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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Ooh, my brain, the clash of perspectives.
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  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

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    Calling that Coyote's Tooth, which can split the earth itself or however he said it, is the end of/can hurt Jones.

  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    So I was looking back at Jones's earliest appearance, and it seems what may be the longest running mystery concerning her (the significance of the headmaster's response) has been answered mostly if not entirely.

    Although the wording of her statement interests me in the context of her personal rules (only revealing things discovered by current findings). If she had seen something quite like Ysengrin's new body before, what would she have said then?
    Last edited by Pheehelm; 2012-11-21 at 08:39 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Jones must drive the scientists crazy. I imagine they've conducted every test they can think of on her - x-rays, ultra-sounds, probes, chemical analysis, spectrographs, psychological examination - and gotten nothing. I hope Annie doesn't tell Kat about this, Kat might be intrigued enough to join the fun and stop being a robot angel.

    I wonder what Zimmy sees when she looks at Jones?

    And Annie still hasn't asked about the stars yet...

  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Her exact words to Coyote were "You know I can take her if I wish." Which would seem to indicate, at least, a belief on her part that Coyote would be incapable of stopping her once she decided on a course of action.
    You know, I read further along in that arc after Jones said that. Coyote stops time to put a band around Annie's wrist.

    Why couldn't he just stop time and take Annie miles away from Jones, then just stop time and continue to walk away from Jones every time she appeared?

    If he's capable of doing this, then Jones' statement "You know I can take her if I wish" is inaccurate, as his ability to stop time would make it literally impossible for Jones to ever recover Annie.

    Possibly Jones simply does not know the full extent of Coyote's abilities, potentially because she has no experience vis-a-vis the ether, or because she and Coyote have never come into true mortal conflict.

  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    You know, I read further along in that arc after Jones said that. Coyote stops time to put a band around Annie's wrist.

    Why couldn't he just stop time and take Annie miles away from Jones, then just stop time and continue to walk away from Jones every time she appeared?

    If he's capable of doing this, then Jones' statement "You know I can take her if I wish" is inaccurate, as his ability to stop time would make it literally impossible for Jones to ever recover Annie.

    Possibly Jones simply does not know the full extent of Coyote's abilities, potentially because she has no experience vis-a-vis the ether, or because she and Coyote have never come into true mortal conflict.
    He can induce magical changes in the world and inform people about them instantly, but that does not mean he could have moved Annie instantly.
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    He can induce magical changes in the world and inform people about them instantly, but that does not mean he could have moved Annie instantly.
    He can stop time and allow (at least) one other person to move while it is stopped. That much is known because we saw Annie move and speak while it was stopped.


    Of course, the thing is: Just because Coyote can stop Jones from doing things by stopping time and moving stuff relevant to those things doesn't mean that Jones knows it.
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  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I wonder if her body can block neutrinos . . .
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    I wonder if her body can block neutrinos . . .
    That would be impressive. The bulk of the earth doesn't even really stop neutrinos.

    Then again, neutrinos only interact with other leptons, so if she were made of leptonic matter, she could block neutrinos.
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    Rockphed said it well.
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  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    That would be impressive. The bulk of the earth doesn't even really stop neutrinos.

    Then again, neutrinos only interact with other leptons, so if she were made of leptonic matter, she could block neutrinos.
    Which is exactly why I asked.
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  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I don't know where this is heading. Is Jones about to say reality is subjective?

    And I note she already knew Coyote's great secret. From the sound of things, she and Coyote have discussed this whole subject before.

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    I don't know where this is heading. Is Jones about to say reality is subjective?
    No. I think she's saying that Reality Is. Coyote and the other 'powerful spirits' had nothing to do with the placement of stars...

    But since they were created by human thought, and human thought had those spirits place the stars, the spirits believe they placed the stars. And they have the power to do ... whatever, because human belief gave them that power.

    And I note she already knew Coyote's great secret. From the sound of things, she and Coyote have discussed this whole subject before.
    Yes. Probably when she and Coyote met. She was always looking for answers to her question, after all.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Two things jumped out at me:

    1) "Thought experiment". Why is it a thought experiment on Coyote's part?

    2) The way the stars line up the figures in the last panel suggests constellations. While the shape of constellations has nothing to do with the stars being put in the sky, the selection of group of stars and deciding what this particular group represents is cultural. I know, this is kinda stretching it, but if we extend organization of stars into patterns to those supernatural beings which are products of human imagination, Coyote would fit right in. If humans imagined that starts were placed in that particular pattern for by Coyote-like beings, then from perspective of those beings that are products of human though, that is exactly what they really did.
    Last edited by fwiffo; 2012-11-26 at 09:20 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
    1) "Thought experiment". Why is it a thought experiment on Coyote's part?
    Because there's no way for current human technology to disprove his claim. Or the claims of the other powerful beings that make the same claim to placing the stars.

