Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

[Azaran]

I must correct myself: Durlags Tower did work in its Totsc. You could really see that the dwarf went nuts and rebuild his clan tower as a deadly roadside attraction. The deeper you got the more it changed from residential rooms to giant deadtrap.
In my opinion the Watchers Keep had a similiar cool idea:
The outside and the first rooms just looked like a plain big tower keep. But if you got closer to the imprisoned Demon prince the rooms get more warped.
It seemed the inner structures did not exist in the same reality or plane like the outer tower. On your journey through the rooms you coul meet all kind of planar creatures, some of them even friendly but all with their own agenda.
Interesting idea but some maps looked rather uninspired or had strange sci-fi elements like the stargates in it.

@cnsvnc:

What kind of freakin' multiclass gave you cleric spells, druid spells and arcane spells in plate mail? The statue thing was just test of endurance.
I think Sendai's spellcasting could be a Ascension mod thing. This mod gave major boosts to some of the enemies. (Btw: Why do i want a tougher Demogorgon? The last time he murdered me just fine...)

[Winthur]

Edwin is unique (like Sarevok) in that he's a better mage than you'll ever be on account of getting more spells than mages are allowed to. Also there's Cernd and he's a shapeshifter druid but he's an ******* and I never really used him beyond druid grove and his personal quest.

Questionable:
1: He's not a Sorcerer
2: He can't wear the Amulet of Power that gives you -1 casting spell time (which means your mage with Vekna and AoP will always cast faster than Edwin) and protection from Silence.
3: This is a moot point because you don't do mage duels anyway and you usually have a Cleric who has all these spells but a Summoner (that Edwin is) with no Divination spells wouldn't have a fun time against, say, Improved Invisibility.

I used the Shapeshifter kit on my main once. Apparently it's messed up but there's a mod which restores it. Then there's another rom which makes it way stronger. I used the latter.

Shapeshifter is kind of a sad case because without Ease of Use (the mod that makes him way stronger) he is kinda bad and with Ease of Use he becomes broken. No middle ground.

[Starsign]

Questionable:
1: He's not a Sorcerer
2: He can't wear the Amulet of Power that gives you -1 casting spell time (which means your mage with Vekna and AoP will always cast faster than Edwin) and protection from Silence.
3: This is a moot point because you don't do mage duels anyway and you usually have a Cleric who has all these spells but a Summoner (that Edwin is) with no Divination spells wouldn't have a fun time against, say, Improved Invisibility.

Sorcerer is actually better than a Wizard/Mage in BG II? Could you explain that to me please, I wasn't quite aware of that.

Shapeshifter is kind of a sad case because without Ease of Use (the mod that makes him way stronger) he is kinda bad and with Ease of Use he becomes broken. No middle ground.

Funny, I found Shapeshifter just fine, though a little experimental in use. Best strategy I found was to buff spells on my character then have him transform and slice apart foes with his claws.

Can I guess Ease of Use, among other things, gives the Shapeshifter the ability to cast spells while transformed? That alone I'm sure would skyrocket his usefulness to something only matched by a Kensai/Mage Dual Class (or was it Multiclass?)

[danzibr]

Yeah, Ease Of Use made it broken. I liked it :P

I have a concern with the Shapeshifter kit in BGEE. It seems way good at level 1, then gets less and less useful. Then you get a power jump at 13 iirc which you may never hit. It's be nice to have something which gets just a bit better every level. Mod anyone?

[Morty]

A lot of BG2 kits are potentially problematic in BG1, I think. They were written with BG2 in mind, so they're sometimes too powerful in BG1's low level play.

[Squark]

To be fair, Sorcerors generally wanted a second mage like Imoen or Jan in the party to handle the utility they give up for raw blasting power. If you yourself are not playing a Sorceror (and haven't added a third party sorceror), Edwin is by far the best arcanist available to you.

On sorceror power: Basically, for blasting and dispelling, you really only want a few key spells- And for that, the Sorceror Excels

[Starsign]

To be fair, Sorcerors generally wanted a second mage like Imoen or Jan in the party to handle the utility they give up for raw blasting power. If you yourself are not playing a Sorceror (and haven't added a third party sorceror), Edwin is by far the best arcanist available to you.

