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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.
    Last edited by Waker; 2012-07-04 at 09:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.
    If you take one or two classes out of one forum and place them in to another you may get scewed results. It would probably be easier to invite people from other forums to come and view a thread like this and review the classes therein enmass.

    I've got in my head an idea of a "day of homebrew from [insert forum here]" where that person reviews all the homebrew on the first page of that forum and gives their thoughts as to the overall quality. It would make for an intresting cross forum review (and potential flash point).
    OMFGWTF!!

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.
    I don't think the community on GiantItp is that unified to have that kind of consensus. We're actually a pretty diverse bunch of brewers, with some varied interests and goals. For example, the activity i see on these boards tends to revolve around these concepts (in order of frequency):

    1) Fixes (but this is true almost everywhere).

    2) Themed classes -- as in, i want to make a Belmont from Castlevania, so I am going to make that a class. This is hugely popular on the boards, but is also hugely diverse. You have folks making classes based on videogames, manga, fiction, and even literature.

    3) Hybrids -- classes that mix two or more classes to create a desired effect. Things like an auto tashalatora monk are included here, but may also be considered fixes.

    4) Concept Classes -- classes that are mostly unique and display completely new features rather than agglomerating class features from previous classes. These classes may end up being very similar to hybrids or existing classes in play style, but use new class features to create that style.

    5) Content Development -- a few folks are working on complete revisions that stretch and skew the standard d20 system for 3.5. These guys are more interested in new mechanics, and then create new classes to match these mechanics.
    This sort of work begins in the fixes category, but ends up here when the brewer gets so darn frustrated with the existing system that she starts tearing pages out of the book and scribbling out solutions while cackling madly.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I am not of the opinion that we are a unified whole either. My comment was mostly in response to kanachi's

    The same could be said of any community of course, even ours. It could be argued that our builds here are only balanced against each other and our group think perceptions of the wider system.
    Getting the opinions from other communities is simplified with Morph's consolidating the various homebrew classes. Posting a link or inviting other people is all that is required.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    I am not of the opinion that we are a unified whole either. My comment was mostly in response to kanachi's
    Nore am I, I was just playing devilís advocate within my own post.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    In the meantime, allow me to tell you all a story of my exploits away from GitP while I was having troubles with the site...
    If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkisflux View Post
    If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).
    Wholeheartedly agree with the idea. I rarely do promotion (whether its my stuff or that of others), but I feel it's important in this case as the regulations in the good Wiki are tighter than on the other one.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Waker View Post
    It is possible that our own homebrew is acceptable to us simply because the community has a certain ideal for what is balanced, even if it might be biased. If we wanted to be certain, we could see about spreading the classes to other sites like Brilliant Gameologists or even DanDwiki and see what the general consensus is.
    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    I don't think the community on GiantItp is that unified to have that kind of consensus. We're actually a pretty diverse bunch of brewers, with some varied interests and goals. For example, the activity i see on these boards tends to revolve around these concepts (in order of frequency):

    *snip*
    I kinda have to agree with Waker here. While we have a diverse bunch of brewers, that doesn't have to mean we don't share similar ideas on what is balanced. Sure, we often disagree on some details, but that leads to changes, conflict, variety, an evolution of homebrew if you will, with the best part being that the atmosphere here isn't a hostile one, even if the critique may sometimes sound harsh, especially if your balance point seems to be way off while you're thinking it's not, but it's not as bad as in some places and nearly always meant well for constructive criticism. I remember that the gleemax forums and some other places, including dandwiki, weren't all that friendly sometimes.

    Dandwiki's intended balance point seems to be Tier 4, or wants to be, but often undershoots it and becomes Tier 5, especially with how many classes have a lot of dead levels. Other classes instead end up as Tier 1s and some Tier 2s due to emulating the wizard or cleric in some way, but with different (read: actual) class features. One of Dandwiki's users' common mistakes is that it seems they largely think the official classes are all balanced to one another, while they aren't (even if the original intention might have been to make them balanced that way).

    In fact, in my searches all across Dandwiki, I never found even ONE Tier 3 class. Not a single one. Not more than one either.

    Zero.

    I also found just a handful of classes that were full-list casters like the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage, no Tome of Battle classes at all (but one Monk variant who used known/readied "techniques" and "stances" up to level 5) and only three real invokers. The rest was made up of Fighter variants, Monk wannabes, buffed Codzillas and Gods and apprentices of the Lightning Warrior (which, frankly, sometimes wasn't even the greatest offender it seems).

