[Pathfinder] The Raven Fiend {PEACH}

[Calmar]

The Raven Fiend

This black-winged creature looks like a hideous female human with the head of a crow and vicious claws instead of hands and bird's legs.

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Believe it, or not, but this picture is not my initial inspiration for this monster. However, I am very happy to have found this, because it fits perfectly.

Raven fiends, also known as raven witches or daughters of Brân, are servants of the demon queen of slaughter and destruction (that is: Brân). They are sent into the mortal world to advance the cause of their horrible mistress by bolstering her worshipers and slaughtering her opponents. Often, these creatures appear as beautiful women that infiltrate mortal society, luring mortal men into their doom.
In battle, these demons usually call upon lightning to decimate their enemies and shred their opponents to pieces with their powerful claws.

Raven Fiend__________________________CR 6
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar, shapechanger)
Init +3 Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision; Perception +11
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, telepathy 100 ft.
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AC 18 (+3 Dex, +4 natural, +1 Dodge), touch 14, flat-footed 14
hp 57 (6d10+24 HD); DR 10/cold iron or good
Immune electricity, poison
Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 16
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +7
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Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws +10 (1d6+4), bite +5 (1d8+2)
Melee 2 claws +8 (1d6+8), bite +3 (1d8+4) with Power Attack
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 23
Atk Options rage 8 rounds/day, rend (2 claws, 1d6+6)
Special Actions none
Combat Gear none
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +8):
1/day—call lightning (DC 15)
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Abilities Str 19, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 14
SQ SQ change shape (human and raven; polymorph)
Feats Dodge, Flyby Attack, Power Attack
Skills Bluff +11, Fly +12, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (planes) +10, Perception +11, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +12
Possessions none
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Murder of Crows (Su): Thrice per day, a raven fiend can summon a murder of crows. This ability works similar to a summon monster IV spell (CL 6).
Rage (Ex): A raven fiend you can enter a fearsome rage, like a 1st-level barbarian, for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + its Constitution modifier. This ability is in all regards identical to that of a 1st-level barbarian.

Raven fiends are often barbarians, sorcerers, or bards.

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The raven fiend has Good Fort and Will saves.

Its class skills and base ranks are:
Bluff +6, Craft +0, Fly +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (religion) +0, Knowledge (planes) +6, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +6, Survival +0

So far all questions have been cleared.

[Debihuman]

Very very nice. I applaud your design note in the spoiler as it makes it a LOT easier to see how you applied the skill points.

I think giving it immunity to poison doesn't make sense either ecologically or as a design feature. I admit a bit of a bias against giving poison immunity to creatures that don't use poison or have a reason to come into frequent contact with it. It doesn't need it especially since it has immunity to electricity.

A summon swarm spell doesn't allow you to summon a murder of crows; it ONLY allows for rats, bats, and spiders, so having it as a spell-like ability doesn't work. Just switch it to a Supernatural ability.

Normally, power attacks aren't noted on melee lines. (I assume you did this as a reminder to yourself). Not objecting just noting.

Otherwise, it looks good.

Shapechanger is a Subtype that any creature has the Supernatural ability to change shape. If you give it just an alter self spell at caster level X times a day then it doesn't get the subtype. Alter self spells only last 1 minute per CL so adding it 3/day since it loses its summon swarm is a fair swap.

I don't recommend giving it the supernatural ability to change shape since that is probably overpowered. However, you could create a Greater Raven Fiend with more HD, higher CR and with the Shapechanger subtype. If it can change into a Humanoid you would also have to give it armor and weapon proficiencies it can use in those forms.

Debby

[Calmar]

Thank you very much for your reply!

I think giving it immunity to poison doesn't make sense either ecologically or as a design feature. I admit a bit of a bias against giving poison immunity to creatures that don't use poison or have a reason to come into frequent contact with it. It doesn't need it especially since it has immunity to electricity.

I agree. I gave it immunity to poison, because that's listed in the demon traits, but it admittedly does not make much sense. Removed it.

A summon swarm spell doesn't allow you to summon a murder of crows; it ONLY allows for rats, bats, and spiders, so having it as a spell-like ability doesn't work. Just switch it to a Supernatural ability.

Would this wording be good?

Murder of Crows (Su): Thrice per day, a raven fiend can summon a murder of crows. This ability works similar to a summon monster IV spell.

[Debihuman]

Murder of crows looks right now. It just needs caster level. And I edited my post above to answer your other questions.

Not all demons need to be cookie cutter copies just because they share similar traits. However, this does put them slightly lower on the demon hierarchy (as it should since that's kinda their niche).

