Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

[Winthur]

Haer'dalis is an awesome character. Pity that he sucks so much in combat.

Eh, he's a Blade, making him a pretty good Hero of Might & Magic (Blade is pretty much the best Bard kit), about the only problem he has being his low CON, but you can alleviate it by having someone else tank and only enter with Haer'dalis after the initiation. Plus when Haer'dalis has Tenser's Transformation then he really puts on the hurt. Actually, just Improved Invisibility or Mirror Image serves well for making him survive. Also, isn't there a belt to improve his CON anyway? He also starts off with decent weapons and has ** in Long and Short Swords (unattainable for another bard), which is a nice perk.

[Morty]

I think I once had Haer'Dalis disintegrated - i.e. his portrait was gone - after a flaming boulder dropped on him in Saradush. But I could be misremembering and he was simply dropped in one shot.

[Winthur]

I think I once had Haer'Dalis disintegrated - i.e. his portrait was gone - after a flaming boulder dropped on him in Saradush.

Seems to work as intended

[Cespenar]

Eh, he's a Blade, making him a pretty good Hero of Might & Magic (Blade is pretty much the best Bard kit), about the only problem he has being his low CON, but you can alleviate it by having someone else tank and only enter with Haer'dalis after the initiation. Plus when Haer'dalis has Tenser's Transformation then he really puts on the hurt. Actually, just Improved Invisibility or Mirror Image serves well for making him survive. Also, isn't there a belt to improve his CON anyway? He also starts off with decent weapons and has ** in Long and Short Swords (unattainable for another bard), which is a nice perk.

The thing is, every way you can boost him only serves to alleviate his weak points, while doing those same stuff to a real melee-ist makes them a beast in the front lines.

[arguskos]

Haer'dalis is an awesome character. Pity that he sucks so much in combat.

He's not so much bad in combat as he is a finesse character. Ya can't just rush in there with him, you've got to use the spins he has strategically and make sure he's not drawing their fire. If he starts drawing aggro, get him the hell outta there or you'll be down a man.

Haer'Dalise is interesting to play with, since he's a pretty different combat style from almost anyone else. The rogue characters (Charname included) want to backstab as much as possible, but he can't do that. The fighters want to tank like champs, and he can't do that (even with the Con belt, since he just doesn't have enough life or enough armor options to really soak hits). He lacks the spell depth to mage it up (until reaaaaaally high levels, anyways). He comes with two points in Short Swords, as I recall, meaning he has a very strange weapon selection. He's so different from everyone else that I feel he doesn't get much love.

I <3 Haer'Dalis, and I'm proud to say it. Sadly, I can't take him with when I romance Aerie.

Think of him like a skirmisher, not a front-liner, and that'll help your performance with him.

[mangosta71]

Actually, mangosta said "or."

There is a common, incorrect belief that Charisma in some way (non-mod) influences NPC conflicts. It does not, though it can keep characters in the party when they would otherwise leave due to Reputation.

I didn't say that you can keep them from arguing. You can definitely keep them from leaving, and I'm pretty sure you can keep them from drawing steel and going to town on each other, even without mods.

[Calemyr]

He's not so much bad in combat as he is a finesse character. Ya can't just rush in there with him, you've got to use the spins he has strategically and make sure he's not drawing their fire. If he starts drawing aggro, get him the hell outta there or you'll be down a man.

Haer'Dalise is interesting to play with, since he's a pretty different combat style from almost anyone else. The rogue characters (Charname included) want to backstab as much as possible, but he can't do that. The fighters want to tank like champs, and he can't do that (even with the Con belt, since he just doesn't have enough life or enough armor options to really soak hits). He lacks the spell depth to mage it up (until reaaaaaally high levels, anyways). He comes with two points in Short Swords, as I recall, meaning he has a very strange weapon selection. He's so different from everyone else that I feel he doesn't get much love.

I <3 Haer'Dalis, and I'm proud to say it. Sadly, I can't take him with when I romance Aerie.

Think of him like a skirmisher, not a front-liner, and that'll help your performance with him.

You can have 'em both if you've already established your relationship with Aerie beforehand. You just can't grab Dirty Haer'y immediately.

[arguskos]

You can have 'em both if you've already established your relationship with Aerie beforehand. You just can't grab Dirty Haer'y immediately.

