New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 9 of 50 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617181934 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 270 of 1500
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I was hoping he hadn't, because we'd get another Finger Horror.
    To be fair (since fairness is the rallying cry du jour..) there is absolutely nothing about the switchbeast so far that says its *supposed* to be even remotely fair for a solo orc (or group of released slaves). As far as the goblins were concerned that was sort of the whole point...

    As to Mr Fingers, it was a critter in a dungeon that was supposed to have a 50% casualty rate, also not exactly "fair" as far as the balance crowd is concerned. So I'm not sure why so many people would object so much to a nasty critter but not to a nasty dungeon. Something has to produce that casualty rate, after all.

    But if people are still stuck on fair I remind you with emphasis that fair merely requires that there be a way of dealing with the situation; there is not one single thing anywhere at all in any version of the D+D rules that says that way must be over the critters steaming corpse by main force. And so far there has been a way. So I suggest people worry more about the overall encounters and not the stats of any given critter in an encounter. Sometimes you have to think your way through an encounter, not brute force it, and as we know, Thunt is very much in the thinking camp. Luke beat the rancor by thinking, Kin beat Scorpikin by thinking, Min-max beat the ring duo by thinking (surely a sign of the apocalypse... :P ), and so on.
    Last edited by VariaVespasa; 2012-07-09 at 04:19 AM.
    \'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    To be fair (since fairness is the rallying cry du jour..) there is absolutely nothing about the switchbeast so far that says its *supposed* to be even remotely fair for a solo orc (or group of released slaves). As far as the goblins were concerned that was sort of the whole point...

    As to Mr Fingers, it was a critter in a dungeon that was supposed to have a 50% casualty rate, also not exactly "fair" as far as the balance crowd is concerned. So I'm not sure why so many people would object so much to a nasty critter but not to a nasty dungeon. Something has to produce that casualty rate, after all.
    To be fair () people were mainly complaining 'cause Mr. fingers' initial stats were incoherent.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-07-09 at 03:41 AM.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    They were only incoherent by current ideas of balance and fairness, not in and of themselves. Its a glass cannon. Current ideas dont like glass cannons, and thats the real objection as far as I can tell, but they have their place especially in old-school play and Thunt is more old-school than not. People seem to be too stuck on the idea that if its a critter they've encountered they must be able to kill it. And, usually, not only kill it but kill it using only 1/4 of their daily resources. It should not be so to the point that people take it for granted.
    \'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    Its a glass cannon. Current ideas dont like glass cannons, and thats the real objection as far as I can tell, but they have their place especially in old-school play and Thunt is more old-school than not.
    Your argument has some merit.
    Still, monsters in 3.5 have (usually) balanced abilities: with a certain amount of HD you'll have SAs with a certain DC, together with the size come also specific bonuses, and so on.
    IMO there's nothing inherently wrong in an unbalanced glass cannon, but it's not the "standard as it should be when properly done" of 3.5 system, and the first version of Mr. Fingers didn't follow the 3.5 rules, although it claimed to do.
    But I don't want to raise a dead horse.

    Edit: v Douglas explained the issue far better than me.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-07-09 at 07:06 AM.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    There were some people objecting to how high the save DCs were and how much of a glass cannon it was, but by far the majority of the issues with Mr. Fingers were about derived stats that did not match what the rules for those stats' relationships with the base stats said they should be, and had no explanation for the discrepancy. Things like an initiative modifier of -1 despite a dexterity score of 12, and will and fort saves several points higher (by different margins) than its number of undead hit dice plus ability score modifiers could account for, all with no indication of why the differences existed or even that they were deliberate.

    There were pretty close to a full dozen different mismatches like that throughout the stat page, and that is what people are talking about when they say the stats were "incoherent". It has nothing to do with balance, fairness, or anything even remotely related to the two concepts; it's all about numbers and other portions of a stat block that were not consistent with the rules for how they relate to each other - things where the criticism given if it were posted in the giantitp homebrew forum would be "your math is off" rather than anything about the concept.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2012-07-09 at 06:37 AM.
    Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.

    Avatar by Ceika.

    Archives:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Saberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
    Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
    Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
    Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I was hoping he hadn't, because we'd get another Finger Horror.
    You mean, Finger Error.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
    Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yuki Akuma's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    The Land of Angles

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    They were only incoherent by current ideas of balance and fairness, not in and of themselves. Its a glass cannon. Current ideas dont like glass cannons, and thats the real objection as far as I can tell, but they have their place especially in old-school play and Thunt is more old-school than not. People seem to be too stuck on the idea that if its a critter they've encountered they must be able to kill it. And, usually, not only kill it but kill it using only 1/4 of their daily resources. It should not be so to the point that people take it for granted.
    If something has a CR, that means it should be able to be defeated by a party of four characters with a level equal to that CR while expending 25% of their resources.

    This is how the game works. There is no question about this. Sure, you can send a massively over-CR'd critter at a party for a total party kill if you want... but a party with the same level as the monster's CR should be able to beat it. That is a basic assumption of the system, and without it, everything breaks.

