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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Silver View Post
    In fairness, that's true of about half the NPCs in BG1. Possibly more.
    Quite true. :) Really, aside from Edwin, Viconia, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen, I'm hard-pressed to think of any BG1 NPCs who have a substantial presence in the later games...

    They're not completely random. Most of the time they cast spells with (IIRC) a 5% that a 'wild surge' occurs on casting, which is the random thing (which can be good, bad, or just weird). They also count as specialist mages (so gain +1 memorisation slot) without having to bar a school of magic. They have two unique spells which play off the surge mechanic, one of which can potentially let you cast higher level spells out of 1st level slots, assuming all goes well on the surge.
    So there's a chance the surge can happen any time you cast a spell, but it's possible to sway the odds in your favor? Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by karpik777 View Post
    Technically, 3 spells (though two are variants of the same thing). And with Greater Chaos Shield the Reckless Dweomer tends to work in your favor - if not by casting a 9th level spell from a 1st level slot, it does it with the beneficial surge effects. Though there is the chance something will go wrong... Still, it simply is fun to play with a Wild Mage - even if it forces you to reload sometimes (ie. my Wild Mage had an unfortunate surge in the Copper Coronet which made everyone inside hostile).
    It does sound like an interesting wild card - maybe I'll exchange Edwin for Neera (unless she tries to cast Magic Missile and turns herself into a chicken, who knows...) :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    dianakingston remined me of how killing dragons in BG2 is rewarding. They are tough cookies, specially when you first met them. When I saw the shadow dragon for the first time I was completely surprised. "I'm supposed to fight that?!"
    In comparison, Neverwinter Nights had the wimpiest dragons ever. Then again, NWN is a walk in the park anyway. Why am I talking about it?
    An apt comparison would be High Dragons in "Dragon Age: Origins". Those were not easy battles. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    An apt comparison would be High Dragons in "Dragon Age: Origins". Those were not easy battles. :)
    Oh, boy, I remember that.
    I also remember getting pissed because Anomen Allistair stole the final blow from my character when we attacked the witch's mother... and so Allistair was the one in the dragonslaying cinematic, not my main character.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Oh, boy, I remember that.
    I also remember getting pissed because Anomen Allistair stole the final blow from my character when we attacked the witch's mother... and so Allistair was the one in the dragonslaying cinematic, not my main character.
    That happened to me too (with the other High Dragon, the one in the mountains). I was romancing him at the time, so I figured "Eh, let him have this one." :)

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    That happened to me too (with the other High Dragon, the one in the mountains). I was romancing him at the time, so I figured "Eh, let him have this one." :)
    My main character was too busy joggling Zevran and Leliana to hold a candle to Allistair =p
    Romance is so cool in Dragon Age.

    EDIT: Speaking of romance (and getting back on topic ), we know the new NPCs are romanceable. What about the old ones?
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-07-29 at 06:17 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    My main character was too busy joggling Zevran and Leliana to hold a candle to Allistair =p
    Romance is so cool in Dragon Age.
    Oh, absolutely. :) I mean, my first character was a Human Noble, so romancing Alistair made sense (and you get to replace Anora as Queen of Ferelden, which, frankly, she had it coming ), but on my second playthrough I was a male Mage who fell for Morrigan, she broke his heart, and he turned to Zevran for comfort. The whole love triangle was surprisingly complex. :)

    EDIT: Speaking of romance (and getting back on topic ), we know the new NPCs are romanceable. What about the old ones?
    Well, the creators have said that they weren't allowed to modify existing NPCs in that way - in fact, I think the only reason Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are romance options at all is because they'll be turning up in BG2EE, so you can potentially play the romance all the way through the trilogy.
    Last edited by dianakingston; 2012-07-29 at 06:29 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    Quite true. :) Really, aside from Edwin, Viconia, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen, I'm hard-pressed to think of any BG1 NPCs who have a substantial presence in the later games...
    Well, a few of them get cameos, obviously, but only Faldorn's and Xzar's/Montaron's have any real bearing on a quest.

    So there's a chance the surge can happen any time you cast a spell, but it's possible to sway the odds in your favor? Hmm...
    Not really in your favor, but they'll be less stacked against you. The Chaos Shield spells add 15 and 25 to your rolls, respectively.
    They also stack, depending on your mod configuration. Some mods have, as far as I remember, changed this. It's an exploit anyway, so let's assume only +25. Since there are 100 different Wild Surge results and only a few let you actually cast the spell you want, this isn't much. It makes getting good results more likely, but not all good results may be what you need at the time. (I'd leave a link to a Wild Surge table here, but honestly, it's more fun not to know the options if you've never played the class before.)

    Really, when it comes to assessing the power of the class, I find it's best to consider a Wild Mage a Mage that gets an extra spell/level but suffers a 5% miscast chance for it.
    Which is a pretty good deal, in my opinion.



