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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I am sad that Malefactor doesn't have a descriptor paragraph yet T_T

    Remind me to call you in when the "Benefactor" is finished, Morph.

    (Accepting suggestions for a better name)


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Added a bunch of classes to the Tier list. I'm currently looking over the Dimensional Conduit, and I'm thinking that from its signature ability alone it should be at least Tier 2, and definitely not lower than High Tier 3. At level 1 they have a very strong base to start with, since there's two of them. They don't have other class abilities, which brings it back down a bit, but it definitely has major roleplaying applications and the conduit's double still has class abilities itself as well (and might even have better ability scores than the conduit - which is kind of weird since otherwise the double has to be exactly the same at birth). At level 8, it comes down to having 3 cohorts, and at level 20 this has been upgraded to a squad of 6 level 15 characters under your control -- you just can't use all of them at any one time. A downside is that they may not own items, though they may borrow the conduit's, which makes them ideal candidates for Vow of Poverty. Upon further reading, the doubles enter existence replacing the conduit in their exact spot, wearing their magic items, making this a non-issue (or does VoP allow for borrowing items this way? If so...).

    Under the header "Doubles as a Disguise" it is also explained that doubles can use the Disguise skill to fool other people into thinking they are the conduit. What I wonder now is whether they can fool people into thinking they aren't. I mean, they look largely the same and they take the place of the conduit. Many could easily assume them to be the same person.

    The header "Doubles and Spells (and Psionics)" is also a little confusing. Is this the spells/day table for the conduit, and thus shared by all the doubles, or is this for all the doubles seperately? If the latter, what happens to doubles with levels in PrCs that grant spells? And is the doubles' level used to determine the spells/day, or the conduit's? (In the case of the doubles' level, they only go up to 5th-level spells.) As for psionic powers, do they use the normal power's level, or is it based on the amounts of power points used, such as when it is augmented?

    As for "Items and Class Abilities", what about the other way that parts of the class that aren't part of the double (like the mentioned familiar and animal companion) can go? What happens to them when the double is sent back to their dimension and the conduit returns? Do they remain, or are they sent back as well?

    Either way, it is easily possible for someone to pick Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes for their doubles, even ones that do not rely on spells or powers. Artificer is an easy one, for example. And since you're playing a dimensional conduit anyway, you're likely allowed to use homebrew, so you might even use high-Tier homebrew classes for them.
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  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Two thiiings,
    Looking at the first posts, I spotted that the formatting is broked in the second post's tome of battle spoiler. There's a broken link too.

    Also
    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    It was like I was standing on a giant compost heap with my trusty shovel, looking for gemstones and finding just a handful of semi-precious stones. ;_;
    Spotted this by following a link. Can I sig it? xD
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Two thiiings,
    Looking at the first posts, I spotted that the formatting is broked in the second post's tome of battle spoiler. There's a broken link too.
    Around where exactly is it broken? (Like, a specific discipline?)

    If you mean the "Subsystems and Expansions" posts on the first page, the thing in the spoiler is supposed to be a template I use for myself stored there out of convenience so I can use it whenever I come across new disciplines. Since posting the old thing I've added at least twenty disciplines.

    Also

    Spotted this by following a link. Can I sig it? xD
    Go right ahead.


    Talking about the disciplines, once I get around to reviewing them further in depth and ranking them, I should remember to also see how much they rely on their associated skill, so that people taking the discipline know beforehand whether or not to invest much into it.

    Also, I've noticed I might not have been using my Original and Expanded tags consistently. I'm thinking of putting some greater scrutiny on Expanded (and thus add/remove some) and possibly removing the Original tag. Either that, or slap it on everything that doesn't have any of the other Inspiration tags, which would mean putting it on classes that are pretty generic in flavour. I'm at a bit of a loss of how to handle this one and have been for a while.

    On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.
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  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Around where exactly is it broken? (Like, a specific discipline?)

