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    Default Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    ...............................
    ...............................
    The Cheater

    Hit Die
    d12
    Starting Gold
    2d20x10
    Skills at first level
    (6+int) x4
    Skills per level
    6+int
    Class Skills
    Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather information, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope.
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special | Insp.

    1st|+0|+0|+2|+0| Cheat 10%, Gambit, Fast Movement | 1

    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0| Evasion, Trap Sense +1 | 1

    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1| Optimize +1 | 2

    4th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2 | 2

    5th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Special Ability, Cheat 20% | 3

    6th|+4|+2|+5|+2| Optimize +2, Trap Sense +3 | 3

    7th|+5|+2|+5|+2| | 3

    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2| Trap Sense +4 | 4

    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3| Optimize +3 | 4

    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3| Cheat 30%, Trap Sense +5 | 5

    11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3| Special Ability | 5

    12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4| Optimize +4, Trap Sense +6 | 6

    13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4| Improved Evasion | 6

    14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4| Trap Sense +7 | 6

    15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5| Optimize +5, Cheat 40% | 7

    16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5| Trap Sense +8| 7

    17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5| Special Ability | 8

    18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6| Trap Sense +9, Optimize +6 | 8

    19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6| | 9

    20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6| Cheat 50%, Trap Sense +10 | 9

    [/table]

    Class Features...

    Weapons and Armor...
    The Cheater is only proficient with light armor and simple weapons.

    (Ex) Gambit...
    Starting at first level the Cheater gains her charisma modifier as a bonus to her saves and +1 every other level towards her AC so long as she is wearing only Light Armor or less.
    Once per day, she can make a particularly daring action and gain double her Gambit bonus for 1 round, +1 round every five levels. Examples would be leaping off a cliff to save someone who just fell over the edge, taking off all your clothes and defensive in mockery of your enemy, or challenging a powerful opponent to a solo duel.

    (Ex) Fast Movement...
    The Cheater must learn to be quick on her feet. She gains +10ft to her movement speed 5ft every 2 levels.
    This fast movement is only +5ft if the cheater leaves the class before fifth level.

    (Ex) Evasion...
    The Cheater is sharp, and has great reaction time. She gains the Evasion ability. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the cheater is wearing light armor or no armor. Even a cheater does not get to retain the benefit of evasion when Helpless.
    At level 13 this increases to Improved Evasion.
    This ability works like evasion, except that while the cheater still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage even on a failed save. A helpless cheater still does not gain the benefit of either evasion.

    (Ex) Trap Sense...
    The Cheater's expert reaction speed gives her a Trap Sense that lets her respond to traps.
    She gains the listed bonus on reflex saves against traps and as a dodge bonus against attacks from traps.

    (Su) Inspiration...
    You have a number of points per encounter you can use to add your Charisma modifier to a single action. Using an inspiration point is an immediate action. Options for inspiration are: Skill checks. Saves. Or an insight bonus to AC against a single attack. The bonus is the same each time, so using multiple Inspirations at once wont stack on top of something.

    (Su) Cheat...
    Once per encounter, you can activate a Cheat. Against one opponent or for simply 1 +Cha = rounds chosen on use, you subtract the amount listed on the table from damage you take and instead give it back to the attacker. For this to take effect, you need to overcome the target's will. The DC is 10 + half your level (Minimum 1) + Cha + 5.

    (Ex) Optimize...
    You gain a free floating number as listed on the table that you can assign to any Ability Score, one save, one skill, or your AC. Assigning your Optimization takes one full round action. This bonus is untyped.
    Assigning to Int does not give you more skill points, But when applied to a skill Optimize's effect is double. Instead of +6 to a skill it would be +12.