On sorceror power: Basically, for blasting and dispelling, you really only want a few key spells- And for that, the Sorceror Excels

I've never actually touched a Sorcerer before, so I'm unsure of the difference. Is it something like how a Wizard and Sorcerer differs in 3.5e or is the dynamic between a Sorcerer and Mage in AD&D 2e very different than what it was in later editions?

[Morty]

My fist BG2 playthrough was a Human Sorcerer. But it's been so long ago I honestly don't remember whether he was more effective than a Mage would be.

[Azaran]

The differnce between Mages and Sorcerers is the same as in 3.5 Ed.
Sorcerers: Limited spell selection per level, more uses
Mages: bigger spell pool, fewer actual slots

Keep in mind that sorcerers in BG2 have intelligence for the governing attribute, not charisma.

[Squark]

Actually... Intelligence does nothing for the sorcerer apart from affecting Wish choices- Which, granted, is pretty darn important

Sorcerers are basically identical to their 3rd edition counterpart. The thing is, because of the nature of BG2's combat focus, you only really need a mix of defensive, offensive, and dispelling spells, and you can generally fill that role with just the sorceror's spell selection.

[Trixie]

So, it is out already...?

[The Glyphstone]

5 days. It's available for preloading if you ordered it ahead of time.

[Trixie]

Ah, thanks.

I've never actually touched a Sorcerer before, so I'm unsure of the difference. Is it something like how a Wizard and Sorcerer differs in 3.5e or is the dynamic between a Sorcerer and Mage in AD&D 2e very different than what it was in later editions?

A) No human DM you can try to push your broken interpretation of spells to; B) All spells allowing you to break them were deleted; C) Ditto for any free form spells; D) Which means pool of spells is much narrower, good spells each level easy to identify, evocation often has best spells, spell spamming wins encounters, re-casting all spells being tedious, all of this being Sorcerer's strengths.

And to be fair, most Sorcerer << Wizard in 3.5 is BS assuming Wizard is actually Schrödinger's Wizard, always having 24 hours to prepare with spell reshuffle, and all the right spells, no matter what the actual time constrains of adventure are.

[Seharvepernfan]

And to be fair, most Sorcerer << Wizard in 3.5 is BS assuming Wizard is actually Schrödinger's Wizard, always having 24 hours to prepare with spell reshuffle, and all the right spells, no matter what the actual time constrains of adventure are.

Shhhhhh!!!

They might hear you!!!

[The Glyphstone]

Cmon guys, can we please keep the class balance/tier/whatever discussions in the subforum where they actually belong?

[Starbuck_II]

Ah, thanks.


And to be fair, most Sorcerer << Wizard in 3.5 is BS assuming Wizard is actually Schrödinger's Wizard, always having 24 hours to prepare with spell reshuffle, and all the right spells, no matter what the actual time constrains of adventure are.

Nah, Wild Mage is where it is at.
Sorcerers advantage is spontanous cast (not prepared), but wild mage can do that (risking a surge) with a 1st level spell. Heck, he can cast 9th level spells with that 1st spell (bigger chance to surge though).
Okay, yes the surges can suck if you are unlucky...but that is why reset and load come in.

Granted, I've never used a Sorcerer in BG 2, I should do that sometime I guess.
For NPC mods Mindflayers are fun companions: there are two mods I know of (one is a caster, other a warrior Mind flayer)

[Hjolnai]

Nah, Wild Mage is where it is at.
Sorcerers advantage is spontanous cast (not prepared), but wild mage can do that (risking a surge) with a 1st level spell. Heck, he can cast 9th level spells with that 1st spell (bigger chance to surge though).
Okay, yes the surges can suck if you are unlucky...but that is why reset and load come in.

Yes, wild mages are my favourite class UNLESS trying to no-reload run. In that case they're a severe liability, but it might be interesting trying to get through with the minimum personal spellcasting (and hence risk). Then you'd want to cast spells which have maximum effect for least number, so no contingencies or triggers. Also, be sure to protect self from the most dangerous wild surges, like fire (Explosion!), petrification, polymorph and a falling cow.

