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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I am also in favor of such a listing.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?

    Iunno.

    In other news, I agree with a separate list for printed class fixes.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2012-06-22 at 05:19 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Post Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I'd really love to see what you think of my chosen warrior, in my sig, which is based on Link from Zelda.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    A quick last post before I am gone for the weekend. I'll be back to Tiering on Wednesday after my last exam, so stay tuned for some changes and additions to the system, more classes and more Tiering!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    I was looking over the Soulweaver again, and I'm not sure where its tier 2 ranking comes from. It has powerful summons, yeah, but sheer power does not a tier 2 make. It doesn't have access to much (if any) of the tier 1 tricks, which by default should put it into tier 3, I would think? Maybe with a note as to why you think it's tier 2 potentially?
    It was actually an honest derp. I meant to put it in High Tier 3, though it could maybe have been Tier 2 if its undead lasted longer. Minionmancy is very versatile and very powerful, making the action economy its little female dog. The Soulweaver isn't too strong with his Horde though, due to its limitations (requiring swift actions to keep up, making it limited to one day unless the Soulweaver is undead or a warforged; with on the other hand the undead not being all that game-breaking by far).


    If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!

    For now, I shall bid you all adieu.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!
    Ninja (Circle of Life)
    Ninja (T. G. Oskar)
    Scoundrel (Circle of Life, Rogue/Swashbuckler 'fix'?)
    Warlock (T. G. Oskar)

    Then there's Oskar's massive Paladin overhaul thread, but I'm pretty sure that's popular enough that 99% of gitp knows about it already.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    A quick last post before I am gone for the weekend. I'll be back to Tiering on Wednesday after my last exam
    You probably won't read this, but here's wishing you good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    If more people are in favour of the seperate Tiering for Fix Classes, feel free to start bringing in some, I'll get to them in time!
    Here's some of Jiriku's stuff:

    Monk
    Daring Outlaw
    Fighter
    Healer
    Knight Paladin
    Soulcrafter (soulknife)
    Swift Hunter

    Interestingly, the Trissociate was also formulated in part as a base class fix. With the idea being that if you wanted a better Dragon Shaman, you would stack together, half-dragon, Draconic auras, and whatever else fit the character flavor (e.g. Sublime Maneuvers, Sorcerer spells, or gem dragon Psionics) to come up with something half-way competent.
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2012-06-22 at 12:26 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Hiya Morph,

    Could I get your thoughts on my Trueforge class which is currently in the Base Class Challenge?

    I would be interested what you think of it and where you believe it comes in terms of tiering.

    Thanks! :)
    OMFGWTF!!

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Post Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Could you explain the tier 4 for the chosen warrior? I'm curious, since a lot of people agreed it was low tier 3.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I've been waiting for something like this!

    Could you take a look at my Fighter (not really done, but still):

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242689

    and the Harbinger, a sort of warrior diviner:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244491

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    Then there's Oskar's massive Paladin overhaul thread, but I'm pretty sure that's popular enough that 99% of gitp knows about it already.
    You'd be surprised. Quite a lot of people I've talked to only visit one or two parts of the forums and are completely unaware of any homebrewing that goes on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    You probably won't read this, but here's wishing you good luck.
    Heh, sadly it appears luck was far from my side the past week. I'll have to not buy new clothes and ration my food for the coming year if I want to finish college.

    Quote Originally Posted by kanachi View Post
    Hiya Morph,

    Could I get your thoughts on my Trueforge class which is currently in the Base Class Challenge?

    I would be interested what you think of it and where you believe it comes in terms of tiering.

    Thanks! :)
    Since that BCC is still in progress, I will wait until after it has concluded with Tiering it. Suffice to say that I will get to it in due time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilpich View Post
    Could you explain the tier 4 for the chosen warrior? I'm curious, since a lot of people agreed it was low tier 3.
    I'll get back to you on that, poke me later here if I forget. I just thought I'd reply to let you know I didn't forget you either.

    Do you think it would be bad if it is Tier 4 though?


    EDIT: I've added Fix Class Tiers in the fourth post with a different kind of Tagging, as well as something on subsystems and such in the third post. What do you all think of the Tagging here? I haven't added Role Tags yet, but those might not even be necessary, since they prettymuch have the same role as the official classes anyway.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-06-27 at 05:59 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well

    Oh, two things:
    - Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
    - What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Hey, just popping in to say nice work and I hope it turns out well

    Oh, two things:
    - Could you add the name of the creators on the classes you have tiered already?
    - What the sit rep on my brews? I'm in no hurry but I'm always curious
    Thanks, I can say I definitely share those hopes.

