rd levels, you gain 2 additional hit points each. Thereafter, you gain 1 hit point per level. If you take this feat at a later level, gain hit points as if you had had it since level 1.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    What would you think of this?

    Lingering Toughness: If you take this feat at 1st level, you gain 3 hit points. Upon attaining 2nd and 3rd levels, you gain 2 additional hit points each. Thereafter, you gain 1 hit point per level. If you take this feat at a later level, gain hit points as if you had had it since level 1.
    I think, why not just stick with "Improved Toughness"? That's a nice middle-of-the-road feat already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
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    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    I think, why not just stick with "Improved Toughness"? That's a nice middle-of-the-road feat already.
    I'm not sure adding 2 more HP makes it any more worth a feat. I like the idea of gaining extra benefit every level throughout your career. Compare Lingering Toughness to Psionic Body or Incarnum-Fortified Body, which are much more powerful but restricted to characters that are heavy into psionics and incarnum respectively.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I'm not sure adding 2 more HP makes it any more worth a feat. I like the idea of gaining extra benefit every level throughout your career. Compare Lingering Toughness to Psionic Body or Incarnum-Fortified Body, which are much more powerful but restricted to characters that are heavy into psionics and incarnum respectively.
    Bhuh?

    Improved Toughness isn't +5hp, it's +1 hp/lvl. Complete Warrior. Doesn't even require Toughness, just a fairly trivial base Fort save.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    I was confused, I thought it was the thing SKR had made up that gave 5 HP.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    What do you do about feats that combine two feats in one? Obviously, it should cost less than the two feats individually because it is more specialized, (probably.) But how much less?

    Would Hand Crossbow Focus cost, say, 10? What about a really bomb feat like Craven or Dead-Eye?
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    What do you do about feats that combine two feats in one? Obviously, it should cost less than the two feats individually because it is more specialized, (probably.) But how much less?

    Would Hand Crossbow Focus cost, say, 10? What about a really bomb feat like Craven or Dead-Eye?
    Weapon Focus is 7 already; Hand Crossbow Focus could be 9 or 10, yes. "Really bomb feats" in general should be 10. A few that are significantly abusive or otherwise excessively powerful (like Leadership) should be more, but that's fairly rare. DMM:Persist might qualify. Possibly Arcane Thesis as well. Dragonwrought too, depending on DM interpretation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Since Toughness costs 3 points, a 1 for 1 HP trade, why not just give players the option of spending leftover feat points on HP at a 1 for 1 trade? Whether that is 2 or 4 feat points leftover? Toughness could still exist as a 3 coster for pre-reqs, I suppose.

    If you don't do '3 feat points a level' but follow the original mechanic, some people may feel forced to spend all or most their feat points since, say, they aren't going to play to level 9 so their excess points will be wasted. It gives something, anyways.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ View Post
    Since Toughness costs 3 points, a 1 for 1 HP trade, why not just give players the option of spending leftover feat points on HP at a 1 for 1 trade? Whether that is 2 or 4 feat points leftover? Toughness could still exist as a 3 coster for pre-reqs, I suppose.

    If you don't do '3 feat points a level' but follow the original mechanic, some people may feel forced to spend all or most their feat points since, say, they aren't going to play to level 9 so their excess points will be wasted. It gives something, anyways.
    I'm perfectly fine with that idea. I never really got around to drafting an "official" version of my variant. The only thing of note here is the table (arguably the hardest part of the whole thing), which is hopefully much-improved over SKR's, and is useable with both SKR's version and your own variations thereof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    SonOfZeal, it is a great joy to see that your Kung-Fu remains undiminished in this, the twilight of an age. May the Great Wheel be kind to you, planeswalker.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

    So how many points is Arcane Thesis (Animate Thread)?
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