Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

[Milo v3]

Ahh. Forgive me, I missed the "knows" in there. Yes, that does make it better, considering there is plenty of lead-up to that. One suggestion though: perhaps you should put in the table how manieth the Fighting Tradition it is you gain at a certain level, so you can easily see how many you can have from that level onwards.

But yes, it's one of the better ones and has some combat versatility thanks to Fighting Tradition. It still has very little outside of combat though.

Added a table which shows how many traditions you know at each level.

[T.G. Oskar]

Morph, since you're right now handling all the multitude of Fighter fixes, does that mean you'll do the same to another favored target of aspiring 'brewers (that being the Monk)? I distinctly recall a mild compromise to tackle the Retooled Monk v2.0, and doing it in the scope of all other Monk fixes would be interesting. It might also imply the Paladin will also see a light, being the third most commonly fixed class.

[Eldan]

Morph should do wizard fixes next. Maybe start on page one of this thread and do the one someone posted there. *hint hint, wink wink*

[Threadnaught]

Ozodrin (By Owrtho)
Evolutionist (By Draken)
Gramarie (By Kellus)

My 3 favorites, none of them listed.

Draken has just presented the Evolutionist for Tiering. I do wonder how an Ozodrin would do, wondered for a while.

[Amechra]

You know, you can review my Fighter fix...

I didn't go any of the ordinary paths, I don't think...

[toapat]

I beat the trend of doing fighter fixes, and have had mine for a while.

I did a different take on the problem.

[Morph Bark]

Christmas has arrived, so the next bits on Fighter Fixes will have to wait a while.

Morph, since you're right now handling all the multitude of Fighter fixes, does that mean you'll do the same to another favored target of aspiring 'brewers (that being the Monk)?

I very well might, and at least will consider it. However, while I try to be objective in the Tiering of a class, I'm very much subjective in picking what to Tier. Generally, Fixes aren't really my thing (hence why there haven't been that many Tiered yet, despite there being so many), largely because it's much of the same. Considering Monks, I'll probably tackle them all together someday (though I will first have to gone through some more martial arts training, but I've got that planned for 2013 anyway!). Likely though, it won't be so soon.

I've sorta-kinda already decided on the next two or three special features, so those will be first in line. At least one of them is a prominent homebrewer, and another is a very big and controversial project. Stay tuned!

In the meantime, a merry Christmas* to all!

*And if you don't celebrate Christmas, may your days be merry anyway!

[nonsi]

Then we have another can-cover-other-classes-too-somewhat Fighter Fix, as awkwardly presented by nonsi.

Let’s examine the “awkwardly presented” issue.

To be honest, I thought it'd be bigger. Then when I read through it, it took me as long as the others due to the fact that most of the class abilities themselves don't say when you get them, so you have to check with the table again.

Ok, noted to add level association inside all descriptions.

Warcraft is essentially "take a class feature from a non-Fighter fighting class, or get another bonus feat". It's basically another kind of quick-and-dirty fix, the former which is lazy and unoriginal, the latter which is both those and just doesn't work.

What do you mean by “former” and “latter”?
My reading comprehension is considered quite decent, but I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
Also, “quick-and-dirty” is the last thing you could say about Warcraft. I put a lot of thought about appropriate levels and desired modifications. whatever's not mentioned is to be taken from the official descriptions. that's not laziness - that's avoiding overtaxing the eyes with already known details.
As for “unoriginal” – hey, if it’s working, why not use it?

Combat Focus is one of the better things about this Fix, though fluffwise it seems like this is similar to rage, in a way, which this Fix can also get. Seems weird to see that in combo.

In concept, Combat Focus is not even remotely tied to Rage.
It does not involve anger or inner conviction.
On the contrary. It involves coolheadedness, battlefield awareness and combat wisdom.
It has two aspects: one of vigilance, the other of superior offense.
While the two are not mutually exclusive, they're not tied either.

Warrior Talent has a few nice ones, but it's nothing major.

No way you read this one correct if that’s your conclusion.

Overall, it's... it's kind of a Fighter Fix, I guess? I mean, while nonsi attempted to stick to the things mentioned in D&D Next list of "things a Fighter should be", that list is incredibly vague and more fluffy than crunchy, not being of real substance.

That list conveys a certain feel that I believe I’ve managed to convey,

He did provide a link to a Fighter Handbook that goes into ways to optimize a Fighter through their feats, but using that with this Fix won't really make this go anything beyond the standard Fighter by much.

