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  1. - Top - End - #511
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by eee View Post
    With that kind of belief system, it would be unethical NOT to try to take over.
    Hes a mad loon then (Not all sparks are). That doesn't make him any better.

    He is a selfish prick who doesn't know what he is dealing with and was SURE of his own superiority.
    Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-07-22 at 10:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Why would Tarvek be a better ruler then Klaus? Sure he may be more popular because of his "right" (we know nobility is very picky about inheritance). He would also have the advantage of having the Heterodyne by his side. But other than that, I don't think he would be any better than (non-wasped) Klaus. And anyway I wouldn't trust a ruler that conspired with the Other.
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  3. - Top - End - #513
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by petersohn View Post
    Why would Tarvek be a better ruler then Klaus?
    I think eee meant that Tarvek would be a better ruler than Klaus *in Tarvek's opinion*--his entire post was about how Tarvek's own beliefs might be driving him to do what he's doing.

  4. - Top - End - #514
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by petersohn View Post
    Why would Tarvek be a better ruler then Klaus? Sure he may be more popular because of his "right" (we know nobility is very picky about inheritance). He would also have the advantage of having the Heterodyne by his side. But other than that, I don't think he would be any better than (non-wasped) Klaus. And anyway I wouldn't trust a ruler that conspired with the Other.
    I don't think eee is saying that. Rather, this is a description of Tav's thought processes. Note the emphasis on HE.

    Also, I think people are forgetting that Tavrek experimented on Avenka, yes, but after that he had the Other there herself, and she did the work to download herself into that head. Odds are good that either

    A. Her tutilege gave him greater insights then before, allowing improvements to his existing work.

    B. She just gave the head her voice when she worked on it, being rather intimately acquainted with herself and frankly a better spark.

    or

    C. a combination thereof. His new improved work made her giving the head everything it needed very easy.
    Last edited by kagato23; 2012-07-23 at 02:12 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #515
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    One would expect Klaus's war room to be less chaotic.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    I read it through several times because I didn't understand Tarvek's intentions. This strip and what comes after clearly indicates that Tarvek deliberately changed Anevka's head to Lucrezia, and while we have no indication since then that he would be conspiring with her, we also have no indication that he would regret doing this. So until we get a clarification on why he did this, he remains at least in the "suspicious" state for me.

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    I think Klaus is trying to save what he can. He decided to taka Agatha alive to avoid carpet bombing Mechanicsburg, or at least save some time until Gil can unwasp him.
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  7. - Top - End - #517
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Landis963 View Post
    That seems like an awful amount of preparation for a Spark (even a crazy-Genre Savvy one like Lucrezia), and besides, Anevka could tell revenants to "Sleep" and they would obey. Before she became Clancrezia.
    Yeah, but those people where already supposed to obey Anevka and weren't picked for their brains.

    Again: Vrin could resist Agatha's commands because she knew she wasn't the Other at the time. The strength of the mind is important. Wasping Agatha, who is able to resist mind transfer, probably wouldn't work just that well.
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  8. - Top - End - #518
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Icedaemon View Post
    One would expect Klaus's war room to be less chaotic.
    Been hanging with the Jaegers for to long I guess.

    And I think this is a score for the Baron. Someone (who?) gave him some info and he figured out a reason to try and keep Agatha alive. Clankrezia probably told him to "act normaly" and he is pushing as far as he can with it. Before Clankrezia showed up, The Baron was trying to have Agatha eliminated now it's the opposite. Clankrezia certianly wants Agatha dead and the Baron knows that she has not been totaly taken over by the Other.

  9. - Top - End - #519
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Been hanging with the Jaegers for to long I guess.

