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  1. - Top - End - #1291
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    That's a very different style game, one where what's really encouraged is preparation and planning, and not fighting itself - in a system like that, you should really know that you're going to win before you even engage.

    That's a playstyle that 3.x just flat-out supports better than 4e. I don't think that particular playstyle was really an objective of 4e, and I'm frankly not sure it *should* be an objective of 5e. (Not that there's anything wrong with it, I just suspect (meaning - no data) that it's relatively niche).
    This was just a comment on what I would consider high lethality.

    I don't actually run high lethality games all that often unless it's some challenge run. (I made a challenge arena-like once in 3E, where the lowest OP character was a shadow jumping infinite-crit-chaining monster. Note, *lowest* OP. It had a 80% death rate per challenge. XD Later, the "champion" character who never got to play had a time taken to cast buffs of about 3 IG days and a description of the procedure about a page long)

    But to initiate a combat against equally matched opponents in the style I run means to risk death 50% of the time... if it was an arena battle, which basically never happens anyway. That is what it means to be equally matched. (EDIT: and obviously the point is to make the fight as unequal as possible)

    I don't particularly make enemies try to kill downed characters (unless the PCs keep healing downed guys), but they WILL focus fire and they WILL nova. NPCs built to fight will have sensible fighting builds, not random classes thrown together. They use PC tactics just like PCs... use PC tactics.

    It's just that I like to run campaigns with a PC/NPC blind ruleset. No special treatment.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-07-31 at 02:33 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #1292
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    That's not it at all. Players don't choose what rules they're using, the DM does. Everyone at the table plays by the same rules in 5E.
    I can't find it right now, but I do recall a designer describing their vision of a 5e group as a bare-bones Fighter with just Abilities, BAB, Saves, and Equipment playing in the same group as a Fighter with all that + Feats, Skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc. I'll keep looking for it.
    Last edited by Stubbazubba; 2012-07-31 at 07:45 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #1293
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stubbazubba View Post
    I can't find it right now, but I do recall a designer describing their vision of a 5e group as a bare-bones Fighter with just Abilities, BAB, Saves, and Equipment playing in the same group as a Fighter with all that + Feats, Skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc. I'll keep looking for it.
    That's correct, some of the first statements released showed WOTC's intent that not everybody at the table needs use the same rules.

    We'll just have to see how much of this statement remains in the game when it's complete; for what it's worth, none of it is visible in the first playtest.
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  4. - Top - End - #1294
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    These questions assume that characters fall unconsious in the first place. Yes, that does happen, but not commonly, and generally the leader will bring them back up quickly afterwards. I've never seen stabilization come up above level 3 or so: combat will simply be over before a character has the time to run out of death saves.
    It's all about different optimization levels. For a higher-op party, the above will be true.

    In my own group, nobody's particularly high-op, because that often depends on equipment they just don't have access to. (I'm running Dark Sun with inherent bonuses; the items they get usually add to breadth more than enhancing their specialization.) Everyone's built pretty solidly using their powers and feats, with inherent bonuses and a few magic items unrelated to any wishlists. Tactics vary; they generally focus-fire well, unless I'm making that difficult. We have characters go unconscious in about three out of four battles, though getting to 2 death saves or a few points from negative bloodied is not nearly as common as it used to be.

    We've had PCs triggering second winds for other PCs pretty often with Heal checks, and at least one person takes their Second Wind in most encounters. So yeah - I'd say experience varies heavily between tables.

    -O

  5. - Top - End - #1295
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Uhm, do you have seen the table ? Because every single point you raised is on this table. Big damage is +1; save or dies range from +2 to +3, depending on the specific type; spell levels are worth +1 for 1st and 2nd level, and +2 for anything above (which is bullcrap, but hey, its there); different kinds of immunities are listed separately and range from +1 to +2 and there is a generic "special defense" for +1.

    Figuring out the XP value for any monster using those guidelines is actually pretty easy.
    OK, you made me actually dig out my AD&D DMG (2nd Edition) and look at the table (p. 69).

    It's total crap. How can you defend this? "Possesses Magic Items usable against PCs = +1 HD," "Invisible At-Will = +1 HD," "Level 2 or Lower Spells (e.g. Aid, Magic Missile) = +1 HD," "Level 3 or greater spells (e.g. Fireball, Wish) = +1 HD." This is exactly what I was talking about: rules that give you no actual guidance on how much XP a monster should be worth. It's telling you that a Hobgoblin who can cast Fireball is worth just as much XP as one that can cast Wish or one that can become Invisible At Will.