    If you mean the "Subsystems and Expansions" posts on the first page, the thing in the spoiler is supposed to be a template I use for myself stored there out of convenience so I can use it whenever I come across new disciplines. Since posting the old thing I've added at least twenty disciplines.
    I do mean that post, and there's a link named 'Empty Word', which links to the web address 'x'.

    Go right ahead.
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    On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.
    Well, personally, I'd call one of them not tier 2, or tier 3, but a bad class. If you're so good at killing things with swords that you can't fit into tier 4, you are broken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Hm, Morph Bark could I have you reasoning behind putting the Haruspex at tier 2? It never seemed much like a tier 2 to me. Always seemed like a tier 3 with high out of combat use but less in combat use.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.

  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.
    The Druids and the Animorph*


    *Aberrant is in post #44, Animorph is in #2

    Serpentine, were any changes made to the Animorph when you added it to that thread, or is the animorph's standalone thread still current?

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Campaign journals would be invaluable to those with homebrew in the game.

    I notice you limit it to homebrew from this thread. What about individual feats and items?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    On another note, I've been thinking of adding a new tier, which I'd call "Powerful Tier 4". Basically, this would include classes that have a LOT of power, but with prettymuch no versatility. I kind of wonder if this would work though, and whether or not most of the classes who might qualify might not end up more suited for Borderline 3-4, High Tier 3 or Tier 2, making it a defunct concept before I even begin.
    I don't know Tiering in great detail, but this sounds like it could be useful. Try a few candidates (enough for a statistical sample) and see?
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-12-20 at 03:03 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    I don't know Tiering in great detail, but this sounds like it could be useful. Try a few candidates (enough for a statistical sample) and see?
    The tier system is rather bad, as it relies on displaying at least two different variables with a single aspect. Those variables are Versatility and Power, which split into these:

    Versatility:

    T1: Potentially can contribute significantly to any encounter
    T2: Can Contribute to any encounter, can excel at certain encounters
    T3+3x: Can contribute significantly to a single type of encounter, but irrelevant otherwise, X designates classes that have many different types of encounters they can potentially contribute to, but can not be built to do so always.
    T4: Can not contribute significantly even to encounters in which they specialize

    Power:

    T1: Trivializes combat when played well
    T2: Difficult to challenge, but not impossible
    T3: Engaged by combat encounters
    T4: Suffers Adversity in combat encounters
    T5: Liability in combat encounters
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  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.

    Power: Gamebreaking/Powerful/unable to contribute
    Versatility: Everything/versatile/one-dimensional.

    The classical tiers would be:
    T1: Gamebreaking/everything
    T2: Gamebreaking/versatile
    T3: Powerful/versatile
    T4: powerful/one-dimensional or unable to contribute/versatile
    T5/6: unable to contribute/one-dimensional
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  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.

    Power: Gamebreaking/Powerful/unable to contribute
    Versatility: Everything/versatile/one-dimensional.
    you assume the tier system obeys its own overviews (It doesnt).

    also, even arraying it to a limited number of subgroups, you cant really strip it down to lower then 5 for each, Its just that Versatility 3x are classes like Sorcerer, who has to specialize because of their limited spell list.

    While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-20 at 05:01 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    The tier system is explicitly dealing with the former, though. Power comes into it in T2, admittedly, but only as it interacts to versatility.
    5: Does nothing well.
    4: One thing, well.
    3: One thing well, other things alright.
    2: One thing REALLY well, sometimes other things alright
    1: Everything REALLY well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    The tier system is explicitly dealing with the former, though. Power comes into it in T2, admittedly, but only as it interacts to versatility.
    5: Does nothing well.
    4: One thing, well.
    3: One thing well, other things alright.
    2: One thing REALLY well, sometimes other things alright
    1: Everything REALLY well.
    actually, Power is T3-6, where as "How badly can you break the game?" is T1-2.

    It is suposed to be unbiased, but then there would be no T6 if it wasnt. T1-2 is pretty much honest, but afterwards you have to take it as JaronK's oppinion of the classes, as much as where they will be with average Op
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  15. - Top - End - #465
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Not... really?