Eh, it takes so long to get relationships settled and I like to have a solid party early that while it's technically possible, I rarely take that course. Good reminder though, it's been too long since I've played through BG2.

[Cespenar]

He's not so much bad in combat as he is a finesse character. Ya can't just rush in there with him, you've got to use the spins he has strategically and make sure he's not drawing their fire. If he starts drawing aggro, get him the hell outta there or you'll be down a man.

Haer'Dalise is interesting to play with, since he's a pretty different combat style from almost anyone else. The rogue characters (Charname included) want to backstab as much as possible, but he can't do that. The fighters want to tank like champs, and he can't do that (even with the Con belt, since he just doesn't have enough life or enough armor options to really soak hits). He lacks the spell depth to mage it up (until reaaaaaally high levels, anyways). He comes with two points in Short Swords, as I recall, meaning he has a very strange weapon selection. He's so different from everyone else that I feel he doesn't get much love.

I <3 Haer'Dalis, and I'm proud to say it. Sadly, I can't take him with when I romance Aerie.

Think of him like a skirmisher, not a front-liner, and that'll help your performance with him.

I agree with you, but I already know of how to make use of Haer'dalis in combat. I've finished the game with and without him. It's just that even with all those tactics, he is inferior to almost any other character in combat.

[arguskos]

I agree with you, but I already know of how to make use of Haer'dalis in combat. I've finished the game with and without him. It's just that even with all those tactics, he is inferior to almost any other character in combat.

Nah, not in my experience. He can hit surprisingly hard, thanks to Offensive Spin and some decent gear.

I mean, Jan always suffers in combat (not casting, but combat). Crossbows are simply so terrible it makes me cry (the exception is, of course, Firetooth). Haer'Dalis is faaaaaar superior to Jan when it comes to fightin'. Of course, the gnome is a vastly better caster, but who's surprised by that one?

[Cespenar]

Nah, not in my experience. He can hit surprisingly hard, thanks to Offensive Spin and some decent gear.

I mean, Jan always suffers in combat (not casting, but combat). Crossbows are simply so terrible it makes me cry (the exception is, of course, Firetooth). Haer'Dalis is faaaaaar superior to Jan when it comes to fightin'. Of course, the gnome is a vastly better caster, but who's surprised by that one?

Combat includes casting, you know. That's like saying Edwin sucks in combat because he can't deal good damage with his sling. Jan's schtick is casting, crossbows are only his last resort.

I'd easily put Haer'dalis in the last five (and I'm being generous) in general combat contribution.

You have to understand. I'm not saying that he can't contribute. I'm saying "in comparison".

[Winthur]

Combat includes casting, you know. That's like saying Edwin sucks in combat because he can't deal good damage with his sling. Jan's schtick is casting, crossbows are only his last resort.

I'd easily put Haer'dalis in the last five (and I'm being generous) in general combat contribution.

Well, Jan is a multi-class mage whose class restriction doesn't allow him to cast Horrid Wilting which always makes me think of him as a meh choice for a primary spellcaster.

What I like about Haerry is how well he can make use of the spells that are self-cast only. Stone Skin + Tenser's + Protection from Magic Weapons + Offensive Spin? Yes please. He's like a lite Fighter/Magic/Thief with much lower XP requirements.

Oh sure, he will never be as strong as a CHARNAME Blade, but he fits the bill for the "Swordsage" character.

Also, Jesters are overpowered. At least in aPack. Or even without it. I once played a multiplayer game where I just felt like supporting with Jester. I love Death Spell for the massive amounts of souls flying to the air when you cast it on some mobs (particularly Umber Hulks) and here I just had to turn my song on and just stun/confuse/whatever a ton of mobs.

[Zombimode]

I'd easily put Haer'dalis in the last five (and I'm being generous) in general combat contribution.

Haer'dalis' combat strength makes a quantum leap when he get epic abilities. Since bards belong to the "rogue" subtype of classes, he gets spiked traps. You don't know whats funny if you haven't seen Amelyssan getting killed by spiked traps the instant she spawns three times in a row.
And since Bards tend to level really fast, he gets a TON of spiked traps.

[Cespenar]

Haer'dalis' combat strength makes a quantum leap when he get epic abilities. Since bards belong to the "rogue" subtype of classes, he gets spiked traps. You don't know whats funny if you haven't seen Amelyssan getting killed by spiked traps the instant she spawns three times in a row.
And since Bards tend to level really fast, he gets a TON of spiked traps.

