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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Its kind of disappointing. It kind of ruins the:

    Instinct VS Thought
    Man VS Nature
    Known VS Unknown.

    thing that I thought was going thematically.

    So the only thing there is is Court VS Forest. Makes it a whole lot weaker.
    What are you talking about? The themes that have been going on are:

    Knowledge through meditation and other ways to get knowledge of the self versus knowledge of the world and magic and nothing of yourself.

    Controlled Versus Natural development (which is why the shadowmen are so unhappy - not only does their creator reject them, they aren't allowed into the section they belong - also a reason for Ysengrin's unhappiness.)

    Known versus unknown - but that's both Court and Forest.



    As far as I can tell, it's about finding a balance between those elements that will let you be happy, at its most simple - but the point is that it's not simple. To describe the themes fully and give them their due would need an essay.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Knowledge through meditation and other ways to get knowledge of the self versus knowledge of the world and magic and nothing of yourself.
    Eh. I haven't been feeling it. Its a theme, but not a VS. Its finding both out at the same time.

    Controlled Versus Natural development (which is why the shadowmen are so unhappy - not only does their creator reject them, they aren't allowed into the section they belong - also a reason for Ysengrin's unhappiness.)
    What does that even mean? I haven't seen much natural development coming from the nature side anyway. I don't consider "Twisting nature with magic" different then "Twisting nature with science"

    Known versus unknown - but that's both Court and Forest.
    Then its not a theme. Its not VS. Its just "We have mysteries".
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-09-08 at 03:34 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Eh. I haven't been feeling it. Its a theme, but not a VS. Its finding both out at the same time.
    Actually it's not - Kat is finding out through experimentation while Annie is going through a naturalistic, introspective development. Hence why Annie just does things (like building robot) while Kat develops ideas and schematics. Only through outside forces are they brought together - forces like Zimmy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    What does that even mean? I haven't seen much natural development coming from the nature side anyway. I don't consider "Twisting nature with magic" different then "Twisting nature with science"
    But that was my point - things which are twisted, in either setting really, end up unhappy and out of place. Ysengrin and the shadowmen, or ghostie in the valley and some others.

    The robots, while 'unnatural' by definition are actually really happy in the court. So is the shadow! They are out of place in nature. Reynardine is happy in neither setting because of what he's tried to do. Similarly, the birds could never be happy there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Then its not a theme. Its not VS. Its just "We have mysteries".
    It's a theme, it's not just confined to either side or made particularly overt. There's a difference between "we have mysteries" and "look at the effect having mysteries has on us".


    The first post wasn't very well articulated. Sorry.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Actually it's not - Kat is finding out through experimentation while Annie is going through a naturalistic, introspective development. Hence why Annie just does things (like building robot) while Kat develops ideas and schematics. Only through outside forces are they brought together - forces like Zimmy.
    I don't get what your talking about.

    But that was my point - things which are twisted, in either setting really, end up unhappy and out of place. Ysengrin and the shadowmen, or ghostie in the valley and some others.
    Well not really. People in the court seem to be fine. Even though they are all twisting nature. And the elf people are twisting nature to create housing/ clothing for themselfes (I assume they have housing/ clothing because how else would Annie live?). The nature as a whole is already pretty twisted and unnatural.

    Maybe a better word for this is: Finding the right place for you. THAT I will agree with you being a theme.



    It's a theme, it's not just confined to either side or made particularly overt.
    I don't consider that a theme. Yes technically it suits the definition, but I usually don't count themes which are just whats happening.

    Technicaly "Shooting things" is a theme in movies. But thats not the type of theme Im talking about.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Personally, I think 'natural' is a rather overrated concept.
    The Forest is hardly natural anyway. Take Ysingrin's armour/body.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Personally, I think 'natural' is a rather overrated concept.
    The Forest is hardly natural anyway. Take Ysingrin's armour/body.
    What's unnatural about a wolf-tree?
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    What's unnatural about a wolf-tree?
    It's got the words "Wolf" and "Tree" in it! Both those things are natural!