    It's impossible to consider variety without considering power.
    If one class can do everything, but do it REALLY BADLY, it has less variety than a class that does everything decently. Cause it can actually do them.

    Tier 1/2 are not 'how much' but 'how many ways can one build'. A sorcerer can build one broken thing and take one set of broken spells. Wizard cleric druid break it in a different way every day.

    3 is better than 4 because it has some utility. 4 is better than 5 because it's actually decent at its speciality. 5 is better than 6 because it has something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Not... really?

    It's impossible to consider variety without considering power.
    If one class can do everything, but do it REALLY BADLY, it has less variety than a class that does everything decently. Cause it can actually do them.

    Tier 1/2 are not 'how much' but 'how many ways can one build'. A sorcerer can build one broken thing and take one set of broken spells. Wizard cleric druid break it in a different way every day.

    3 is better than 4 because it has some utility. 4 is better than 5 because it's actually decent at its speciality. 5 is better than 6 because it has something.
    I think you dont understand the point. The Tier system is supposed to for lvls 3-6 completely disregard Power, and only take into account versatility. T1-2 its kinda expected the entire thing is going to be power, because these classes can be optimized to the point of braking the game in half, with their power arranged by how many different ways they can break it.

    except, The Rogue is Tier 4, which is a tier that is only competent at one thing, despite being the posterchild of T3.

    The Initiators have absolutely No versatility at all. Sure they can break spines in half in a variety of ways in combat, but that is Combat alone. They are almost strictly T4 material, but are treated as T3s because they are the most powerful mundanes printed.

    Paladin* is assumed to have none of their support outside of the mount at all, if that even. Warlock isnt allowed crafting, while Artificer is. Barbarian is assumed to be taking Lion Spirit Totem lvl 1, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, while the Factotum is assumed to have taken Iaijutsu Focus, EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, and Quickdraw.

    *Paladin is one of the only classes that even can contribute in standard challenge 3, being able to get 36+ (+1 per extra 2nd lvl spell slot, +8 per fourth, No DMM though because of MFK4) people under the effects of Shield Other simultaneously in one day.
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  17. - Top - End - #467
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

    Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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  18. - Top - End - #468
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

    Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?
    Because factotum is just simply better than it at almost everything. Not the best reasoning but that was the original purpose.

    I wonder if some people should try to redo the tier system, the general idea is good and most of them fit. But I think the one axis tier system isn't useful enough in gauging combat and out of combat versatility and power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Warblades could arguably be tier 4, but swordsages have a decent chunk of skills, while crusaders have healing and auras.

    Rogues... you know what, I agree. Why are Rogues tier 4? They have skills, and are decent in combat. What gives?
    I dont have enough experience with Desert Wind or Shadow hand, but Crusader is as much a T4 as Warblade. Both are only useful in combat, and the healing from Divine Spirit is unusable without a head to pound inside out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Because factotum is just simply better than it at almost everything. Not the best reasoning but that was the original purpose.

    I wonder if some people should try to redo the tier system, the general idea is good and most of them fit. But I think the one axis tier system isn't useful enough in gauging combat and out of combat versatility and power.
    I agree that, thanks to (upto) 10 spells/encounter, the Factotum is better then the rogue for combat. On the other hand, its only better then the rogue 1/Day otherwise, and the DM could be polite one day and throw you 13 traps to be disabled in a row. you either spend 2 weeks waiting for the factotum to get through them, or have the rogue take them all out with his static +4 DD over the Factotum.

    Ive been mentally working on Victory Points (the dev-name for a more detailed tier system) for a while, but the largest problem is, the Tier system has this problem of being a really simple thing for people to understand, and only has one axis, where as you have to spend a bit of time thinking about whether that 1/5 Truenamer or that 3/2 Warblade is better.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    I agree that, thanks to (upto) 10 spells/encounter, the Factotum is better then the rogue for combat. On the other hand, its only better then the rogue 1/Day otherwise, and the DM could be polite one day and throw you 13 traps to be disabled in a row. you either spend 2 weeks waiting for the factotum to get through them, or have the rogue take them all out with his static +4 DD over the Factotum.
    A rogue may be better for straight damage, as long as he's not facing sneak attack-immune foes. Factotum in combat needs iajitsu focus/spell abuse to dish out the pain.