On the topic of wild surges, I once had a particularly amusing one.
In the Irenicus fight, cast time stop:
"Wild surge: Area Effect".
The effect of that was: Every creature nearby effectively cast timestop in turn, if it was alive to have that happen. A demon had a turn and quickly cleaned up most of my party - we didn't get out alive.

[Triaxx]

The cow is pretty hilarious. I've killed Irenicus with that once.

I tended to play pretty exclusively Sorceror for a long time, because then I don't have to go hunting spells. I level up and have them just come to me. Of course I absolutely wanted to go do Nalia's Quest right away so I could grab the Find Familiar scroll. I love having the scout cat. Not much in SoA can see a critter with 75% stealth and even less can see the ToB version with 99%.

For actual usefulness, I rarely found that there was anything the wizard could do that I couldn't duplicate with a scroll case and some scouting, plus I can keep blasting long after the wizard is unable to control anything but his own bowels.

[Winthur]

Sorcerer is actually better than a Wizard/Mage in BG II? Could you explain that to me please, I wasn't quite aware of that.

As far as most people's playstyles are concerned, there isn't enough "utility" for a Mage to choose from to really outstrip Sorcerer's ability to spam a ton of spells. You can have a Sorcerer with numerous Exploding Skulls and Webs and Glitterdusts or you can have a Mage with pretty much one of each. Basically it comes down to the fact that there are a few core spells in the game while the rest are either not very good or situational (Death Spell, for instance, is very fun to use and is great against certain enemies such as Umber Hulks or in the Umar Hills questline, but as you can imagine it falls off rather soon after getting it). That, and most parties also run a Cleric. What good is it if your Mage can memorize, say, True Seeing for a section with invisible enemies when your Cleric can do that as well? What about +Resistance spells? Dispel Magic? Some crowd control spells fall into the same vein. A Mage usually runs out of spells faster than a Sorcerer (and thus, out of combat usefulness) and has to rest more often.

Baldur's Gate, due to it being rather combat-heavy, really plays down on the Mage's utility. It's kinda like in Fallout, you can tag Small Guns, Big Guns and Energy Weapons, but what's the point other than playing around with the arsenal when your Turbo Plasma Rifle, Gauss Rifle or Bozar will do the job just as well? Or you can tag Throwing for the EMP grenades to have an easy fight against, I dunno, a few choice encounters against robots in this game?

[ThiagoMartell]

Man, can't wait for the 28th to arrive. I'm in doubt about what I should play... a Stalker, a Blade, an Assassin or a Shapeshifter? Thought about goind Human, starting as an Assassin or Shapeshifter and dual-classing into Fighter but it sounds sucky.

[Kish]

Sorcerer is actually better than a Wizard/Mage in BG II? Could you explain that to me please, I wasn't quite aware of that.

You cast the same five or fewer spells of each level all the time, and very rarely use a lot of the spells.

So you have a choice of a spellcaster who can can learn all the spells, needs to find scrolls to do so, has to choose spells to prepare at rest, and can cast fewer spells per rest-period...

...or a spellcaster who can only learn five spells of each level, can choose from any spells in the game for those spells ("Oh, you didn't find a scroll of Mordenkainen's Sword? Sucks to be you, wizard"), chooses spells at the time of casting, can cast more spells per rest period, and can use scrolls on the once-in-a-blue-moon occasion that you actually want to cast Cone of Cold...or the once-in-a-lifetime occasion that you want to cast Find Familiar.

Gee, I wonder which is better.

[danzibr]

Man, can't wait for the 28th to arrive. I'm in doubt about what I should play... a Stalker, a Blade, an Assassin or a Shapeshifter? Thought about goind Human, starting as an Assassin or Shapeshifter and dual-classing into Fighter but it sounds sucky.

Not to derail the sorc-wizard debate, but I have this problem too. I had decided on wizard/cleric but I'm back to flip flopping like a pancake. It really depends on if the NPCs got kits or not. Maybe I'll make 3 characters and fill up the other 3 slots with NPCs.

