My Little Pony 2F: Ponibooru, We Hardly Knew Ye...

[SiuiS]

Umm... I can haz update on what the heck is going on here?

Pony!
More specifically, DD and I are checking in from BronyCon while everyone else argues over the merits of Luna being capable of that level of evil on her own.

I honestly hope they DON'T show how Luna turned into Nightmare Moon, because it would probably involve her being corrupted or possessed by some malicious entity.

Why would it show that? Nothing in the how points to that. It also ruins the emotional impact of Luna doing whatshe did because it was the best option available to her. Luna was as corrupted by a malicious entity, as Shining Armor was possessed by an angel.

This is the dumbest name for Celestia I have ever heard.

I disagree. I think it wraps around to awesome camp.
What would you call her?

it's social convention that has a lot to do with basic biology. the older brother usually is bigger, stronger, and better at most things by nature of just being older. it naturally puts them in a position to be protective, too.

Life = millennia+
Age difference = decade, maybe

Luna also has an established implicit power increase above Celestia's own. So.

[Lix Lorn]

Ahahahahahaha look at the all pages that have happened since my last post. What do you guys find to even talk about over here? @_@

Ponies.
Just ponies.

[Deadly]

Still got your pancreas? Scootaloo can help you with that ...

Spoiler

Show

[thubby]

I saw this picture ...

Spoiler

Show

... and its title, and I had an idea. The only time we've seen Luna during the day was at the end of the nightmare moon episode, where she looked smaller and didn't have the magic mane. What if that is actually how she looks during the day? Maybe she loses some of her power during the day, maybe it even waxes and wanes with the moon?

Random thought, don't think I've seen this suggested before as an explanation for the change of looks.

seriously. read eternal

[Deadly]

seriously. read eternal

Uh, what?

[thubby]

Uh, what?

one of the best fan fictions ever
and luna works exactly like you described.

Life= millennia+
Age difference = decade, maybe

Luna also has an established implicit power increase above Celestia's own. So.

fanon aside, the royal sisters really don't act like immortals you'd see in other media, and it's really irrelevant who's stronger now. but you're missing the point.

im not saying luna can't be the stronger more protective one, just that people give celestia that role because it correlates to a cery real and normal occurrence.

[Deadly]

one of the best fan fictions ever
and luna works exactly like you described.

I'll see if I can find some time to read it

[MCerberus]

fanon aside, the royal sisters really don't act like immortals you'd see in other media.

It seems more than anything they're trying to reject the disconnection that functional immortality can bring.

[Kd7sov]

Also, have we ever actually seen Celestia at night?

As far as I know only for the summer sun celebration, so it could be the effect is on both of them.

Flashback: Summer Sun Celebration (1x23)
Grand Galloping Gala (1x26)
Joe's Donut Shop after the Gala (1x26)
Books & Branches Library, shortly after sunset (2x03)
"As always, I will guard the night." (2x25)

...Yes?

[OracleofWuffing]

Since there's no way I'm going to Bronycon, I'm just saying I'm playing some of the Phantasy Star Online 2 open beta. Shortly after the first tutorial, you run into a guy who's mag summons a horned pegasus that crashes a supernova into a bunch of enemies.

While that's most definitely a coincidence, fanon dictates I believe it is not.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Luna also has an established implicit power increase above Celestia's own. So.

How so? Not asking for the sake of arguing the point, I'm simply not familiar with the reasons.

[Eakin]

Why would it show that? Nothing in the how points to that. It also ruins the emotional impact of Luna doing whatshe did because it was the best option available to her. Luna was as corrupted by a malicious entity, as Shining Armor was possessed by an angel.

Two possible reasons: First I think there was a Word of Faust that suggested that NMM was an outside entity, but I can't find that now. Second I can't imagine that Hasbro would be cool with actually depicting one of their protagonists as straight up evil. It's one thing if it's off camera and in the back story but a whole other issue to actually depict one of their beloved princesses going nuts and snapping.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Two possible reasons: First I think there was a Word of Faust that suggested that NMM was an outside entity, but I can't find that now. Second I can't imagine that Hasbro would be cool with actually depicting one of their protagonists as straight up evil. It's one thing if it's off camera and in the back story but a whole other issue to actually depict one of their beloved princesses going nuts and snapping.