    (Su) Special Ability...
    At indicated levels the cheater gains a special ability.
    • Lets Play Nice...
      As a standard action you create a field 50ftx50ft centered on you. Anyone who makes an attack within the field gets the damage they dealt done back to them in full. In addition, they must make a will save DC 10+1/2 cheater levels+cha or be raised one step in disposition towards the cheater. If they get hit a second time, they lose all will to fight and lose consciousness due to happiness overload. Usable once per day for every 5 levels the cheater possesses; 1 at fifth, 2 at tenth, 3 at 15th, and 4 times per day at 20th. The field lasts until the end of the encounter or you are rendered helpless.

    • Chance Happenstance....
      As a standard action you create a field 50ftx50ft centered on one target within range. Any attack made within the field has a 50% chance to critical hit, or critical fail. On a 1-10 on there die roll, they suffer a critical fail or simply attack themselves instead. If they roll a 11-20, they deal a critical hit at x2 damage unless they rolled a natural 20 and their weapon has a higher critical multiplier. Usable once per day for every 5 levels the cheater possesses; 1 at fifth, 2 at tenth, 3 at 15th, and 4 times per day at 20th. The field lasts until the end of the encounter or the target is rendered helpless.

    • Toggle God Mode...
      For a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier, you double your Cheat ability's percentage but only in relation to how much damage you take, not how much is sent back to the target, and triple either its duration or number of targets, depending on which version you choose. So if using a targeted version instead of a duration mode, you instead target three enemies. TGM cannot increase the percentage to more then 90% against creatures with more HD then you have class levels. Every 5HD it has over your level, the maximum percentage goes down by 10% to a minimum of +5% over its normal percentage.

    • Advance Attribute...
      For a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier you can double one ability score. Usable once per day +1 every ten levels. Cannot be selected if you are less then level ten. For one use at level eleven, and two uses per day at level twenty. Using this is a movement equivalent action. Optimize does not count towards the score when doubling, but provides its normal bonus.

    • Lag Spike...
      You can make a ranged touch attack. If you succeed, you cause the character to move slowly as if stuttering in time. On a failed fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 level +Charisma) Its speed is reduced by 15ft and it has a 25% chance to do nothing for one round. Lasts for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier. Multiple hits stack. Minimum speed is 5ft no matter how many times you hit. Maximum percentage is 75%. You can use this ability 1+Cha times per day.

    • Info Leak...
      At the start of any encounter, or once an hour, you can cause information to leak off of a target, revealing its secrets.
      Make a sense motive check to interpret the information. It gets to make a bluff check to avoid revealing its secrets but that does not mean it is consciously aware of the leak. You get a +5 to this check. If you succeed, you learn one thing about the target. The target does not have to be living.

    • Rabbit's Foot Charm...
      With a flash of style, the cheater creates a 25ftx25ft area of good luck. Within the area, everyone gains +2 luck bonus to AC, reflex saves, and skill checks. Everyone within the area can score a critical hit on a 15-20 unless they could score on less.
      Lasts for five rounds, used as a standard action.
    • Black Cat's Jinx...
      With a flash of style, the cheater creates a 25ftx25ft area of bad luck. Within the area, everyone gains -2 luck penalty to AC, reflex saves, and skill checks. Everyone within the area scores a critical fail on a 1-5 unless they were unlucky enough to score on more.
      Lasts for five rounds, used as a standard action.

    • Flip the Tables...
      Once per day for every five levels the Cheater possesses for a total of five at level twenty, she can flip the results of any roll. A 1 becomes a 20, a 5 becomes a 15, a 3,1,6 on a 3d6 roll becomes a 3,6,1, and so on. She can use this as an immediate action after the dice are rolled but before the outcome is established (ie; the damage already dealt in case of damage dice, or generally just before your turn is over or an enemy who attacked you's turn has continued).

    • Wait! I think I've found something...
      Once per day per five levels, for five times at level twenty, the cheater can choose to take ten on a skill check if she would normally be able to. After the dice is rolled.
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2012-06-03 at 05:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    I think Optimize should grant double the bonus, since it's only to a single skill check. +6 to a skill at level 18 isn't that shiny, but +12 to a skill is pretty nice.