    But out-of-combat? Factotum gets probably as many, if not more skills, since he can focus so much more on Intelligence than the rogue. I assume the "1/day" thing you're talking about is Cunning Knowledge, but... a factotum built as a trapmonkey will have just as many ranks in Search/Disable Device as a rogue will-- the rogue has no inherent skill bonuses (a bonus to defenses against traps, yes. Disabling them, no). Cunning Knowledge is for the skills you didn't bother to take ranks in because they don't come up often.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    A rogue may be better for straight damage, as long as he's not facing sneak attack-immune foes. Factotum in combat needs iajitsu focus/spell abuse to dish out the pain.

    But out-of-combat? Factotum gets probably as many, if not more skills, since he can focus so much more on Intelligence than the rogue. I assume the "1/day" thing you're talking about is Cunning Knowledge, but... a factotum built as a trapmonkey will have just as many ranks in Search/Disable Device as a rogue will-- the rogue has no inherent skill bonuses (a bonus to defenses against traps, yes. Disabling them, no). Cunning Knowledge is for the skills you didn't bother to take ranks in because they don't come up often.
    Rogue and Factotum need about the same investment in both dex and Int, although rogue will be getting less milage if they choose to take the 4 Distracting Attack ranger splash so they can shore up the weaknesses of sneak attack. (4 Distracting Attack Ranger/3 Penetrating Strike Rogue, Sneak Attack vs Everything. you just want a level of Targetteer and a ranged focus though because you dont want to be full attacking in melee with that HP.)

    In other news, let me figure out how to grandiosly write this up, and end this aside where i Ninja Morph's thread to point out that the base system kinda ignored itself.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-21 at 01:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Rogue and Factotum need about the same investment in both dex and Int, although rogue will be getting less milage if they choose to take the 4 Distracting Attack ranger splash so they can shore up the weaknesses of sneak attack. (4 Distracting Attack Ranger/3 Penetrating Strike Rogue, Sneak Attack vs Everything. you just want a level of Targetteer and a ranged focus though because you dont want to be full attacking in melee with that HP.)
    Factotums have a bunch of abilities that let them use Int in the place of a lot of other abilities, making things like Dex and Str less important.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I'm currently looking over the Dimensional Conduit, and I'm thinking that from its signature ability alone it should be at least Tier 2, and definitely not lower than High Tier 3. At level 1 they have a very strong base to start with, since there's two of them.
    Agreed. I think its hard to call the call anything less than Tier 2. I wanted to try to rake it down to Top Tier 3 but realistically its just not doable with the core mechanic of the class. It probably sit quite firmly as a mid Tier 2 by the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    They don't have other class abilities, which brings it back down a bit, but it definitely has major roleplaying applications and the conduit's double still has class abilities itself as well (and might even have better ability scores than the conduit - which is kind of weird since otherwise the double has to be exactly the same at birth).
    If you subscribe to the whole "infinite dimensions" theory then there is a version of each of us somewhere out there which is an Olympic athlete, a special forces bad ass, a famous actor, a leading politician, a religious guru or even a version which is all of these things at once. Its a bit like googling yourself and finding out that the first thing which pops up to do with "you" is that emo blog you made 5 years ago.