You can't find it... but the element of wiki can

(Also possibly relevant)

[SynissterSyster]

@Thanqol

Can you write any better? I love both chapters of your mewest story. I feel so much for Bon-Bon though why she hangs out with such a..unique pony as Lyra is a mystery (which I like btw). I will eagerly await the next chapter. Ty again so very much.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

Thanqol, "Do not serve these ponies" was a funny little story, a little light on the characterization tough...

Also one small thing:
“Ownership is relative, man,” Lyra said, diving aside.
I think it should be something like...
“Ownership is relative, colt,” Lyra said, diving aside.

All in all, funny, not the best of the best, but would read more chapters if you keep at it.

[SiuiS]

Huzzah! BronyCon has voted!
Starry Notions, best changeling.

fanon aside, the royal sisters really don't act like immortals you'd see in other media, and it's really irrelevant who's stronger now. but you're missing the point.

im not saying luna can't be the stronger more protective one, just that people give celestia that role because it correlates to a cery real and normal occurrence.

If the older sibling is a 6'4" and a lawyer, and the younger is a 5'8" football player, I'm goin to be more afraid of the football player. It's also a very real and normal thing.

How so? Not asking for the sake of arguing the point, I'm simply not familiar with the reasons.

They fought and Luna won. And te argument that Crlly held back does not hold water. Sure, she didn't try to kill Luna, but Luna didn't try to kill Celly either. She very specifically captured and imprisoned her. Which requires EVEN MORE POWER when you have a killing advantage.

It's also an implicit part of the duality of their natures. Celestia represents the day, where Luna represents the night. This is why Luna I passionate. It's also why she is so witchy.

Two possible reasons: First I think there was a Word of Faust that suggested that NMM was an outside entity, but I can't find that now. Second I can't imagine that Hasbro would be cool with actually depicting one of their protagonists as straight up evil. It's one thing if it's off camera and in the back story but a whole other issue to actually depict one of their beloved princesses going nuts and snapping.

the second one doesn't really hold up (discounting Faust's "reign of Evil"). It's escalation. How many people have been knifed because it was just the next step to make the other person back down? Also, how often have any of you done something in the thrall of strong emotion you wouldn't have otherwise?

I say again; Luna was jealous. She was as "corrupted" by jealousy as Twilight was corrupted by paranoia or fluttershy was corrupted by aggression, or Shining Armor was corrupted by love. Yes, I realize this sounds like they are corrupted, but my point is that there is no external force. The jealousy that overwhelmed her was her own; her magical nature made her successive because she is a pony of passion.

Incidentally, both of the Faust quotes have the addendum of 'not canon, sorry' an were framed to answer other questions entirely. We all know how taking something that seems factual in the wrong context can cause all sorts of incorrect inferences.

[Maxtronaut]

*looks at Daaawww posts.*

Oh Faust, there goes another one!

*reflexively pulls trigger. Looks at body of Thubby.*

We have the strangest of relationships.

[PhoeKun]

They fought and Luna won. And te argument that Crlly held back does not hold water. Sure, she didn't try to kill Luna, but Luna didn't try to kill Celly either. She very specifically captured and imprisoned her. Which requires EVEN MORE POWER when you have a killing advantage.

This happened... when, exactly?

[SiuiS]

This happened... when, exactly?

Luna was strong enough to require Celestia to use the elements of harmony instead of her horn laser, about a thousand years ago.

Upon her return, Nightmare Moon (admittedly referred to as a distinct person) overtook Celestia offscreen, and imprisoned her offscreen.

The usual rebuttal is "Celestia wasn't really trying evade she didn't want to hurt her sister", but that doesn't stand well on its own merits.