    And I think this is a score for the Baron. Someone (who?) gave him some info and he figured out a reason to try and keep Agatha alive. Clankrezia probably told him to "act normaly" and he is pushing as far as he can with it. Before Clankrezia showed up, The Baron was trying to have Agatha eliminated now it's the opposite. Clankrezia certianly wants Agatha dead and the Baron knows that she has not been totaly taken over by the Other.
    Or she thinks she's just one broken locket away from controlling Mechanisburg.
    Not that it would work. Agatha's friends know to look out for signs of Lucy-ness. Zeetha especially will be hard to fool, but Clankrezia dosn't know that.
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  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    I just checked, and Boris got the full run-down on the actual situation with Agatha vs The Other. Today's comic indicates that he has passed this information on to the Baron, and I expect the Baron is smart enough to figure out just how much this explains the dynamics behind events in Sturmhalten and especially his Wasping and the aftermath - Agatha's sudden change when she put on the necklace.

    I think the Baron may be running a multi-layered plan with fallbacks, here, designed around the conclusion that Boris's information is completely correct.
    A) Agatha is the greatest potential threat to Clankrezia in existence. Therefore, give her as much room to strengthen her position in preparation for that conflict as he can get away with.
    B) When he is inevitably forced to take action against her, leave her the opportunity to escape and resume fighting even if he does initially beat her.
    C) If the two of them come face to face and she knows about the Baron being wasped, from any combination of deductions, memories stolen from Lucragatha, Tarvek, or the Baron himself giving her information, she may be able to countermand Clankrezia's orders. Capturing her alive may make such a meeting possible, and if he can pull it off it would be an instant coup against Clankrezia and drastically change the conflict.
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  11. - Top - End - #521
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I just checked, and Boris got the full run-down on the actual situation with Agatha vs The Other. Today's comic indicates that he has passed this information on to the Baron, and I expect the Baron is smart enough to figure out just how much this explains the dynamics behind events in Sturmhalten and especially his Wasping and the aftermath - Agatha's sudden change when she put on the necklace.
    A good catch, but I will go one further: Boris is the one pulling the strings.

    He did get a full-run down on the situation which means he knows Agatha has a copy of The Other in his head -- not that she is some sort of "Queen Revenant." Since The Baron is closely controlled by The Other it is unlikely he would have had the freedom to "invent" this particular fiction and, more important, the War Room implies that Boris was the one to bring this information to their attention. Now why would Boris be lying to the Baron?

    (1) After listening to Klaus's rant at Gil he seemed concerned particularly when Klaus says he "mistrusts coincidences."

    (2) Clankcrezia just so happened to be there to settle down Klaus -- with minor injuries -- and Klaus is apparently listening to her. It is a convenient coincidence that she was there to intervene and that her qualities make her a good choice for bodyguard.

    Now, it is likely that Boris's original story was part of a bargain with the Jaegergenerals after his conference but now he's checking up on Klaus's story to see which coincidence is actually suspicious.
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  12. - Top - End - #522
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    "Queen Revenant" is a valid description for what Agatha is. A normal Revenant is bound to the will of the Other, Agatha has a copy of The Other living inside her head.

    Of course, this could be more subtle resistance on Klaus's part. He knows Agatha is able to command the Revenants. Assuming that he's forced to obey Clankretzia's orders (But is not actually loyal to her), if he can somehow explain to Agatha what has happened, she may be able to order him to "Behave exactly as he would normally", or simply order the Wasp to deactivate and give him his free will back. But to do that he needs to get Agatha here without violating any orders.
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  13. - Top - End - #523
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Yay, Klaus! Way to fight against Lucrezia's instructions! It's a good thing she's not there to block his improvisations, but then, I still think she's the one bringing the monsters and forces from Strumhalten to attack Mechanicsburg...

    Quote Originally Posted by petersohn View Post
    I read it through several times because I didn't understand Tarvek's intentions. This strip and what comes after clearly indicates that Tarvek deliberately changed Anevka's head to Lucrezia, and while we have no indication since then that he would be conspiring with her, we also have no indication that he would regret doing this. So until we get a clarification on why he did this, he remains at least in the "suspicious" state for me.
    It is even worse if you take a broader view. At that point Tarvek pretty much had control of everything. Lucrezia-in-Agatha was out. The Geister leadership was down. Anevka was neutralized, and the Lucrezia in the robot head was locked in a box. He could have stepped out of that room and taken over Strumhalten without much problem. Except - and this is where his motive comes in - he knew Klaus knew something was going on there and an examiner would be coming to find out what. Tarvek needed to disappear, he needed to keep learning Lucrezia's secrets both to further his ambitions and to have any chance of getting her out of Agatha, and he needed a reliable, super-intelligent Anevka to explain things and deflect all suspicion as to what had really happened. And within the constraints he was working under at the time, that meant Lucrezia.

