Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV

[Amphetryon]

Questions:





There are many differences between the benefits gained over the 10 levels of the class and the actual template. Are you saying above that the character takes on the template in addition to the abilities gained? that the template supersedes the other gains at 10th level? or something else? I've always assumed that the character doesn't actually inherit the template, but your "unending disqualification/qualification loop" seems to imply that you believe they do inherit the template and their type does change, etc. -- but then how does inheriting the template interact with all of the abilities they've already gained? You've got me very confused :P

I'm at a loss to explain this any more clearly, assuming the tongue at the end isn't intended to indicate your query is facetious.

They gain EXACTLY what the text says. They gain all the benefits they've acquired over the course of 10 levels. They gain a full-strength breath weapon. They gain an additional +4 to STR at 10th level (as noted in the text; PLEASE don't try to parse this as my saying they get any bonuses from Dragon Disciple above and beyond those granted by the text). They gain an addional +2 to CHA (again, exactly as noted in the text). They gain a grand total of +4 in Natural Armor bonus. They gain Low-Light vision (assuming they didn't have it). They gain 60' Darkvision (assuming they didn't have it). They gain immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. They gain immunity to their breath weapon's energy type. They gain, per the verbiage of the PrC, all of these benefits AS THEY COMPLETE THE TRANSFORMATION into a Half-Dragon, and any differences you may perceive between a Half-Dragon who obtained the template by any other means are either incidental or accidental. The differences may well exist, making Dragon Disciples unusual examples of the Half-Dragon template, but examples nonetheless.

What DOES NOT happen is that acquiring the Half-Dragon template at 10th level spontaneously disqualifies the Dragon Disciple from entry into the PrC. Said disqualification would, in theory, immediately remove all benefits gained from the PrC, which would then make the Character eligible for the PrC, which would disqualify him, etc. That's literally ALL the clarification I put in the FAQ is intended to indicate. It's what I hope is a rational reading of the 10th level ability that prevents a ridiculous loop of qualifying and disqualifying the Character from the PrC BY VIRTUE OF TAKING THE PrC.

[KoboldCleric]

My point is just that if they don't actually inherit the template then their race is still non-dragon and they are, as far as "race:" is concerned, not a half-dragon; therefore, there is no "unending disqualification/qualification loop".

But you've answered the question then: they don't gain the template, just the benefits as listed :)

[Kallisti]

I think what he's asking is whether the benefits of the template supersede or stack with the template.

For example, the Dragon Disciple gains +4 Strength, two each at 2nd and 4th level. Then at 10th, they 'take on the half-dragon template' and '[gain] +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma'. The half-dragon template gives +8 Strength.

They gain an additional +4 to STR at 10th level (as noted in the text; PLEASE don't try to parse this as my saying they get any bonuses from Dragon Disciple above and beyond those granted by the text).

Given a Dragon Disciple who had Strength 10 when he entered the class and put ability increases from leveling up into something else, does he finish with 18 Strength (because both the second-and-fourth-level bonuses and the 4-strength bonus described in the text for Dragon Apotheosis are part of the template bonus), 22 Strength (because the 4-strength bonus described in the text is part of the assumption of the template, but the bonuses from second and fourth level are not), or 26 Strength (because each piece of text describing a strength increase is entirely separate)?

Similar questions apply to Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma, and Natural Armor.

The text isn't entirely clear on this point, because it seems clear that at least some of the bonuses acquired from the class are meant to be superseded by the template, but others presumably are not given a ten-level class to acquire a three-LA template.

EDIT: ...or I could entirely have misinterpreted the question and it could be regarding race and prerequisites. Sorry about that.

[Amechra]

Just to mention something:

By the wording of the capstone, you gain the Half-Dragon Template, AND you gain all the benefits of the capstone, namely the stat boosts and other fun stuff.

Also, what is your opinion on using alternate Dragon types from the 10 listed? I mean, you can have Half-Dragons for around 50 different dragons, so having only 10 is kinda eh, plus the ability itself says that you can have alternate types.

I would suggest that you can pick other dragon types that have a Breath weapon, and the damage remains the same (stuff like the Lungs and Shadow Dragons are kinda dicier; I would suggest not allowing them for the purposes of this contest.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think I'll take another swing. It's gonna be fun trying to format the tables properly when my only regular internet access is through my wii.

edit: and by another swing, I mean as a contestant.

[OMG PONIES]

Dragon Disciple, hmm? I was afraid this day would come.

[kestrel404]

I've got a build (actually three...so far, but I'll only submit my best).

Also, we may want to limit this particular competition to one entry per competitor or else we will end up with three dozen entries for this one. Dragon Disciple is a very popular PrC, partly due to its location and partly due to the sheer interestingness of it.

[Amphetryon]

But you've answered the question then: they don't gain the template, just the benefits as listed

When both the verbiage I quoted and I, myself, both specify they gain the Half-Dragon template that grants the specific, listed, benefits, how is that interpreted as NOT gaining the template, exactly? What they don't gain is ADDITIONAL BENEFITS BESIDES THOSE SPECIFIED AS BONUSES BY THE PrC.