Ok… so as to not hog this thread, please take this to my Warrior thread and show me how my proposed class fails in any way to address the Fighter’s issues (break it down to level-by-level if you feel like it)

In the thread nonsi appears to claim Combat Focus should raise the Fix to Tier 3, but the things that really do that it gets very late in its level progression, while they would be overpowered if gained earlier.

1. … Combat Focus along with all other features (Warcraft, feats, talents, skills…).
2. Regarding the bolded text – I’m always open to to explanations and suggestions. By all means.

[jiriku]

I've been Tiered! This is a nice Christmas present.

I do have some other classes to present. If you're pressed for time and need to prioritize, I'd recommend the following as the most interesting and/or useful:

• Magus of Blades (new class)
• Soulcrafter (soulknife fix)
• Summoner (new class or sorcerer/wizard fix)
• Monk Remix (monk fix)
• Knight-Paladin (knight fix, paladin fix)

[Milo v3]

My fix wasn't really tiered, all you did was mention it as an example for Fighter fixes with archetypes.

[Vaynor]

Hey, this is a cool thread! Would you mind tiering these two classes I made? It'd be much appreciated.

Cerebral Stalker
Shifter

[Morph Bark]

So, clearly I haven't been up to business in this thread this year so far yet, since Christmas even actually, and that is because through the holiday and after it I've gotten occupied with a good few other things that require my attention, so I won't be up to it to do the rest of the big Fighter Fix thing anytime soon. I was going to do a handful of Minmaxboards' fixes, then some of the King of Fighter Fixes', then maybe some I missed, then follow up with a conclusion maybe, though that last bit would come too close to attempting a Fix myself and that's entirely not my thing.

Considering I'm currently working on artifacts for my campaign setting here and here, my first thought was "let's just throw some artifacts at those Fighters and let them fix themselves with those", but obviously that wouldn't work.

In the meantime, you can check out this small list of Fighter Fixes I'd forgotten, though there are many, many more Fighter Fixes out there, and they just... they're just too numerous! I can't list them all or go in depth about them all!

Fax
ErrantX
Chambers
Realms of Chaos
Amechra

At any rate, I'll be continuing on with Tiering at it's previous, easy pace and will tackle some of the other requests that may have popped up here or there. Onwards!

Ok… so as to not hog this thread, please take this to my Warrior thread and show me how my proposed class fails in any way to address the Fighter’s issues (break it down to level-by-level if you feel like it)

I could attempt to address these points if it wouldn't be thread necromancy, so that'd have to be fixed the usual way.

[Lord_Gareth]

So Morph, I thought I'd let you know - I finally started on Harrowed 5.0.

You folks will get a link the moment it's done.

[Serpentine]

The Druids and the Animorph*


*Aberrant is in post #44, Animorph is in #2

Serpentine, were any changes made to the Animorph when you added it to that thread, or is the animorph's standalone thread still current?

I'm pretty sure the stuff in the standalone thread is all up to date.
Sorry about that, guys. The Animorph stuff, which I expect to be put under "variant" because it depends so much on what morph options are available or sought out.
Magma and Plant Druids, Aberrant Druid.

[Morph Bark]

I've been thinking of expanding the subsystems bit with lists of PrCs made for specific subsystems. Not including those made for spellcasters (aside from homebrew systems, such as spellshaping) and psionics, but including ToB, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming, and of course, primarily, homebrew subsystems. What do you guys think?

Of course, considering how PrCs are much more common, and considering they're meant to only be a small part of this, I wouldn't be so much Tiering them as judging general quality (if belonging to official subsystems) or simply including them on the list if made for a homebrew subsystem or homebrew class (I know the Ozodrin has tons of them, and yes, I'm gonna Tier it).

[Lix Lorn]

Ozodrin ... yes, I'm gonna Tier it).

You realise no-one cares about the rest of that post now, right?

More seriously, that sounds like it makes sense to me!

[DracoDei]

I've been thinking of expanding the subsystems bit with lists of PrCs made for specific subsystems. Not including those made for spellcasters (aside from homebrew systems, such as spellshaping) and psionics, but including ToB, incarnum, binding, shadowcasting and truenaming, and of course, primarily, homebrew subsystems. What do you guys think?

As long as you don';t spread yourself too thin.

[Morph Bark]

You realise no-one cares about the rest of that post now, right?

More seriously, that sounds like it makes sense to me!

I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.

