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    Default Fire Emblem: Numbers

    So Iíve been thinking about numbers lately, partly because I want to pick up my game again in the future with a few extra modifications, and partly because numbers are awesome. With that in mind, I was looking at character creation rules and ways of catering to different play styles through base numbers; i.e., I want the option of having characters that suck early, but are great later, characters that are good the whole way, and others that start strong, but offer less late game (but still arenít useless!). Where did this lead me? Well, I have seen a number of forum emblem games that used all sorts of methods to allow this, but all of them struck me as a pretty bad trade off one way or another, or were a tacked on rule just because people wanted it. That being said, if you have one of these in your game, donít take offence, it was inspiration on your ideas that got me to do this! Anyway, the tradeoff is always between growths and base numbers, assuming some kind of equality at 5% to 1, but if you look at it from a late game perspective, itís more like 1.9 to 1, or two-to-one, if you like rounding. So if you weaken your early game, you can double everything you lose, which is reasonable within limitations. Turn that around, and everything you take early on costs you a point later, meaning you end up, as expected, behind the people that went for the strong late game.

    {TABLE]Base|Growth|Total
    20|3.5|153
    25|3.35|152.3
    30|3.25|153.5
    35|3.1|152.8
    40|3|154
    45|2.85|153.3
    50|2.7|152.6
    55|2.6|153.8
    60|2.45|153.1[/TABLE]

    So thatís how I got to this chart. This was the first iteration for me, defining each trade equally and ending every transaction with the same goal. After crunching some numbers and simply looking at what I wrote, I realized just how insanely bad the balance was if I was to offer all nine of these options. Who would ever want to play the hyper-Nino when you could play the 60-2.45 option? Both end with the same number of stats, so there is no reason to gimp your character in the early game when the promise of late game power is gone. This was a problem, of course, because the game doesnít and shouldnít work this way.

    Letís look at a system where 50 is the base and 300% growths are normal, hp is 1:1 and there is no need for Con or both Mag and Str.

    {TABLE]Base|Growth|Total
    44|3.3|169.4
    50|3|164
    56|2.7|158.6[/TABLE]

    The difference between any one pair is 5.4, and the difference between the extremes is double that, 10.8. In this closed set of numbers, bounding at 6/30% in either direction keeps the numbers rather balanced, but it does not really allow for a sort of Jeigan character, or Est/whatever, but at the same time, increasing at the same rate would cause the higher base character to fall away entirely, while the higher growths would become very powerful late game.

    What does all this mean? Well, for one, I need to do more research into base numbers and growths for fire emblem games, but also that I need to look at what the tradeoff means. Is a two-to-one trade fair both ways? Iím not sure. Iíve made literally dozens of characters just to analyze different growths and bases just for fun, and usually, the point where the average character beats out the high base character is before promotion, and the high growths character beats them just after promotion, and then high growths beats normal around half way to 20/20. I think that is rather fair, but I feel that the high base character falls off a little too far.

    Up next: Alternate systems for wider ranges of base stats and growths, then new numbers for weapons, class caps, promotion gains?

    tl;dr: I should never have free time at work.
    Last edited by ZeltArruin; 2012-06-08 at 03:16 PM.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Well I think it is fair. Going Nino increases the chance of dying (In games with death) And there is no guarantee that the game will last long enough to reap the benefits of going Nino.
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    Fire emblem avatar by Water_and_Wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerpriest
    Since a Druid is really hard to screw up bar the player taking asynergistic choices. Since summon more bears is always decent

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Well I think it is fair. Going Nino increases the chance of dying (In games with death) And there is no guarantee that the game will last long enough to reap the benefits of going Nino.
    I'm aware, and I'm not even sure it matters that the system is more robust, but it was a sort of thought exercise for me. I am still interested in coming up with a balanced way to implement more varied kinds of character generation.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    I'm aware, and I'm not even sure it matters that the system is more robust, but it was a sort of thought exercise for me. I am still interested in coming up with a balanced way to implement more varied kinds of character generation.
    Maybe implement something that after the first 6 points it gives you more points for growths.

    Like gaining starting points would be after the first 6, it becomes 3 points for 10 growth.

    And after the first 30%growth it costs 3 points for 10 growth?
    A pokemon emerald nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212805 Complete.
    Blazing hate a Fire red nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222017
    Fire emblem 7 Nuzlocke inspired http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240176 Complete

    Fire emblem avatar by Water_and_Wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerpriest
    Since a Druid is really hard to screw up bar the player taking asynergistic choices. Since summon more bears is always decent

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Maybe implement something that after the first 6 points it gives you more points for growths.

    Like gaining starting points would be after the first 6, it becomes 3 points for 10 growth.

    And after the first 30%growth it costs 3 points for 10 growth?
    I definitely had something like that in mind. I'll think stuff over for a bit then see what I come up with in a couple days. I might skip ahead to weapons or one of those other listed things, since they are easier to do, and seems more relevant than mucking about with some fiddly numbers.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Maybe implement something that after the first 6 points it gives you more points for growths.

    Like gaining starting points would be after the first 6, it becomes 3 points for 10 growth.

    And after the first 30%growth it costs 3 points for 10 growth?
    So you're saying to do it like point-buy D&D.

