3.5 homebrew, why?

[greenpotato]

Every time I apply for a game in the play by post section of this forum it seems that 90% of applicants want at least two pieces of homebrew. And it's not small stuff either were talking completely new classes with custom designed mechanics etc often with power levels always at one extreme of the spectrum.

My question is why.
Why do people on these forums seem to have such a preference for homebrew?
If you use homebrew then I ask why you feel it's necessary

[legomaster00156]

Because homebrew is fun, and quite frequently, DM's don't care to take time out of a game to review homebrew at a real tabletop. That said, 90% is an enormous exaggeration.

[Jarian]

Because 3.5 does not cover all options.

Because 3.5 options are notoriously overpowered or weak, with very little in between.

Because homebrew is new and exciting, especially when there is a clear purpose behind the idea.

I do think you exaggerate about the amount requested, however.

[Madara]

Many concepts have no support for such a character idea(such as a minecrafter)(Yes there is a class on our boards for that)(Or maybe one of the many monster classes from the community project)

Concepts have backup in the books, but they are weak(Such as an Archer/ranger)

Many people have played for a long time, and as such are bored with normal classes

New material adds more spice to a game, in the same analogy, however, too many different spices end up tasting awful

Our homebrew boards have a wonderful section which is actually good quality balanced homebrew(most of the time)

[Ernir]

It's a system that has been out of print for years. Homebrew is the only fresh thing out there for it.

[Man on Fire]

Wanna test my homebrews in the actual game.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I like ToB. ToB has very little official support. It has a ton of homebrew support. My favorite disciplines? Come from TheDementedOne. AKA, the most brilliant homebrewer on here and the Exalted forums.

Also, my favorite setting is Callos_Deterran's Warriors and Wuxia. Which has lots of homebrew. Including feats from Ziegander's Warrior's Way that let me build an int-based beatstick.

[Wyntonian]

And it's not small stuff either were talking completely new classes with custom designed mechanics etc often with power levels always at one extreme of the spectrum.

Emphasis mine.

If you can't cite it, don't post it. And as a connoisseur and frequent review of homebrew, I somehow doubt you can, at least regarding stuff on these boards.

No, seriously. Give us a single example of a low-end and high-end class that someone requested in an actual game.

[Lateral]

Because good homebrew is often better in quality than most of what WotC ever produced, and because it does things that none of the WotC classes do. Wanna make an eldritch horror of fangs, eyes, claws, and tentacles that drives people insane with its very appearance? Yeah, good luck doing that without homebrew. With homebrew? Ozodrin 20, and you're there. Wanna make a truenamer/monk/samurai/healer/ninja/whatever that doesn't suck, but is simple and still keeps the same mechanical feel of a truenamer/monk/samurai/healer/ninja/whatever? There are about a billion homebrews for that. See what I mean?

[greenpotato]

If you can't cite it, don't post it. And as a connoisseur and frequent review of homebrew, I somehow doubt you can, at least regarding stuff on these boards.

No, seriously. Give us a single example of a low-end and high-end class that someone requested in an actual game.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147289 = high end request
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...08&postcount=2 = low end request

[Dienekes]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147289 = high end request

Is worse than a druid. Mind you, I probably wouldn't allow it in my games because after level 5 their turn and animal companions would slow the game down too much.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...08&postcount=2 = low end request

Seems better than a Monk.

Oh right, initial reasons for pro-homebrew.

Because numerous brewers are amazing and give quality work, and to be honest WotC created the Fighter and Monk class and though they were good ideas as presented. Besides, a lot of time they're fun, and since they're already optional homebrew the GM pretty much has the ok to tweak the classes in some way without the player getting too up in arms about it.

[legomaster00156]

How are either of those unbalanced?

[Chambers]

I do think you exaggerate about the amount requested, however.

In my experience, I don't think it's much of an exaggeration, though I'd rate it closer to 50-75% (and also dependent on the type of game). I pretty much keep the PbP forum on the site and read through the Finding Players threads every couple of days to see what's new and what patterns seem to be occurring. I can't cite sources for the majority of my opinions here, but I've got about 2 years experience with the PbP forum here, so I think my general knowledge of it is adequate for estimation purposes.