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  6. - Top - End - #1296
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    I can't find it right now, but I do recall a designer describing their vision of a 5e group as a bare-bones Fighter with just Abilities, BAB, Saves, and Equipment playing in the same group as a Fighter with all that + Feats, Skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc. I'll keep looking for it.
    Zack S. (who was hired by WotC though to what end he really hasn't said) postulated on such a system for his Type V posts (google them if you want, his site is usually NSFW). And either he or Jeff Rients I believe actually sat down and ran a game session with each player using a different rules system (some not even D&D) and stated that with the right DM tools and a bit of tweaking, it actually could be quite doable.

    That said, I can think of a couple of ways to make it work. Building off the posts from Zack, you essentially want to build a system where the mechanically simple classes get a pretty standard flat bonus progression. For the complex classes, they get the better options at the expense of that progression. For example if a basic fighter gets a + to HP, BAB and Saves every level, a "complex" fighter might trade away one or more of those pluses to instead gain access to powers.

    Another option would be to concede what early D&D recognized long ago, which was more powerful classes should advance slower. Give each class their own experience progression and have the simpler classes level faster than the complex classes. Heck if you do it right, that makes having the simple / medium / complex classes built into the book really easy because you can have different tiers of classes to group together (and add or remove as modules) and you don't necessarily have to worry that a level 10 basic fighter and a level 10 complex fighter are of equal power because they shouldn't be. Perhaps a level 5 complex fighter should be able to hold their own in battles that would take a level 8 or 9 simple fighter, and that's perfectly OK as long as it's given up front that comparing levels across classes and tiers is not possible, and that you should rather compare total XP values to get an idea of the relative powers.

  7. - Top - End - #1297
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stubbazubba View Post
    I can't find it right now, but I do recall a designer describing their vision of a 5e group as a bare-bones Fighter with just Abilities, BAB, Saves, and Equipment playing in the same group as a Fighter with all that + Feats, Skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc. I'll keep looking for it.
    In 4e, essentials fighters and regular ones seem to do okay at the same table.

  8. - Top - End - #1298
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stubbazubba View Post
    I can't find it right now, but I do recall a designer describing their vision of a 5e group as a bare-bones Fighter with just Abilities, BAB, Saves, and Equipment playing in the same group as a Fighter with all that + Feats, Skills, Combat Maneuvers, etc. I'll keep looking for it.
    Sounds like Monte Cook making claims that seem unbelivable and half an hour later are explained in more detail by another designer, who essentially says "actually no, that's not at all what we have planned". There were lots of such statements before Cook was removed from the team again.

  9. - Top - End - #1299
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    In 4e, essentials fighters and regular ones seem to do okay at the same table.
    Absolutely. It's why people who insist on calling the Essentials releases an "edition" baffle me.

    -O

  10. - Top - End - #1300
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegel View Post
    Well you could play a game that is Not DnD. Suprising idea i know. What else could there be...
    Oh, we do. I play D&D 4e, Star Wars Saga, Dragon Age RPG, Solar System, Microscope, Pathfinder, D&D 5e (playtest and when it comes out), several games I've made up myself, and that's just the roleplaying games. There's also Munchkin, Settlers of Catan, Magic: the Gathering, Wrath of Ashardalon, Diplomacy...

    When I want to play a different game, I play it. Each of them are unique, and I like each of them for different reasons. Certain players don't like other games, but D&D is one we can all agree on, because it has varying levels of complexity at the same table. 5e sounds like it's trying to improve on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by huttj509 View Post
    I think we should have simple classes. I think we should have complex classes. I do NOT think that the split should be along magic/mundane lines. Ideally, if you wanted to play a concept, you could do it either complex or simple.
    I agree. I made a Essentials style class for the sorcerer that had the simplicity of the Slayer but with ranged magical attacks and it worked fine. The fighter's Combat Superiority can, in theory, be used for either simplicity (using your dice for more damage every turn) or complexity (using your dice for maneuvers and stunts) without needing two different subclasses. That's a 5-foot step forward for D&D.

  11. - Top - End - #1301
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Update on the "incoming" second playtest packet: https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article....d/4ll/20120806
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  12. - Top - End - #1302
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Update on the "incoming" second playtest packet: https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article....d/4ll/20120806
    It seems like a game my group and I will have more fun playtesting than the last one, at least!

    And it makes for a good excuse to have people over for D&D an extra night. So I'll be looking forward to it.