Kudos on your creature. I hope it works well in game.

Debby

[Calmar]

Thanks a lot.

My intention for the shape change ability is to make the raven fiend more interesting and flexible outside of combat. The true form should be in all regards be more powerful than the disguises as raven, or human.

I gave murder of crows a caster level of 7. I get the feeling that the ability to summon murders of crows might be a bit too powerful. Maybe I should reduce it to once per day day?

[Debihuman]

Monster Caster Levels for spell-like and supernatural abilities can be lower than the level necessary to cast the spell (See universal monster rules) . I wouldn't worry about it too much.

As to the wording: here is is with all the necessary information included. Special Abilities always have a designations Ex, Sp, or Su.

Technically, the Sp version is Alter Self and the Su ability is Change Shape, but that's semantics.

Alter Self (Sp): 3/day as a Standard Action, a raven fiend can change shape into either a human or a raven as the spells alter self and beast shape II, respectively. In raven form, it gains -2 penalty to its Strength and , a +8 size bonus to its Dexterity. CL 7.

Note this is NOT the same as the Supernatural ability. This Spell-like ability only lasts for 7 minutes each time it is used. If you want the ability to be the sort that lasts an indefinite amount of time, then it should be the Supernatural version. if it has the Supernatural ability to change shape it also gains the Shapechanger subtype. You also have to decide if it has armor and shield proficiencies. It automatically gets proficiency with simple weapons. Last of all, the raven fiend's natural armor class is better than the raven's natural armor class so that does not change. It shouldn't stack.

Change Shape (Su):3/day as Standard Action, a raven fiend may assume the form of human or a raven as the polymorph spell and beast shape II spell, respectively. In human form, the raven fiend is proficient with simple weapons. In raven form, it gains -2 penalty to its Strength and , a +8 size bonus to its Dexterity. CL 7.

The Spell-like version is significantly weaker than the Supernatural version, so you may want to keep the weaker one for the regular raven fiend and save the Supernatural version for the Greater Raven Fiend. What do you think?

Debby

[Gamer Girl]

It looks ok, but why do you want just another 'Harpy' like monster? Why not just keep it a massive demonic raven?


Why rage and call lightning? That does not exactly say 'raven' does it? First both are pure combat abilities. And I find monster that are all 'me fight and destroy' somewhat boring. It's always nice if a creature has a couple utility powers. For example, shadow powers would fit a raven nice. And if you felt the Raven Fiend just had to be a 'battlefield slaughter' type monster, you could at least make the blasting spell 'shadowblast' or such. (Though I'd go with Call Featherstorm that let the Raven Fiend fire a blast of razor sharp feathers.)


And a demon raven does kind scream for something like :

Power Word:Nevermore The target of this is prevented from taking whatever action they took the round before.

[Calmar]

Alter Self (Sp): 3/day as a Standard Action, a raven fiend can change shape into either a human or a raven as the spells alter self and beast shape II, respectively. In raven form, it gains -2 penalty to its Strength and , a +8 size bonus to its Dexterity. CL 7.

Note this is NOT the same as the Supernatural ability. This Spell-like ability only lasts for 7 minutes each time it is used. If you want the ability to be the sort that lasts an indefinite amount of time, then it should be the Supernatural version. if it has the Supernatural ability to change shape it also gains the Shapechanger subtype. You also have to decide if it has armor and shield proficiencies. It automatically gets proficiency with simple weapons. Last of all, the raven fiend's natural armor class is better than the raven's natural armor class so that does not change. It shouldn't stack.

Change Shape (Su):3/day as Standard Action, a raven fiend may assume the form of human or a raven as the polymorph spell and beast shape II spell, respectively. In human form, the raven fiend is proficient with simple weapons. In raven form, it gains -2 penalty to its Strength and , a +8 size bonus to its Dexterity. CL 7.

The Spell-like version is significantly weaker than the Supernatural version, so you may want to keep the weaker one for the regular raven fiend and save the Supernatural version for the Greater Raven Fiend. What do you think?

Debby

Difficult. Being only able to turn into a raven or a human for the duration of seven minutes at a time limits the usefulness of these abilities too much, in my opinion. Please tell me, if I underestimate the power of alter self and beast shape.
The way I understand the entry on Change Shape in the Pathfinder SRD, the ability is of infinite duration, and, in my case, the transformation would not bestow any real combat-related benefits to the raven fiend;
In human shape it gains +2 Str, but cannot use its natural attacks. Rage, summoning of crows, skills and the Power Attack feat seem to be unaffected by the new form;
In raven shape, it gains a +4 size bonus to Dexterity, a -2 penalty to Strength, and +2 to AC and attack, but can only use the bite attack of a Tiny creature. Summoning nd rage should be unaffected. Although a raven that is raging, or harasses its enemies from a safe distance might be amusing, at least as far as roleplay is concerned, the fiend would assume its true shape in battle.