    So yer, ultimately doubles may have wildly different ability scores than their conduit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    At level 8, it comes down to having 3 cohorts, and at level 20 this has been upgraded to a squad of 6 level 15 characters under your control -- you just can't use all of them at any one time. A downside is that they may not own items, though they may borrow the conduit's, which makes them ideal candidates for Vow of Poverty. Upon further reading, the doubles enter existence replacing the conduit in their exact spot, wearing their magic items, making this a non-issue (or does VoP allow for borrowing items this way? If so...).
    I'm not actually that familiar with VoP. I always hear people talking about it, but its never been something I've looked into as it seems to bring about a lot of issues. That said I would probably rule that a double who had taken such a vow would probably not allow them self to become one of the conduits doubles as they would know that such an action would provoke such a contentious moral and philosophical issue. Cop out? maybe, but I think it fits the theme. If your a millionaire and you give all your money away to your best friend and they then continue to fund your old life style you have not really embraced the life of the everyman... your probably just a bit eccentric or trying to evade taxman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Under the header "Doubles as a Disguise" it is also explained that doubles can use the Disguise skill to fool other people into thinking they are the conduit. What I wonder now is whether they can fool people into thinking they aren't. I mean, they look largely the same and they take the place of the conduit. Many could easily assume them to be the same person.
    I don't see why not, the door swings both ways on this one. The Olyimpic Athlete version of myself would probably have a hard time passing off as me through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    The header "Doubles and Spells (and Psionics)" is also a little confusing. Is this the spells/day table for the conduit, and thus shared by all the doubles, or is this for all the doubles seperately? If the latter, what happens to doubles with levels in PrCs that grant spells? And is the doubles' level used to determine the spells/day, or the conduit's? (In the case of the doubles' level, they only go up to 5th-level spells.) As for psionic powers, do they use the normal power's level, or is it based on the amounts of power points used, such as when it is augmented?
    The spells/day table is shared amongst all the conduits doubles. This is needed to stop a mega spam of every magic using class out there. Rules as Written psionics are used at their standard power level, but this obviously makes psionics a more attractive option so it may be worth upping this to the "if augmented" level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    As for "Items and Class Abilities", what about the other way that parts of the class that aren't part of the double (like the mentioned familiar and animal companion) can go? What happens to them when the double is sent back to their dimension and the conduit returns? Do they remain, or are they sent back as well?
    The double takes everything that is "part of them" back with them into their own dimension. Thus your double cant really leave things for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Either way, it is easily possible for someone to pick Tier 1 or Tier 2 classes for their doubles, even ones that do not rely on spells or powers. Artificer is an easy one, for example. And since you're playing a dimensional conduit anyway, you're likely allowed to use homebrew, so you might even use high-Tier homebrew classes for them.
    If you want to play an Artificer its probably better to go for a straight 20 build than peek at 15th, but yer your right it certainly gives you a lot of options. Thats what this class is all about though, options. Your always acting as a sub optimal version of the class in question but the mere fact you can become said class, even at a sub optimal level, is powerful.

    Ultimately I would expect any player using this class to select doubles with an interesting mind set of their own... Remember they are different people to the character and thus have a life of their own experiances to draw on when making their decisions. Sure you may be terrified of the Girallon but in your mage's dimension they are creatures of fun, seen only in travelling circuses as amusements to children. Maybe your swordsage is a racist or your Artificer has a fear of flying.

    Your constant switching between doubles could lead others to view you as suffering from a strange multiple personality disorder, demonic possession or something far worse.

    I think you could break this class if you went crazy with homebrew, but then I think you could probably argue that with most things. I prefer to look at it the other way round though... so now you have the ability to play your 6 favourite homebrews all at once and with a thematic link between them! Sixth sigma win!

    P.S: sorry it took me so long to write this reply and thanks for looking over the class morph, you sir are a legend.
    OMFGWTF!!