[Alabenson]

*looks at Daaawww posts.*

Oh Faust, there goes another one!

*reflexively pulls trigger. Looks at body of Thubby.*

We have the strangest of relationships.

So, exposure to 'Daaw' makes you shoot Thubby? This calls for an experiment!

Spoiler

Show

And if anyone now needs them, I'm offering new cybernetic pancreas models, that as far as you know contain absolutely no mind-control nanite colonies.

[Deadly]

Luna was strong enough to require Celestia to use the elements of harmony instead of her horn laser, about a thousand years ago.

Upon her return, Nightmare Moon (admittedly referred to as a distinct person) overtook Celestia offscreen, and imprisoned her offscreen.

The usual rebuttal is "Celestia wasn't really trying evade she didn't want to hurt her sister", but that doesn't stand well on its own merits.

While I agree with you on this topic, and think you've made some good points, I'd like to say that we don't actually know what happened off-screen. It's possible that Celestia went into hiding, and that NMM didn't worry about her because she was aware that Celestia couldn't use the Elements anymore so she wasn't the greatest threat.

Of course, the mere fact that Luna/NMM appears to have the power to keep the sun out of the sky and apparently won the original fight before Celestia resorted to the Elements should be enough, I think.

[Tvtyrant]

Luna was strong enough to require Celestia to use the elements of harmony instead of her horn laser, about a thousand years ago.

Upon her return, Nightmare Moon (admittedly referred to as a distinct person) overtook Celestia offscreen, and imprisoned her offscreen.

The usual rebuttal is "Celestia wasn't really trying evade she didn't want to hurt her sister", but that doesn't stand well on its own merits.

But Nightmare Moon also didn't defeat Celestia 1,000 years ago, which is just as open ended as the other way around.

Do we actually know this? Afterall, Discord needed to be defeated by the mane 6 using the elements and he never even fought with Celestia. For all we know she simply ran off.

Also, hilarious arc of comics is hilarious.

Spoiler

Show

[PhoeKun]

Luna was strong enough to require Celestia to use the elements of harmony instead of her horn laser, about a thousand years ago.

Upon her return, Nightmare Moon (admittedly referred to as a distinct person) overtook Celestia offscreen, and imprisoned her offscreen.

The usual rebuttal is "Celestia wasn't really trying evade she didn't want to hurt her sister", but that doesn't stand well on its own merits.

I think you are extrapolating a bit too much from neat ideas built out of incredibly vague and non-specific events. I mean, just for funsies, let's put the horseshoe on the other other foot:

Celestia spent a thousand years after Luna's imprisonment looking for a way to help. She knew the seal would eventually break, and on the very day that Nightmare Moon was due to come spiraling down from the heavens to wreak havoc she just happened to arrange for herself and her once-in-twelve-generations talented protege to be within spitting distance of the Elements of Harmony in a village that, oh by the way, happens to contain the five other ponies capable of wielding them alongside Twilight. A quick prod to get Twilight in the right mindset, and... well all right then.

At that point, Celly was holding all of the cards. What possible reason does she have to fight with Nightmare Moon?

And whether or not that explanation jives with you or not is wholly irrelevant, the point is that there is far far far too little information given to the viewer to do more than offer interesting conjecture. Which, given that the narrative of the arc is fully realized and delivers emotional impact while allowing for this kind of discussion, is actually a sign of "stupid good" writing.

You're swinging a point of potential, of fanon, like it's a hammer. I mean, yeah, it'd be awesome if Luna was secretly the stronger of the two. Subversion of tropes and all that. On the other hand, it's My Little Pony - it's simply not the kind of show that's meant to create a "right" answer to these kinds of questions and debates. Our pals at DHX Media play more or less the same game with each other all the time.

[erikun]

Challenge!

Can Ponies in the Playground create a WORSE name for Lightmare Celestia?

Brightshine Terror Really, where is the challange in that?

There is also Corona, the name given to her in Longest Night, Longest Day.

[Edit]

At that point, Celly was holding all of the cards. What possible reason does she have to fight with Nightmare Moon?