Everyone becomes awesome with high level abilities anyway. Rogues get Use Any Item. Fighters get Whirlwind Attack, and mages get Planetar, Alacrity, etc. Moot point.

Not to mention spamming traps at spawn points is pretty much an exploit anyway, and a non-argument.

[Zombimode]

Nah, it's not more of an exploit as is pre-buffing. It's just that Spiked Traps are so ridiculously good that using them is considered cheap. Non-epic traps and the other two epic traps don't have this impact.

Also, what is an exploit/cheap tactic depends on the environment. If I play vanilla BG2/BGT, then yes, I don't use Spiked Traps.
But if I'm using the merciless Sword Coast Stratagems I/II then I need to use every trick and tactic available to me in order to win. If your not familiar with SCS: its a difficulty modification that consist about at least 90% of AI-modifications. So in contrast to other difficulty mods, which for the most part just inflate the numbers of certain enemies and thus creating a rather "fake" and unbalanced difficulty, SCS just puts the enemies on a more equal footing with the player-controlled party.

[Cespenar]

Nah, it's not more of an exploit as is pre-buffing. It's just that Spiked Traps are so ridiculously good that using them is considered cheap. Non-epic traps and the other two epic traps don't have this impact.

Also, what is an exploit/cheap tactic depends on the environment. If I play vanilla BG2/BGT, then yes, I don't use Spiked Traps.
But if I'm using the merciless Sword Coast Stratagems I/II then I need to use every trick and tactic available to me in order to win. If your not familiar with SCS: its a difficulty modification that consist about at least 90% of AI-modifications. So in contrast to other difficulty mods, which for the most part just inflate the numbers of certain enemies and thus creating a rather "fake" and unbalanced difficulty, SCS just puts the enemies on a more equal footing with the player-controlled party.

Putting a trap or two around where you think enemies will come is not cheap. Spamming 20 traps under where you know Kangaxx/Amelissan/what-have-you will spawn is the very definition of cheap.

Besides, I fail to see the point resorting to such exploits when you yourself said that a mod like SCS doesn't employ fake difficulty.

Anyway, returning to the Haer'dalis subject (serious business and all ), I think it would be a rather smoother understanding if I'd simply asked people to sort the characters according to their combat contribution, but that would take too long.

[Archonic Energy]

Aye aye.

you have shineys?

[Scarlet-Devil]

I'm going to have to agree with most people here about the "Enchanced Edition". Sure, it sounds very nice but they've been very stingy with actual information about how it's going to look like. If it's good, I might renew my efforts to create a duelist-style Fighter kit.

Isn't Swashbuckler basically a "duelist-style fighter"? That's certainly how I tend to think of it.

But yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. Especially since they're raising the experience cap and adding new content to explore. I never did every single dungeon in my earlier play-through anyway.

[Morty]

Not really. It's a Thief that can fight better than a normal one in exchange for no backstabs, but still a Thief.

[Winthur]

Not really. It's a Thief that can fight better than a normal one in exchange for no backstabs, but still a Thief.

A Thief that goes -25 AC in late game and thus out-tanks every other character in the game while having fighting prowess of a frontliner class...

Doesn't Kensai work for a duelist-style kit?

If not Kensai, then maybe Morituri?

[Scarlet-Devil]

Not really. It's a Thief that can fight better than a normal one in exchange for no backstabs, but still a Thief.

A swashbuckler is basically a lightly armored warrior with an increasing AC. What would you do differently to make a 'duelist' type?

[ThiagoMartell]

Morituri is not official, though.

[Morty]

A Thief that goes -25 AC in late game and thus out-tanks every other character in the game while having fighting prowess of a frontliner class...

Doesn't Kensai work for a duelist-style kit?

If not Kensai, then maybe Morituri?

A swashbuckler is basically a lightly armored warrior with an increasing AC. What would you do differently to make a 'duelist' type?

Yes, in the finale, with twinking, the Swashbuckler's AC can get sky-high. But on the lower levels, he's still got a Thief's hit points and doesn't get additional attacks. I would know, I played a Swashbuckler from BG2 to the end.
As for my kit... I've been thinking about restricting its access to armor and possibly ranged weapons while giving it access to the Blade's stances. Not sure how balanced it would be - it would require playtesting and tweaking, obviously. I don't like Kensai because he's just too much of a glass cannon.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Yes, in the finale, with twinking, the Swashbuckler's AC can get sky-high. But on the lower levels, he's still got a Thief's hit points and doesn't get additional attacks. I would know, I played a Swashbuckler from BG2 to the end.
As for my kit... I've been thinking about restricting its access to armor and possibly ranged weapons while giving it access to the Blade's stances. Not sure how balanced it would be - it would require playtesting and tweaking, obviously. I don't like Kensai because he's just too much of a glass cannon.

