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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I dunno, something in the shopkeeper logic "Ah, this man is known to bite the heads off babies for smiling at him, I can get away with charging him extra!" doesn't work for me.
    I think it's more that you get a high reputation for helping people, so shopkeepers don't mind giving you items at a discount. At lower reputations (but not low enough that the Flaming Fist are constantly attacking you), they don't have any reason to do you any favors.

    Besides which, if a shopkeeper is overcharging you, the Evil thing to do would be to steal what you need anyway. ;)

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    I think it's more that you get a high reputation for helping people, so shopkeepers don't mind giving you items at a discount. At lower reputations (but not low enough that the Flaming Fist are constantly attacking you), they don't have any reason to do you any favors.

    Besides which, if a shopkeeper is overcharging you, the Evil thing to do would be to steal what you need anyway. ;)
    Also, with low reputation, you might be paying them a bribe so they won't set the guards on you, a known criminal.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Also, with low reputation, you might be paying them a bribe so they won't set the guards on you, a known criminal.
    Ooh, that's good. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    An important thing to do here is to delink rep and store prices, having roleplaying options which are actively punished by gameplay mechanics is not a clever or useful design (and Bioware have never really gotten their heads around that, witness the inevitable lack of recognition of neutrality or, in fact, anything but absolute extremes on whatever spurious moral axis they're using today).
    The fact that there hasn't been a BioWare game where not falling into moral extremes isn't punished is a topic for another discussion entirely, yes. There is, however, a mod that makes Neutral characters approve of neutral Reputation. The lines are spoken by the original voice actors, even.
    While having to pay more when your rep is low is stupid and nonsensical, it didn't really bother me. You get a lot of money anyway and plenty of the best items are found. So it's not that much of a problem. So long as they let me have a low or neutral reputation without jumping through hoops or paying gold to modded-in bards.
    Last edited by Morty; 2012-07-28 at 08:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    While having to pay more when your rep is low is stupid and nonsensical, (...)
    I really don't think it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    I think it's more that you get a high reputation for helping people, so shopkeepers don't mind giving you items at a discount. At lower reputations (but not low enough that the Flaming Fist are constantly attacking you), they don't have any reason to do you any favors.

    Besides which, if a shopkeeper is overcharging you, the Evil thing to do would be to steal what you need anyway. ;)
    This is the official version. IIRC, the manual even mentions it as 'the hero discount'. If that is not enough for you...
    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Also, with low reputation, you might be paying them a bribe so they won't set the guards on you, a known criminal.
    Not liking something is one thing. Calling it stupid and nonsensical... that's a very different thing.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    I know this is the official reason. I just don't think it's a good one. I also think that if it's easier to be good than bad, someone got something backwards.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I know this is the official reason. I just don't think it's a good one. I also think that if it's easier to be good than bad, someone got something backwards.
    I don't know, genre conventions are always slanted against the villain anyway - succeeding as an evil protagonist in "Baldur's Gate" is more about tenacity than popularity. :)

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    To be honest the reputation system just isn't very good anyway. Especially since there really isn't all that much of a moral choice system in place in the games.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I know this is the official reason. I just don't think it's a good one. I also think that if it's easier to be good than bad, someone got something backwards.
    The game is encouraging you to be good. Why is that a bad thing? You can still be evil if you want to, with a small cost to pay for that. Most games don't even give you that choice.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    The game is encouraging you to be good. Why is that a bad thing? You can still be evil if you want to, with a small cost to pay for that. Most games don't even give you that choice.
    I agree. I don't know wy people find it so weird that evil characters get treated differently in game. If you're a jerk, people won't like you as much as if you're a nice guy. Seems pretty simple to me, but I've never really had a great desire to play evil for the sake of being evil.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbitkniver View Post
    I agree. I don't know wy people find it so weird that evil characters get treated differently in game. If you're a jerk, people won't like you as much as if you're a nice guy. Seems pretty simple to me, but I've never really had a great desire to play evil for the sake of being evil.
    It's quite the contrary, I like playing moderately good characters, but it's pretty much given, easy and uninteresting most of the time, getting 'good' is easy and rewarding.