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Hm, Morph Bark could I have you reasoning behind putting the Haruspex at tier 2? It never seemed much like a tier 2 to me. Always seemed like a tier 3 with high out of combat use but less in combat use.
    Ultimately, it was Brief Glimpse that did that. Since it doesn't go into specifics how something fails, just that it fails, you can effectively use it to block/make fail any one thing, which includes things like Epic spells. Aside from that, it doesn't have anything broken by itself, though it could use scry-and-die tactics if it had appropriate party members, but that is more situational and less strong. If Brief Glimpse were to have specific ways to be causing something to fail, or only have a chance to make it do so, then the class would more likely be Tier 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I'd like to have my stuff Tiered, but it's a pain to find and link threads on the phone. If you can be bothered searching for it, I've got an Animorphs set, and Magma, Aberrant and Plant Druids - all in my Variant Druids thread. Maybe one or two others, I forget. Not my Archer, it's crap. Elsewise I'll link when I've got the internet back.
    Looking at your signature (the old one currently stored away), you don't have an Expanded Homebrewer Signature, right? Shame the search function is down, that woulda helped a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Perhaps we should do a kind of matrix instead, with two dimensions, power and versatility.
    That might certainly create a better framework of judgement for classes, but even if it works out, I won't use it that way, as it'd get too complicated to easily keep up with. Plus I'd have to go over all the classes I've already Tiered, again!

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)
    Heh, thank you for the compliment. I do think that it's pretty darn hard sometimes to maintain any consistency, or to try to remain as objective as possible. I know that at least in one case, with the Xenoalchemist, I may have been more subjective about it, thus putting it in a higher Tier than the similar Connoisseur, but I figured that that should be so because in a party of four, the Xenoalchemist would be much more powerful than the Connoisseur, since the other party members could be all grafted up as well. Undoubtedly, there are a few others as well that may not be as readily apparent to me, but this is one reason I made the High Tier 3 and Borderline Tier 3-4 tiers here, because the lines aren't always that clear. The only ones that are really clear are the 2-3 border and the 5-6 border.

    Since you mention skills (Iaijutsu Focus), I take those into account for roles, but not so much power or versatility. More class skills and skill points certainly give more versatility, which may be enough for a move from Tier 4 to Borderline, or Borderline to 3, but you've got to keep in mind that every class can take any skill at any point. The thing is just that they won't be any good at it if it isn't a class skill and they don't invest a lot in it.

    As for ToB classes: even if you were to scrutinize them pretty harshly, I don't think any of them would fall below Borderline Tier 3-4, especially in Homebrew. Well, aside from those classes specifically made to be very low Tier, such as in that Tier 5-6 thread that was around a while back that dspeyer made a lot of stuff for.

    Just as long as everyone is aware that I make no pretense to being entirely objective. Heck, I don't even want to put every class I come across into this. While I look over and comment on all the classes linked to in this thread (as much as I am able to), I end up only Tiering classes that I think have a certain measure of quality that would make me want to use them myself, or see my players use them. Then again, I've been saying that from the start, and still plenty of people have asked me to Tier/critique/comment their work, so I must be doing something right, even if I don't end up actually putting them on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by kanachi View Post
    I think you could break this class if you went crazy with homebrew, but then I think you could probably argue that with most things. I prefer to look at it the other way round though... so now you have the ability to play your 6 favourite homebrews all at once and with a thematic link between them! Sixth sigma win!
    This, I think, is definitely one of the Dimensional Conduit's big points. To people who love homebrew, it's an incredibly big plus. To DMs though, it can be a very big minus, because a player may come with several classes they aren't sure about allowing. Plus the amount of bookkeeping involved can be a headache for both of them. I don't think it'd be wise to use prepared casters in combination with the Dimensional Conduit, at any rate.

    I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys.


    EDIT: Also, if anyone feels like helping me out with a little something, there's this.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-12-21 at 06:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    This, I think, is definitely one of the Dimensional Conduit's big points. To people who love homebrew, it's an incredibly big plus. To DMs though, it can be a very big minus, because a player may come with several classes they aren't sure about allowing. Plus the amount of bookkeeping involved can be a headache for both of them. I don't think it'd be wise to use prepared casters in combination with the Dimensional Conduit, at any rate.
    I would be inclined to agree.. To be honest i think its probably more fun to try and build up some nice combos can rift off one another nicely to do some awesome things than go all out for power. Combining a bunch of skill monkeys together would be fun for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys.
    They would be X//Y by the rules.... but for your own sanity it might be worth house ruling it so they are all X//Dualists.