Everyone probably has a slightly different image of the 'duelist' archetype, but to me the hit points don't matter much; the duelist is sort've a fragile speedster who avoids hits rather than 'taking' them. I also don't imagine a duelist as making lots of attacks, partly because thrusting swords have a tendency to get stuck in the enemy.

I like the idea of the stances though, especially the defensive one.

[Morty]

I suppose "Duelist" might not have been the best choice of a word. What I want to make is a lightly armoured, nimble warrior who is nonetheless still a fighter rather than a thief and who can use all the melee weapons fighters can.

[mangosta71]

Step 1: Start at level 1 as a kensai.
Step 2: Dual class to thief at mid level (probably during chapter 2 of SoA so you have enough content to level up enough to regain your kensai stuff before you go to Spellhold).
Step 3: Use any item.

[Morty]

So I can get to wear armor at the end of Shadows of Amn? Sorry, but no. Is it so hard to accept I want to craft a kit tailored to my preferences?

[ThiagoMartell]

So I can get to wear armor at the end of Shadows of Amn? Sorry, but no. Is it so hard to accept I want to craft a kit tailored to my preferences?

I don't think anyone is stopping you from doing so. You can't stop people from disagreeing with you, though.

[Mordokai]

Morituri is not official, though.

Are we talking about the kit that molds monk and barbarian(and maybe even paladin) in one class and calls it balanced? If that's the one, thanks god it's not official.

Seriously, I don't remember what excatly it's about and I'm too lazy to search for it. But I remember seeing the kit when I started playing BG and I remember it folded three classes into one. It was a sick class and not in a good way.

[Divayth Fyr]

It's not just that, it's even worse

Spoiler

Show

Advantages:
-Immune to backstab, +1 to str/dex/con on character creation.
-Movement speed, armour class and saving throws improvements according to combat experience.*
-Gains Armor of Light ability according to his/her combat experience.**
-Gains Heaven's Touch by becoming the LightBringer ***
-Bonus +1 to hit/damage for every 3 levels.
-Bonus -1 to speed factor for every 4 levels.
-Physical, elemental and magic resistance improvements per level.****

-Apprentice: immune to all diseases,and cannot be slowed or hasted.*****
-Expert: Immune to charm and poison.
-Spartian: Immune to fear.
-Morituri: Permanent protection from evil, +1 str/dex/con bonus, regenerate 1hp/sec.
-LightBringer: Immune to stun & blindness, +1 bonus attack per round, +1 str/dex/con bonus,regenerate 2hp/sec.

Disadvantages:
-May not use missile weapons or bows.
-May not use any magic items except weapons and boots.
-May become proficient up to grand mastery only with weapons that comply with the Way of the Sword.
-Cannot stray away from the teachings of the Order.
-Must be of good alignment.
-Humans only.

*-2AC, -2 movement speed, -2 saving throws every 7 levels (saving throws max out at -8 in the Morituri level).
** A combination of Kai and Berserker enrage Armour of Light provides maximum damage for the first 6 seconds plus +2 to hit/damage, -2 to Armour Class, , immunity to death magic,charm,hold,fear,maze,imprisonment,stun,sleep ,level drain,+15 hit points, +4 movement modifier,-2 attack speed for 60 seconds. After that the Morituri becomes fatigued for 30 seconds: -4 to hit/damage, +4 penalty to AC, -15 hit points, -8 movement modifier,+4 attack speed.
*** Heaven's Touch: a combination of Mass Cure, Sunray, Nature's Beauty, Wing Buffet and Protection from Evil 10' radius spells inspired by Solafein's Moonrays and Moonfruit's Improved House Je'elat battle.
**** Resistance to missile,crushing,piercing,slashing,fire,cold,acid, electricity 1% per level + resistance to magic 2% per level up to level 39.
***** Apprentice: level 7, Expert: level 14, Spartian: level 21, Morituri: level 28, LightBringer: level 35.