    Should be some challenge and sacrifice instead...

    Being evil powerful character should be quite easy - you take what you want, steal and lie without feeling guilt, manipulate and use people... For whatever gain you want. Preferably by politics, it's most efficient.

    Being "nice" or "jerk" doesn't really have much to do with being good or evil.


    The game is encouraging you to be good. Why is that a bad thing? You can still be evil if you want to, with a small cost to pay for that. Most games don't even give you that choice.
    Small cost would be more appropriate for being very good and selfless instead. Would feel much more natural.
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2012-07-28 at 10:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Absolutely. It could easily be like the Assassin kit - very powerful, but only available to evil people.
    Contrary to persistent Internet rumors, the Assassin kit in BG2 has no kit-specific alignment restrictions.

    (That is, you can't be Lawful Good because thieves can't; you can be any of the other eight alignments.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    Small cost would be more appropriate for being very good and selfless instead. Would feel much more natural.
    This is actually in Baldur's Gate. People just don't realize it because it doesn't get a fanfare.

    Several encounters--a group of Amnish adventurers, a self-proclaimed "legendary swordsman"--insult you but don't attack you. If you decide that insults are punishable by death (a distinctly evil decision, though one which doesn't impact your reputation) you get to loot them. If you don't you don't. There are multiple items you can only get that way; the Golden Girdle, the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise. There are also multiple items you only get by breaking into houses and murdering the homeowners: one of the two Rings of Wizardry in the game, the Helmet of Glory...
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-07-28 at 10:55 AM.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Well, the thing about BG's setup is that your character is motivated to participate in the story regardless of their alignment - if you're Good, their objective is to stop Sarevok, Irenicus and Melissan because they're a danger to the people of Faerun; if you're Evil, it's because every Bhaalspawn you kill puts you a step closer to godhood.

    That's actually something I think BioWare does right: you can roleplay different characters with different motivations, and it holds together. In "Dragon Age", if you're a sociopathic blood mage who hates everyone, your actions in the game are entirely self-motivated because the darkspawn are a threat to you too, and you might as well throw an army at them rather than risk your own life, etc.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post

    Several encounters--a group of Amnish adventurers, a self-proclaimed "legendary swordsman"--insult you but don't attack you. If you decide that insults are punishable by death (a distinctly evil decision, though one which doesn't impact your reputation) you get to loot them. If you don't you don't. There are multiple items you can only get that way; the Golden Girdle, the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise. There are also multiple items you only get by breaking into houses and murdering the homeowners: one of the two Rings of Wizardry in the game, the Helmet of Glory...
    Certainly, BG has a bit of this (armor from White Dragon and Human Skin also comes to mind), that's why it's a great game, but it even greater amount of easiness towards good, much more experience from most quests, lower prices, generally longer quests instead of ones ending in 'they're dead, hur".

    Generally most quests are some kind of dogoodery after all.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    armor from White Dragon and Human Skin also comes to mind
    IIRC, the White Dragon scales didn't require us to do anything (ie. they were in a treasure pile on the floor of a room in Watcher's Keep). Now, the Thieves Hood is a different beast...

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    So, going back to the original question because I'm curious about this too:

    Assuming you had a full party of six the last time you played BG1, which of the three new NPCs (Rasaad, Neera, Dorn il-Khan) are you most interested in recruiting, and who would you swap out in exchange?

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    If I play the Lawful Evil Fighter I had a while back - in regular BG1, without BGT - I'll swap Shar-Teel for Dorn. The original crew consisted of the Bhaalspawn, Kagain, Shar-Teel, Safana, Viconia (with Branwen filling in until I met her) and Edwin.
    Last edited by Morty; 2012-07-28 at 03:50 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    If I play the Lawful Evil Fighter I had a while back - in regular BG1, without BGT - I'll swap Shar-Teel for Dorn.
    My sentiments exactly. :) (Well, Neutral Evil Sorceress, but that just means I get a romance too! )

    Shar-Teel is useful on the front lines with the right equipment, but she doesn't seem to do anything in the plot - even with the restored-content mod, she's really only relevant to a single scene in the entire game. And given that she doesn't appear in BG2, whereas Dorn and the others apparently will... I think it's safe to set her aside.