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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    It's got the words "Wolf" and "Tree" in it! Both those things are natural!
    By that logic, robots are natural, as both people named Rob and ocelots are natural.
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    By that logic, robots are natural, as both people named Rob and ocelots are natural.
    Don't be silly.


    People named Robert don't really exist.

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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Personally, I think 'natural' is a rather overrated concept.
    I don't think its overrated. Just overdone and almost always poorly executed.

    The Forest is hardly natural anyway. Take Ysingrin's armour/body.
    Thats my point.

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    So the only thing there is is Court VS Forest. Makes it a whole lot weaker.
    It's supposed to be shades of grey... I think.

    So far it's been kind of dark grey and unknown but presumably also dark grey.

    I'd swear it's a knife's edge from just being black and black morality with Annie and Kat in the middle.
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Im talking thematically. Im not talking morality. Im talking themes.

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Im talking thematically. Im not talking morality. Im talking themes.
    The themes are pretty grey as well.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Thats not how thematics work.

    You dont say "Transformers 2 had themes of postmodern philosophy. It was just pretty grey".

    Either you have an ongoing theme thats strong, or you dont.

    Also on new comic:

    PLEASE make it that his mind is gone.

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I'm pretty sure he was just saying that the themes can't be summarised as simply as "Nature versus Man", etc. They are more complex than such simplifications would allow for - if that's what you're looking for, go read a different comic, because it's not this one.

  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Annie took that much better than I thought she would. Eglamore seems pretty rattled; I think he cares for her more than he realizes. And hopefully Jones can throw some light on what's going on here and just how bad Ysengrin is, and why...

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Also on new comic:

    PLEASE make it that his mind is gone.
    Eh, Ysengrin was clearly able to hold a conversation and think about stuff. He's emotionally unstable, has psychotic episodes, and isn't very likable, but he still has a mind - it's not gone so much as damaged.
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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    I'm pretty sure he was just saying that the themes can't be summarised as simply as "Nature versus Man", etc. They are more complex than such simplifications would allow for - if that's what you're looking for, go read a different comic, because it's not this one.
    Well outside of sounding a bit patronizing (Go read your simple comics, you simpleton: was a vibe I got) just because the themes are more complicated doesn't make them better.
    To many themes or layers can weaken a theme, make its impact less powerful, or make it less interesting.

    Same reason that sometimes a simple villain is better then a totally morally gray story (I don't think this comic needs one).

    Currently I find the comic lacking a solid theme to go on that serves as a good backbone. Everything else isn't as much a theme as much as events that happen more then once.

    And why must I always throw praise at the comic? Why do i have to LEAVE the thread if Im giving decent criticism? Im not just writing "This sux0rsz LOL".

  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    And why must I always throw praise at the comic? Why do i have to LEAVE the thread if Im giving decent criticism? Im not just writing "This sux0rsz LOL".
    I think it's mostly because you're not criticizing the comic for what it is but what it isn't. As in you're upset that the themes that you want to see aren't there and that the comic isn't focusing on what you want it to be.

    You want the split between the court and forest to be thematic and about nature and humanity (and show nature as being dangerous and inferior) but instead it's mostly political with 'natural things' like the dryad on the courts side and 'unnatural things' like the elfen village on the forests side. (The only real thematic split is between those who want to explain how things work and those who just accept that they do.)

    It does feel like you have a comic that you want to be reading and gunnerkrigg isn't it.

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cestrian View Post
    I think it's mostly because you're not criticizing the comic for what it is but what it isn't. As in you're upset that the themes that you want to see aren't there and that the comic isn't focusing on what you want it to be.
    No I mean't that I don't see any themes (Themes are not the same thing as stuff that tends to happen allot) period. Where I think the comic wanted me to see them.

    And whatever. Lets drop this theme discussion.

  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I took the theme to be order vs.liberty. Containing and controlling the supernatural vs. allowing it to be unbound and wild.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Again thats not as much a theme as a thing that happens.