    Also, don't forget, he CAN verbally control Anevka's body. He gave himself a trump card he can use that will take robo-Lucrezia out whenever he plays it. Assuming she isn't sneaky enough to examine that robot body and find and correct that little defect, first. Tarvek is playing both a short and long game, and he's always trying to give himself every advantage in both he can...

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Been hanging with the Jaegers for to long I guess.
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  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    I would be surprised if Lucy was able to undo Tarvek's built-in trump card. She would need to know to look for it, and Anveka managed to wear the body for years with no idea it was there. But it only works if Tarvek can personally give the order.

    Also, Lucretzia is actually very limited in her power right now. She holds Klaus's strings, but she can't be too obvious about her control. The Knights of Jove are operating on their own schemes, the Minor Sparks are basically dead or captured at this point, but nobody was telling them what to do.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Since The Baron is closely controlled by The Other it is unlikely he would have had the freedom to "invent" this particular fiction and, more important, the War Room implies that Boris was the one to bring this information to their attention. Now why would Boris be lying to the Baron?
    Only one quible from a very good post. The war room scene shows it was NOT Boris that gave the info. He was asking what happened/why things changed. So where did the info come from?

    On a side note, the Baron has not mentioned Punch and Judy. Did he "accidentally" forget to tell Clankrezia.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Tarvek isn't ethical. He is willing to throw a stable empire (That just happens to be unpopular) into war because he wants to rule.
    Tarvek is ethical. He is also a schemer and a political revolutionary.

    Stability not being a virtue in its own right, the two are not mutually exclusive.

    Tarvek's ethics are the ethics of noblesse oblige. He claims the privileges of nobility, but like all good noblemen, is fully prepared to assume the responsibilities as well. People like Tarvek are why the feudal system survived for 1000 years in Europe and longer in Japan. People like his father are why it ultimately failed.

    He and Klaus have a lot in common. I imagine if Tarvek did become the ruler of Europa, he would rule with a different style, but many of the same core principles -- a little bit of "I know what's better for you" combined with a healthy dose of "you WILL behave" and a dash of "it's good to be the King."
    Last edited by Imgran; 2012-07-23 at 01:26 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #527
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Only one quible from a very good post. The war room scene shows it was NOT Boris that gave the info. He was asking what happened/why things changed. So where did the info come from?
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    Panel 2 -- Mecha General says "due to new information somebody brought in." In English, this is a veiled way of casting blame on a present person, particularly if they are complaining.

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    Panel 3 -- The Baron explicitly links the "Revenant Queen" information as having come from Boris.

    Boris is surprised that the War Room is in such disarray that they are formulating an entirely new plan after only being in session for 5 minutes. Perhaps he did not foresee that The Baron would act so precipitously in light of his report or, as is much more likely, the Baron's Secretary does not like surprises -- particularly when he is acting as a double-agent.
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  18. - Top - End - #528
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by petersohn View Post
    I read it through several times because I didn't understand Tarvek's intentions. This strip and what comes after clearly indicates that Tarvek deliberately changed Anevka's head to Lucrezia, and while we have no indication since then that he would be conspiring with her, we also have no indication that he would regret doing this. So until we get a clarification on why he did this, he remains at least in the "suspicious" state for me.

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    I think Klaus is trying to save what he can. He decided to taka Agatha alive to avoid carpet bombing Mechanicsburg, or at least save some time until Gil can unwasp him.
    At that point Anveka was actively trying to kill both him and Lucrezia. He needed to protect Lucrezia at the time because protecting Lucrezia was the same thing as protecting Agatha. And obviously, he needed to save his own life in order to undo his father's damage at all.