    I'm confused about Neera, though - the manual says Wild Mages are basically random wizards; is that actually helpful in a serious fight as opposed to someone like Edwin or Dynaheir, who will at least cast the spell I tell them to cast?

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    I'm already wondering what class to pick for my PC. I've never played either game to any degree with a non-warrior, and I was wondering how that works out. I don't really relish the idea of playing someone who needs a good nights sleep after every fight in order to be useful, and I don't see how thieves are good for anything other than finding traps, opening locks and providing a bit of support in combat. But maybe I'm wrong.

    I'd love to hear from people's experiences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    I'm already wondering what class to pick for my PC. I've never played either game to any degree with a non-warrior, and I was wondering how that works out. I don't really relish the idea of playing someone who needs a good nights sleep after every fight in order to be useful, and I don't see how thieves are good for anything other than finding traps, opening locks and providing a bit of support in combat. But maybe I'm wrong.

    I'd love to hear from people's experiences.
    Well, you know that old saying about linear warriors and quadratic wizards? That absolutely applies here. :)

    Mages start out in a very weak position, not just physically but in terms of spell selection. You'll spend most of your initial fights positioning NPCs between you and the enemy. But as you level up, your spells will increase in both quantity and variety, and by the end of it you'll basically be able to manipulate the outcome of any battle.

    Mind you, that's just BG1. Once you start hitting the level 8-9 spells in BG2, you're pretty much unstoppable. With the right combination of debuffs and a lucky roll of the dice, you can kill dragons with a single spell, before your front-line fighters even have a chance to engage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    Shar-Teel is useful on the front lines with the right equipment, but she doesn't seem to do anything in the plot - even with the restored-content mod, she's really only relevant to a single scene in the entire game.
    In fairness, that's true of about half the NPCs in BG1. Possibly more.

    I'm confused about Neera, though - the manual says Wild Mages are basically random wizards; is that actually helpful in a serious fight as opposed to someone like Edwin or Dynaheir, who will at least cast the spell I tell them to cast?
    They're not completely random. Most of the time they cast spells with (IIRC) a 5% that a 'wild surge' occurs on casting, which is the random thing (which can be good, bad, or just weird). They also count as specialist mages (so gain +1 memorisation slot) without having to bar a school of magic. They have two unique spells which play off the surge mechanic, one of which can potentially let you cast higher level spells out of 1st level slots, assuming all goes well on the surge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    They're not completely random. Most of the time they cast spells with (IIRC) a 5% that a 'wild surge' occurs on casting, which is the random thing (which can be good, bad, or just weird). They also count as specialist mages (so gain +1 memorisation slot) without having to bar a school of magic. They have two unique spells which play off the surge mechanic, one of which can potentially let you cast higher level spells out of 1st level slots, assuming all goes well on the surge.
    Technically, 3 spells (though two are variants of the same thing). And with Greater Chaos Shield the Reckless Dweomer tends to work in your favor - if not by casting a 9th level spell from a 1st level slot, it does it with the beneficial surge effects. Though there is the chance something will go wrong... Still, it simply is fun to play with a Wild Mage - even if it forces you to reload sometimes (ie. my Wild Mage had an unfortunate surge in the Copper Coronet which made everyone inside hostile).

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    Quote Originally Posted by karpik777 View Post
    Still, it simply is fun to play with a Wild Mage - even if it forces you to reload sometimes (ie. my Wild Mage had an unfortunate surge in the Copper Coronet which made everyone inside hostile).
    Bah, real men don't reload their games when doing risky stuff. Save Melicamp, pickpocket, cast Wild Surge spells or use Jet and save right afterwards no matter what.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
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    Well, at that time I didn't consider casting a magic missile as risky stuff ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    Well, you know that old saying about linear warriors and quadratic wizards? That absolutely applies here. :)

    Mages start out in a very weak position, not just physically but in terms of spell selection. You'll spend most of your initial fights positioning NPCs between you and the enemy. But as you level up, your spells will increase in both quantity and variety, and by the end of it you'll basically be able to manipulate the outcome of any battle.