What about this ability description for the SQ line (similar to that of lycanthropes): SQ change shape (human and raven; polymorph)
Or as additional spell-like abilities for the list:
At Will—alter self (human only), beast shape II (raven only)

Alternatively, if I am misjudging the two spells, the most straightforward sollution might be to simply drop the inborn ability to change shape altogether and limit it to individual raven fiends who possess levels in spellcasting classes and know the appropriate spells for their schemes.

It looks ok, but why do you want just another 'Harpy' like monster? Why not just keep it a massive demonic raven?

Why rage and call lightning? That does not exactly say 'raven' does it? First both are pure combat abilities. And I find monster that are all 'me fight and destroy' somewhat boring.

It depends on whom you ask. In Celtic mythology, ravens are connected to warfare and death. You and Poe are free to disagree, of course. You are also free to completely detest my creature concept, but this thread is about it's mechanics.

[Debihuman]

Difficult. Being only able to turn into a raven or a human for the duration of seven minutes at a time limits the usefulness of these abilities too much, in my opinion.

That should actually be plenty long actually unless you have some odd encounters planned for them.

Please tell me, if I underestimate the power of alter self and beast shape.

Okay.

The way I understand the entry on Change Shape in the Pathfinder SRD, the ability is of infinite duration, and, in my case, the transformation would not bestow any real combat-related benefits to the raven fiend;

Correct. However, the Shapechanger subtype which is added when you use Change Shape as Supernatural ability does add the simple weapons proficiency. See the Subtype.

In human shape it gains +2 Str, but cannot use its natural attacks.

Technically correct, however, the +2 Str is kinda unnecessary. It already has considerable Str. This is one of those things that I think was a bad idea. Why does being human suddenly make a creature stronger, especially if the creature's base form is better than Str 10? In my not so humble opinion, your creature already has too high a Str score and adding more is just overkill.

Rage, summoning of crows, skills and the Power Attack feat seem to be unaffected by the new form

Again correct.

In raven shape, it gains a +4 size bonus to Dexterity, a -2 penalty to Strength, and +2 to AC and attack, but can only use the bite attack of a Tiny creature. Summoning and rage should be unaffected. Although a raven that is raging, or harasses its enemies from a safe distance might be amusing, at least as far as roleplay is concerned, the fiend would assume its true shape in battle.

Not quite: "If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus." [You seem to think t is a +2 natural armor bonus but it is only +1]. HOWEVER, your creature already has a +4 natural armor bonus. Natural armor bonuses do not stack with other natural armor bonuses. So you either lose your natural armor bonus of +4 and gain +1 when you change shape or you simply keep whichever is better. It doesn't say you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor.

The natural armor it already has is better than +2 so it doesn't gain more.

It's better than +1. See above.

What about this ability description for the SQ line (similar to that of lycanthropes): SQ change shape (human and raven; polymorph)
Or as additional spell-like abilities for the list:
At Will—alter self (human only), beast shape II (raven only)

I simply don't understand why you would want alter self as an at will ability rather than polymorph. Of the two, polymorph is more advantageous. You just have to remember to add the Shapechanger subtype and simple weapon proficiency.


You either use polymorph or alter self and beast shape II, but you need to be consistent. I can't tell which one you want since you are not consistent. I also think you are missing out on how powerful polymorph is. Your creature should be +1 CR if you are making it based of polymorph. BTW, lycanthropes only reference polymorph.

I can help but I can't tell you which one is better. How much time does this creature spend in human form? If it is a lot of time, then polymorph makes more sense. If is only spends only little time in human form, then alter self makes sense. However, it doesn't really make sense to have alter self at will instead of polymorph.

Alternatively, if I am misjudging the two spells, the most straightforward solution might be to simply drop the inborn ability to change shape altogether and limit it to individual raven fiends who possess levels in spellcasting classes and know the appropriate spells for their schemes.

Of course, that is an option as well.

I can't tell you which option is the best until you decide why it even bothers to take human or raven forms?

A good monster design isn't just a stat block. How does this creature fit in with other demons? Where is it in the hierarchy? You could tie this easily to Pazuzu (from Tome of Horrors).

I'll let you tackle Gamer Girl. Though she does have a valid point. You haven't fleshed out enough of the ecology. Form follows function. Once you know where you are going with this, the design will flow a bit more organically. How long does it take to change forms? Does its equipment change with it?