    By the way, in BG1, the random caster level fluctuations are, in my experience, much, much more significant than the risk of Wild Surges. Losing or gaining two damage dice on a Fireball makes a huge difference there.

    (This is assuming your memorized 1st level spells aren't 10 Reckless Dweomers that you fire whenever you don't absolutely need to cast a Web or Dispel or something. This is exactly what you should be doing, though. )
    Last edited by Johnny Blade; 2012-07-29 at 07:17 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    The problem with Imoen, Nalia and Aerie, though, is that they all have built-in limitations - they'll never progress as far as a spellcaster PC,
    What are you talking about?
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What are you talking about?
    Well, Imoen and Nalia are both dual-class - the levels they've spent as thieves are levels your spellcaster PC has advanced in his own class. Aerie is multi-class, so even if you took her with you through all of BG2 and ToB, she'd never really catch up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Blade View Post
    Well, a few of them get cameos, obviously, but only Faldorn's and Xzar's/Montaron's have any real bearing on a quest.
    Isn't there a plot by Safana and Coran to murder the main character in BG2?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    Well, Imoen and Nalia are both dual-class - the levels they've spent as thieves are levels your spellcaster PC has advanced in his own class.
    40,000 whole XP away from Imoen's wizard class, out of over 3 million XP in Shadows of Amn, and over 6 million in BG2-counting-ToB! A fraction of one level by the time you get to high level abilities! Even less for Nalia! So very meaningful!

    And you said, "They'll never progress as far as a spellcaster PC," which is just...huh? If you happen to be very lucky/unlucky, those 40,000 XP might make the difference in whether Imoen is level 15 or level 16 wizard at one particular moment; they sure don't affect her relationship with the XP cap (maximum level 7/17 for thief>wizard dual-class with seven levels of thief and only Shadows of Amn installed, and 17 for single-classed wizard; 7/31 for thief>wizard dual-class with seven levels of thief and Throne of Bhaal installed, and 31 for single-classed wizard).
    Aerie is multi-class, so even if you took her with you through all of BG2 and ToB, she'd never really catch up.
    See, now, if you'd said "Aerie/Jan will never be the wizard that Imoen/Nalia/Edwin/a PC who is a single-classed wizard can be," you'd be right.

    You didn't. You said "spellcaster." Aerie is a cleric/wizard. In no way is she limited compared to a PC cleric/wizard.

    The PC is, assuming you didn't design him/her to be crippled (coughBeastmastercough), likely to be the most powerful character in your party. That is not a failing in any individual character who can join you; it's a design decision, and one I consider a correct one. Incidentally, "You can play a single-classed non-specialist wizard" is really not something I would hold up as an adventage for the PC, because that's one of the PC choices I would consider "designing your character to be crippled." A single-classed wizard is significantly weaker than a sorcerer, a fighter>wizard dual-class, or, oh yeah...a thief>wizard dual-class, who has just enough thief skills to be all the thief you need*.

    *Imoen can be all the thief you need, not Nalia. Nalia's thief skills are so minor that her dual-class pretty much just allows her to use a bow, though that's far from meaningless and she effectively gave up nothing for it.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-07-29 at 08:34 AM.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    *Imoen can be all the thief you need, not Nalia. Nalia's thief skills are so minor that her dual-class pretty much just allow her to use a bow, though that's far from meaningless and she effectively gave up nothing for it.
    Nalia can steal deal with simple thief stuff and if you ever want to go on a thieving rampage, drink the potion that enhances thieving skills (multiple times if needed) and just go on stealing, so it's not really that big of a deal.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    When I think of "things I need a member of the thief class for," Pick Pockets isn't really even on the list.

    You can't dose Nalia with potions whenever you're going through an area that has traps, unless there are way more potions that increase trap detection ability in the game than I realized, and even if so that sounds like ever such a pain. You can tell when you need to open locks, but...still a pain.
    Last edited by Kish; 2012-07-29 at 08:57 AM.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    When I think of "things I need a member of the thief class for," Pick Pockets isn't really even on the list.

    You can't dose Nalia with potions whenever you're going through an area that has traps, unless there are way more potions that increase trap detection ability in the game than I realized, and even if so that sounds like ever such a pain.
    There are items that boost trapfinding as well (I remember a ring, at least). And yeah, there are a lot of potions for boosting trap detection.
    Finally, 100 is all you need to detect all traps in the game. Higher scores only make detecting it a bit faster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Isn't there a plot by Safana and Coran to murder the main character in BG2?
    It's Safana's plot, actually, she just suckers Coran into participating. But you have to go out of your way to trigger that encounter. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    The PC is, assuming you didn't design him/her to be crippled (coughBeastmastercough), likely to be the most powerful character in your party.
    You seem to have a pretty narrow definition of "not crippling yourself". I mean, Keldorn, Jaheira, Korgan, Edwin, Imoen and Anomen have some pretty nice classes.
    I think my first playthrough (SoA only) was as a Monk, which is not exactly crippled, but he was still surpassed in his role by Jaheira when I figured out how to use her right. I don't remember a lot about the specifics, considering it's been more than 10 years, but it tipped me off to the fact that fighters can be pretty great when coupled with spellcasting classes.