    put simply your a braver man than me to even think about taking this on in a Gestalt game!
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    While Morph tries to maintain a consistency, JaronK has admitted that he has allowed biases into it, such as Factotum is the only class allowed the Iaijutsu Slash, Rogue being T4 "because Factotum", and Warlock being disallowed item crafting, but Artificer is allowed it without limits (granted, Arti is that 1D)
    Um... no? I've always tried to avoid bias. Why is the Factotum the only class with Iaijutsu Focus, when the OA Samurai is also in the list (down in T5) as is the Expert? That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who has it as a class skill has it.

    And I've certainly never said the Rogue is T4 "because Factotum." The Rogue is in T4 because while their skills are generally solid, their primary method of doing anything in combat is Sneak Attack, which often doesn't work (undead, elementals, plants, oozes, stuff that's too mobile to easily flank or ambush, anything with concealment, etc). While there's ways around this, they often cost a lot of money (Truedeath Crystals require +3 weapons, and that's only for hurting Undead) or are extremely questionable (Wands of Gravestrike only work at all if your DM has the Rules Compendium, burn charges with each use, can fail, use up a hand, and so on). And all this for a damage output that really isn't that great anyway. Add on the fact that they're a close range class that is one of the most fragile classes in existence (d6 HD, only one good save, light armor, very few defensive abilities) and you get a glass cannon that's situational. Plus, their skills are often negated by magic or creature abilities... Arcane Lock completely defeats a Rogue's Open Lock, for example, while if you don't have Darkstalker many enemies completely ignore Hide and Move Silently. So, good in some areas (when they can sneak attack without being counter attacked, when their skills are appropriate to the situation) but can often be useless (when enemies could kill them in one full round attack, when they can't land their precision damage, when their skills are just plain negated, etc). They pretty much define T4.

    I have no idea why you think the Warlock is disallowed item crafting. It just doesn't factor in until a bit later for that class... remember, most games are played at lower levels. I had to bias it towards the levels in which the game is generally played. But they of course have item crafting, and of course it's factored in. Meanwhile, the Artificer gets much better item crafting starting right away, so of course it's much more valuable for them.

    I think you've got a lot of strange assumptions going on here, and I'm not sure why.

    As for the idea of making more tiers, someone certainly could... I just always worried that getting too precise would just get confusing. Besides, the point was always "what classes play well together." Yes, some T4s are all around okay while others are specialists, but they all generally play well together without stealing each other's spotlights. That was all that ever mattered to me... helping games play smoothly.

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I've shown the class to some of my players and one of them was very interested in it. He said that if he were to come play in the over-the-top Gestalt game I'm setting up, he'd play a Dimensional Conduit//Dualist. I'm just kind of wondering whether that'd mean the doubles would be Gestalt too, and if so, if they'd be X//Dualists, or X//Ys.
    I don't think they would be gestalt at all.

    [...]the Dualist's partner advances through the Dualist class at the same rate, though they never gain levels in other classes. [...]
    Unless you meant the conduit doubles, in which case... *shrug*
    Last edited by Jarian; 2012-12-21 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Um... no? I've always tried to avoid bias. Why is the Factotum the only class with Iaijutsu Focus, when the OA Samurai is also in the list (down in T5) as is the Expert? That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who has it as a class skill has it.

    As for the idea of making more tiers, someone certainly could... I just always worried that getting too precise would just get confusing. Besides, the point was always "what classes play well together." Yes, some T4s are all around okay while others are specialists, but they all generally play well together without stealing each other's spotlights. That was all that ever mattered to me... helping games play smoothly.

    JaronK
    1: While the Factotum is considered to have it, its also the only class who can have Iaijutsu Focus which will have more to do then Barbershop the first guy they can get to, using an inspiration point to cast celerity, which neither OA Samurai or Expert can do. the argument is that a 1/encounter ability is more useful then an ability which, with access to the 2 books most obsessed with fixing previously printed classes, can have every problem with it removed (although half of that problem is not solvable in class).