Just to mention something:

By the wording of the capstone, you gain the Half-Dragon Template, AND you gain all the benefits of the capstone, namely the stat boosts and other fun stuff.

That would be true if the wording said "In addition to the template, you gain the following. . ." which it does not. This has been asked and answered in thread.

Also, what is your opinion on using alternate Dragon types from the 10 listed? I mean, you can have Half-Dragons for around 50 different dragons, so having only 10 is kinda eh, plus the ability itself says that you can have alternate types.

The footnote in the PrC's breath weapon chart specifies that other Dragon types are allowed, so I won't restrict them. There's no mention whatsoever of additional benefits to those few Dragon types that have no Breath Weapon, though, so those would appear sub-optimal.

For example, the Dragon Disciple gains +4 Strength, two each at 2nd and 4th level. Then at 10th, they 'take on the half-dragon template' and '[gain] +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma'. The half-dragon template gives +8 Strength.

That's not how it's written; the word "and" is not included in the same sentence specifying it gains the Half-Dragon template. There's a full stop (a period), followed by a delineation of the benefits gained at 10th level. When you change the way English is written, you change the meaning.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The footnote in the PrC's breath weapon chart specifies that other Dragon types are allowed, so I won't restrict them. There's no mention whatsoever of additional benefits to those few Dragon types that have no Breath Weapon, though, so those would appear sub-optimal.

Although not quite the same thing, Races of the Dragon (and, earlier, Draconomicon) has entries for different applications of the Half-Dragon template, including parents such as the Fang Dragon and the Lung Dragons.

Would contestants be allowed to use these alternate 'breath weapons' for their entries?

(Also, I'm not intending to compete this time. When my schedule gets a little clearer, I might find some time to judge, however).

[Amphetryon]

Although not quite the same thing, Races of the Dragon (and, earlier, Draconomicon) has entries for different applications of the Half-Dragon template, including parents such as the Fang Dragon and the Lung Dragons.

Would contestants be allowed to use these alternate 'breath weapons' for their entries?

(Also, I'm not intending to compete this time. When my schedule gets a little clearer, I might find some time to judge, however).

I'll say yes, but will also allow judges leeway in determining how Elegant such choices may be.

[gbprime]

Also, we may want to limit this particular competition to one entry per competitor or else we will end up with three dozen entries for this one. Dragon Disciple is a very popular PrC, partly due to its location and partly due to the sheer interestingness of it.

I was thinking the same thing. Hence the reason I pledged to only enter once!

[Amechra]

For Shadow Dragons (i.e., the only Dragon that has a breath weapon granted by half-Dragon that is not expressed in damage), would you just get the 1 Negative level when other dragon-types get their 6d10 damage? There really isn't a way to split it up...

Plus, does the capstone count as having the Template for purposes of prerequisites?

[Piggy Knowles]

If I enter, I'll only enter once.

I have a few ideas, some of which seem quite good, but the problem is, they are all things I've seen done before, often more than half a decade ago. This ingredient is pretty well-worn territory, even more so than the Shadowdancer. I'll have to give this one some serious thought.....

[Amphetryon]

For Shadow Dragons (i.e., the only Dragon that has a breath weapon granted by half-Dragon that is not expressed in damage), would you just get the 1 Negative level when other dragon-types get their 6d10 damage? There really isn't a way to split it up...

Plus, does the capstone count as having the Template for purposes of prerequisites?

Yes. Also, yes.

[Z3ro]

Oh, god, there are going to be a lot of entries this time around. I don't think anything I can throw together will stand out, so I'll judge instead (something tells me we're not going to get lots of judges this time around). Criteria:

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Originality: This category has two main components; was your build similar to any of the other builds submitted, and was it similar to any well-known builds. In addition, I will penalize your build if it uses obvious tricks in obvious ways or well-known exploits in expected ways. Bonus points for things that haven't been thought of before (or at least with respect to the secret ingredient) and for using known tricks in unusual ways.

Power: How does your build stack up, power wise, to other builds focusing on similar objectives. Power in this category includes flexibility and versatility as well as straight combat power. This category will also measure power from level 1-20; a build will be penalized if it is excessively weak or unplayable at lower levels but ramps up later. Bonus points will be given if most or all of a build's power come from tricks involving the secret ingredient. I normally give a baseline to compare to in power, but I can’t really come up with one here. I’d consider the baseline in power to be something of a weak gish in this case, but can’t come up with a specific example (maybe something like hexblade?).