    So, what happened?

    Were the stars always there, and humans, by seeing shapes in those stars and assigning a reason for those shapes, end up creating beings that placed those stars? Which comes back to a question from earlier...

    In humans seeing the stars and attributing it to the beings, did the beings they created retroactively place the stars so humans could attribute the placement to them?
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Were the stars always there, and humans, by seeing shapes in those stars and assigning a reason for those shapes, end up creating beings that placed those stars? Which comes back to a question from earlier...

    In humans seeing the stars and attributing it to the beings, did the beings they created retroactively place the stars so humans could attribute the placement to them?
    Well, the other way to parse what Jones said is that Coyote did not do it, but he believes that he did, because humans believe so. Certainly, Jones experience that they were there long before any creatures were on earth would support that.

    The phrase "Coyote will say he did it himself, and it is not a lie" is likewise interesting. A lie is a deliberate misstatement of facts. If I honestly believe something which is not true, I can state it, and I won't be lying - but that still will not make it true. So, Coyote might not be lying, but that does not make what he says to be the "objective" truth.
    Last edited by fwiffo; 2012-11-26 at 10:06 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #976
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
    Well, the other way to parse what Jones said is that Coyote did not do it, but he believes that he did, because humans believe so.
    Pretty much that... I think that's what I was trying to say... better words there.

    The phrase "Coyote will say he did it himself, and it is not a lie" is likewise interesting. A lie is a deliberate misstatement of facts. If I honestly believe something which is not true, I can state it, and I won't be lying - but that still will not make it true. So, Coyote might not be lying, but that does not make what he says to be the "objective" truth.
    Exactly, he's not lying. The Truth, as far as Coyote is concerned, is that he did put the stars in the sky. That's how humans created him.
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  17. - Top - End - #977
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I think to borrow from Hogfather a bit...

    There were always flaming balls of plasma up there. Cyote put the STARS up.
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  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Why do we think Jones' memories are more likely to be accurate than Coyote's memories?

    If the ether formed a Coyote with memories of a past that never happened why couldn't it form a Jones the same way?

  19. - Top - End - #979
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cestrian View Post
    Why do we think Jones' memories are more likely to be accurate than Coyote's memories?
    We're not. But we are using her as a foil to Coyote's claims and a little more likely.

    She is an aggregator of knowledge, apparently; she does pass on that other beings make the same claim as Coyote and that they have a fair bit of power themselves.

    If the ether formed a Coyote with memories of a past that never happened why couldn't it form a Jones the same way?
    Well, naturally.

    Which gets into another another thought exercise. If that's true, then what does Jones represent?
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  20. - Top - End - #980
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Which gets into another another thought exercise. If that's true, then what does Jones represent?
    Empiricism, Objectivity. As somebody might have believed that a divine Coyote put the stars in the sky, somebody else believes in an objective, scientific truth

    What is more, they believe that they can FIND that truth. They may be in a lab, looking at rock samples under an electron microscope, but in their hearts they are searching for something, an answer. They are asking a question, they may be directing this question towards rock samples, but they are still focused on that objective, unbiased truth.

    Jones is that truth. She was never worshiped, there are no stories about her, but scientists and historians spend their lives looking for her. Perhaps, when they sleep, they dream of somebody who could just answer their questions. When a paleontologist holds up a bone and asks "What did this creature look like?" He's asking Jones.
    She just chooses not to answer.
    If a man dying in the desert can create a Coyote, who is to say that a man dying on his deathbed, having spent his life wondering how a mountain came to be, cannot create a woman who saw that mountain rise.

    She was created retroactively. But she wasn't imagined as knowing anything specific. She was imagined as knowing The Truth. But the minds that created her only respect knowledge that stemmed from observation. So she must have observed The Truth happening.
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  21. - Top - End - #981
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Because I hope that shes not another Data I hope she only has curiosity as a feeling
    Why call her Data? Didn't Wizard of Oz with their Tin Man come before Star Trek? There may have been even older uses of this trope, though I don't know of them.

    Personally I hope that Jones isn't emotionless, because I can't sympathize with, or feel anything for, an emotionless character. If Jones doesn't actually care about her decades of loneliness then why should I? If Jones doesn't can't actually feel things like friendship towards another person then why should we care that she outlives all the people she may have felt things towards?


    To summarize: If Jones can't feel emotions then why should I feel emotions for her?

  22. - Top - End - #982
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    You don't have to. Not every character has to be a CHARACTER. If Jones existed more like a plot element thats fine.

    You might instead care about whatshisbuts and how she feels nothing for him.

    I completely agree that a story with only alien characters is boring and dull. But this story already has some very human and relatable characters so having Jones be emotional and shizz yo isn't vital.