    I like it. It does put a severe damper on people trying to spec overly hard unless you have a very gentle gradiant. Given the way that FE works, I feel that it's a bit punishing towards myrmidons in particular, but if you're using those fancy capacity-skill things from the later FE games, I guess it's not as much of a concern? Or you could just play with bonus/reduced stats/growths like we usually have for classes.

    Well, I'll look at this more a bit later.

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    There's also class changes to take into account, they boost certain growths and take the equation another 20-40 levels. That'd change up the balance quite a bit.

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    There's also class changes to take into account, they boost certain growths and take the equation another 20-40 levels. That'd change up the balance quite a bit.
    I'm not worried about that, practically no forum emblem games use it. I might look at it later on, but it is not a big concern in any way.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    ...I miss Garryl's system.


    Finally forced me into getting one of these.

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Penguinator View Post
    ...I miss Garryl's system.
    Yeah, that system was fun.

    Wasn't someone in one of his thread talking about how they might make a game with his system?
    A pokemon emerald nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212805 Complete.
    Blazing hate a Fire red nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222017
    Fire emblem 7 Nuzlocke inspired http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240176 Complete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerpriest
    Since a Druid is really hard to screw up bar the player taking asynergistic choices. Since summon more bears is always decent

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    flabort. I've been working on some sprites for him, but his activity's been scarce at best. He's a busy hand.


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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Penguinator View Post
    ...I miss Garryl's system.
    Was his the really freeform three tier system with talents and stuff?
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    Was his the really freeform three tier system with talents and stuff?
    Yup that's the one. And several additional weapon and magic types.
    A pokemon emerald nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212805 Complete.
    Blazing hate a Fire red nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222017
    Fire emblem 7 Nuzlocke inspired http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240176 Complete

    Fire emblem avatar by Water_and_Wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerpriest
    Since a Druid is really hard to screw up bar the player taking asynergistic choices. Since summon more bears is always decent

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Yup that's the one. And several additional weapon and magic types.
    I was thinking about that too. There were rampant power problems for T3 characters, but T1 and 2 were really great.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    I was thinking about that too. There were rampant power problems for T3 characters, but T1 and 2 were really great.
    Well if Flabort does use Garryl's system the problems could be fixed later.
    A pokemon emerald nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212805 Complete.
    Blazing hate a Fire red nuzlocke http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222017
    Fire emblem 7 Nuzlocke inspired http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240176 Complete

    Fire emblem avatar by Water_and_Wind

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerpriest
    Since a Druid is really hard to screw up bar the player taking asynergistic choices. Since summon more bears is always decent

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Illven View Post
    Well if Flabort does use Garryl's system the problems could be fixed later.
    That was what kept me from saying anything. The longest running game so far is just reaching promoted classes, so it's about half way over. The odds of any other game surpassing TheSummoners and even getting close to T3 is very unlikely.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeltArruin View Post
    That was what kept me from saying anything. The longest running game so far is just reaching promoted classes, so it's about half way over. The odds of any other game surpassing TheSummoners and even getting close to T3 is very unlikely.
    Yeah, a lot of the games don't reach promotion, since they tend to die off from the amount of work needed to go into them.
    Possible solutions to getting to T3:
    *Starting teams have a higher starting level (there's only a few actual FE games where everyone starts at level one, usually they're about 2-4.)
    *Related to the above, just out right start the game with some or all the team promoted. Players have the option of starting as a Level 10 tier 1 or a Level 1 tier 2.
    *Increase Exp Gain. Simplest solution.

    Unrelated, my problem with Garryl's system is that his Talent system pretty much overshadows the PoR/RD-based skills. Maybe if you combined the Talent and the Skill system to be like Awakening, where some skills have to be unlocked by leveling up before they can be used.
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    Default Re: Fire Emblem: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno9999 View Post
    Yeah, a lot of the games don't reach promotion, since they tend to die off from the amount of work needed to go into them.
    Possible solutions to getting to T3:
    *Starting teams have a higher starting level (there's only a few actual FE games where everyone starts at level one, usually they're about 2-4.)
    *Related to the above, just out right start the game with some or all the team promoted. Players have the option of starting as a Level 10 tier 1 or a Level 1 tier 2.
    *Increase Exp Gain. Simplest solution.

    Unrelated, my problem with Garryl's system is that his Talent system pretty much overshadows the PoR/RD-based skills. Maybe if you combined the Talent and the Skill system to be like Awakening, where some skills have to be unlocked by leveling up before they can be used.
    Agreed. Talents ranged from okay to ridiculously strong if they built their character right.

    Actually, reading over Awakening over at SF is one of the things that inspired me to write that first post, and is direct inspiration for talking about weapon numbers. Awakening just looks so much cleaner and well thought out than previous titles, it makes me happy.
    ~ZA

    Pokemon I breed
    Dratini, Scyther, Skiddo, Ferroseed(SR, Spikes, Leech Seed), Growlithe(Morning Sun, Crunch, Close Combat), Larvitar(SR, Prusuit), Staryu, Chansey(Aroma Therepy, Seismic Toss), Gible, Eevee(Wish), Inkay, Magickarp, Riolu(Crunch, Bullet Punch), Charmander(Dragon Dance, Outrage), Frokie, Rotom, Drillbur, Vullaby(Knockoff, Foul Play), Pumpkaboo(destiny bond), fletchinder, goomy, chimchar(thunderpunch, firepunch, fakeout), swinub(SR, icicle crash)

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