    Is that necessary? I don't really feel like doing that for the original classes, as the balance for those tends to be all over the place, even for a single creator's work. When it comes to re-works/tools/vamps/makings/doings, the creator generally has much more of a solid aim, at least those homebrewers who have multiple Fix classes to their name.

    And what's a sit rep? Sounds like something you'd do in the gym.


    Anyhoo, I've added the following classes:

    High Tier 3: Blade Scholar, Eternal Royal, Scholar. Currently considering moving one or more of these to Tier 2.
    Tier 3: Battle Psychic, Soul Disciple, Sublime Matador, Sublime Archer, Warlord.
    Tier 4: Gentle Fist Adept and moved the Limit Freak and Limit Monk here from Borderline Tier 3-4.
    Tier 5: Fanatic.

    The Tome of Battle homebrew discipline listing has been expanded somewhat as well. I am currently thinking I should change the way I tag it though. Instead of what I have now, I'm thinking of changing it to this:
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    Discipline Name
    Creator: Name. Tier: Tier 2-3-4. Skill: Skill. Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy. Theme: Theme or themes. Comments:


    Alternatively:

    Discipline Name
    Creator: Name.
    Tier: Tier 2-3-4.
    Skill: Skill.
    Weapons: Cutty, pokey and crushy.
    Theme: Theme or themes.
    Comments:


    How does that look?


    Disciplines still to go:
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    Before you ask, no, your discipline is not in this list. :P Go ahead and tell me about it.

    MESSY LINK TIME
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137024
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140347
    http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=112.0
    http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4591.0
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133462
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130232
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48255
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...97#post7780197
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143684
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...28#post8336928
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150256
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826
    http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Mrityulok_(3.5e_Location)
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238217
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=348
    http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/schools
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143785
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137838
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=26
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=156540&page=2
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...10#post8504410
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110561
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186378
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...15&postcount=5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45205
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135459
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102869
    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...e_PEACH_please
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134667
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134459
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-06-28 at 08:24 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    And what's a sit rep? Sounds like something you'd do in the gym.
    Its short for Situation Report.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaeron View Post
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Last edited by Jarian; 2012-06-28 at 09:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Your discipline list is missing Sublime Tapestry. It's always nice to see a compilation of, well, everything around. Thanks for doing this.

    I have a few classes of my own, and I'd also like to mention Sirpercival's ritual classes.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Just one Tier request

    The Wordsmith

    Yes, it is based on one of the most fun games ever
    I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    I'm getting a hunch you like Circle of Life's work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garryl View Post
    Your discipline list is missing Sublime Tapestry. It's always nice to see a compilation of, well, everything around. Thanks for doing this.

    I have a few classes of my own, and I'd also like to mention Sirpercival's ritual classes.
    The first link made me have a moment of "yo dawg, we heard you like maneuvers, so we put some maneuvers in your maneuvers, so you can initiate while you initiate".

    Also, I'd like to note that this won't be a compilation of everything around. I don't plan on including things that are unplayable, too incomplete, badly done or just very boring.

    I like the new spells you made for your Medic, by the way. Very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    I'll just push this forward again, if enough time has passed for you.
    Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Indeed it has. Plus I see you've gotten plenty of comments on it too, so kudos! It seems to me like it would fall into potentially Tier 2 pre-level 10, depending on how creative the players would be with their Words, otherwise being Tier 3, lower even if they aren't imaginative at all. Greater Creatures is dangerous though, putting it into Tier 2 for sure for the same reasons as why a Truenamer would be Tier 2 (or above, I'm not sure if Gate alone would put it at Tier 1). At level 20 he gets access to Solars, which have exactly 22 HD. This is why you need to beware with HD limits. CR may not always be an appropriate standard (in case of dragons and 3.0 monsters mostly), but its better than HD in most cases. Otherwise, it's wiser to stick to the same amount of HD or even 2 lower, especially since Outsiders often have CR greater than their HD.
    I think I might stick a Cap on it in that case. The balancing piece in my mind is that you have no control over such creatures from Greater Creatures. As such, summoning a Solar does very little good unless you're fighting a Demon. Even then, its under the DM's control and the best use is summoning something as a meatshield.Thanks for the comments, and I agree with your Tiering. It doesn't have the raw power of a wizard or pure spellcaster, but it does have ways of being effective.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I'm getting a hunch you like Circle of Life's work.
    Mostly I just have a lot of his stuff bookmarked, and don't for others. It's easier to click a bookmark and C/P than it is to trawl the entire homebrew subforum looking for something you missed.