That said, I think it depends on the type of 3rd edition game being played. I've noticed less homebrew requests for Pathfinder games then for regular 3.5 games across the board, and within 3.5 the homebrew requests tend to have a positive correlation with the level of the game. The game threads that I think get the highest amount of homebrew requests are Epic Gestalt 3.5 threads. Of the probably 2 dozen of those threads that I've seen, I'd estimate the average number of homebrew requests per player to be around 5 - 7, and that's probably low. Some people have a list of 10 or 15 things they'd like to use, including races, classes, templates, spells, invocations, and feats.

As for why people like to use homebrew...for myself I like to use homebrew that either adds something that I think was missing from the game or revises something that doesn't quite work the way I think it should. I've done my own revisions of a few classes, including turning the Ninja into a Tome of Battle discipline, and there are other homebrew additions that I think really add to the game, such as Vael's excellent new invocations for the Warlock.

[DiBastet]

Because pbp gms are softer, and because this is gitp and the people here consider homebrew a form of sacred art?

[Lateral]

Because pbp gms are softer, and because this is gitp and the people here consider homebrew a form of sacred art?

No. Why the hell would PbP DMs be softer, of all things? And, just FYI, a lot of homebrew does suck. It's just that the homebrew produced in the Homebrew forums here tends to be heavily critiqued, and when people actually put effort into improving their homebrew the finished product usually comes up looking pretty balanced because they've had so much input. The stuff that usually gets used is stuff that is made by highly skilled homebrewers, too.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147289 = high end request
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...08&postcount=2 = low end request

The first one is decent, although a bit powerful and has maybe too many animal companions. It's pretty much Wildshape Ranger with Beastmaster rolled in, so high tier 3. The second is again, kind of weak but certainly not horrible. Tier 4, probably, on the low end. Not great, but not the "extreme ends of the spectrum" you advertised.

[Jarian]

Because pbp gms are softer, and because this is gitp and the people here consider homebrew a form of sacred art?

There are some pretty negative connotations right there. Can you show me on the doll where the homebrew touched you?

[Wyntonian]

Yeah, the first one's a weaker druid. Woo. Yes, the second one sucks. On the other hand, would you be ok with someone asking to play a monk?

Also, consider when 3.5 came out. 2003. Nine years ago, more or less, with a build team of... I'm not really sure, exactly, and my google-fu hasn't turned up much. Say, thirty active designers, with six months or so of conscious effort put into designing classes. I'm sure I'm being generous as all hell, assuming that thirty(!) people spent 6 months(!) on classes alone, but let's err on that side of the line.

Now, we have nine years of conscious effort and experience, and a design team of... however many homebrewers there are in the world. I'm guessing there's more than 30.

We simply have more time, experience and collective imagination to do a good job than the original designers did. Yes, many of us aren't professionals, but together we have, generally, a productive enough feedback system to keep things in line with what we're used to, using our collective understanding together, rather than the "experience" of a guy who though Natural Spell, the Wizard and the Monk belonged in the same book.

With all that in mind... What do you have against homebrew? You saw a weak class one time? You don't want to put in the effort to understand someone else's class? These don't seem like terribly heart-wrenching reasons to discredit both the concept that gave birth to my finest characters and the art form that now has to carry the torch for 3.5.

[eggs]

Three reasons I use it:

1. 3e is more than a decade old; its first party support stopped 5 years ago and its 3rd party support's been waning. I have played and seen too many lockdown fighters, potion-throwing rogues, battlefield control wizards, hellfire ur-locks, DMM Clerics, cookie-cutter sorcadins, etc. I'm sick of them. I play 3e because it's a commonly-known and mostly free game, but in terms of content, I want something fresh.
2. WotC didn't cover every concept. And what they did cover isn't always good, or doesn't always fit nicely with other system features. And sometimes WotC lays out a good idea, but just doesn't extend it to all the areas that as a player, I'd like (eg. it'd be cool to have a Riposte Scout/Swashbuckler multiclass feat, and it's very clear how it would be designed; the only obstacle is that nobody in WotC staff ever bothered to write it).
3. I respect the system mastery of people who've geeked out over the system for a decade or more as much as I do that of the WotC staff. If my players and I agree that something is balanced to the power level that we enjoy, I am usually more confident in it - even if it's something a player hashed out in the half hour before the game - than I am in WotC's judgment of balance or fun designs.