    2: The arguments are based on the commentary you used on classes. The entirety of the rogue reasoning drips "Because Factotum". I also acknowledge that the only thing Artificer has is to make magic items to use, and so has to be considered allowed to do that.
    3: And you made it read more like a comparison of versatility and power.

    @ Morph: The reason i said that is because you dont spend 18 hours digging through all the material that a class might interact with to judge its power.

    Also, a 2-axis system wouldnt take long to redo (barring classes that use new spell lists), at least in theory, as it would be inspecting classes in relation to how many different encounters they can participate in, and how good they are in combat.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-21 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    1: While the Factotum is considered to have it, its also the only class who can have Iaijutsu Focus which will have more to do then Barbershop the first guy they can get to, using an inspiration point to cast celerity, which neither OA Samurai or Expert can do. the argument is that a 1/encounter ability is more useful then an ability which, with access to the 2 books most obsessed with fixing previously printed classes, can have every problem with it removed (although half of that problem is not solvable in class).
    So, how is it bias to say that the Factotum can do it better because it has abilities that let it do it better (usually you just cast Grease, not Celerity, but whatever)? I mean, all three classes can do it, but one's higher ranked in part because it does that much better (in addition to doing lots of other stuff, though do note that Experts and OA Samurai could use a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind to use Sapphire Nightmare Blade and get a second Iaijutsu attack off.).

    2: The arguments are based on the commentary you used on classes. The entirety of the rogue reasoning drips "Because Factotum". I also acknowledge that the only thing Artificer has is to make magic items to use, and so has to be considered allowed to do that.
    I'm curious, where have I said that? I mean, I've showed comparisons between the two to illustrate the difference between T3 and T4, but I'm curious to know how I implied that the Rogue was in any way placed "Because Factotutm."

    3: And you made it read more like a comparison of versatility and power.
    Versatility and power are the things that decide who plays together well. If one person is playing "I'm a god who does what I want on a whim" and the other is playing "I hit things with my sword very well" it's not the same game, so they play together poorly. If one is "I hit things with my sword very well" and the other is "I'm versatile enough to handle the other stuff" they play together alright. In the end, it's all subservient to the idea that "Players want to be able to play together, DMs want characters that fit in their campaign ideas." Isn't that what's important?

    JaronK

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    So, how is it bias to say that the Factotum can do it better because it has abilities that let it do it better (usually you just cast Grease, not Celerity, but whatever)? I mean, all three classes can do it, but one's higher ranked in part because it does that much better (in addition to doing lots of other stuff, though do note that Experts and OA Samurai could use a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind to use Sapphire Nightmare Blade and get a second Iaijutsu attack off.).

    I'm curious, where have I said that? I mean, I've showed comparisons between the two to illustrate the difference between T3 and T4, but I'm curious to know how I implied that the Rogue was in any way placed "Because Factotutm."

    Versatility and power are the things that decide who plays together well. If one person is playing "I'm a god who does what I want on a whim" and the other is playing "I hit things with my sword very well" it's not the same game, so they play together poorly. If one is "I hit things with my sword very well" and the other is "I'm versatile enough to handle the other stuff" they play together alright. In the end, it's all subservient to the idea that "Players want to be able to play together, DMs want characters that fit in their campaign ideas." Isn't that what's important?

    JaronK
    1: Everything a Factotum has is limited, a Rogue, on the other hand, can do nearly everything they need to be able to do without limit, especially with later material that allows them to take the urban equivalent of HiPS (not wilderness rogue, which sucks), and to bypass critical immunity.

    2: your personal argument for why Rogue is not T3 with factotum is simply that Factotum is the only class which actually is between T2+3, that isnt an argument. They also cant steal Penetrating strike either, so they can never redeem sneak attack's most significant problem.
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