    Quote Originally Posted by tarkisflux View Post
    If you ever find yourself stuck without GitP access again, you could try the same at the other wiki, www.dnd-wiki.org. I'd be pretty interested to know if you see a difference between the two. And you might even run into some of your own work there (that Havvy transferred over :-).
    Oh, I've certainly thought of it and it is a great idea, so I'll make note of it and do so.

    EDIT: Wait, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? I feel stalked.

    The Homebrew Tier Compendium will most likely mainly hold classes posted on GitP, but I will not entirely neglect other boards, especially since I know the minmaxboards have a lot of awesome stuff in them, the WotC forums has some gems lost to time, ENWorld has a scala of delicious classes lurking about despite apparently the 4E parts there being much more active than the 3.5 ones these days (I don't go there often) and if I remember to, Fax's Competitor forums as well. Oh, and a certain someone's ToB forum stuff thingy. I can see you.


    Anyway, I'm glad to see more people joining into the discussions as they rise and fall in this thread. I certainly like to see these kinds of things happening, as they seem to not happen that often here or otherwise mostly outside the Homebrew forums, where they get a different audience.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-07-04 at 05:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    You could still tier Malefactor - they're done and functional!


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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    In the end, I went, I saw, I Tiered. These are the ones out of the whole pile that seem like they might at least have something good going for them.
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    Autoplate Pilot (not sure where to put this; itís been used once in a campaign of mine, but that eventually went on an acid trip, so the class wasnít recognizable anymore)
    Barkeeper (Tier 5)
    Battle Shinigami (Tier 4-5?)
    Deviant (Tier 2)
    Jester (Tier 4, low-ish, can be strangely tanky)
    Gate Knight (it looks fair, but it heavily depends on its sacrifices, which I havenít fully read yet)
    Hexagunner (Tier 4-5, this class is rated 20 by several people on its discussion page, but until it gets some of its later ally-buffing abilities it is very weak, this is mainly because Steady Aim is its main feature and requires a round of prep time, which nerfs itself incredibly)
    Kido Shinigami (Tier 4)
    Mortician (hard to Tier, mostly Tier 5, but it has minionmancy 3 levels before Leadership happens, itís like a lesser necromancer except it gets Animate Dead incredibly early)
    Paladin, Kantian (High Tier 3, one of the best classes on the site, was used in one of my campaigns before)
    Red Mage (pretty nicely put together, Iíd put it at Tier 4; doublecast is hella strong, but otherwise itís like a lesser warmage, so if not for doublecast and the special abilities, it wouldíve been Tier 5)
    Sandbender (dunno, havenít read all its techniques yet, but it should be noted it gets 30 techniques at level 20 and only has 31 possible ones to choose, so most of them will end up a lot the same)
    Sandbinder (Tier 4 low in normal conditions, Tier 6 in sandless areas, depends heavily on if thereís a distinction made between sand and dirt)
    Shinigami (Tier 4-5?, could be the same creator as the Battle Shinigami due to tons of similarities in mechanics, but I donít know which one is his latest version, as the Battle Shinigami is newer, but the Shinigami has been revised more recently it seems, found the creators page, the Shinigami is meant to be replaced by the Battle Shinigami and Kido Shinigami)
    [urlhttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)]Thief-Acrobat[/url] (Tier 4, some nifty abilities, but nothing really special)
    Threat (Tier 4-5?, kinda reminds me of the barbarian, but most abilities are actually nicer, though the barbarian can get pounce, rage variants and other ACFs that make it better)
    [url=http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Time_Bender_(3.5e_Class)Time Bender[/url] (Tier 2 with the fetch, Iíd say, but itís way too easy to screw over, making it unplayable)
    Weeper (Tier 4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Oh, and a certain someone's ToB forum stuff thingy. I can see you.
    Link Please? I feel the need to spread Falling Anvil around a bit.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please . Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please . Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).
    Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work. I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    If anyone has the time, I'd like the base classes listed under "Current Projects" in my extended homebrew signature (linked below) tiered, please . Just a note, the Zodiac entry is a tad long (1.5 posts).
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work.
    Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).
    I feel you on this one
    Last edited by JeminiZero; 2012-07-05 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Not as long. Believe me. The Retooled Monk has three posts worth of info. That's twice as much as yours. And, even then, it *still* required color-coding and another post explaining the creation process to make it work. I still feel proud about it, though, because of the thousands of combinations (YMMV on whether a random combination is completely worthwhile, but I believe each choice has its own worth).
    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon...
    Well, this makes ME feel better about the Grace-Gift. I barely need 3 posts so far (although I did reserve a bunch more, and try to spread everything out).
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    My Arcane Magic takes up three posts so far, that said, it has the potential to grow rather massively, what with the ideas for feats, prestige classes, more spells and another base class I have.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Oh, I've certainly thought of it and it is a great idea, so I'll make note of it and do so.

