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Thread: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
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2012-06-14, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
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2012-06-15, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
That's...pretty marginal. And probably a really unefficient build. Skill point-based prereqs tend to correlate to expected entry classes, so your fighter, etc PrCs tend to be more feat heavy, and less skill point heavy.
Additionally, racial paragon classes tend to fix this significantly more efficiently.
This means that Improved Toughness, at level 20, is worth 20 feat points, and is one of the best feats in game. This is...not really true. So, that math should get tossed.
Meeting skill prereqs is rarely hard, and very rarely is Open Minded a good way to do it. The worst examples are things like unusual entries into Mindbender...but those are painful because they're not class skills. Open Minded is pretty bad at fixing that.
Additionally, pumping a new class skill can also be done via +2/+2 feats. And frankly, those work on non-class skills too. It's much more flexible. The main advantage is the 1 extra skill point, and there's a LOT of tradeoff for it.
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2012-06-15, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
Well, hp are a bit odd in that the value of X hp changes significantly over time. At lvl 1-3, heck, +20 hp is huge. It might not be worth 20 FP, but it's up there. At a 1-1 exchange rate, and my tentative starting values, a 1st level character dumping their FP into hp gets +12, which is a sizeable chunk of survivability when housecats are a lethal threat to everyone else. However, the value of that +12 hp goes down significantly as you level, until it's practically irrelevant by lvl 20.
Going by my rule of thumb that the pricing assumes that players are reasonably intelligent (an indefensible position, really, but a useful working point), any price for a static amount of hp should be based on the context of low-level characters. And I think a 1:1 ratio is reasonable if a little conservative, but I like to err on the side of conservativeness.
Of course, as I implied above, ideally any feat-based source of hp should scale with level like Improved Toughness.
Meeting skill prereqs is rarely hard, and very rarely is Open Minded a good way to do it. The worst examples are things like unusual entries into Mindbender...but those are painful because they're not class skills. Open Minded is pretty bad at fixing that.
Additionally, pumping a new class skill can also be done via +2/+2 feats. And frankly, those work on non-class skills too. It's much more flexible. The main advantage is the 1 extra skill point, and there's a LOT of tradeoff for it.
That said, yeah, there's a bunch of limitations. It's still a reasonable feat, though. I've ended up taking it on at least three characters, to shore up various skills.
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2012-07-05, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
Could I propose going farther? How about each class gets a certain number of feat points per level? Fighters get a bunch, like 15, Wizards get like 3, Samurai get 1000000000. You can buy any feat you can afford, whenever you want. Wizards would replace their bonus feats with: "Bonus Feat: At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20, a Wizard gains a metamagic, item creation or reserve feat worth 10 or less Feat Points"
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2012-07-05, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
I'm guessing that giving the Samurai a billion feat points is going to actually kick it up to tier 2-3.
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2012-07-05, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2012-07-05, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
I would fold the bonus feats for wizards and fighters and the like into the same X points per level mechanism. You can make this a separate reserve of "fighter feat points" and "wizard feat points" that must be spent on "appropriate" feats, but I don't see any real gain.
Wizards get 5 bonus feats, they're off a limited list, eliminate them entirely and given them an extra 2 feat points per level (which is what they get if those 5 feats average 8 feat points). A smart wizard will be taking metamagic, item creation, or reserve feats, so what's the point in limiting them.
You gave a wizard 3 feat points, add the two for his "bonus" and a Wizard gets 5 feat points a level, and we eliminate the bonus feats and scribe scroll. (Maybe with a small bonus at level 1 to make starting with scribe scroll easier.)
Similarly, a fighter gets 11 bonus feats, they'll probably average a fairly functional 7 points or so, so give the fighter an extra 4 feat points a level (plus the bunch extra they need to not suck, plus whatever your baseline is). 15 a level is probably fine (it will still be lower tier than a wizard, this isn't going to balance the classes unless you use "feats that give level 9 casting" types of cheeze).
DougL
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2012-07-06, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
At first I was going to say low tier 3 at best with the caveat of restricting him to 1 of a particular feat per level, so no billion hp toughness boost.
Then I remembered about Complete Champion, Magic of Incarnum and all those feats.
7 sp, +3 to a skill, d10+4hp, a soulmeld, weapon focus, an extra use of every devotion feat, a martial stance at every level is probably tier 3 by itself
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2012-07-09, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
What would you think of this?
Lingering Toughness: If you take this feat at 1st level, you gain 3 hit points. Upon attaining 2nd and 3rd levels, you gain 2 additional hit points each. Thereafter, you gain 1 hit point per level. If you take this feat at a later level, gain hit points as if you had had it since level 1.
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2012-07-09, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
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2012-07-09, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
I'm not sure adding 2 more HP makes it any more worth a feat. I like the idea of gaining extra benefit every level throughout your career. Compare Lingering Toughness to Psionic Body or Incarnum-Fortified Body, which are much more powerful but restricted to characters that are heavy into psionics and incarnum respectively.
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2012-07-09, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
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2012-07-13, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
I was confused, I thought it was the thing SKR had made up that gave 5 HP.
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2013-05-18, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Denver
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
What do you do about feats that combine two feats in one? Obviously, it should cost less than the two feats individually because it is more specialized, (probably.) But how much less?
Would Hand Crossbow Focus cost, say, 10? What about a really bomb feat like Craven or Dead-Eye?Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2013-05-18, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
Weapon Focus is 7 already; Hand Crossbow Focus could be 9 or 10, yes. "Really bomb feats" in general should be 10. A few that are significantly abusive or otherwise excessively powerful (like Leadership) should be more, but that's fairly rare. DMM:Persist might qualify. Possibly Arcane Thesis as well. Dragonwrought too, depending on DM interpretation.
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2013-05-18, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Denver
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Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
Since Toughness costs 3 points, a 1 for 1 HP trade, why not just give players the option of spending leftover feat points on HP at a 1 for 1 trade? Whether that is 2 or 4 feat points leftover? Toughness could still exist as a 3 coster for pre-reqs, I suppose.
If you don't do '3 feat points a level' but follow the original mechanic, some people may feel forced to spend all or most their feat points since, say, they aren't going to play to level 9 so their excess points will be wasted. It gives something, anyways.Homebrew PrC: The Performance Artist
Avatar by Kymme
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2013-05-18, 05:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Fixing SKR's Feat Point System
I'm perfectly fine with that idea. I never really got around to drafting an "official" version of my variant. The only thing of note here is the table (arguably the hardest part of the whole thing), which is hopefully much-improved over SKR's, and is useable with both SKR's version and your own variations thereof.
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2013-05-18, 06:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Dromund Kaas
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