    (My second playthrough was me buying into the massive online hype at the time and going Kensai/Mage dual-wielding Celestial Fury and Belm.)


    EDIT: Also, I don't think Sorcerers are all that great. This is coming from someone who always plays Trilogy games, though, if we're only talking SoA and ToB, they really are top shelf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    When I think of "things I need a member of the thief class for," Pick Pockets isn't really even on the list.
    It's actually been really useful when I invested in it, but still kind of an afterthought. Something to put serious points in mid/late SoA, when you start getting to merchants that have really amazing stuff to steal (and can't come back to later).

    I mean, I've often read that you're supposed to be swimming in money at that time, but I never do. It's probably my intimate relationship with consumable items, but whatever the case, if I want all the good stuff, I've got to go and steal it.

    Before that, there are only a few instances where high Pickpocket skills are of value, although there's of course the Temple of Umberlee in Baldur's Gate where it really pays off.

    Quote Originally Posted by dianakingston View Post
    It's Safana's plot, actually, she just suckers Coran into participating. But you have to go out of your way to trigger that encounter. :)
    Yeah, I didn't really count that one since it's just a little throwaway cameo. Still kind of sad about Safana, though; I like her.
    Last edited by Johnny Blade; 2012-07-29 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Speaking of classes and crippling yourself it's strange that out of the two worthless kits in BG2, there are several mods for Wizard Slayer - I haven't really tried any of them in practice, though - but there don't seem to be any for Beastmaster. Perhaps even modders deem it unsalvageable...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Blade View Post
    EDIT: Also, I don't think Sorcerers are all that great. This is coming from someone who always plays Trilogy games, though, if we're only talking SoA and ToB, they really are top shelf.
    Mm no. I'm not only talking BG2. I'd actually say they're even more powerful, relative to wizards, at BG1 levels.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Speaking of classes and crippling yourself it's strange that out of the two worthless kits in BG2, there are several mods for Wizard Slayer - I haven't really tried any of them in practice, though - but there don't seem to be any for Beastmaster. Perhaps even modders deem it unsalvageable...
    If I ever get around to learning how to make a functioning mod instead of just playing around with game files to mod my own installations, this is the first thing I'll do.
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    My idea pretty much being that, as you level up, you'd get the abilities to summon some animals similar to Find Familiar, except you'd get a couple of them over the course of the games, and choices would obviously include Bears, Panthers and the like.
    They'd also level up and be revivable, possibly through dialogue and items, I don't know right now.

    Either way, you'd get buddies, and they'd give you bonuses in addition to helping you in a fight.

    I guess some special abilities to buff your little pack wouldn't hurt either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Mm no. I'm not only talking BG2. I'd actually say they're even more powerful, relative to wizards, at BG1 levels.
    I've found their slower spell progression a real issue in BG1. Come endgame, it's the difference between 5th level spells or not, pretty much, and not having those has made some of the later "boss fights" (Sarevok's henchmen in Candlekeep, the man himself) harder by a fair margin.
    I guess it depends on whether or not you have a second mage that gets to that level, though.

    Even before that, it can mean not having good AoE spells - like Sleep, which you probably won't even pick - when you really want them.
    Last edited by Johnny Blade; 2012-07-29 at 10:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Speaking of classes and crippling yourself it's strange that out of the two worthless kits in BG2, there are several mods for Wizard Slayer - I haven't really tried any of them in practice, though - but there don't seem to be any for Beastmaster. Perhaps even modders deem it unsalvageable...
    Wizard Slayer is a cool concept with a bunch of unique features. His ability kit would be strong, it just doesn't have enough numbers to compensate for the disadvantages (unlike, say, Berserker).

    Meanwhile Beastmaster is just dumb and I see it as an "afterthought" since all the other Ranger kits fit certain niches and Beastmaster is just... there. Even if you could salvage him, why would you want to (while still retaining the concept)? Might as well make a new class altogether.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Blade View Post
    If I ever get around to learning how to make a functioning mod instead of just playing around with game files to mod my own installations, this is the first thing I'll do.
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    My idea pretty much being that, as you level up, you'd get the abilities to summon some animals similar to Find Familiar, except you'd get a couple of them over the course of the games, and choices would obviously include Bears, Panthers and the like.
    They'd also level up and be revivable, possibly through dialogue and items, I don't know right now.