    EDIT: Wait, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? I feel stalked.
    I'm a bureaucrat (super admin) over there, and responsible for a bunch of stuff. I spend more time there than here, and not much happens there that I don't at least notice. Havvy's transfer thing and the authors he worked with stood out a bit. It seemed like a nice gesture and a good way to get a more permanent and easily searchable home for some good material in other places.

    Full disclosure though - after a recent discussion here about the other wiki, and the ensuing discussion on our end, I have an interest in seeing if there's a noticeable difference between wikis from an outside perspective. Hence the 'suggestion'

    Quote Originally Posted by JeminiZero View Post
    Yeah, similarly, Trissociate sucks up 18 posts, and even then I regret not reserving more, since I might be running out of space soon...
    It's too bad my big stuff isn't in classes. I want to throw down the material volume gauntlet too, but it's not relevant to the thread
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Material Volume?

    My little baby, the Etherworlds setting 2.0 is currently around 40 pages in word. And far from complete.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    I've been waiting for something like this!

    Could you take a look at my Fighter (not really done, but still):

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242689

    and the Harbinger, a sort of warrior diviner:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244491
    Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.

    Also, poking you to take a look at the above. Fighter insight is especially appreciated, as it is one of the core classes in a book I am working on.

    Many thanks!
    Last edited by wayfare; 2012-07-05 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.
    I believe Morph said that there wasn't one tier 3 class on Dandwiki, not in general. I've seen the site myself, and I tend to agree, although there might be one, maybe two tier 3 classes on the site. There is a pretty extreme contrast between power levels, when you look at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyromancer999 View Post
    I believe Morph said that there wasn't one tier 3 class on Dandwiki, not in general. I've seen the site myself, and I tend to agree, although there might be one, maybe two tier 3 classes on the site. There is a pretty extreme contrast between power levels, when you look at it.
    Oh, yeah, thats what I was getting at, lol.

    I hopped on there and the few classes I browsed seemed to fall into the hybrid type i listed above (a maneuver using assassin that gets SA and rogue type skill access, for example). There were also a few that were really cool and thematic (Blackstone Knight), but tend to sacrifice power for thematic power sets.

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    Post Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Hey Morph Bark, poking you briefly about the tier you put my chosen warrior in again.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    You could still tier Malefactor - they're done and functional!
    I just did! What do you think about that, huh?! I also Tiered your Witch Doctor! HA! You can't control me! You can't tell me what to do!

    ...wait.

    On another note on the Witch Doctor, should it have the Historical Tag for Inspiration? I wasn't entirely sure on that. Also, with the Juju Brews it was a little vague to me whether a target would be affected if they didn't drink it and just had it smashes at their feet or something like that. Though it did say the Witch Doctor himself could be affected if doing so with a melee touch attack, so there's that I suppose.

    It's also currently Borderline Tier 3-4, though I think it could be Tier 3 pretty easily. Add some Improved Mojo Brews, I say! Then I'll take another look at it, might be I change my mind. It was a bit of a tough decision on whether to Tier it 3 or Borderline, so I went with my rule of "when in doubt, it's a no", which basically here comes down to "when in doubt, it's the lower Tier".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Material Volume?

    My little baby, the Etherworlds setting 2.0 is currently around 40 pages in word. And far from complete.
    OH ARE WE GOING TO COMPARE E-PEENS NOW, U GAISE

    That makes me sad because I used to have like a page per city, location, organization, several for magic rules, several for plane interactions, several per major NPC and a bunch of really cool maps for my very first setting that I posted on a ProBoards forum I was a member at at the time.