    Mr. Fingers was horribly mismatched for his CR. His abilities would let him instantly kill half the party and then be one shot in the next turn. That is terrible homebrew.
    There's no wrong way to play. - S. John Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Qwertystop's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    In other words, yes you could put something in a dungeon thats too hard for the PCs in the dungeon, but in that case the CR should be higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    As it's been mentioned, the reason people complained about Fingers wasn't its relative CR or power, it was incoherent because the math didn't add up. Supposedly it was 100% legal for 3.x play, but actually deriving the formulas for things like Fortitude, Hit Points, Initiative, and Saves (both offensive and defensive) showed that Thunt had actually just written down whatever numbers looked good/cool.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    My main problem with the lesser finger horror is that it completely ruined the mystery/horror of Mr. Fingers. Wouldn't have been as bad if it was uploaded after the Mr. Fingers scene was finished.

    I also didn't like the author insert.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    My main problem with the lesser finger horror is that it completely ruined the mystery/horror of Mr. Fingers. Wouldn't have been as bad if it was uploaded after the Mr. Fingers scene was finished.

    I also didn't like the author insert.
    Author insert? If you mean Mr. Fingers was based off a recurring nightmare Thunt had, I don't see how that could be any issue at all. It's not like he made himself a character in the comic or anything.

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    It was just a very specific backstory, and since we already knew it was a recurring nightmare of his...I don't know. Just felt kinda cheesy to me.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    I wouldn't be surprised if many of the other non-standard monsters he has used (like the "switchbeast") also originated in dreams.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
    Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if many of the other non-standard monsters he has used (like the "switchbeast") also originated in dreams.
    I wonder, how would Inception look like, if they tried to invade Thunt's mind.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki Akuma View Post
    If something has a CR, that means it should be able to be defeated by a party of four characters with a level equal to that CR while expending 25% of their resources.

    This is how the game works. There is no question about this. Sure, you can send a massively over-CR'd critter at a party for a total party kill if you want... but a party with the same level as the monster's CR should be able to beat it. That is a basic assumption of the system, and without it, everything breaks.

    Mr. Fingers was horribly mismatched for his CR. His abilities would let him instantly kill half the party and then be one shot in the next turn. That is terrible homebrew.

    Basically this. This is also why in my fix I made the Finger Horror's goo ability an auto fail for 3hd or fewer characters, so it keeps the same "you're screwed we're all dead" feeling for low level characters, but level appropriate characters can take it down with significantly less trouble. So if used normally, it's not so bad (though a bad fort save can really make a bad day for your character who just lost a limb), but if used as it was in the comic, it has much the same effect.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  16. - Top - End - #256
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    But I don't want to raise a dead horse.
    Of course you dont raise a dead horse- you animate it instead since its cheaper to feed and you dont have to groom it. :P

    I'll buy the incorrect CR arguement to some degree, although since it can be an easy kill it comes down more to party composition/equipment and setting/playstyle for how nasty it is. (lots of range ability and good scouting makes it a lot easier than no scouting and an all melee group, etc, but I tend to think that a group that doesnt scout deserves what it gets really)

    To the initiative comment specifically, as I recall this is a critter that breaks its own bones when it moves. Seems like a reasonable cause for an initiative penalty to me. Perhaps I'll go and actually read the details of that discussion sometime to see if I have further comment.
    \'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Argonth

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    Of course you dont raise a dead horse- you animate it instead since its cheaper to feed and you dont have to groom it. :P

    I'll buy the incorrect CR arguement to some degree, although since it can be an easy kill it comes down more to party composition/equipment and setting/playstyle for how nasty it is. (lots of range ability and good scouting makes it a lot easier than no scouting and an all melee group, etc, but I tend to think that a group that doesnt scout deserves what it gets really)

    To the initiative comment specifically, as I recall this is a critter that breaks its own bones when it moves. Seems like a reasonable cause for an initiative penalty to me. Perhaps I'll go and actually read the details of that discussion sometime to see if I have further comment.
    Or maybe you could not do that, and let it rest already.
    Witty sig here nosey, aren't ya?

    Avatar by Hacktor

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Surgebinder in the Playground Moderator
     
    Douglas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    To the initiative comment specifically, as I recall this is a critter that breaks its own bones when it moves. Seems like a reasonable cause for an initiative penalty to me. Perhaps I'll go and actually read the details of that discussion sometime to see if I have further comment.
    That is exactly the reason THunt gave when he got around to giving one, and that's not the problem. The problem was that this, and all of the rest of the dozen or so discrepancies, were not explained in any way in the stat page itself. The math didn't add up in a whole bunch of places, and there was nothing to indicate that it was all intentional beyond faith in the author's infallibility.

    If you really want to see the train wreck of a discussion thread on the issue, here it is. Note that what I linked is the second thread on the topic, started after the first one got lost to a server crash (I think). Before it was lost, the first thread contained a post (which I admit was rudely worded) from me listing a bunch of one-liners about what was "wrong", an extremely rudely worded response from THunt giving explanations for each and every one of them, and comments from a bunch of other people very similar to many of those in the second thread.
    Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.