    Tarvek was at a poker table with at least three other players. Lucrezia, Anveka, and Agatha. He can't let Agatha lose, and his hand is too weak to allow him to play directly against either Anveka or Lucrezia because he doesn't have enough assets to be sure of a win -- and there's too much at stake to go all in on a ham sandwich. He had to play Lucrezia and Anveka against each other, and doing it the way he did it allowed him only one faction to play against and thus more freedom to maneuver.

    He probably still loses without interference from Lars and the Baron, but he has a better chance with only one person to play against. And if he can subdue Agcrezia while Clankrezia is out of the way, he can possibly salvage the situation entirely, cure Agatha, and preserve Sturmhold -- IF he can buy enough time and freedom to work.

    In the back of his mind, his order of priorities were as follows:

    1: Remain alive
    2: protect Agatha
    3: Try to gain the freedom of operation required to save Agatha under Lucrezia's nose
    4: Try to do the above without revealing his hand to the Baron.
    5: Finish the "game" in full control of Sturmhold.

    Obviously it wasn't exactly a flawless victory on his part, but given what he had to work with, 2 out of 5 ain't bad. And his actions definitely dragged things out until third parties like Lars' party and the Baron's airships could get involved.
    Last edited by Imgran; 2012-07-23 at 01:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    Tarvek is ethical. He is also a schemer and a political revolutionary.

    Stability not being a virtue in its own right, the two are not mutually exclusive.

    Tarvek's ethics are the ethics of noblesse oblige. He claims the privileges of nobility, but like all good noblemen, is fully prepared to assume the responsibilities as well. People like Tarvek are why the feudal system survived for 1000 years in Europe and longer in Japan. People like his father are why it ultimately failed.

    He and Klaus have a lot in common. I imagine if Tarvek did become the ruler of Europa, he would rule with a different style, but many of the same core principles -- a little bit of "I know what's better for you" combined with a healthy dose of "you WILL behave" and a dash of "it's good to be the King."
    Tarvek see's the Wulfenbach's as unlawful tyrants who rule through force, but I get the feeling that's largely because 1: They were a minor house before Klaus conquered everything, and 2: He would like to rule himself.

    It's not about the noble revolutionary overthrowing the Evil Empire, from what we have seen the Wulfenbachs are not that bad. They're brutal and quick to use force, but generally that's only against Sparks, and it's not like harsh punishments for crimes are especially unusual all things considered.

    They have a few monsters working for them (as in people like Dupree, most of their actual Monsters seem fairly nice.), but Klaus generally keeps them under control, but they're generally fairly forgiving, how many other nations do you know who have "Leave your weapons and Go home with two weeks pay" as a standard policy for captured enemy troops.

    I wouldn't call Tarvek Evil. He is certainly well intentioned, but his perspective is off. As a Noble Spark he is exactly the type of person that is most personally affected by Wulfenbach rule, he see's them as tyrannical because they see him as a threat (as they should). He's got a personal beef with Wulfenbach (For being sent home), and as the heir the Storm King, he thinks it's his duty to rule Europa.

    He's probably a more capable ruler than Gil. At best, Gil would become his father, glowering at the world in order to keep things quiet. Were he in power, Tarvek is cunning enough to actually change the status quo for the better.
    However, in order to reach that point, Tarvek would need to first destroy the Wulfenbach empire, then re-conquer Europa in his own name, a long and bloody process (Even the thought that the Baron might be temporarily out of commission was enough to trigger a war). At best he is able to pull together an alliance, and spends the rest of his reign watching his back in case one of his "Allies" gets ideas. At worst he destroys Europa while conquering it and ends up the King of the Ashes.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    You're slightly missing the point.

    Tarvek is not moral because Klaus is evil. Tarvek is moral because Tarvek is moral, and his enmity with Klaus has no effect on a true analysis of Tarvek's moral position one way or the other.