    Then the forum got deleted. ;_;

    Quote Originally Posted by wayfare View Post
    Not one tier 3 class, Morph? -- not even the ones like warmage? Wow, that says a lot about what brewers think the balance point is.
    Do you mean to refer to me by saying "brewers" or to the brewers who post on Dandwiki? I'm trying to gauge your tone here, but I'm getting the feel of negativity, so I'd rather ask instead of drawing hasty conclusions.

    I obviously didn't look at all the classes on Dandwiki (I said I didn't find any Tier 3s, doesn't mean there aren't any!). I mean, there are around 800 of them there. I did look at at least 50 individual ones in detail and glanced over many more and they were either very low-Tier or very high-Tier. I looked at all the ones that had a rating (as shown in the list of Homebrew 3.5 classes) as well as a bunch of classes with interesting names in the huge dump below the list that had yet to be listed, trying to grab a hold of something good, because I didn't have the time and the patience to go through them all. After all, one can only stand so much crap even while there's some good stuff in there and I figured GitP would be working alright for me in a few days again anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    You have two malformed forum codes towards the end here.

    Link Please? I feel the need to spread Falling Anvil around a bit.
    I read you the first time, no need to repost.

    And I'm afraid in this particular case it concerns a closed project forum, so it wouldn't be open to other disciplines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilpich View Post
    Hey Morph Bark, poking you briefly about the tier you put my chosen warrior in again.
    Right. Let me go grab some lunch and then get back here to write you a summary and ponder some on the class.

    EDIT: Right, let's get onto it.

    Let me split it up into parts under its major features: Ocarina songs, Masks, Weapons and Goddess Spells.

    The Ocarina Songs have been done very well, though the Charm song comes too early for an at-will ability and basing the Will save off the Perform check result is iffy, since skill checks are incredibly easy to get high (rings of +30 to a skill are pretty cheap, for example), while saves are very hard to get high without a ton of multiclassing, which monsters will likely not do, so you could start making everyone your friend from level 3 onwards unless they are immune to enchantments, charm effects or mind-affecting effects in general (undead, constructs, fey, plants, oozes). All the rest will want to high-five you, possibly including the BBEG if he wasn't wearing his Third Eye Something at that moment. Besides, it's kind of weird the Charm song save DC features off the skill check result, while all the other Songs have level-based DCs.

    Song of Warping and Song of the Sun are listed under those names on the table, while the other songs are listed on the table as Ocarina ([song name]), which is a little inconsistent. Song of the Sun also says it "essentially switches the AM and PM", but doesn't affect the time and only on a small town area or area of similar size. Perhaps it would be easier to say it creates a darkness or light effect on an area one mile around the location you play the song at, with the effect counting as a 9th-level spell for purposes of dispelling and such? This would also take care of any confusion over the AM-PM thing, since a lot of areas in the world don't use that.

    The other songs are very nice, especially the Song of Healing. Well done.

    The Masks are a nice feature and it was smart of you to not include the masks that were only in Majora's Mask to get other masks or as a gimmick of some sort (though I think you missed a few, but I don't know all the masks off the top of my head). The bonuses the Chosen Warrior gets from the Masks are all pretty low and they never improve, making them feel more like "fluff additions", stuff that is just there because it was in one of the games. Doubling the skills check and ability score bonuses would be a good start. Some of the Masks also come rather late for what abilities they grant, except of course for the Fierce Deity Mask (which has no range listed for its energy blasts, by the way). The duration limitation makes them even worse, though I do agree the Fierce Deity should have one.

    Blade of the Chosen one is nice, though the text and table disagree over when the bonuses are gained exactly. It also advances a little strangely, with the difference in gain between the bonus improvements being 3, 4, 4, 2 and 3 levels respectively (according to the text).

    Whirlwind Attack might be better at level 8 if you said: "while using Whirlwind Attack his reach increases by 5 ft and if he uses a reach weapon he also threatens and attacks those adjacent to him while using Whirlwind Attack. If he uses Whirlwind Attack with his Blade of the Chosen, his reach increases by 10 ft during Whirlwind Attack."

    Things that are important with the Weapons he gains in general: how does he gain them? Are they given to him or can he magically summon them from that level onwards? What happens if he loses them? This is all very vague, yet very important. Also, you call it the Clawshot in the text, but the Hookshot in the table. Also, the Bombs get kind of weak near the later levels (though Bombchus are awesome). The Claw/Hookshot is also rather useless as a weapon for its pitiful damage, but great for movement and utility, though you make no mention of limitations of surfaces it can stick to (which some DMs would restrict severely at some point and those familiar with the source material would likely do so from the start). Also, you make no mention of whether it is held in the hand or something else, which someone not familiar with Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess wouldn't know.