    While we're on the subject of ToB though, Blademaster.
    Last edited by Jarian; 2012-06-29 at 11:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    If I may, I would like to request another look at the Mage Slayer. It has recieved a reworking of it's capstone, revamp of several abilities, and several other nifty mage hunting abilities. It also recieved some more versatility by expanding what feats it's allowed to choose for bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Well, if you are doing disciplines, I would like to request a tiering of Falling Anvil (in my NOT extended signature, as well as my extended signature). Everybody kept trying to tell me that balance wasn't as important for a humorous homebrew, but that line of argument has never held any water with me. And, yes, I know the cap-stone doesn't specify the mechanical effects of being buried alive X inches deep in various types of materials.

    EDIT: The alternate improved format (so the second one in the spoiler), is the one I like the best. It also looks like you aren't really saying WHY things get or don't get the stamp of approval...

    Also, Black Rain and Breath of Fire are worth a look simply because they are very specific, so their inclusion or exclusion really can influence the flavor of the campaign since there isn't a good alternative to replace them with. Note that none of the Breath of Fire maneuvers having prerequisites was completely intentional on the author's part.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-06-29 at 09:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Just wanted to chime in and say I think you're awesome for doing this.

    Also feel free to do anything in my extended sig. It shouldn't include anything I've actually disowned.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Could I request you tiering the two complete base classes in my Sig? The Runner and Ascetic. The Runescar is on hold for now but is still being worked on, so i may request that one later on.

    EDIT: I honestly don't know what tier they would be, but they're both combat classes so likely no higher than low three or high four
    Last edited by EdroGrimshell; 2012-06-30 at 09:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Shameless self-promotion, go!

    I doubt you'll include it without it having any feedback, but I'm awfully fond of it all the same.
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Didn't see it in there so I figured I'd ask for my own piece of mind, but could you possibly review the Xenoalchemist? A really cool system, not super broken either. I'd personally say mid-tier 3, but there's a reason you're the one doing this.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Well, though I would have liked to get more input on my class before Tiering it, I don't see that happening. Anyways, could you Tier my Chorister class, conveniently located in my signature.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I have Tiered the Blademaster and Chorister, since I've seen those before and read them through entirely back then, so I was already familiar with them. I've currently put an Incomplete Tag on the Chorister because it felt incomplete before to me and you yourself said in the thread you were thinking of making more abilities for the class. Plus, the later levels feel rather dead, levels 13 and 16 truly being so. Also, I just noticed that some abilities aren't limited in range, only to whoever can "see or hear you". This means that, hypothetically, they could pick up a microphone or get a news camera and bestow their Hymnal bonuses on everyone in the entire world. Might be a good idea to limit that to less, like the Bard's 60 ft radius. I've put it under Tier 3 because its Hymns are powerful, come in decent variety and a great aid to allies, while the other abilities are good too. It's spellcasting is a bit sub-par, but that is okay and entirely intended (otherwise you would've gone higher than 6th-level).

    Tiering may go slow for a while, by the way. While GitP currently sometimes loads alright for me, a lot of the time it also takes a long time to load pages or I get errors and need to reload it. This is being worked on as we type, but I don't know when this change will be complete. It might already be complete for me for all I know, but I will find out about that in the next 24 hours in case that is so. It might not be, hence why I thought I'd just mention it.

    Anyway, thanks for the continued support, praise, commentary and everything. I'm looking forward to the continuation of such and Tiering more and more classes.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Still patiently awaiting Harrow'd and Malefactor tiers.


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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I had actually been waiting to Tier the Harrowed until you had changed it, since you said you were working on that earlier. I've actually received flack from people for not Tiering some classes before others!

    Either way, it seems I can use GitP prettymuch normally again, so allow me to show off my Son of Man, my entry into the 12th installment of the Base Class Challenge along with some other nice entries. You can vote for it and others here.


    In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:

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    While GitP wasn't working as it should be for me, I decided to go to other sites with homebrew on them to Tier classes from there. I had already visited the Minmax boards and Tiered some classes from the WotC forums, even taken a stroll to glance over DragoonWraith's Swordmage on the Competitor forums. This time though? This time I entered the belly of the beast. This time I entered dandwiki.

    Having been there before, I had some small idea of what awaited me. Having heard tons of opinions of others on the place, I should have been rebuffed, but I figured that even in there in that dark place there were classes waiting to be Tiered. I searched through the lists of finished classes, looked over the ratings they had received and decided then and there that I would look through as many as I could just this once.