    Either way, you'd get buddies, and they'd give you bonuses in addition to helping you in a fight.

    I guess some special abilities to buff your little pack wouldn't hurt either.
    I've heard that creating and modifying kits is relatively easy, but I'm not sure how hard the exact changes you're proposing would be to implement. They seem like they'd be complicated, but I don't really know much about modding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    Wizard Slayer is a cool concept with a bunch of unique features. His ability kit would be strong, it just doesn't have enough numbers to compensate for the disadvantages (unlike, say, Berserker).

    Meanwhile Beastmaster is just dumb and I see it as an "afterthought" since all the other Ranger kits fit certain niches and Beastmaster is just... there. Even if you could salvage him, why would you want to (while still retaining the concept)? Might as well make a new class altogether.
    That might be it, yeah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    I've heard that creating and modifying kits is relatively easy, but I'm not sure how hard the exact changes you're proposing would be to implement. They seem like they'd be complicated, but I don't really know much about modding.
    Well, it may be a bit more complex, but I'd work off of the Find Familiar spell for that reason. It's already there, so I can't ruin everything.

    Apart from that, it would be a lot of coding legwork to implement their leveling, which would need several creature and item files for each possible summon. That's where most of the screw-ups would happen, probably.

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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    The thing about Nalia and Imoen is that they really shouldn't be taken as thieves, they should be taken as mages with added proficiencies, such as the added ability to wear elven chain and wield extra weapon types, such as bows, long swords, and katana. The fact that their thieving skills are just about all you'll usually need for the entire game is just something of a bonus.

    Aerie, on the other hand can do some pretty nifty stuff. Placing doom and chromatic orb on the same spell trigger can make for a pretty good instakill at the right levels, and the ability to toss around holy smite and fireball like they were candy is simply delicious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Aerie, on the other hand can do some pretty nifty stuff. Placing doom and chromatic orb on the same spell trigger can make for a pretty good instakill at the right levels, and the ability to toss around holy smite and fireball like they were candy is simply delicious.
    Yeah, Aerie is an awesome walking arsenal. And I always found it pretty bizarre funny that someone with her meek, soft-hearted personality doesn't think twice about dropping fire and acid on people.

    "Oh my."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Yeah, Aerie is an awesome walking arsenal. And I always found it pretty bizarre funny that someone with her meek, soft-hearted personality doesn't think twice about dropping fire and acid on people.

    "Oh my."
    She warms my heart in ToB: "This is going to hurt you a lot more than me!"
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    Depending on how neat the blackguard kit is, I may use that for a character that romances Viconia. Or maybe he'll be a sociopath that's sweet enough to Aerie's face to romance her (or at least to sleep with her and dump her by the roadside when she turns up preggo). If it's good, I'll also roll an assassin and use Dorn as the party tank. Kind of a shame that the EE isn't adding any romance options for evil male protagonists (from the bios, I'm guessing that Neera is going to be CG and Rasaad will be LN), but Viconia was always my favorite romance option anyway. Besides, I'm sure that modders will expand the mating pool.
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    Depending on how neat the blackguard kit is, I may use that for a character that romances Viconia. Or maybe he'll be a sociopath that's sweet enough to Aerie's face to romance her (or at least to sleep with her and dump her by the roadside when she turns up preggo). If it's good, I'll also roll an assassin and use Dorn as the party tank. Kind of a shame that the EE isn't adding any romance options for evil male protagonists (from the bios, I'm guessing that Neera is going to be CG and Rasaad will be LN), but Viconia was always my favorite romance option anyway. Besides, I'm sure that modders will expand the mating pool.
    There are hints that Rasaad may be compatible with an evil male protagonist...

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Iceland
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quick question: What did the Charisma-induced reaction adjustment ever actually do? Does it affect anything other than store prices? I know that Harper hit squad in BG2 sometimes backs away and sometimes attacks, but I always thought that depended on Reputation.
    "Is this 'cause I killed the hippie? Is that even illegal?"

  29. - Top - End - #269
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009

    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeivar View Post
    Quick question: What did the Charisma-induced reaction adjustment ever actually do? Does it affect anything other than store prices? I know that Harper hit squad in BG2 sometimes backs away and sometimes attacks, but I always thought that depended on Reputation.
    Oh, that's something of a hornet's nest. :) According to the D&D rules, it was supposed to affect the Sorcerer's spellcasting ability, but in reality it's mostly to do with store prices and minor dialogue options in various sidequests. Nothing vital, really.

  30. - Top - End - #270
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Morty's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Poland
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    Default Re: Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition

    It's made quite clear in the Sorcerer's description that his spells are governed by Intelligence, not Charisma. Not sure why, really.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Kid Kris. Sigatars by Gulaghar, Kid Kris, Zefir and billtodamax, respectively.

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