    At this point, he is competent in melee due to his full BAB, hit points and buffed sword and shield, though a problem is that sword-and-board is very suboptimal in DnD. I realize he can pick a weapon that isn't one-handed, or even something other than a sword, but then he ditches his Shield, basically neglecting a class feature that is the equivalent of throwing away up to 25000 gp. He also gets Knockback Strike and Finishing Move, which are situational things and as such don't factor in much (though Finishing Move mimics the source material very well, though on the other hand I'm wondering why you included the Double Clawshot and these maneuvers, but nothing else from Twilight Princess). He mostly seems like Tier 5, no? The Ocarina Songs help him quite a bit in this regard though and his Masks give him a very small amount of utility in combination with the songs. Add the Goddess Spells to that (which are nifty, but they are only three spells in the end) and you basically got a class that could have been Tier 3 if it were actually good with at least half of those things.

    To summarize:
    - The Masks are next to useless.
    - The Goddess Spells are nice, but there are too little of them to really add much.
    - The Bombs are useless at mid and high levels.
    - The Claw/Hookshot is situationally useful for utility and movement and useless for damage.
    - The Sword and Shield are nice, but ultimately class abilities that amount to "I have a weapon", which the Soulknife also has.
    - The Weapon Focus and other feats granted are a nice little bonus, but they're amongst the worst feats out there, so ultimately add next to nothing.
    - The three maneuvers are highly situational.
    - The Ocarina songs are nice for healing and utility, but ultimately situational.

    Honestly, I want to congratulate you with upgrading the Hero of Time and improving upon it and making a lot of class features and doing alright at it, but in the end the execution is too much of a grab bag of stuff with each part not being strong enough to support the other parts, making it end up like the Monk. In fact, if it weren't for all the tiny bits of utility it has (limited teleportation, at-will healing, movement) and that it can do better in melee, I'd now feel like shoving it into Tier 5 territory, just like I did earlier with my Botanimorphist that I actually didn't want in there.

    My suggestions to improve it would be to split apart the grab bag-ness of it a bit and improve upon the parts that had little going for them. For one, you could turn it into a martial adept to expand upon the three limited "maneuvers" it currently has. Another idea would be to expand upon the Masks and the Songs. I think you perhaps should split those up, so that the Chosen Warrior needs to choose a kind of "path" for himself and take either the Masks or the Songs, but not both. Then you can add more Songs and Masks as well, perhaps even make a new Mask based on Wolf Link from Twilight Princess? Under Songs you could also put things from other, newer games as well, if they are sufficiently different enough. Then you could grant the Chosen Warrior one of his "path" abilities every other level, so ending up with ten Songs or ten Masks.

    If you don't want maneuvers in the class (which your EHS summary of it suggests), check out the Channeler. You could perhaps do it like so that you have a Path of Songs, a Path of Masks, a Path of Items and a Path of... I dunno, something else (Combat? with the TP maneuvers). Then there's versatility in the class since everyone can make different combinations of path specializations, but they keep it so that you get a bit of all the different abilities Link has had in his various incarnations. Then you can look at what stays consistent throughout the incarnations (a special sword, the Triforce of Courage and a spirit guide of sorts) and make that a part of the main class features that everyone gets no matter their path choices.

    There are more suggestions, but it already begins to sound to me like I want to dictate everything, which I don't want to, because that just wouldn't be fun, since you are the class creator in the end. Anyway, yeah, here's my evaluation. In hindsight, might sound a little harsh, but I merely try to be honest, and I can get a little brutal with that.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2012-07-06 at 09:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium


    Do you mean to refer to me by saying "brewers" or to the brewers who post on Dandwiki? I'm trying to gauge your tone here, but I'm getting the feel of negativity, so I'd rather ask instead of drawing hasty conclusions.