    He may want power over Europa, but it's important to ask how he'd plan to get it. Presuming open war is presumptive. Tarvek is more likely to try to operate through weaving a web of alliances sufficient to make Klaus cautious, then building for an overwhelming show of force.
    Last edited by Imgran; 2012-07-23 at 10:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    At that point Anveka was actively trying to kill both him and Lucrezia. He needed to protect Lucrezia at the time because protecting Lucrezia was the same thing as protecting Agatha. And obviously, he needed to save his own life in order to undo his father's damage at all.

    Tarvek was at a poker table with at least three other players. Lucrezia, Anveka, and Agatha. He can't let Agatha lose, and his hand is too weak to allow him to play directly against either Anveka or Lucrezia because he doesn't have enough assets to be sure of a win -- and there's too much at stake to go all in on a ham sandwich. He had to play Lucrezia and Anveka against each other, and doing it the way he did it allowed him only one faction to play against and thus more freedom to maneuver.

    He probably still loses without interference from Lars and the Baron, but he has a better chance with only one person to play against. And if he can subdue Agcrezia while Clankrezia is out of the way, he can possibly salvage the situation entirely, cure Agatha, and preserve Sturmhold -- IF he can buy enough time and freedom to work.
    I still don't get it. He disassembled Anevka before changing it to the Lucrezia head, so she was no threat at the time. Since Lu-in-Agatha (probably) didn't know about the Lucrezia-head, he didn't have to do it because of her. The only reason I can see for this is that he wanted to conspire with Lucrezia against the Baron.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    I don't understand while people think Tarvek would be a better ruler than Gil. Gil has had a *lot* of training and is much more likely to try and talk before using force. Don't confuse his personal willingness to take risks with not being political. This page is a great example of Gil in politics. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070713

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by petersohn View Post
    Since Lu-in-Agatha (probably) didn't know about the Lucrezia-head,
    That's a very strange idea you have there, especially considering that Lucrezia in Agatha is the one who introduces the head to Tarvek.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Candle Jack View Post
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    Thank you good sir for this great reference.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by datalaughing View Post
    That's a very strange idea you have there, especially considering that Lucrezia in Agatha is the one who introduces the head to Tarvek.
    *sigh* This Sturmhalten arc was always too complicated for me to understand.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    I don't understand while people think Tarvek would be a better ruler than Gil.
    I don't think anyone is really arguing that - it's more why Tarvek thinks he'd be better than the Wulfenbachs at ruling. Since his reasoning tends to start with "because I'm the descendent of the Storm King" which may be crucial to Tarvek but ludicrous to our modern sensibilities, his case is actually weakened. Add to that that he'd need a bloodbath to even become leader, I'd say that the absolute ability to rule of Gil and Tarvek needs to be weighted with the ease by which one or the other could become supreme ruler.

    Now, ignoring all that, I suppose there could be a case made to why Tarvek would be a better ruler, all other considerations being equal. Gil, for one thing, is too nice to be as effective as Klaus (although he is learning). But if I had to choose, I'd still want Gil. He is honest enough to not play favourites, which Tarvek would almost certainly do.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    "introduces the head to Tarvek." - My guess: Tarvek made the head (spare in case regular personality in his clank "sister" got out of control) and gave it to Lu, then Lu put her mind into the head.

    Tarvek is a storm king based on his arranged mother. Gil may have similar claim to storm king based on similar mother. Sparky wise Gil with lightning generator has already shown more "storm" with the lightning generator, which made his father/Klaus *really* happy. Later Klaus suggests Gil is prince and tells story to bard that paints Gil as storm king.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    I suspect Klaus's approval with Gil's lightning show was more about him proving himself capable of dealing with threats to the empire than storm king shenanigans.
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XIII: "Gott's Leedle Feesh in Trousers!"

    Quote Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte View Post
    I suspect Klaus's approval with Gil's lightning show was more about him proving himself capable of dealing with threats to the empire than storm king shenanigans.
    Yep. As for Gil being a Prince it comes from his mothers side as she is a Queen.

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