    -O

  13. - Top - End - #1303
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Update on the "incoming" second playtest packet: https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article....d/4ll/20120806
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  14. - Top - End - #1304
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    From my point of view:

    It looks like they are taking the feedback and doing something with it. Although I do admit I hope I see more progress then what is listed not really changes but stuff they didn't have in the first set of material.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dublock View Post
    Although I do admit I hope I see more progress then what is listed not really changes but stuff they didn't have in the first set of material.
    Agreed. When I evaluated the first playtest packet I was positive that there were a lot more rules that we just weren't being shown. However, after reading this latest article, I'm starting to wonder if that's really all they've got at this point...
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  16. - Top - End - #1306
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Wait and see until we get a comprehensive list to the changes. They've changed more than the big topics that they discussed in the article, and we don't have the specifics of those changes anyway. I feel that the changes they've mentioned are positive changes, and am optimistic about the next rules update.
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  17. - Top - End - #1307
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Agreed. When I evaluated the first playtest packet I was positive that there were a lot more rules that we just weren't being shown. However, after reading this latest article, I'm starting to wonder if that's really all they've got at this point...
    Working on the assumption that they are serious about wanting to build a sort of Rosetta Stone version of D&D, it's absolutely critical that they get the basic core of the system right. Spending extra time on that now will improve things considerably in the future. Especially if they can define and stick to hard lines between what is intended for the core and what can and should go into modules.

  18. - Top - End - #1308
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Anyone want to give the playtest adventure a spin? I can DM if needed.
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  19. - Top - End - #1309
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    it sounds like it could be interesting, though I've never done a pbp game before
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  20. - Top - End - #1310
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    We wouldn't be able to do it PbP because of the NDA. I'd rather do it via Skype or something similar, either the IM side or voice chat, whatever everyone prefers. (I'm fine with either)
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  21. - Top - End - #1311
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    I dont actually have anything like what you were describing, can you think of any other options/, if not, that's OK, but it did sound fun
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  22. - Top - End - #1312
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Togath View Post
    I dont actually have anything like what you were describing, can you think of any other options/, if not, that's OK, but it did sound fun
    Well, Skype is free and pretty easy to use/install, but basically any kind of instant messaging or voice-chat system would be fine.
    Last edited by AgentPaper; 2012-08-06 at 11:22 PM.
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    We wouldn't be able to do it PbP because of the NDA. I'd rather do it via Skype or something similar, either the IM side or voice chat, whatever everyone prefers. (I'm fine with either)
    You can to pbp, just not in a public forum.

  24. - Top - End - #1314
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    do you know of any free things like "skype"?, Looking at the wikipedia page for skype is sounds insecure, or at least annoying(as according to the wikipedia page for it) it cant have it's updating turned off(and I've disabled auto updates for all other programs on my computer).
    I'm not really familiar with communication programs released within the past 10 years, so my knowledge is limited to house phones and email, so any suggestions for things that would work for running a 5E playtest game are welcome.
    edit: ah, so there is a type of pbp that's allowed, but how do you do pbp without it being public?
    Last edited by Togath; 2012-08-06 at 11:48 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #1315
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    I don't really like the PbP format anyways, mostly because it's so slow. Skype is free as I said, and yes it's not perfect, but personally I haven't had any trouble with it, and once we're done you can always uninstall it.

    Also, I just checked, there is an option in the settings to turn off automatic updates.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Ah, I'll try skype then
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  27. - Top - End - #1317
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    We wouldn't be able to do it PbP because of the NDA. I'd rather do it via Skype or something similar, either the IM side or voice chat, whatever everyone prefers. (I'm fine with either)
    Here's the current response on that...

    http://wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?...ews/dndnextfaq
    Q: Can I run an online game via email, Skype, Google Hangout or a play-by-post forum?

    A: Yes, you may run online games via Skype, Google Hangout or play-by-post forum provided you to do not post or upload any transcripts from your playtest, upload any playtest materials and make sure that all members of your group have signed up to playtest through the official playtest sign up process.
    It was limited at first, but they eased back.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentPaper View Post
    Anyone want to give the playtest adventure a spin? I can DM if needed.
    I'm potentially interested in a Skype game. PM me the details.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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  29. - Top - End - #1319
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    I'll just throw up my skype info here, just contact me there if you're interested:

    Skype Name: agent1paper
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  30. - Top - End - #1320
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread

    Ok, I think i've signed up for skype now, with the username; xalafu
    Meow(Steam page)
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