    The 4th sentence of Evasion references the rogue, not the cheater.

    Fast Movement- Would be clearer and easier to just say "10 ft, +5' per 2 levels".

    I would like to see some kind of Aura of Luck and Aura of Unluck abilities. Luck-based classes often involve rerolling dice, but with the cheater, you could instead potentially have some "fake" rerolls. Treat a natural 1 as a natural 20 a number of times per day, treat the minimum damage dice rolled as maximum instead (rolled snake eyes on a 2d6, change it to 12), etc. Maybe the ability to take 10 on skill checks, but only after you've already made the skill check and you rolled less than 10. Etc. Cheating! If you're a cheater, you should be able to cheat.

    Advance Attribute is very nice. Toggle God Mode is also pretty good.

    I feel like this should be a Wis-based class, though. Your force of personality and your appearance has nothing to do with being wise to a game and perceiving loopholes. A cheater is Wise, not Charismatic.
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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    I think Optimize should grant double the bonus, since it's only to a single skill check. +6 to a skill at level 18 isn't that shiny, but +12 to a skill is pretty nice.
    Ability score, saves, skills, or AC.
    +12 to an ability score would be a touch much perhaps?
    The 4th sentence of Evasion references the rogue, not the cheater.
    Mybad...
    Fast Movement- Would be clearer and easier to just say "10 ft, +5' per 2 levels".
    It would... but then it'd sound like I should put +5ft speed every two levels. And there's already enough clutter in the table from progressing abilities x_x.
    I would like to see some kind of Aura of Luck and Aura of Unluck abilities. Luck-based classes often involve rerolling dice, but with the cheater, you could instead potentially have some "fake" rerolls. Treat a natural 1 as a natural 20 a number of times per day, treat the minimum damage dice rolled as maximum instead (rolled snake eyes on a 2d6, change it to 12), etc. Maybe the ability to take 10 on skill checks, but only after you've already made the skill check and you rolled less than 10. Etc. Cheating! If you're a cheater, you should be able to cheat.
    I thought of some abilities like these. I posted it a touch early however since it was ready and I was starting to somewhat lose focus.
    Advance Attribute is very nice. Toggle God Mode is also pretty good.

    I feel like this should be a Wis-based class, though. Your force of personality and your appearance has nothing to do with being wise to a game and perceiving loopholes. A cheater is Wise, not Charismatic.
    Wisdom has nothing to do with the way the abilities work either, however. Its closer to... breaking the fourth wall, then finding loopholes. The cheating is supposed to be on the character level, not out of character.
    And I'm sure we all know Deadpool is more Charismatic then Wise.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Ability score, saves, skills, or AC.
    +12 to an ability score would be a touch much perhaps?
    Sorry. I meant just for skills.
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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Sorry. I meant just for skills.
    Ah.
    It is done.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    You should change the fast movement. I didnt even realise what it was saying until the reply bellow.

    I thought it meant that you gain an additional 1/2 a foot every level but don't get to use it till it equals 10 feet.
    'Stralia: Now a campaign setting (D&D 3.5 E6)

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangles View Post
    You should change the fast movement. I didnt even realise what it was saying until the reply bellow.

    I thought it meant that you gain an additional 1/2 a foot every level but don't get to use it till it equals 10 feet.
    *eye roll* Alright. But I am so not adding the additional 5ft increments to the table x_x

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Just skimmed it, but one thing caught my eye.

    The Cheater cannot leave the class until her fifth level.
    Dislike.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Just skimmed it, but one thing caught my eye.


    Dislike.
    Shame...

    Such is a standard feature on all my recent classes.
    People nearly always complained of 1 level dip and It use to be a common question;
    "Give me one reason not to take a 1 level dip..."

