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    Default Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Title.

    Some monsters seem... oddly constructed. It seems like it'd be more faithful of their abilities to do them differently in certain areas...

    Like the Hydra. It's always listed as 1 monster, when it seems like it should be treated as multiple creatures... just bound within a certain distance of the body, which would also count as a creature...

    Also, monster sizes are odd. The colossal monsters are too small in my book for how big they should be... Godzilla kinda laughs at them.

    Anything else seem... odd? Or am I just being odd.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Monster sizes are odd. The Tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, yet it takes up a mere 30 foot cube in combat.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    The MM suffers from "we're...not really sure what we're doing, here goes!"

    Look at the monsters in the MM3, you'll see a huge difference.

    That said, I think they handled the hydra fairly well.

    As for the tarrasque, I think it mostly stands like a crouching human, the 70ft. length is mostly from the tail.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    You should check out Legend's way of doing hydras - treated as a mass of multiple creatures with a central HP pool, or a "myriad." Uses the same system for things like mobs and other swarms of small enemies in large numbers.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    You should check out Legend's way of doing hydras - treated as a mass of multiple creatures with a central HP pool, or a "myriad." Uses the same system for things like mobs and other swarms of small enemies in large numbers.
    For reference, here are the rules should you wish to reverse engineer them for 3.5: Mooks and Myriads.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    The Hydra is one creature, though. If it were multiple creatures in one place they could take separate class levels, or have different buffs. What you want is one creature that incentivizes attacking the heads. While the hydra's stats as they are aren't the ideal way of doing it, making it multiple creatures isn't obviously superior.

    As for Colossal, it's not supposed to represent Godzilla-esque creatures. Godzilla-sized creatures are implausible within the rubric of D&D combat, and function more as environmental hazards.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Monster sizes are odd. The Tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, yet it takes up a mere 30 foot cube in combat.
    Dragons have a similar problem, at least if you look at the examination of dragon neck, body, tail, and wing sizes in the 3.5 Draconomicon.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Monster sizes are odd. The Tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, yet it takes up a mere 30 foot cube in combat.
    It's just really anorexic so it's only 0.086 ft wide. Poor thing needs help. On the other hand... maybe it just has a really high metabolism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy_1.0 View Post
    It's just really anorexic so it's only 0.086 ft wide. Poor thing needs help. On the other hand... maybe it just has a really high metabolism.
    Which would explain its tendency to wake up and start eating everything.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    As I'm majoring in biology, the surface-area to volume ratio of monsters like the tarrasque somewhat bothers me. They would likely overheat and die from simply moving around too much

    (i.e. a high metabolism would kill it)
    Last edited by Augulus; 2012-06-13 at 12:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augulus View Post
    (i.e. a high metabolism would kill it)
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by VGLordR2 View Post
    Not without a Wish or a Miracle.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Augulus View Post
    As I'm majoring in biology, the surface-area to volume ratio of monsters like the tarrasque somewhat bothers me. They would likely overheat and die from simply moving around too much

    (i.e. a high metabolism would kill it)
    Even ignoring the Wish or Miracle (even if it didn't die, it'd pass out from the non-lethal damage if it overheated), there are ways to get around it:



    Those spikes could be highly vascularized like a stegosaurus's plates or an elephant's ears. Its neck frill and long thin arms and fingers could likewise help regulate its temperature. Its mouth is also enormous and could potentially be used for evaporative cooling like a dog.

    Finally, it spends most of its time underground and dormant. It could very well come out only at night or during periods of cold weather, which would protect it from overheating somewhat.

    Or, y'know, magic.
    Last edited by Jeff the Green; 2012-06-13 at 02:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Even ignoring the Wish or Miracle (even if it didn't die, it'd pass out from the non-lethal damage if it overheated), there are ways to get around it:



    Those spikes could be highly vascularized like a stegosaurus's plates or an elephant's ears. Its neck frill and long thin arms and fingers could likewise help regulate its temperature. Its mouth is also enormous and could potentially be used for evaporative cooling like a dog.

    Finally, it spends most of its time underground and dormant. It could very well come out only at night or during periods of cold weather, which would protect it from overheating somewhat.

    Or, y'know, magic.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    You countered his catgirl murder with catgirl slaughter of the highest quality. Congratulations, sir.
    The only cat girl I really know and like has fought Gods and survived. So I'm cool with this thread. The earlier remark about needing a Wish to finish the Tarrasque... that was epic. VGLord gets cookies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    The Hydra is one creature, though. If it were multiple creatures in one place they could take separate class levels, or have different buffs.
    ..... you can't tell me that facing a Hydra so intelligent enough to have one head study Divine Magic, one study Arcane Magic, one study Bardic Magic, one having Barbarian Anger Issues, and one study Stealth, wouldn't be terrifying, confusing, and awesome... be sure as heck worth a massive CR... although maybe monsters like that shouldn't be allowed to take class levels in the first place if that's such a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    What you want is one creature that incentivizes attacking the heads. While the hydra's stats as they are aren't the ideal way of doing it, making it multiple creatures isn't obviously superior.
    Eh. other than the extra rolls, I don't see why it wouldn't be wrong to count each of the hydra's heads as a creature in addition to it's body. It just sounds like a much better fight than just being swarmed by 1 creature hitting # of head times in 1 round...