    One liners in action movies are a theme. But are not really thematic.

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Again thats not as much a theme as a thing that happens.

    One liners in action movies are a theme. But are not really thematic.
    A theme is a unifying idea or concept or subject tying a work together. One-liners in an action movie don't qualify, while "order vs. liberty" does. Though it would be interesting to see a work build around one-liners. I suspect it would be very genre savvy.
    Themes are usually intangible and implicit, exploring abstract ideas and questions. They're transitive, meaning a theme could be explored in a lot of different works ("Court vs. Forest" is context-dependent and doesn't qualify as a theme).

    I definitely agree that the best themes aren't the complicated ones (you should be able to summarize a theme in one sentence or, better, a few words), but the best works have a simple theme with a complicated, nuanced exploration of said theme.
    I personally think you can have several themes in a work, but it takes a talented writer to pull it off.

    "Humanity's need for explanation" or "political intrigue" (that you mentioned earlier) could be themes of GC as well. I don't personally think they're the most important ones, but you could make your case for them. "Growing up" could be another.
    It is a bit hard to pinpoint the specific theme of GC, on that I agree. But I also think it's a strength of the comic - if Siddell keeps living up to my expectations. I love seeing different perspectives and themes and occurences intersect. But that's probably just a question of taste
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  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass Mouse View Post
    A theme is a unifying idea or concept or subject tying a work together. One-liners in an action movie don't qualify, while "order vs. liberty" does. Though it would be interesting to see a work build around one-liners. I suspect it would be very genre savvy.
    No I din't mean that wasn't a theme. I meant that we didn't see any of that in the comic. Its just a thing that happens in the comic, that carries no underlining ideas.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    If I were to give you a theme about this comic I'd straight up tell you its about Annie's dual natures. How she is part of both the Forest and the Court, and how she fits in with neither. I'd tell you about her cold dememor (the court) mixed with her fiery passion (the Forest). I'd tell you she is both capricious (The Forest) and calculating (nature), and I'd tell you that this nature is represented throughout the comic in areas other than Annie's character. I'm of the conclusion that the Forest's and Court's seperation is unnatural and that without each other they are incomplete. Its why Annie needs both Renard and Kat. Its why Shadow and Robot, both whom where rejected by their homes are completed together. Its why boys turn into birds, and pixies turn into girls. The division between the court and the forest has left the world unbalanced, and everything is trying to fill the void left between them.

  26. - Top - End - #386
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Thats just human emotion. Ive met 50 people just today that are both Calculating, yet can be capricious.

    This does have potential to be expanded apon as she is fire elemental, but I don't believe its been explored enough to my liking.

    You pointing out the possibility of the court and nature needing each other is interesting. Very interesting indeed. It actually feels like an actual theme....

    Huh. I think your right.

    Bravo mate. Bravo. I think you might have found the main theme. That both sides need each other.

    Major clapping from me.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Not just Annie's Duel Natures, everywhere we have Duality. Remember Kat and Annie's friendship. Kat is gifted with Science and reason, especially with Machines. She is best friends with Annie, the girl obsessed with mythology who practices Magic.

    You have Parley and Smitty. Parley the hotheaded Rebel, Smitty with the power to make chance itself conform to reason, and together they achieve great things.

    Kat and the Pigeon. Kat, the Angel of Robotics, was knocked out of her stupor by something as humble as a pigeon.

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  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Not just Annie's Duel Natures, everywhere we have Duality. Remember Kat and Annie's friendship. Kat is gifted with Science and reason, especially with Machines. She is best friends with Annie, the girl obsessed with mythology who practices Magic.

    You have Parley and Smitty. Parley the hotheaded Rebel, Smitty with the power to make chance itself conform to reason, and together they achieve great things.

    Kat and the Pigeon. Kat, the Angel of Robotics, was knocked out of her stupor by something as humble as a pigeon.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Poor, poor, Ysengrin.

    Not all of Coyote's schemes are funny.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    And hooray for that!

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