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    ...Is this based on Kleya from Not A Villain?
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    You didn't poke fate with a stick. You set fate on fire, then whacked it with a 2x4 several times.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackwind1kaze View Post
    good thing they did body attribute instead of Physical attribute, otherwise the stats would look like:

    P. hysical
    M. ind
    S. pirit

    XD

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    ...Is this based on Kleya from Not A Villain?
    It is, it is! I just finished catching up to it earlier today. Then Seraphi said no one was Peaching my classes because they're casters, and casters are boring and I should try melee. So I looked back on Kleya and it made me grin.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    I have no comments on balance, because I think with all the numbers flying all over the place it needs a play test badly to see how it actually works.
    I don't have any problems with the dip restriction, but whether or not you have it you are going to get complaints (either it's too dip friendly or why cant I dip). I like making all of the first level abilities scale if I can, making dips less desirable, but that doesn't always work. Still I find it slightly ironic that the cheater can't dip.
    Can you only use one inspiration point at at time? As worded that is how it seems, but I'm doubting so because of how other things are worded.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    Shame...

    Such is a standard feature on all my recent classes.
    People nearly always complained of 1 level dip and It use to be a common question;
    "Give me one reason not to take a 1 level dip..."
    Heh, I kind of like it. It's really cheeky, like the Risen Martyr prestige class in the Book of Exalted Deeds. That class not only bars you from leaving it until you're done but removes you from existence once you reach the last level. But your class is a little better than that since the 5th Cheater level doesn't literally carry off your character to the Seven Heavens.

    What I think is meant by the "give me one reason..." question is that some classes are heavily front-loaded (they get a bunch of excellent abilities at 1st level, and not much else in levels 2 - 10). Others are just plain awful, and the only reason optimizers take them is to grab one class ability that they need to power another, otherwise unrelated strategy.
    Last edited by Steward; 2012-06-02 at 10:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    Heh, I kind of like it. It's really cheeky, like the Risen Martyr prestige class in the Book of Exalted Deeds. That class not only bars you from leaving it until you're done but removes you from existence once you reach the last level. But your class is a little better than that since the 5th Cheater level doesn't literally carry off your character to the Seven Heavens.

    What I think is meant by the "give me one reason..." question is that some classes are heavily front-loaded (they get a bunch of excellent abilities at 1st level, and not much else in levels 2 - 10). Others are just plain awful, and the only reason optimizers take them is to grab one class ability that they need to power another, otherwise unrelated strategy.
    I was reading Risen Martyr just yesterday. I saw that and I was like "woa, dealbreaker" Who wants to die upon attaining there final level x_x

    I'm glad someone expressed that they liked my inescapable class feature. I've put it on... four classes so far I think.


    Lol. Cheater shouldn't want to dip.
    I suppose they can right now. I should clarify that its bonus is the same and it doesn't stack with itself...
    Last edited by Cipherthe3vil; 2012-06-02 at 10:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    The only problem I can see in this class beside numbers all over the place is that this guy is getting d12. I honestly feel that only combat heavy classes (fighter, paladin, blackguard, and barbarian) this guy has the ability to turn damage back at his attacker on top of a d12

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    The only problem I can see in this class beside numbers all over the place is that this guy is getting d12. I honestly feel that only combat heavy classes (fighter, paladin, blackguard, and barbarian) this guy has the ability to turn damage back at his attacker on top of a d12
    This class is supposed to be a tank alternative to heavy armor juggernauts. Notice they don't exactly have much for offensive capability outside of Cheat.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    The point behind "give me a good reason not to take a one-level dip" is to say that your first level is too strong, not that you should disallow players from taking advantage of their resources.

    A one-level dip is good if the level is good, a one-level dip is broken is the level is broken. If you are hotifixing the dip by forcing people to stay in a class, then you are leaving the level broken while reducing flexbility. And that is badwrongfun.