    Mind you, that's just BG1. Once you start hitting the level 8-9 spells in BG2, you're pretty much unstoppable. With the right combination of debuffs and a lucky roll of the dice, you can kill dragons with a single spell, before your front-line fighters even have a chance to engage.
    Well, in BG2 I often had Aerie, Imoen AND Nalia in the group. And while Magic Missile, AoE and such was useful I found myself mostly using mages for special circumstances. It seemed like anything I badly needed paralyzed or weakened would inevitably make the saves, and anything lesser could be chopped up easily enough by Jaheira and my monstrous PC. So it doesn't make me feel enthusiastic about a spellcaster PC. I'm only even considering it for the sake of variety.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Also, with low reputation, you might be paying them a bribe so they won't set the guards on you, a known criminal.
    On the other hand what they should be doing is giving me a special "keeping all their teeth, limbs, eyeballs, and other appendages" discount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Well, in BG2 I often had Aerie, Imoen AND Nalia in the group. And while Magic Missile, AoE and such was useful I found myself mostly using mages for special circumstances. It seemed like anything I badly needed paralyzed or weakened would inevitably make the saves, and anything lesser could be chopped up easily enough by Jaheira and my monstrous PC. So it doesn't make me feel enthusiastic about a spellcaster PC. I'm only even considering it for the sake of variety.
    I found two mages works well though. Specialise one into breaking down all the defences enemy mages put up so you can squash them properly, and the other one into 'splosions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    Mages start out in a very weak position, not just physically but in terms of spell selection.
    I'll say that two Sleep spells are all you really need to pull your weight, though.

    And there's no really good reason not to be a specialist mage of some kind to get your extra spell per level. Well, Diviner, Conjurer, Illusionist or Wild Mage, that is. The rest loses a bit too much to be really worth it, I think.


    You can also just start as something else and dual-class later, though. A couple of levels of Cleric won't hurt and give you some fun stuff to augment your mage spells later.
    Thief/Mage is fairly redundant, of course.
    Fighter/Mages can get crazy powerful, no matter what exactly you do, dual- or multi-class. In a Tutu or Trilogy game, you can even start your career as a Berserker. Few things can seriously threaten to kill a Berserker/Mage without first wearing him down for a good, long time in which they are subjected to a raving maniac flailing at them in a frenzy, madly screaming spells of immense power out of his foaming mouth, eyes aglow with blood lust and arcane energy.


    Anyway, since there was also something about Wild Mages. They are pretty cool. That extra spell slot makes them actually more forgiving than regular mages in my opinion. You do need a backup, though. Sometimes, that Breach or Detect Invisibility just has to hit right then and there, and even a 5% chance of screwing up is too much then.
    Plus, they're always fun, of course.



    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    My reading of it was actually to assume that you weren't going to be invited guest, but rather part of the entertainment and have to fight your way out...
    Well, I think it could go either way. Might be an invitation. Might be an invitation that's also rigged to teleport you upon reading.
    Last edited by Johnny Blade; 2012-07-28 at 09:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Well, in BG2 I often had Aerie, Imoen AND Nalia in the group. And while Magic Missile, AoE and such was useful I found myself mostly using mages for special circumstances. It seemed like anything I badly needed paralyzed or weakened would inevitably make the saves, and anything lesser could be chopped up easily enough by Jaheira and my monstrous PC. So it doesn't make me feel enthusiastic about a spellcaster PC. I'm only even considering it for the sake of variety.
    The problem with Imoen, Nalia and Aerie, though, is that they all have built-in limitations - they'll never progress as far as a spellcaster PC, especially if you start with BG1 and go all the way to the end with the same character. And by the time you reach enemies who can make saves, you'll have tools like Greater Malison and Lower Resistance which even the odds. I slapped Firkraag upside the head with a Finger of Death, it was marvelous. :)

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    dianakingston remined me of how killing dragons in BG2 is rewarding. They are tough cookies, specially when you first met them. When I saw the shadow dragon for the first time I was completely surprised. "I'm supposed to fight that?!"
    In comparison, Neverwinter Nights had the wimpiest dragons ever. Then again, NWN is a walk in the park anyway. Why am I talking about it?

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