  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cestrian View Post
    If the ether formed a Coyote with memories of a past that never happened
    One way to read it is that, Coyote is, in fact, the creator that placed the stars in the sky. All of the gods are as old as they say they are and have done exactly what they say they have. That they have contradicting facts, and that they have a definite genesis point that dates to the age of mankind rather than before the birth of time doesn't make what they say any less true.

    Some trippy thing like that.

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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Empiricism, Objectivity. As somebody might have believed that a divine Coyote put the stars in the sky, somebody else believes in an objective, scientific truth

    What is more, they believe that they can FIND that truth. They may be in a lab, looking at rock samples under an electron microscope, but in their hearts they are searching for something, an answer. They are asking a question, they may be directing this question towards rock samples, but they are still focused on that objective, unbiased truth.

    Jones is that truth. She was never worshiped, there are no stories about her, but scientists and historians spend their lives looking for her. Perhaps, when they sleep, they dream of somebody who could just answer their questions. When a paleontologist holds up a bone and asks "What did this creature look like?" He's asking Jones.
    She just chooses not to answer.
    If a man dying in the desert can create a Coyote, who is to say that a man dying on his deathbed, having spent his life wondering how a mountain came to be, cannot create a woman who saw that mountain rise.

    She was created retroactively. But she wasn't imagined as knowing anything specific. She was imagined as knowing The Truth. But the minds that created her only respect knowledge that stemmed from observation. So she must have observed The Truth happening.
    This is actually an interesting theory. She has no power, she just observes. Because she must observe, she is invincible and immortal and coyote cannot stop her. Note that nothing of import actually happened when the time was stopped. Coyote was just giving some information to Annie. If he had tried to carry her off, an event, rather than an exchange of information, would have occurred, which would have allowed the watcher of all to watch and follow the fleeing coyote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  25. - Top - End - #985
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    I'd say the closest one could call her truly emotionless while still being the same character is if she is a philosophical zombie. But even then, she would still have emotions, she just wouldn't feel them.
    Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2012-11-26 at 07:51 PM.
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  26. - Top - End - #986
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by fwiffo View Post
    Well, the other way to parse what Jones said is that Coyote did not do it, but he believes that he did, because humans believe so. Certainly, Jones experience that they were there long before any creatures were on earth would support that.

    The phrase "Coyote will say he did it himself, and it is not a lie" is likewise interesting. A lie is a deliberate misstatement of facts. If I honestly believe something which is not true, I can state it, and I won't be lying - but that still will not make it true. So, Coyote might not be lying, but that does not make what he says to be the "objective" truth.
    I like this theory. What Coyote says seems to bear it out. It should be possible for human belief to create an etheric being that they believe put the stars in the sky, and for that presence to then believe that it did do it, because the people's belief that it did it causes the being to believe that it did.
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  27. - Top - End - #987
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayd View Post
    I think to borrow from Hogfather a bit...

    There were always flaming balls of plasma up there. Cyote put the STARS up.
    I like this answer too. Gets the philosophy and the fact, etc.
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I like this answer too. Gets the philosophy and the fact, etc.
    Heh, reminds me of what another product of humanity said.
    Tʜᴇ Sᴜɴ Wᴏᴜʟᴅ Nᴏᴛ Hᴀᴠᴇ Rɪsᴇɴ. . . A Mᴇʀᴇ Bᴀʟʟ Oғ Fʟᴀᴍɪɴɢ Gᴀs Wᴏᴜʟᴅ Hᴀᴠᴇ Iʟʟᴜᴍɪɴᴀᴛᴇᴅ Tʜᴇ Wᴏʀʟᴅ.
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    Heh, reminds me of what another product of humanity said.
    Tʜᴇ Sᴜɴ Wᴏᴜʟᴅ Nᴏᴛ Hᴀᴠᴇ Rɪsᴇɴ. . . A Mᴇʀᴇ Bᴀʟʟ Oғ Fʟᴀᴍɪɴɢ Gᴀs Wᴏᴜʟᴅ Hᴀᴠᴇ Iʟʟᴜᴍɪɴᴀᴛᴇᴅ Tʜᴇ Wᴏʀʟᴅ.
    Actually, I think that's the mentioned bit of the book. Unless what I quoted was in fact a direct quote and not a paraphrasing of what you just said. Which it might be.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Gunnerkrigg Court 3: Mystery Solved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    I'd say the closest one could call her truly emotionless while still being the same character is if she is a philosophical zombie. But even then, she would still have emotions, she just wouldn't feel them.
    If she were a philosophical zombie, then she wouldn't appear so emotionless. P-zombies are capable of emulating human emotions flawlessly, even though they lack the capacity to feel them.
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