    For example, a level 1 cheater has a full hit die, a huge number of skills, two stats (one being her primary stat) on all saves, +Cha to any of AC, saves, or skills once per combat, and 10% (that's full scaling) DR for basically an entire fight. And this is before the scaling on BAB or her poor saves kicks in to provide balance. A level 1 gambit probably tanks better than any other class in the entire game, and that is why it's so dippable.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cipherthe3vil View Post
    I was reading Risen Martyr just yesterday. I saw that and I was like "woa, dealbreaker" Who wants to die upon attaining there final level x_x

    I'm glad someone expressed that they liked my inescapable class feature. I've put it on... four classes so far I think.
    Well, it's definitely cute, but I really don't think it addresses the core problem that people would have with that. It works, but it's not the same as designing a class in such a way that level 10 or level 20 is just as attractive and exciting as level 1. It's still a lot better than trapping someone in the class for 10 levels only to kill them at the end, but really, everything is.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    eh, Crusader tanks better at level one.

    But if you took levels of something else and then dipped, Cheater would be more friendly than Crusader... to Cha-based folk.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    i can't see any reason for the d12, Trap sense and the 8 skillpoints.

    I suggest moving the "+cha to saves" thing to third level at least, the class already gets a LOT of stuff in the first 2 levels.

    Also, the "Lag Spike ability has no save, it's kinda broken. Use it twice and you've rendered ANYONE useless.

    Also, Risen martyr looks very cool to me! it's a great charachter idea!
    If you play this, your DM can just have the campaign end as soon as you reach the 10th level, possibly in a cool way.
    For example, he can make it so that the party's final mission is to defeat the BBEG. After doing that, your charachter has finally served his purpose and vanishes.
    Stay out of the shadows, they bite.


    Check out Camp Archimedes, a (slightly homebrew) mercenary camp full of interesting units. A great addition to any campaign (in my very biased opinion)

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    i can't see any reason for the d12, Trap sense and the 8 skillpoints.

    I suggest moving the "+cha to saves" thing to third level at least, the class already gets a LOT of stuff in the first 2 levels.

    Also, the "Lag Spike ability has no save, it's kinda broken. Use it twice and you've rendered ANYONE useless.

    Also, Risen martyr looks very cool to me! it's a great charachter idea!
    If you play this, your DM can just have the campaign end as soon as you reach the 10th level, possibly in a cool way.
    For example, he can make it so that the party's final mission is to defeat the BBEG. After doing that, your charachter has finally served his purpose and vanishes.
    Its a HP-Tank... a Lucky-Skilled HP-Tank o-0?

    Oh my. I thought I included a Fortitude save. Must have slipped my mind.

    I didn't have a problem with it really. But the dead at 10th level was kidna " " I mean, there doesn't seem to be much use for it... Instead of taking that class you'd just get True Resurrection, Miracle, or Wish to come back. If the worlds needs you enough that you become a Risen Martyr, someone out there surly wouldn't mind resurrecting you.

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    What is this class intended to do? It looks like a rogue, but doesn't sneak attack like one. It has abilities, but they are all defensive until Special Abilities kick in at level 5. Special Abilities are a few times a day and their power level is such that some of them could be at will and some could be per encounter.

    Most of the early features are reasonable support features. Whatevs.

    Inspiration is... uninspiring. +Cha to skills, saves, or AC is kind of ok but not great.

    How long do Rabbit's Foot Charm and Black Cat's Jinx last?

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    Default Re: Lets play Nice. 3.5 Base Class, peaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    What is this class intended to do? It looks like a rogue, but doesn't sneak attack like one. It has abilities, but they are all defensive until Special Abilities kick in at level 5. Special Abilities are a few times a day and their power level is such that some of them could be at will and some could be per encounter.

    Most of the early features are reasonable support features. Whatevs.

    Inspiration is... uninspiring. +Cha to skills, saves, or AC is kind of ok but not great.

    How long do Rabbit's Foot Charm and Black Cat's Jinx last?

    Hmm... I'd say its a middle ground between Rogue and Barbarian with sprinkles of tricky sorcerer bits.

    5 rounds.

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