Edit:
Actually, #1 brings up a fourth reason:

• Homebrew is free (without running into any legal obstacles or raising any ethical questions).

[ngilop]

I cannot speak for anybody but myself, but I want to play Homebrewed for two reasons

the first is it takes an existing class and 'fixes' it Much like the Marshal that I am looking to play in a PbP here on GiTP


or the 2nd reason is it a whole new class like the Sharpshooter that actually allows a concept to be competant


i myself have a loathing of homebrewed classes that require you to learn a whole new subsytem or in the case of some multiple subsytems, so those classes i would never play and when I do run my PbP here never allow

[Mystic Muse]

If you use homebrew then I ask why you feel it's necessary

Because 3.5 does not cover all options.

Because 3.5 options are notoriously overpowered or weak, with very little in between.

Because homebrew is new and exciting, especially when there is a clear purpose behind the idea.

Jarian pretty much has it here, but I'll mention my own personal reasons.

I almost exclusively homebrew Monster Classes (Which I need to get back to). These are not like Wizards of the Coast Monster classes where at the end, you just end up the same as a basic WotC monster. These are intended to be playable at level 1, and playable after you get to the end and/or multiclass.

Let's say you want to play a Silver Dragon. Now, by the Wizards of the Coast rules, you'd be level 11 minimum, be at small size, and not be much good at anything. Your damaging breath weapon isn't strong enough to hurt much of anything, just about any enemy will be able to make the save for the Paralysis breath, Your armor class sucks, your saving throws suck, your stats suck, your attack bonus is pathetic, you only have 7 hit dice instead of 11 and you're vulnerable to fire. The advantages (Alternate form,two immunites) do not outweigh the costs.

So, my intent was to fix this. Not only to make the Silver dragon playable, but to make it feel like you were playing a dragon. Everything in the class scales to be usable at higher levels, meaning your breath weapons remain relevant, you can have decent stats, and you actually have the proper amount of hit dice.

[DiBastet]

No. Why the hell would PbP DMs be softer, of all things? And, just FYI, a lot of homebrew does suck. It's just that the homebrew produced in the Homebrew forums here tends to be heavily critiqued, and when people actually put effort into improving their homebrew the finished product usually comes up looking pretty balanced because they've had so much input. The stuff that usually gets used is stuff that is made by highly skilled homebrewers, too.

Well, that's opinion, right?

There are some pretty negative connotations right there. Can you show me on the doll where the homebrew touched you?

Oh, please, don't see negative connotations where there are none!

I use like, twelve disciplines (maybe more? can't remember), three base classes and a variant magic system found in this very forum, that I added to my player's guide, I do a lot of homebrew and even post some of it here to get some critique?

I thank your attention, but the homebrew didn't touch me, didn't intimidate me telling it's going to hurt daddy and mommy, and didn't offer strange sweets from a van

[eggs]

It didn't even roll down its windows, wink a slimy wink, reach out a wrinkly hand and proffer a PEACH?

[DiBastet]

It didn't even roll down its windows, wink a slimy wink, reach out a wrinkly hand and proffer a PEACH?

That, my kind sir, is quite funny.

(I guess I should wrap [sarcasm] and [really, I mean it] tags around my posts!)

[Lateral]

Well, that's opinion, right?

Which part? The part about PbP DMs is opinion, but the point is more that you're making an unfair generalization. The other part is from observation.

[DiBastet]

Oh, okay, I can elaborate: It mostly meant that I did answer the op question with my opinion, and that while you gave your opinion about my opinion, I didn't care to argue, take into consideration or elaborate on your post, neither I will now.