    What I found mostly confirmed my fears.

    There were classes that were rated incredibly highly, some even receiving a perfect, which were incredibly crappy. They were largely uninteresting in either fluff or mechanics and mostly both, generic and with balance points all over the place. The greatest amount of classes I found seemed to be aimed at Tier 5, actually aimed at it, for their discussion pages showed their creators being happy with the results and people praising their balance. Other classes casually received all of the features of a cleric, wizard or sorcerer and more without a second though and were likewise praised, with occassionally a single voice crying out "this is too much!" and drowning in the masses.

    In the end, I went, I saw, I Tiered. These are the ones out of the whole pile that seem like they might at least have something good going for them.
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    Autoplate Pilot (not sure where to put this; it’s been used once in a campaign of mine, but that eventually went on an acid trip, so the class wasn’t recognizable anymore)
    Barkeeper (Tier 5)
    Battle Shinigami (Tier 4-5?)
    Deviant (Tier 2)
    Jester (Tier 4, low-ish, can be strangely tanky)
    Gate Knight (it looks fair, but it heavily depends on its sacrifices, which I haven’t fully read yet)
    Hakurei Shrine Maiden (Tier 2)
    Hexagunner (Tier 4-5, this class is rated 20 by several people on its discussion page, but until it gets some of its later ally-buffing abilities it is very weak, this is mainly because Steady Aim is its main feature and requires a round of prep time, which nerfs itself incredibly)
    Kido Shinigami (Tier 4)
    Magical Girl (tough one, very blasty though, so probably like the Warmage)
    Mechanist (Tier 4, borderline 3 maybe)
    Mortician (hard to Tier, mostly Tier 5, but it has minionmancy 3 levels before Leadership happens, it’s like a lesser necromancer except it gets Animate Dead incredibly early)
    Paladin, Kantian (High Tier 3, one of the best classes on the site, was used in one of my campaigns before)
    Red Mage (pretty nicely put together, I’d put it at Tier 4; doublecast is hella strong, but otherwise it’s like a lesser warmage, so if not for doublecast and the special abilities, it would’ve been Tier 5)
    Sandbender (dunno, haven’t read all its techniques yet, but it should be noted it gets 30 techniques at level 20 and only has 31 possible ones to choose, so most of them will end up a lot the same)
    Sandbinder (Tier 4 low in normal conditions, Tier 6 in sandless areas, depends heavily on if there’s a distinction made between sand and dirt)
    Shinigami (Tier 4-5?, could be the same creator as the Battle Shinigami due to tons of similarities in mechanics, but I don’t know which one is his latest version, as the Battle Shinigami is newer, but the Shinigami has been revised more recently it seems, found the creators page, the Shinigami is meant to be replaced by the Battle Shinigami and Kido Shinigami)
    Thief-Acrobat (Tier 4, some nifty abilities, but nothing really special)
    Threat (Tier 4-5?, kinda reminds me of the barbarian, but most abilities are actually nicer, though the barbarian can get pounce, rage variants and other ACFs that make it better)
    Time Bender (Tier 2 with the fetch, I’d say, but it’s way too easy to screw over, making it unplayable)
    Weeper (Tier 4)


    But really, this is so very little when you consider that to get to these I had to dig through hundreds of classes, most of them failed attempts in creating something inspired by an awesome source or ‘fixing’ or creating a variant of an official class, many others being actually successful attempts… at creating something underpowered or overpowered. It was like I was standing on a giant compost heap with my trusty shovel, looking for gemstones and finding just a handful of semi-precious stones. ;_;
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-07-06 at 05:37 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site:
    Thanks for posting this, it was an interesting read!

    I think this is the advantage of the relatively small homebrew community here on the playground. Generally speaking the more exposure a community has to certain things the more those within it become accustomed to the same unspoken sense of balance, structure and methods.

    In general everyones first base class creations are over or under powered (I know mine was). In many cases they are crafted by players seeking to have their class approved by their DM and are sometimes craft without any experience of DMing themselves or without a full understanding of the wider implications their builds may have upon the system as a whole. Also some who are DMs craft things which work perfectly within their own campaign but do not necessarily stand as mechanically balanced or sound in regard to the wider system.

    A place like dnd wiki is so highly populated that a lot more people fall into these categories (or others that are similar) and thus the group think of the community slowly becomes more and more diluted towards that way of working.

    The same could be said of any community of course, even ours. It could be argued that our builds here are only balanced against each other and our group think perceptions of the wider system.

    I just happen to believe that the group think here is more sound.
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