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    As for Colossal, it's not supposed to represent Godzilla-esque creatures. Godzilla-sized creatures are implausible within the rubric of D&D combat, and function more as environmental hazards.
    Godzilla would be offended by you calling him an environmental hazard. And there's nothing wrong with fighting a mountain. I still wish they didn't move that Shadow of the Colossus PBP game. I was enjoying that...

    And that doesn't change that so many creatures are ... punny in D&D. I always look at real life Elephants seeing how much bigger in every way they are to me, and I can't help but feel ashamed by them in D&D.
    Last edited by INoKnowNames; 2012-06-14 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Must avoid the double post

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    You countered his catgirl murder with catgirl slaughter of the highest quality. Congratulations, sir.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    *Bows* Thank you, thank you. I merely do my part to eliminate the catgirl scourge.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    I always look at real life Elephants seeing how much bigger in every way they are to me, and I can't help but feel ashamed by them in D&D.
    You don't think 30 str and huge size are big enough for an elephant?

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    Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (104 hp)
    Initiative: +0
    Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
    Armor Class: 15 (2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
    Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+26
    Attack: Gore +16 melee (2d8+15)
    Full Attack: Slam +16 melee (2d6+10) and 2 stamps +11 melee (2d6+5); or gore +16 melee (2d8+15)
    Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
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    Those are the stats for an elephant. Looks pretty badass to me.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2012-06-15 at 06:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateral View Post
    Monster sizes are odd. The Tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, yet it takes up a mere 30 foot cube in combat.
    When they released the colossal red dragon mini, their response to the queries of why it was a 4x4 mini was that 3x3 is just the minimum size for colossal creatures. *shrug*

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    I kinda more or less always figured that the Long creature's space was mosty the body, with Reach being useful for more or less show where the tail / claws / neck and everything reach.

    So, the tarrasque is 30ft side, but if you consider reach, it would be quite larger...
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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    You don't think 30 str and huge size are big enough for an elephant?

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    Hit Dice: 11d8+55 (104 hp)
    Initiative: +0
    Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
    Armor Class: 15 (2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
    Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+26
    Attack: Gore +16 melee (2d8+15)
    Full Attack: Slam +16 melee (2d6+10) and 2 stamps +11 melee (2d6+5); or gore +16 melee (2d8+15)
    Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
    Special Attacks: Trample 2d8+15
    Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +6
    Abilities: Str 30, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
    Skills: Listen +12, Spot +10
    Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Listen)


    Those are the stats for an elephant. Looks pretty badass to me.
    While I thought that an Elephant was just Large Sized in D&D, the strength and damage presented here seems a bit too low for something that is sturdy enough to force a train to derail (admitedly at the cost of it's own life, but still), or strong enough to man handle a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    When they released the colossal red dragon mini, their response to the queries of why it was a 4x4 mini was that 3x3 is just the minimum size for colossal creatures. *shrug*
    Gah... no one wants to make up their minds...

    Quote Originally Posted by DiBastet View Post
    I kinda more or less always figured that the Long creature's space was mosty the body, with Reach being useful for more or less show where the tail / claws / neck and everything reach.

    So, the tarrasque is 30ft side, but if you consider reach, it would be quite larger...
    This kinda makes me think about that image down there. Those people don't look like they take up a 5 ft square... or that beast looks like it takes up a heck of a lot more room than it does in game...

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Do you guys remember the AD&D elephant?
    5 attacks per round.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by INoKnowNames View Post
    ..... you can't tell me that facing a Hydra so intelligent enough to have one head study Divine Magic, one study Arcane Magic, one study Bardic Magic, one having Barbarian Anger Issues, and one study Stealth, wouldn't be terrifying, confusing, and awesome... be sure as heck worth a massive CR... although maybe monsters like that shouldn't be allowed to take class levels in the first place if that's such a problem.
    I want to say there's some kind of template for adding multiple heads, but even then, I don't think they quite make allowance for that.
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    But we even have real world examples of cold cooking, so is it so unreasonable to say that in a fantasy world that could be the norm and that cold COULD be better than heat for cooking?

    You can produce several million pounds of Tarrasque steak every day! (Better hope he's edible.)

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by moritheil View Post
    I want to say there's some kind of template for adding multiple heads, but even then, I don't think they quite make allowance for that.
    Fusion power and Symbiotic creature template both spring to mind.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by moritheil View Post
    I want to say there's some kind of template for adding multiple heads, but even then, I don't think they quite make allowance for that.
    Probably not no. Unless you got some weird symbiotic siamese-twin thing going on.

    As for OP's issues with Colossal monsters not being big enough. Well they made Colossal+ for that very reason. Congrats you're fighting a dragon, that mountain range was it's tail.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar View Post
    As for OP's issues with Colossal monsters not being big enough. Well they made Colossal+ for that very reason. Congrats you're fighting a dragon, that mountain range was it's tail.
    That reminds me; I so gotta go bug that Dm about his Shadow of the Colossus PBP game. He better have campaign logs!

    I swear there was a picture showing the various sizes of characters and monsters compared to each other, that spurned a bit of an argument when I thought the picture was drawn to scale for the game, when it was horribly inflated... The Dragon looked like a Mini Godzilla, despite definitely not taking up that much room normally.

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    Default Re: Why is the Hydra one creature? And other such things.

    everyone knows the tarasque pants like a dog, yawns a lot (been linked to cooling the human brain) sweats profusely, and has cooling vents hidden behind those spines.

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