[Johnny Blade]

I'd say that if you'd only include a single arcane caster in the party, an Illusionist or Diviner would probably be best. No risk of surges, no limited pool of spells known or delayed progression that the Sorcerer has to deal with, and they don't lose any utility spells I'd call vital.

This may in part be due to me always playing Trilogy with Sword Coast Stratagems installed. You kind of want more reliable ways to get rid of protections than Dispel/Remove Magic, but a Sorcerer doesn't really want to learn anything like that before Breach. And Detect Invisibility is a must have for me. Even now that I'm playing an Inquisitor it occupies one of Quayle's spell slots, just in case.

If you have a second mage, though, Sorcerers are great. And I think at least in BG2, most people have one, even if it's just Aerie or Jan.

Nah, Wild Mage is where it is at.
Sorcerers advantage is spontanous cast (not prepared), but wild mage can do that (risking a surge) with a 1st level spell. Heck, he can cast 9th level spells with that 1st spell (bigger chance to surge though).
Okay, yes the surges can suck if you are unlucky...but that is why reset and load come in.

So, what you're saying is high risk, high reward play gets better if you quicksave/-load the risk away?


(Wild Mages are strong without abusing them. +1 spell/level in exchange for a 5% miscast chance? I'll take that.)

[Winthur]

I'd say that if you'd only include a single arcane caster in the party, an Illusionist or Diviner would probably be best.

I've seen an Ascension playthrough come to a screeching halt right during the final battle because the mage was Jan, an Illusionist. No Skull Traps is sad, but workable (Fireball is pretty much a Skull Trap); no Horrid Wilting is painful. Diviners lose Conjuration, which doesn't sting much at early levels (Melf and Flame Arrow are useful against trolls and are decent single target nukes, but ehhh), but then you lose out on Nishruu, Hakeashar, Invisible Stalker, Gate and Power Word Kill... which are all good, not extremely important (I'd hate to lose the Stalker, I guess), but pretty decent. I'd rather actually run an Evoker (though not in BG1 where they lose two schools instead of one for no reason) or Conjurer (loses out on Divinities, of which you only really care for True Seeing, in my experience, and Cleric has that).

This may in part be due to me always playing Trilogy with Sword Coast Stratagems installed. You kind of want more reliable ways to get rid of protections than Dispel/Remove Magic, but a Sorcerer doesn't really want to learn anything like that before Breach. And Detect Invisibility is a must have for me. Even now that I'm playing an Inquisitor it occupies one of Quayle's spell slots, just in case.

Um, what spells do you put on your Cleric?

[danzibr]

Man I wanna know what these 400+ little changes are. Like does the Shapeshifter do what it's supposed to? Does grand mastery? I need to know these things when I make my party.

[ThiagoMartell]

Man I wanna know what these 400+ little changes are. Like does the Shapeshifter do what it's supposed to? Does grand mastery? I need to know these things when I make my party.

Some of these are in the manual. Grand Mastery is back to being badass.

[Morty]

Class Kits appear unchanged, though. Wizard Slayer and Beastmaster as as awful as ever.

[danzibr]

Some of these are in the manual. Grand Mastery is back to being badass.

Sweet. I'll look at that again.

Class Kits appear unchanged, though. Wizard Slayer and Beastmaster as as awful as ever.

Unchanged as in... no bug fixes too? I consider the Shapeshifter nerfs a bug. I mean, it says you get something, you actually get something else.

Oh right. Anyone plan on modding this game from the start? Or a vanilla playthrough first?

[ThiagoMartell]

I remember reading somewhere in the forums that NPCs won't get kits or revamps of any form.

[Morty]

Unchanged as in... no bug fixes too? I consider the Shapeshifter nerfs a bug. I mean, it says you get something, you actually get something else.

No idea. I just read the manual.

Oh right. Anyone plan on modding this game from the start? Or a vanilla playthrough first?

I plan on making a Fighter kit, if Weidu works with the Enchanced Edition.