One could also argue that Celestia knew the elements of harmony were the only way to get Luna back, and as such intentionally played keep-away from Nightmare Moon to prevent her from attacking Twilight and the girls. As such, her loss wouldn't be due to being weaker, but in being unwilling to resort to actually hurting her sister.

[MCerberus]

You're swinging a point of potential, of fanon, like it's a hammer. I mean, yeah, it'd be awesome if Luna was secretly the stronger of the two. Subversion of tropes and all that. On the other hand, it's My Little Pony - it's simply not the kind of show that's meant to create a "right" answer to these kinds of questions and debates. Our pals at DHX Media play more or less the same game with each other all the time.

I'd like to think of their general strength level as non-comparable. While Celestia has bold, straightforward horsepower (tee hee) and the perception of the all-revealing light, Luna has an entirely different set of abilities.

Which one has more power? Depends on your definition.

[Tvtyrant]

I think you are extrapolating a bit too much from neat ideas built out of incredibly vague and non-specific events. I mean, just for funsies, let's put the horseshoe on the other other foot:

Celestia spent a thousand years after Luna's imprisonment looking for a way to help. She knew the seal would eventually break, and on the very day that Nightmare Moon was due to come spiraling down from the heavens to wreak havoc she just happened to arrange for herself and her once-in-twelve-generations talented protege to be within spitting distance of the Elements of Harmony in a village that, oh by the way, happens to contain the five other ponies capable of wielding them alongside Twilight. A quick prod to get Twilight in the right mindset, and... well all right then.

At that point, Celly was holding all of the cards. What possible reason does she have to fight with Nightmare Moon?

And whether or not that explanation jives with you or not is wholly irrelevant, the point is that there is far far far too little information given to the viewer to do more than offer interesting conjecture. Which, given that the narrative of the arc is fully realized and delivers emotional impact while allowing for this kind of discussion, is actually a sign of "stupid good" writing.

You're swinging a point of potential, of fanon, like it's a hammer. I mean, yeah, it'd be awesome if Luna was secretly the stronger of the two. Subversion of tropes and all that. On the other hand, it's My Little Pony - it's simply not the kind of show that's meant to create a "right" answer to these kinds of questions and debates. Our pals at DHX Media play more or less the same game with each other all the time.

Will you marry me? I kid of course on that, but I do heartily agree with your sentiments.

Brightshine Terror Really, where is the challange in that?

There is also Corona, the name given to her in Longest Night, Longest Day.

I think something playing on "mirage" would be best, since a mirage tends to be deceitful and has a negative connotation.

[SiuiS]

While I agree with you on this topic, and think you've made some good points, I'd like to say that we don't actually know what happened off-screen. It's possible that Celestia went into hiding, and that NMM didn't worry about her because she was aware that Celestia couldn't use the Elements anymore so she wasn't the greatest threat.

Of course, the mere fact that Luna/NMM appears to have the power to keep the sun out of the sky and apparently won the original fight before Celestia resorted to the Elements should be enough, I think.

That is a good point and one I hadn't considered.

I think you are extrapolating a bit too much from neat ideas built out of incredibly vague and non-specific events.

Admittedly, yes. I do feel however that this particular point of extrapolation falls the most ele... Aha. Hahaha. Second-most elegant of any theory thus far posited.

I mean, just for funsies, let's put the horseshoe on the other other foot:

Celestia spent a thousand years after Luna's imprisonment looking for a way to help. She knew the seal would eventually break, and on the very day that Nightmare Moon was due to come spiraling down from the heavens to wreak havoc she just happened to arrange for herself and her once-in-twelve-generations talented protege to be within spitting distance of the Elements of Harmony in a village that, oh by the way, happens to contain the five other ponies capable of wielding them alongside Twilight. A quick prod to get Twilight in the right mindset, and... well all right then.

At that point, Celly was holding all of the cards. What possible reason does she have to fight with Nightmare Moon?