Mostly I'm afraid to do ToB PrCs, as there are so. Darn. Many.

(Hence the restating of quality control.)

As long as you don';t spread yourself too thin.

You can't spread too thin that which is of infinite thickness!

...wait.


Also added PairO'Dice Lost's Divine Champion to Tier 3.

[Jormengand]

Hmm... had an idea for a class based on a cross between a space marine dreadnaught and a cyborg, and thinking of giving him lots of abilities which work in a similar manner to spells, and represent the systems in the machine. The trouble is, if they're (Ex) it could easily make the class a Tier -1 whenever there's an antimagic field handy, ready to fight that beholder mage without breaking a sweat. If they're (Su), it won't be able to cope with wizards and psychic warriors, or even sorcerers or inquisitors.

Suggestions?

[sirpercival]

Hey Morph, wanna tier the Ætherforge? I'm guessing mid-high tier 3, or possibly tier 2 depending on what you consider "game-breaking"

[Lix Lorn]

I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.

I belieeeeve there's a compilation post somewhere. I think he links it in one of the (many) OPs.

[Vauron]

I'm hoping some people at least will link me to those Ozodrin PrCs, because they're quite spread out from what I remember.

Ask, and ye shall recieve.

[Morph Bark]

Suggestions?

None that come to mind right now, sadly.

Hey Morph, wanna tier the Ætherforge? I'm guessing mid-high tier 3, or possibly tier 2 depending on what you consider "game-breaking"

I'll give it a shot. Might be a little while though, as this weekend I'll be occupied.

I belieeeeve there's a compilation post somewhere. I think he links it in one of the (many) OPs.

Ask, and ye shall recieve.

Why look at that! Thank you!

[lunar2]

Morph, you think you could take a look at my sage?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266930

[Korney]

I know you are already tired of Fighter Fixes, but I tried to follow your advices and made changes to it, I would like your opinion again, and if anyone can give me better wording I would appreciate it. English is not my main language and I'm not good at it.

By definition adding more stuff to the Fighter makes it better than a normal Fighter, but it does not necessarily up its Tier (which I look for in Fixes, or lowering of its Tier if the official class equivalent's Tier is 1 or 2). I like Stand Strong, but Keep Fighting sounds detrimental, since it kicks in while you may not even be dead yet (between -1 and -9) or you might lose a magic item that is more expensive than the cost to resurrect you.

Shield Ally: do you mean no save, rather than no salvation? No salvation is pretty harsh!

Taunt: kind of vague and uses different rules from the normal Intimidate rules.

Hold the Position: is the +5 to AC instead of, or in addition to to the normal bonus from fighting defensively?

Overall, I don't think it goes up a Tier.* The first seven levels have nothing that really improves the Fighter's abilities other than straight numbers (and while Experienced Fighter does help and is good, straight numbers alone don't do it, and it's very dependant on feat choice). The last ten levels give some options that could be nifty, but need some more working out and better wording. Giving some abilities like those at earlier levels (but lesser versions of the same abilities, or move those abilities to earlier levels and give them upgrades you can choose) would certainly help.

*This is presuming the Fighter to be Tier 4-5. A Fighter can be Tier 4 with the right feat choice, but so can your Fighter for the same reasons. If you pick feats that make a Fighter character Tier 5, the same choices won't improve him to Tier 4 with the abilities you give the class. The ideas you have are good, but they need more working out and improvement. Expand on them a little more to be less basic and you're off in a good direction.

Here is it again. Korney's Fighter Fix.

IMPORTANT: Don't haste to do this, I know I'm selfish for asking you to lose your time at this. If you don't feel like it, just say so. I will understand it.


Also, I have an idea for a homebrew that goes arround awakening latent golem powers and/or crafting and improving a golem armor. Something arround Dragon Disciples but with Incarnated Construct blood.
You guys are the ones that most homebrew have seen. Is there anything like this already? I can only find a class about a psychic armor and one about making yourself a warforged.

[sengmeng]

I've been tiered! And I have the honor of creating the first tier 6! With the Gamechanger tag no less.

[nonsi]

I could attempt to address these points if it wouldn't be thread necromancy, so that'd have to be fixed the usual way.

No longer an issue.
The thread has been revived by the OP (yours truly).

[Gnomes2169]

Hmmm... so since this thread has been revived, can I throw one of my classes in here to be tiered?

[Jormengand]

If this could be tiered?

[Gnomes2169]

I'm just guessing that tiering is now available...