Debby

[Calmar]

That should actually be plenty long actually unless you have some odd encounters planned for them.

I intend it to be more of an out-of-combat thing, actually.

Correct. However, the Shapechanger subtype which is added when you use Change Shape as Supernatural ability does add the simple weapons proficiency. See the Subtype.

Not sure about that. The succubus does not have the shapechanger subtype, either.

As an outsider, the fiend is proficient "with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry". I'd think that skill is not lost upon change of shape, is it?

All in all Pathfinder's polymorph spells are quite hazy on what qualities of your original creature type you retain in new shape...

Technically correct, however, the +2 Str is kinda unnecessary. It already has considerable Str. This is one of those things that I think was a bad idea. Why does being human suddenly make a creature stronger, especially if the creature's base form is better than Str 10? In my not so humble opinion, your creature already has too high a Str score and adding more is just overkill.

I agree with you. In my opinion, only Small creatures using th espell to assume Medium size should get a Str bonus. I was just doing it by the book.

Not quite: "If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus." [You seem to think t is a +2 natural armor bonus but it is only +1]. HOWEVER, your creature already has a +4 natural armor bonus. Natural armor bonuses do not stack with other natural armor bonuses. So you either lose your natural armor bonus of +4 and gain +1 when you change shape or you simply keep whichever is better. It doesn't say you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor.

I reckon size modifiers still apply, hence the +2 bonus to AC and attack rolls.

I simply don't understand why you would want alter self as an at will ability rather than polymorph. Of the two, polymorph is more advantageous. You just have to remember to add the Shapechanger subtype and simple weapon proficiency.

You either use polymorph or alter self and beast shape II, but you need to be consistent. I can't tell which one you want since you are not consistent. I also think you are missing out on how powerful polymorph is. Your creature should be +1 CR if you are making it based of polymorph. BTW, lycanthropes only reference polymorph.

I'm sorry for not being clear; I didn't mean to insist on either. I was suggesting possible realisations for the different forms. The first option I wrote in my last post actually uses the polymorph spell which in fact is a more elegant solution than two different spells (I thought one should use the lowest possible level of spell that's able to create an effect, therefore the two spells instead of one at first...). I'll update my first post, if the matter does not require any further discussion.

I can help but I can't tell you which one is better. How much time does this creature spend in human form? If it is a lot of time, then polymorph makes more sense. If is only spends only little time in human form, then alter self makes sense. However, it doesn't really make sense to have alter self at will instead of polymorph.

Yeah, I think I agree.

I can't tell you which option is the best until you decide why it even bothers to take human or raven forms?

A good monster design isn't just a stat block. How does this creature fit in with other demons? Where is it in the hierarchy? You could tie this easily to Pazuzu (from Tome of Horrors).

I'm no expert on th egreater demons of D&D or Pathfinder cosmology. If one were to use this creature in such a setting, it might be a common type of demon ranging in the lower echelons (according to it's relatively low base CR).

However, I create this creature for my homebrew campaign setting, as servants for the demonic power of warfare and slaughter, Brân. That is, obviously, a pretty simple and straightforward character, because we don't want to play with hidden cults and elaborate intrigues at the moment. Because I want this demonic power to have individual servants, I had to decide how to realise that. My first idea was a class or prestige class of vile raven witches that would share some of Brân's features and powers, but that created the problem of what races would become raven witches and I also found it difficult to create a class that would basically be a cross between barbarian and sorcerer. So, instead of a woman that turns into a raven horror, I decided to have a raven horror that could turn into a human.

Now, in encounters where the characters confront the followers of Brân directly, the raven fiends probably won't need to disguise themselves and will fight them directly, like a babau, or vrock that heroes encounter would.
On the other hand, in an adventure where the characters first encounter an evil spellcaster villain that they later on discover to be a servant to a demon and a fiend itself that only wears human appearance as a mask to scheme among mortals, the human shape would feature prominently and need to be of unlimited duration.

I'll let you tackle Gamer Girl. Though she does have a valid point. You haven't fleshed out enough of the ecology. Form follows function. Once you know where you are going with this, the design will flow a bit more organically. How long does it take to change forms? Does its equipment change with it?

Well, I didn't mean to come across hostile, but Gamer Girl's critique is not as constructive as you describe it. Instead it boils down to 'creatures that combine humanoid- with animal features are boring' and 'I think ravens have nothing to do with melee monsters'.

[Gamer Girl]

I intend it to be more of an out-of-combat thing, actually.