Elegance: The toughest category to judge and assess. Dipping will not be automatically penalized, but dipping that makes no thematic sense (taking 2 levels of fighter for the feats on a spellcasting class) will be. More importantly, the build should make sense at all levels, 1-20. Abilities that are useless at the level they are taken, but come on line later, will be penalized. Maintaining flavor and flow through the build will be rewarded, while taking out of place levels/abilities will be penalized. This is also the category that will see deductions for questionable use of rules/illegal builds. Expect points lost if you utilize something that most DMs would rule against. Special note: If you assume that you gain the half-dragon template in addition to the bonuses already offered, you will automatically be given a 1 in this category. I don’t care how you justify it, or how otherwise awesome your build is, you get a 1. Just don’t do it.

Use of the Secret Ingredient:Did you take all 10 levels? How many of the abilities granted did you use, and how essential are they to your build? Would your build be better off achieving its goal with another class, rather than the secret ingredient? Why would you use the SI, rather than just taking the half-dragon template (you don’t need to actually answer this question, just something to consider)?

[Kazyan]

For an ingredient that's so well studied, I didn't expect hours and hours of work to be necessary for it to behave. Now for assembly.

[BerronBrightaxe]

First time around..

I'll think I'll give it a shot...

[The Gilded Duke]

Might end up judging, the trick I had is proving harder to control then I anticipated.

[KoboldCleric]

I'll throw my hat in as a tentative judge as well. I say tentative because if there really are some 50+ entries I'd need longer than 2 weeks, but as long as it stays around or under 30 I should be all right.

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Originality: fairly straightforward. Did you use the obvious entries? Does your build focus on using the "staple" class features in standard ways or do you use underappreciated features in wildly unexpected ways?

Power: does your use of DD fit into the power level of its entry? Does it compare to builds with a similar focus? Can it perform a vital party role adequately? Do the abilities you pick up make sense at the levels you get them?

Elegance: I'm not going to penalize dipping. I don't care how many classes you have on your character sheet; I care whether the dips you use are efficient and whether the abilities granted fit in with the character's archetype. (e.g. If your melee monstrosity dips cloistered cleric, that's fine. Explain why "turn undead" makes sense as an ability your character should have; explain how you intend to use "lore" to support your role and archetype.) Does the build have a theme through all levels? If it changes, why?

Use of Secret Ingredient: did you? why did you rather than using something else? Did you use all of it and all of its abilities? Is it the focus of your build the SI? Do the levels you take in DD make sense when you take them?

[Fable Wright]

...Huh, I initially thought that there was no way to make a unique Dragon Disciple build that actually used all of the class abilities. I found one. For the first time, I think I'll be pitching my hat into the Iron Chef ring.

[Zeb]

@Thurbane

exhaustive list, and while I was referencing the first one I think all but two of those would be more interesting as a contestant.

That said I think I will try as a tentative judge.

Criteria

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Originality: this will be based on the originality of your chassis to enter the SI. If it was a common or easy way to get there less points, uncommon or surprising, more points. If I find in via Google a lot less points. Competition point If other entry's use your entry chassis expect to lose some points. As far as race anything goes, but if I have to read more than 3 of the same races who want to be dragons expect a small deduction. Also more points if your concept is cool/I like it.

Power: Base power is compared to your build if it didn't take the SI and instead I just clapped the Half-dragon template on. Does your build cover all the bases, offense, defense, utility? Competition point If another build does it better don't expect points, if your the best then points for you.

Elegance: So much here, is your entry readable, does it make sense, questionable rules use, excessive dipping, lack of focus, use of stinky cheese, and anything that leaves a poor taste in my mouth. Of course the normal deductions for UA set forth by the chairman.

Use of Secret Ingredient: Did you qualify? take all ten levels? make use of the abilities? Did you make it the star of the build? Does your Non-SI synergize with the SI?

Note illegal builds will automatically score below the lowest legal build, sorry even if its really cool.

[dantiesilva]

For some reason I'm pretty confident in myself on this. Hopefully my feats don't fall through on me though, that is what always kills me in the end.

[Menteith]

I finished with my build early, which probably means I made a mistake. Now to see if I can find a way to do this more interestingly before the deadline!

[Xodion]

Well done to the judges for volunteering, as this does look like it will be heavily contested. Can we extend the judging deadline this time around if we do get a large number of entries, as I don't think two weeks will be enough...

[only1doug]

I have a concept, I'll see if I can flesh it out.

[The Gilded Duke]

Hah! Everything finally fit together. Done and submitted. It will be interesting to see if anyone else went the same path.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'll be all over this. Oooh, yeah.
Count me in as a contestant.

[_flint_]

I never really saw that much in the dragon disciple. I mean, why not just be a half dragon 3/Duskblade17?

Anyways, I'm confident that my build that it won't take dead last. Good luck everyone!

[Narsis]

I never really saw that much in the dragon disciple. I mean, why not just be a half dragon 3/Duskblade17?

this. hence why it's an ingredient. :P

[dantiesilva]

Lol no saying things that a person can be now flint I'm sure alot of people wouldn't like that.

Any ways in other news just got one more to go, saddly I forgot to send in one of the things for my character so Chairman may I send it to you now, its for the last one I just sent in dealing with the blank from the blank of the blank.