    I obviously didn't look at all the classes on Dandwiki (I said I didn't find any Tier 3s, doesn't mean there aren't any!). I mean, there are around 800 of them there. I did look at at least 50 individual ones in detail and glanced over many more and they were either very low-Tier or very high-Tier. I looked at all the ones that had a rating (as shown in the list of Homebrew 3.5 classes) as well as a bunch of classes with interesting names in the huge dump below the list that had yet to be listed, trying to grab a hold of something good, because I didn't have the time and the patience to go through them all. After all, one can only stand so much crap even while there's some good stuff in there and I figured GitP would be working alright for me in a few days again anyways.
    No snark intended --i am truly snarkless, having thrown my last at an ape alien in 2003 (really me, a Halflife pun, did you have to do that). I was referring to the community over there, and from what I've seen, you are right: there are a ton of hybrid classes that sort of ram two ideas together and try to make it work, and there are some pretty interesting ideas that would be really fun to play if optimization wasn't an issue.

    The stuff i saw was largely t4 or 5, with a few classes that were high T3 but thematically not so sound. There was a maneuver assassin, for example, that was full ba, full sa, full skill list rogue which would be quite fun and powerful, but didn't feel very assassin-y to me.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Another big thing to remember is that a lot of people make classes with no intention of multi classing, min maxing or external splat booking, they simply intend to play the clas as posted from level 1 Ė 20. As a result the class can be balanced when looked at in isolation OR when considered in the context of a custom campaign. However, once the class is posted online people forget that outsiders do not restrict themselves in the same way when consulting the class and if they chuck in the big wide world the wheels soon fall off...

    Does this make it a bad class? Not reallyÖ if any homebrew works and is balanced within your own game and ultimately makes things more awesome (rule of cool style) its fine.

    Does it make it a bad class to post on a forum without stating the above proviso? most certainly.
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    Cool! I wasn't expecting the [Horror] tag on the Witch Doctor, but I suppose that Inside-Out Flask is a doozy.

    Question - why the [Tank] tag on the Malefactor, given their Rogue-like chassis?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I read you the first time, no need to repost.
    Completely accidental I assure you.
    EDIT: Duplicate post deleted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    And I'm afraid in this particular case it concerns a closed project forum, so it wouldn't be open to other disciplines.
    Oh, ok.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-07-06 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Cool! I wasn't expecting the [Horror] tag on the Witch Doctor, but I suppose that Inside-Out Flask is a doozy.

    Question - why the [Tank] tag on the Malefactor, given their Rogue-like chassis?
    The Horror tag seemed appropriate, given some of the abilities and general fluff and theme of the class. By the way, you didn't answer a question I had earlier: should I give it the Historical tag for Inspiration?

    I wasn't sure about the Tank tag for the Malefactor, actually, but they had several Maledictions and Auras that would be very fitten on a Tank, like enemies taking damage if they attacked someone other than the Malefactor, or not being able to leave the area 30 ft around the Malefactor. Since they aren't Con-based and only have a d8 Hit Die their hp won't be as high as that of, say, a Limit Knight or Shield by far, but Con can easily be taken as a secondary ability score with Dex made the tertiary one and focusing on Maledictions and Auras like those two and others that do similar things or penalize attack rolls and the like. It wouldn't be their primary role, nor their intended one, but I could see a Malefactor being a decent Tank. If you'd search the Tier list for Tank classes, you'd currently find only six classes with that tag. That's currently on par with Debuffers and just above Crafters with five, putting that role at the one least filled. (Well, excluding Trapmonkey and Moneymaker, but the former is more of a half-role and the latter isn't much of a party role at all.)

    I have also put the Malefactor on the Tier list that isn't for the Fix classes, because while intended to be a Hexblade Fix originally, it is just so wildly different from the original Hexblade that it is no longer recognizable. However, because of this original intention, I did give it the Fix tag to show so.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    So, uh, how 'bout that Barrier Mage's tier?
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    I probably wouldn't give it the [Historical] tag if I were you; it was intended to emulate the IDEA of witch doctors, and not any kind of facts or truths about witch doctors or voodoo (two ideas that I should note are actually wholly separate).


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Mage-King View Post
    So, uh, how 'bout that Barrier Mage's tier?

    Mage King, this isnt a tier comment, but I love the idea of a battlefield control specialist and think that you did a good job making a fun, thematic class! Have you ever used this class in a campaign -- i'd live to hear how it turned out. I imagine that it has a steeper learning curve than a standard mage or even the specialust mage types like the dread necromancer or beguiler.
    Last edited by wayfare; 2012-07-06 at 05:18 PM.

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