Well, I didn't mean to come across hostile, but Gamer Girl's critique is not as constructive as you describe it. Instead it boils down to 'creatures that combine humanoid- with animal features are boring' and 'I think ravens have nothing to do with melee monsters'.

I understand if you want to just make ''Harpy Copy Number Four" and a ''Pure Battlefeild Slaughter Monster''. I find both a bit boring, but if you want a Harpy Raven Monster that does 100d100 damage to foes that's fine.

You really don't like the raven shooting feathers(you know like Ye Old '90's Archangel)? I think it has more flavor.

Take one-DM-"The raven demon uses call lighting to bring down a blot of lighting'' Players-''yawn, oh ok"

Take two-DM-"The raven demon flaps it's wings and dozens of razor sharp feathers fly at you cutting through everything with supernatural demonic forces!'' Players-"Woah, on my gosh we dodge and dive for cover!"

[Debihuman]

Lemme Esplain this again:

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If you gain Change Shape with polymorph as a Supernatural Ability, you gain the Shapechanger Subtype.

Lycanthropes have Change Shape with polymorph. They also have the Shapechanger Subtype and have weapons proficiencies (note that they are also a special case since always change into the same Human form).

If you gain Change Shape with alter self, you do not get the Shapechanger Subtype.

The succubus has Change Shape with alter shape.This means a Succubus does not gain the Shapechanger Subtype, which grants Simple Weapon Proficiency. Note that succubus has no weapons.

Both the polymorph spell and the alter self spells have a duration of 1 minute per level.

IF you have the Change Shape Supernatural Ability to use either of those, you can stay in alternate form indefinitely.

If you have polymorph or alter self as a Spell-Like Ability, you are limited to the duration of 1 minute per caster level and so you need a CL.

You have to decide which version you want. There are consequences to both versions.

HOWEVER, all this is moot in light of your more recent changes. As it stands now, the raven fiend is no longer really a CR 5 creature but closer to CR 6.

It is significantly more powerful than a bearded devil and has better stats.

I'm not a big fan of creature's that have CR that is higher than HD as that frequently leads to the PCs being able to exploit any weaknesses. You might as well return the immunity to poison in that case.

What weapons can the raven fiend use in Human form? Obviously, it can use simple weapons, but you still haven't mentioned whether or not they can wear armor. It looks like they can wear armor in their fiend form as well (at least going by the picture). It appears they can use weapons instead of their claws as well (again using the picture as a guide). You might want to add as well.

Debby

[Calmar]

Ok, I'll stop to be annoying. Sorry for the mess, you're right. The succubus does not use polymorph.

I've added the polymorph ability and the shapechanger subtype to the stats.

[Debihuman]

Nope, you weren't annoying, just confused and I was trying to inject a bit of Ricky Ricardo humor there (which apparently you missed and for that I'm sorry. Ricky's catch phrase "Lucy, you has some 'splaining to do" was notorious, but you may not be as familiar with the I Love Lucy Show as I am.)

As to your creature, the only things it needs is CR 6 and to have the poison immunity returned. It is overpowered for CR 5, but without the poison immunity it is an underpowered CR 6. This is where creature design can be tricky.

The only concern I have left is that frequently with creatures that have more CR than HD, they tend to come with exploitable weaknesses. If this has one, I haven't figured it out yet. [That's a good thing]. On the other hand, I think a CR 6 party will really need those extra attacks in order to face this.

I'm not sure why you have concentration +8 (a concentration check is 10 + level of the spell) listed in the stat block next to Spell-Like abilities.

Debby

[Calmar]

Nope, you weren't annoying, just confused and I was trying to inject a bit of Ricky Ricardo humor there (which apparently you missed and for that I'm sorry. Ricky's catch phrase "Lucy, you has some 'splaining to do" was notorious, but you may not be as familiar with the I Love Lucy Show as I am.)

Yeah unfortunately I don't know that show.

As to your creature, the only things it needs is CR 6 and to have the poison immunity returned. It is overpowered for CR 5, but without the poison immunity it is an underpowered CR 6. This is where creature design can be tricky.

Sounds ok.

I'm not sure why you have concentration +8 (a concentration check is 10 + level of the spell) listed in the stat block next to Spell-Like abilities.

That's the bonus it adds when making a concentration check as per SRD, "When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type."; therefore d20 +8 (+6 for Caster Level and +2 Charisma).

[Debihuman]

Ah. You have two different caster levels listed. It says 6 in the stat block for spell-like abilities but under murder of crows, the text lists it as 7. You should fix that. The level shouldn't change between spell-like and supernatural abilities.

Debby