Maybe "I just have my opinion, and I see you have yours" could have been be a better expression at the time.

[Demons_eye]

My question is why.
Why do people on these forums seem to have such a preference for homebrew?
If you use homebrew then I ask why you feel it's necessary

Why: Because it never hurts to ask. If you are applying to 5 games and want to play this class/use this feat/ cast this spell, one might let you. If not, so what?

I use homebrew because my players have a level a system mastery that undermines the game because they tend to use OOC knowledge more than they should. Changing up stats/hp/feats on monsters help but throwing in something people don't use much or has a machinic they don't know is refreshing to everyone.

[Roc Ness]

Me, I use homebrew a lot.

A notorious lot, in fact. I don't think the homebrew forums actually have a 90% homebrew rate (myself, I find the breakdown is more like 30% straight or simple pure WotC builds, 10% really complex pure WotC dip bonanzas, 30% straight/simple completely homebrew builds, and 30% mixed bag combinations of homebrew and WotC material), however, I believe I probably do.

Now, here are some of my reasons for doing so:

• I've played the WotC materials long enough that I'd like to try something quite different in playstyle while sticking to the same game. This is really easy to find in homebrew, as good homebrewers often have their own very distinct writing or construction styles. Likewise, as a DM, homebrew is an extremely useful way of playing with players who know the system inside out, and who can otherwise expect everything you use. Tying in with that...
• You often find new sparks and ideas in homebrew you wouldn't have found anywhere else. Gems of original thought. For example, the aforementioned Ozodrin (been meaning to find a suitable game for that class for a while myself). Try finding that anywhere official, at the same level of quality. I myself am currently playing a game as a Field Medic, by the talented Realms of Chaos. A nicely balanced class, and it gives the option of a nonmagical and effective method of healing, something hard to find in official material. Gnorman's E6 compendium is another example. The E6 variant rules themselves were homebrew, and so of course Gnorman's classes support these rules like no other. I could go on all day, I have a folder full of homebrew links I've considered interesting or high quality.
• Certain well-known problems with official classes (such as MAD, lack of skill points, dead levels, etc) are automatically addressed by homebrewers as they create them, simply because we all know it can be a problem. This means that often, homebrew flows much better and can be much easier to play.
• Homebrew is extremely accessible. People may not have certain books, but you can just link them some homebrew. Heck, you can PM the creator and ask them for clarifications if you are unsure of RAW or RAI, or even if you just want a casual chat! And if you were following the homebrew thread while it was active, you can see input given by the community, and how the author reacts and changes his creation in response, generally for the better. You don't get to see the "behind the scenes" deal of creation that surrounds most official material.

Everything else, I think, has been mentioned.

[Tvtyrant]

I allow a lot of homebrew as a DM and use it when allowed as a player. Why?

New mechanics make the game interesting, and without the backing of the internet community are unlikely to be shattered into a game ender the way the game already has been.

It allows people who aren't mechanically proficient to play difficult to create within the rules concepts. Like a teleporting archer who gets to shoot on the same turn they teleport, or someone who turns into a demon and gets its abilities (before level 17). I think allowing people to play the concepts they want to play is a good thing.

[Roc Ness]

... I would so love to see a teleporting gunslinger.

[Thiyr]

I think allowing people to play the concepts they want to play is a good thing.

This is my big thing for me. I do love me some homebrew, and have a tendency to ask for it in my fleshspace games just because, well, a lot of times they do concepts far better than many analogues in first party material. For instance, I really wanted to play the mad surgeon/torturer. You know the kind, the one who you trust to patch you up right, but have learned from experience that you need to make sure he knows up front not to add any new appendages to you. Printed material would mean I'd have to be a fleshgrafter. And I'd have to use those boring, expensive, clunky grafts they have. That means it has to be a character at relatively high levels, burning a ton of cash being a half-arsed crafter. Or, I could just affix everything to everything and not have to fight against the system to play something fun that fits better than anything wizards published. (note: i discovered this after already mothballing the concept for being too difficult. It was a wonderful find.)