This is true, but meta concerns naturally preclude discussion of in-universe events. Whenever we get involve in what is and is not canon, we are naturally discounting that this is a fictional universe. The correct answer is that Celly disappears because that's what the story required.

I find the thought that Celestia didn't do anything to be odd. I think it's heavily implied (which yes, means I haven't a hoof to stand on) that Nightmare Moon encountered Celestia and did something. If not, then why was NMM there? She had no reason to appear in Ponyville.

... Although.

Celestia told the farmers where to build Ponyville. She may have picked the location based on knowing that when freed, NMM would descend to this exact spot. She planned having the specific stage for her arrival...

And whether or not that explanation jives with you or not is wholly irrelevant, the point is that there is far far far too little information given to the viewer to do more than offer interesting conjecture. Which, given that the narrative of the arc is fully realized and delivers emotional impact while allowing for this kind of discussion, is actually a sign of "stupid good" writing.

This is true. We are working with occam's razor, which allows small details to unfold drastically, but real life does not conform
To this example.

You're swinging a point of potential, of fanon, like it's a hammer. I mean, yeah, it'd be awesome if Luna was secretly the stronger of the two. Subversion of tropes and all that. On the other hand, it's My Little Pony - it's simply not the kind of show that's meant to create a "right" answer to these kinds of questions and debates. Our pals at DHX Media play more or less the same game with each other all the time.

Indeed. I have on occasion taken to the Thanqol School of I'm Right Until I Wear You Down.

Should I take this as chastisement? Mild rebuke? Or just statement? While "correct" answers don't really show up - in fact, are avoided like the plague - that does not preclude an answer from beig closest to correct based on grounding in current canon. I dislike and fight against this particular bit because if canon addresses it at all, then it points towards Luna having superior magical might if only by inference. I am heavily against a point being argued as fact when it comes solely from fanon and is just so commonplace nopony questions it. No thing Should ever go unquestioned. Ever. Promulgation of a lie, therefore, bothers me on a deep and fundamental level.

I'm fully willing to admit this could just be a huge bias and blinder on my part.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think you are extrapolating a bit too much from neat ideas built out of incredibly vague and non-specific events. I mean, just for funsies, let's put the horseshoe on the other other foot:

While an interesting alternative I think we still have to go with apparent canon which would suggest that NMM could overpower Celestia and do it quickly. And that it was all according to plan is really crossing the subtle line between justified speculation into inserting one's own fanon. Now is it because Celestia on her own is just unwilling to go to the lengths needed or is simply less powerful, ehh. I myself will go with that Celestia neither wanted to nor actually could overcome her sister unaided once NMM was in play.

Celestia and Luna though might have the opposite, Luna explicitly states that Twilight took away her dark powers, this to me more then directly implies she is less powerful now. However proably back into a state of balance, ala the Sisterly Yin Yang image. Well depending on if Luna is to be considered full strength at present or not, presumably a thousand years is going to take some time close a gap there.

[SiuiS]

I'd like to think of their general strength level as non-comparable. While Celestia has bold, straightforward horsepower (tee hee) and the perception of the all-revealing light, Luna has an entirely different set of abilities.

Which one has more power? Depends on your definition.

This is a core conceit for me. I seem to have poorly conveyed it though, thank you.

I believe that Luna has a skill set more useful in short conflict. Celestia has a skill set more suited for other things. The general populous ha a hard time conceiving of power in a way that isn't directly overcoming Another, and so the skill set which more easily lends itself to that is considered "powerful".

Sora, I will comment on your stuff later but phone is on its last legs. However, we can't argue Phoe's all according to plan stace; that's the one thin utterly explicitly spelled out about the situation. Celly did indeed know how to handle this all.

[Soras Teva Gee]

In other news those that mention the Doctor forgot to mention that Octavia and Mayor Mare are also now pseudo-canon. Also its now apparently Golden "Carrot Top" Harvest which I suppose I will settle for.

I've also concluded that Time Turner is clearly the Equestrian "John Smith" alias.