    Avatar by Ceika.

    Archives:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Saberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
    Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
    Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
    Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    "I've just had my poetic license revoked. I was banned for taking a cesura too fast and stopping at an enjambment whilst under the influence of Auden." - Stephen Fry

  20. - Top - End - #260
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Argonth

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Spoiler
    Show
    Oh wow. Biscuit is hurt a lot worse than I thought he was. At least the switchbeast has probably forgotten all about him. It looks like it's having great fun with it's new toys.
    Witty sig here nosey, aren't ya?

    Avatar by Hacktor

  21. - Top - End - #261
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Gnome Alone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Cat Food Island
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Um, can anyone tell
    Spoiler
    Show
    who killed Tul? Was it Biscuit or the switchbeast? I'm thinking Biscuit but his arms look sort of positioned wrong, or maybe just obscured, for that.
    Last edited by Gnome Alone; 2012-07-10 at 03:58 PM.
    Avatar by the one and only Ceika.
    "I'll be whatever I wanna do." - Philip J. Fry
    my fake wizard|my fake one-shot|my fake link

  22. - Top - End - #262
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Argonth

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnome Alone View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Um, can anyone tell who killed Tul? Was it Biscuit or the switchbeast? I'm thinking Biscuit but his arms look sort of positioned wrong or maybe just obscured for that.
    We like to use spoilers around here for a while after the update so no one who checks here first gets the surprise ruined.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Biscuit axed Tul out of the air and then threw his axe at a straggler.
    Witty sig here nosey, aren't ya?

    Avatar by Hacktor

  23. - Top - End - #263
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Spoiler
    Show

    And that, friends, is what happens when you are Wrong Genre Savvy.

  24. - Top - End - #264
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Gnome Alone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Cat Food Island
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Well thanks, that's what I figured but it was unclear. As far as spoilers go, I get it with like a TV show where not everyone's gonna see it at the same time, what with the vagaries of Netflix and different countries and all, but I have a bit of a hard time understanding who would check out the discussion thread before the update of the webcomic it's about.... I mean, huh? I kind of, you know, do it in the exact opposite of that order. But in the interest of When In Rome... (...Kill Some Carthaginians) I suppose I'll go back and enspoilerize. Also,
    Spoiler
    Show
    It did actually occur to me that maybe I should use them, but I figured a character introduced and murdered on the same page was not exactly Earth Baser Darth Vader (man, auto-correct is weird) is Luke's dad level stuff.
    Last edited by Gnome Alone; 2012-07-10 at 04:04 PM.
    Avatar by the one and only Ceika.
    "I'll be whatever I wanna do." - Philip J. Fry
    my fake wizard|my fake one-shot|my fake link

  25. - Top - End - #265
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Almonte, ON, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Well, its just because some people -- like me -- rely on this very thread to tell them when there's an update. The spoiler tags are to avoid someone seeing something spoiling the new comic because they accidentally scrolled too far past the 'new comic' post.

    Anyway. It's not a big deal. We usually take it pretty crazy far, anyway. Past the first three or four posts it's kind of overkill.

  26. - Top - End - #266
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Hey, look! Squirrels!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Nice anticlimax.

    Member of the Phyrnglsnyx Pronunciation Pact

    PHYRNGLSNYX
    Fear-en-gil-sniks

    [fyːrŋlˌsnɪks]

    Spoiler: Past Avatars
    Show


    Current avatar by Cuthalion. Thanks a lot!

  27. - Top - End - #267
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Gobbotopia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Spoiler
    Show


    Poor Tul
    Avy by Thormag
    Spoiler
    Show


  28. - Top - End - #268
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Ok, there have been enough spoilers posts, if you scrolled down that much without stopping to read the comic, you'll get spoiled.

    Is it just me, or did anyone got the feel that biscuit apparently insta tamed the beast?
    My avatar used to be a W.S.D. (Weapon of Sanity Destruction)
    "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
    Quote Originally Posted by tomaO2 View Post
    After reading the Dominic Deagen forum threads, can you really accuse me of bashing? Read it again. That is the kind of thing that is pure venom. They don't even take it seriously anymore. It's just done for fun.

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Qwertystop's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Felius View Post
    Ok, there have been enough spoilers posts, if you scrolled down that much without stopping to read the comic, you'll get spoiled.

    Is it just me, or did anyone got the feel that biscuit apparently insta tamed the beast?
    He didn't tame it, he just gave it somewhere to go that had food that was less painful.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Lost in the Hinterlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Goblins IX: For that, you shall DIE!

    Directing giant monsters towards other mortal foes was how Conan the Barbarian dealt with approximately 40 per cent of the creatures he faced in the comics.

    If he couldn't personally kill the beast, then more often than not he was siccing it on someone else.
    Last edited by Giggling Ghast; 2012-07-10 at 07:59 PM.
    A father taken by time, a brother dead by my own hand.
    With this work behold my grief, in Stone and shifting sand.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •