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    Default The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Preface/Disclaimer:
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    As it appears that the original handbook created by Little Brother will not be updated ever again, I found it a darn shame that it would most likely fade away into obscurity only to be used by me and... well no one else... Albeit I lack LB's skills with the English language I'll try my best to continue where... He(?) left off... I'll be editing the handbook a little to make it a little easier to read I suppose (no spelling changes just lay out changes) and without further ado I give you

    Before you go off and continue reading this Handbook, I'm going to note that this book uses significantly advanced high optimization, so unless you are comfortable with playing at that level of gameplay try to take this handbook with a bit of salt (or add some water, either one works really).




    The Urge to Theurge

    Introduction:
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    Magic is one of my favorite mechanics in D&D. It always has been ever since I started playing this game years ago and write down with a little confused face on my character sheet "Wizard/1". Eventually I grew to start exploring other classes that use magic like Clerics and my personal favorite class the Archivist, I regret never picking up Psionics as early as I should have because it is useful and scales a little bit better into Epic level games. Psionics scales with a thing called Manifester Level (ML) just as how Arcane and Divine scale with a thing called Caster Level (CL) learning these this feature is the first step towards becoming a Mystic Theurge.

    A Theurge in Dungeons and Dragons is a merging of two similar (or in some extreme cases vastly different) systems of casting. The most common case is the Mystic Theurge which is a fusion of Arcane casting and Divine casting. A flaw of this specific type of build is that you are effectively 1-3 levels behind in casting on one of your sides; with 1 being optimal and 3 being un-optimal. It is possible to not lose a single caster level (and thats not to hard), but most often it will be what we call a "ghost CL (or ML)" meaning it won't earn you additional casting (a higher spell level). A Major benefit of being a Theurge is that you aren't bound by the "single encounter" weakness some casters experience. You can fight almost all day and then still have enough magic to go half way into the next. Let me get this out there immediately Theurges are VERY magic intensive so if you can't handle having to prepare two spell list then you should probably stop reading.

    Effectively as a Theurge you are able to fight, fight, fight then at the end of the day teleport back to Bob's Blowing Brothel™ and then greater teleport back (Or hell, conjure up an inn or rest stop right in front of you! You're friken magical!)

    This guide or "handbook" will effectively cover the "Triumvirate of Casting" of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 ed. This includes Arcane Spellcasting, Divine Theurgy and Psionic Manifesting. I'm sure most of you understand what I mean by these styles of casting and the differences between them, so I'll cover that a little later when I actually cover magic and what you can do with it.


    Levels and Actions
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    To quote Hagrid from Harry Potter
    Quote Originally Posted by Hagrid
    You're a Wizard Harry
    Yes, you are a Wizard... only you're not... You're a little bit less and a little bit more then your average Wizard. You can cast a lot more and have a lot to cast from, however you cast these spells a little bit later then the Wizard which is viewed as a weakness. Unlike the Wizard you can overcome your weaknesses to the point where they don't even exist anymore...

    As a Theurge you're weaknesses include:

    • Gain spells 1 or more level slower (2 if you use a spontaneous caster)
    • Can only cast one or two spells each round
    • Require a level of optimization to gain full potential


    These weaknesses can be completely negated if you use certain feats and try to get the most power you can out of your Theurge through tricks. For theurge's we need to use multiple build tricks to qualify for most of our shenanigans, I'm going to divide some of these tricks into three categories: Early Entry, Utility and Casting/Manifesting just to simplify it all.

    Utility: These tricks are to be used both offensively and defensively. As a Theurge you have an expansive spell list (Have I stated this hard enough yet?) and as such you can't clutter your feat list with stuff that focus specifically on either. A Permanent re-deploy-able solution WILL always trumps a Short situational solution.

    Casting/Manifesting: These feats increase your caster level (or Manifester level), allow you to cast/manifest 2 or more spells/powers per round and allow you to pretty much fight at peak abilities. Having access to two spell list can be a con if you can only use one spell/power per round and a lot of potential is burned when you can only use one. Make sure you focus on these feats and tricks, they are most definitely your bread and butter.


    Early Entry Tricks: Popular Early Entry tricks include using Precocious apprentice(CArc) to qualify an entire spell level earlier (So you can be a Wizard/1 and a Cleric/3 to qualify earlier for the Mystic Theurge class). This goes in line with other such feats that allow for an easy (and depending on you're funds and class type) cheap spell level boost. other popular early entry feats would include Sanctum spell (+1 spell level), Improved Sigil (Krau) (+1 spell level), Earth Spell (+2 spell level), Eldritch Corruption (+2 spell level) and these are just scratching the surface! WoTC has placed dozens of tricks and methods in there books it's almost laughable. I fully approve the use of most of these exploits and tricks: Powergame on my friend!

    Through out the handbook I'll reference these and point out which belongs to which so don't worry if you can't spot it immediately.


    Legend
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    This guide is color coded for convenience. Generally speaking...
    • Dark Green If these feats are must haves if they're on the table. Supreme.
    • Deep Sky Blue Superior.
    • Blue Above average.
    • Black Average.
    • Purple Situational.
    • Red Not really you're best choice, only in this handbook to show you how bad it is.


    Sourcebook Code:
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    CAdv = Complete Adventurer
    CArc = Complete Arcane
    CC = Complete Champion
    CM = Complete Mage
    CoR = Champions of Ruin
    CoV = Champions of Valor
    CP = Complete Psionic
    CS = Complete Scoundrel
    CW = Complete Warrior
    DMG = Dungeon Master’s Guide
    DM = Dragon Magic
    Draco = Draconomicon
    Dung = Dungeonscape
    ECS = Eberron Campaign Setting
    EoE = Exemplars of Evil
    FC1 = Fiendish Codex I
    FC2 = Fiendish Codex II
    FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
    Frost = Frostburn
    LM = Liber Mortis
    MH = Miniatures Handbook
    MIC = Magic Item Compendium
    MM = Monster Manual
    MM2 = Monster Manual 2
    MoI = Magic of Incarnum
    OA = Oriental Adventures
    PGtF = Player’s Guide to Faerun
    PH = Planar Handbook
    PHB = Player’s Handbook
    PHB2 = Player’s Handbook 2
    RoD = Races of Destiny
    RoE = Races of Eberron
    RoS = Races of Stone
    RotD = Races of the Dragon
    RotW = Races of the Wild
    Sand = Sandstorm
    Sharn = Sharn, City of Towers
    SK = Serpent Kingdoms
    SpC = Spell Compendium
    SS = Savage Species
    ToB = Tome of Battle
    ToM = Tome of Magic
    UA = Unearthed Arcana
    Una = Unapproachable East
    Web = Web Enhancement (along with link)
    XPH = Expanded Psionic Handbook


    "What CAN I do with my magic?"
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    Preface to Spellcasting:
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    Most Spellcasters and Manifesters only have one toolboxes to work with. You have two. With access to spells like Disintegrate, Dominate Monster, Harm, True Resurrection, Temporal Acceleration and Assimilate you are most definitely a top contender at you're table. Some of these require saves (actually all of the listed ones do... except for Temporal Acceleration). There are some spell combos that only YOU can use (due to your large list) that completely take away the opponents options for a saving throw, but that will be in another section all together.

    Most player's believe in 7 different playstyles: Battlefield Control, Skill Monkey, Blasting, Healing, Buffing, Debuffing and Minion-mancy. I personally don't believe that a Theurge should be blasting or doing skill monkey work. In essence you can do all of these things without much effort OR have someone else do these things for you... Generally damage dealing in combat is viewed as... a little weak since an enemy with 1hp can deal effectively the same as an enemy with full HP, so blasting spells aren't good for that exact reason. If you can cast a spell or manifest a power that makes the enemy get swallowed up by the earth or just plain disintegrated then you are better off casting that. Never aim for half-health, always aim for an absolute kill. So I'll just outright remove Blasting and Skill Monkey. Mid combat healing is generally viewed as sub-optimal since it is better to take 0 damage then take 1 damage for obvious reasons, it is also unfortunate that a level 1 orc warrior can deal enough damage to make a 5th level Cleric's Cure Serious Wounds irrelevant. Besides this role can be entirely replaced with a wand of lesser vigor, or an eternal wand of cure light wounds or something like that, however some people would disagree on that matter so I'll let you (the reader) decide if mid-combat healing is optimal or not: In this writers opinion it is. I will acknowledge that having it as a back up option is INCREDIBLY useful, so having the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells is amazingly useful if you fall asleep at the wheel. For now let's discuss these 4 remaining styles.



    Battlefield Control- This style is all about changing factors in the conflict. Flanking, Crowd Control and if you want to immediately end the conflict: Destroy the environment. Most monsters can't survive underwater and the few that can can't survive if you close them off from that environment. Battlefield control is supposed to use game mechanics like suffication, starvation and drowning to kill the enemy as neatly as possible. I'll explore this more in depth later in Spell Combos.

    Buffing- Everyone should know what buffing is. Effectively you are making the Fighter into a Colossal sized, nigh invulnerable war machine and I'm sure you know that 5 war machines is better then 1 war machine. For buffing spells I recommend looking into the Mass spells, Polymorph spell. Seriously, a +4 Str, Dex & Con, Colossal sized Fighter using a Wall of Iron as a shield is pretty friken awesome sight.

    Debuffing- See that Fighter over there? Imagine him without all his muscles, his sword, his armor, him hunched over, falling over himself, blind, deaf, stunned, poisoned, dazed and about to lose his lunch... Did it? He's not so scary after all that now is he? That is debuffing at it's most extreme. Leaving your opponent with 1 level, 1 str, dex, con and blinded just for good measure.

    Minion-mancy- Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Gate just to name a few spells that help in this style. Effectively Minion-mancy is you're method of gaining an army and Buffing is making that army a hundred times better. If you've decided to go with an Arcane/Psionic style I seriously recommend picking up the Egotist power Fusion. It allows you to more or less turn into a gestalt character. Now imagine doing this with a creature like a Solar. This grants you temporary access to 20th level Cleric spells, which grants you access to a 3rd spell list.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-12-24 at 10:36 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]


    Races, Stats, Classes and Spell Combinations

    Ability Scores:
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    Below are some general things in regards to both physical and mental stats, however please keep in mind when choosing your build that although it is generally preferred to be SAD (Single Ability Dependent) it is alright to be DAD (Dual Ability Dependent) however once you get to MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent [3+]) you need to sit down and count to 10.

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    Physical stats
    Strength: The funny thing about being a Mystic Theruge is that your most likely a Wizard, you follow the same rules as a Wizard... Dump Str you have magic to hold your stuff, hell if you ever feel like getting into a fist fight use Divine Power. As long as you can carry 20lbs you're fine.
    Dexterity: Remember that thing I said about effectively being a Wizard? Yeah Dexterity is a good stat. Helps with your AC, Ranged touch attacks, reflex saves and most importantly: Your Initiative. I recommend at least putting a 14 or a 16 if you can REALLY spare it, if you can't then just putting an 12 in this is fine.
    Constitution: Constitution is an amazing stat, your a Theurge so chances are you are going to be multiclass between a bunch of d4's to d6's. It's helps determine your Fortitude saves, your HP, and your Concentration skill checks. As with Dexterity, anything above a 12 is good, but you usually want it to be higher for more HP as you level up. Generally, you want a beneficial modifier on this stat.

    Mental stats
    To summarize, pick the two logical stats and ignore the last one. Sometimes you can get by with 3 then that is just peachy. So I'll just list the most awesome ways to do this...

    SAD: Put your highest ability score in your casting stat. (18 prefered)
    DAD: Put your 2 highest ability scores in your casting stats. (16-17 in secondary stat)
    MAD: Put your 3 highest ability scores in your casting stats. (Generally avoided)

    A lot of game mechanics are based on Intelligence (Int) so most people would agree that it is best to have a high intelligence score. Intelligence dictates your skill points and you're knowledge's. If you are a Wizard then it dictates how high of a spell level you can have and can dictate how high the DC for your spells are. I'm not saying that you should ignore stats like Charisma or Wisdom. Charisma is useful because it increases you're checks for skills like Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device and Wisdom is useful if you are using Divine Theurgy, it helps with you're perception skills (Listen & Spot) which are always useful.


    The Classes:
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    Arcane Casters
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    Base Classes
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    Wizard: Higher level spells, Variation, access to highly advertised "Schrodinger's Wizard", can easily gain enough spell slots per day to be able to out spell even a Sorcerer with ACF, more or less this is what your looking for so pretty much. Yes, Yes a thousand times yes! [PHB]

    Sorcerer: Slow spell Progression, limit to spells known effectively a Wizard with a worse casting stat, less spells, and completely void of the ultimate purpose of Arcane Magic (IMO): Variation. The only reason this is purple is because it is... decent if you want to try your hand at a Sorcdin gish combo type thing... I've never seen a good build for it though that gets you double nines without using the debatable legal Legacy Champion. [PHB]

    Bard: Qualifies you for Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist, but as it is? No... This writer disagrees with Tarquin [PHB]

    Wu-jen: Some would view these as effectively oriental Wizards (because that is what they are) but honestly? compared to Wizard they just don't keep up, not because the class is bad but because of its spell list. Its just not what we're looking for in a Theurge but that doesn't mean you should completely dismiss it, in fact there is a very interesting handbook currently in creation here on the playground and hopefully after the handbook is complete I can change its ranking... [CArc]

    Warmage/Dread Necromancer: These class can be paired together due to them possessing the same flaw that makes them undesirable for Theurging, lack of variability. Your Arcane Side (If you choose so) should effectively be a powerful toolbox that can assist you in solving your adventuring problems at any time, these two classes spell list are just to limited to work with and there Charisma dependency makes them even less desirable...[CArc/HoH respectively]

    Beguiler: This class unlike Warmage/Dread Necromancer is Int dependent meaning that if paired with the Wizard for an Ultimate Magus build it would be much more effective. This combination is especially effective if you are a Specialist Wizard as it allows you to ban Illusion and most likely Evocations without worrying about losing out on the good spells... I said THE GOOD SPELLS (You bet I'm talking to you Evocations) [PHB2]

    Duskblade: I will be the first to admit that I kind of hate this class... I personally view it as unworthy of being on this list however it IS an Arcane base class so it kind of HAS to be here... [PHB2]


    Fast progression classes
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    Nar Demonbinder:Not as good progression as the SC, but really, what did you expect for something that is free. The spell list is awesome. Works for a Cha-SAD build. [Warning: Forgotten Realms specific] [UE]

    Sublime Chord: Honestly, fast progression class for the most part ALL deserve to be DeepSkyBlue but this one? Friken amazing. The requirements are a little thematically and pushy which explains why its not DarkGreen but WOW is it trying to... works very well with Cha-SAD classes like Nar Demonbinder however it is generally more accessible then Nar Demonbinder due to not being setting specific. [CArc]

    Beholder Mage: Yes, Yes, Yes, literally there are just so many cheesy ways to get into this prestige class its not even funny. However this is generally not allowed at well ANY tables, however if your DM is allowing you (highly unlikely) then take it and get access to 9th level spells at 14 if used in combination with another class later mentioned... [LoM]


    Divine Casters
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    Base Classes
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    Cleric: Domain access, effectively as good as a Wizard without the Spellbook. Most notable tricks are DMM Persistomancy. VERY good choice for a Divine side. The Cleric is infamous for its access to phenomenal tricks that allow it to gain access to high spell levels as easily as the Ardent. Pretty awesome choice if I say so myself... [PHB]
    • Evangelist Cleric: Spontaneous cleric with spells known mostly based on whatever deity you worship. Stupidly powerful using Pantheon rules, given that you gain a crap-ton-and-a-half domains. Also, SAD. And makes the Favored Soul join the Sorcerer crying in a corner. [DM#311]


    Druid: Great class, a Tier 1 caster. Spell list is a little better then I previously thought. But honestly? The 2 largest gems on this class is access to Arcane Hierophant and Wild Shaping. With Arcane Hierophant you are capable attaining 9s with great easy. [PHB]

    Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters, except somehow worse... Honestly I'm surprised at WoTC, how did you screw this up? [CD]

    Spirit Shaman: Acceptable and has its uses. Access to the Druid list which is always good. It effectively functions like a Sorcerer in that it is able to spontaneously cast spells... wait... Do I see a little gem? OH! It gets Wizard progression and can change it's spells known per day? Whats this!? It can also prepare those spells known with metamagic so that it doesn't have to wait a friken full round just to cast a spell? This is actually better then the Sorcerer... yet... is somehow worse... It's class features are crap, but honestly? You're going in as lead and turning into gold so why care? Definitely a solid black choice, but if your DM is allowing you to take something better, I will personally drive to your house and kick your dog.[CD]

    Shugenja: Effectively the oriental version of favored soul, not any better unfortunately... [CD]

    Archivist: MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh this Class, where do I begin? Well first of all this class functions effectively on its own so Theurging can only make it better, you are pretty much a Wizard with Divine spells. In all honesty this class would be superior to the Cleric if not for DMM... What really makes this class shine is because its free [HoH]


    Fast progression classes
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    Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon. You absolutely cannot go wrong. Only downside is you can't get Dweomerkeeper, or steal SLAs, but those are unneeded if you're doing it right. [CD]

    Divine Crusader: Harsh prerequisites but ultimately the same as Ur-Priest, only it still allows you to access Dweomerkeeper... OH and it you can only cast Domain Spells... [CD]

    Apostle of Peace: This is IMO the single worst Fast progression class in all of 3.5, not because of its class features, but because of its prerequisites... This classes only saving grace is that you can potentially build it so that It doesn't need anything but 8 hours of sleep and its ready to blow up on you. [BoED]


    Psionic Manifesters
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    Base Classes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Regular Cerebremancers are just fine as well. Even if the Psion side doesn't hit 9ths, you still get access to great buffs like Synchronicity, Schism and Hustle that can assist the wizard side, plus Int synergy. And of course, you can very quickly pump your Psion side up via Mental Pinnacle if needed. You can even fire off Mental Pinnacle, and use all your free power points to bake a ton of Soul Crystals for you and your party.

    Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +4 is perfectly viable, and has much more synergy than say Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10. (Or you can use Erudite - even transferring some of your wizard spells to your psionic side to eliminate the need for material components.)

    Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +6 works great too, and keeps you from being 3 levels behind on both sides.


    Psion: The funny thing I learned about Psionics is that you don't NEED 9's for them (I mean its damn impressive to have) but its not a requirement for your Psionic/X. Anyway, Telepath is a seriously great addition to any theurge build do to powers like Schism which can be used to just destroy the Action economy, this overcomes the most infamous weakness of the Mystic Theurge. The rare ability to get off more then 2 spells/powers in a single round.[XPH]

    Wilder: Think sorcerer but for Psionics... Honestly if you want to be a Charisma based caster, I seriously recommend going with Wilder[XPH]

    Erudite: Effectively the Wizard-Psion, with almost unlimited access to all Psionic powers you'd think that the Erudite would be DarkGreen? Well the Erudite is good, just not better then the Psion due to limited access to Disciplines. You see, the Erudite can gain access to all general Psionic powers, however it can unfortunately only gain access to 8th level Discipline powers. With an Alternate Class Feature you can have an Erudite be a "Theurge-In-A-Can".[Cpsi]
    • StP Erudite: If you truly want to be an Erudite consider the StP Erudite as it allows you to cast Wizard/Sorcerer Spells as an Erudite. For more information on this Alternate Class feature please refer to this mind's eye article.


    Psychic Warrior: Erm... See Duskblade and you'll know why this is Purple, The Psychic Warrior is shockingly enough, superior to the Duskblade however its lack of variability makes it very weak for a Theurge.[XPH]


    Fast Progression Classes
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    Ardent: While not exactly a fast progression class the class can effectively be a fast progression class using certain optimizing tricks. This is due to how the Ardent learns powers, by taking Practiced Manifester you can effectively learn higher level powers at lower levels. However the reason this isn't exactly DarkGreen is because of the small list of powers the Ardent has available and the fact you can only take Practiced Manifester once for Ardent.[Cpsi]


    Spell Combos:
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    To be announced


    Races:
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    This is Dungeons and Dragons my friend, there hundreds of racial choices however which ones are the best to gain the title of "Theurge"? Well after many years we've taken the time to point out some of the finer racial choices so you don't have to wrack your mind on this one.

    LA +0
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    Illumian: You have the easiest time entering early. Best race, hands down. I prefer Naenhoon, for ease of early entry, but the Krau-based ones have some nice bonuses, too.

    Kobolds: Ah, Kobolds, I love them and all the cheese that accompanies them. Probably won't fly, but if your DM is allowing you to play as a Venerable Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Desert Kobold then take it.

    Human: It’s a Human... You know? WoTC favorite race... Bonus feats are amazing in Theurge builds but there some better options.

    Elf: Normally, I hate elves, but Gray Elves get a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to mostly dump stats, AND you get access to the Elven Generalist. Good, really good.

    Lesser Aasimar: Bonus to two of your most important stats? Yes, please!

    Dragonborn: These guys are an odd lot. They’re okay on a lot, but far from ideal. Stick this on an elf, though, and these guys are great.

    Magic-blooded: A penalty to wisdom. Only think about if you’re going something like Archivist/Sublime Chord. Otherwise, forget it exists.

    Unseelie Fey: See above. Also, +2 Dex, -2 Con hurts, unless...

    Arctic: +2 Con, -2 Dex, resistance to cold, couple other goodies. 95% of the time, Con is vastly more important than Dex. Also, makes Grey Elves actually really good. +2 Int, -2 Str is a GREAT trade. Dragon material, so might not be an option.


    LA +1 templates are reasonable if buy back is in place. I'd recommend you never take anything bigger then a +1 LA since at level 3 you would be going into your Theurge Class

    LA +1
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    White Dragonspawn: This template is only really good when applied to a Kobold trying to achieve effective godhood. With a +7 Natural Armor, a Fly speed, a Natural weapon, a Breath Weapon, a free Sorcerer caster level its no wonder this template is banned at most tables... all of this power easily obtained at a simple, cheap and easily bought back level adjustment of 1... You also gain a bonus to your Physical ability scores (+2 Dex and Con)... the largest flaw I've seen is the Death Throes ability tied to it making it a little hard to be resurrected if the unlikely is to occur

    Primordial Half-Giant: LA 1 for -2 Strength, -2 dexterity, +4 intelligence, and +4 charisma? At will invisibility? Helloooo, nurse! If LA buy-off is allowed, you want this. Otherwise, the LA hurts enough that it is merely average. Any Wizard(Or Sublime Chord. Or sorcerer, I guess if you like that)/Cha-based Divine MUST use this, especially if you use Magic-Blooded, too.

    Mulhorandi Divine Minion: This template is amazing. It grants you fear immunity and wild shaping as an 11th level Druid, the down side is that you become an Outsider and on the even worse side you are Extraplanar, meaning a dismissal can ruin your entire week... But honestly, the ability to Wild Shape without being a druid is just too priceless. If you are going to take this template, I personally recommend becoming a Divine Minion of Thoth since he grants you, in my opinion the best shapes. If you wish to learn more about the template, check it out online. The only reason I can see personally for taking this would be for getting Aberrant Wildshape and Frozen Wildshape to expand your crappy and limited list. If you are taking this for a full casting Arcane Heirophant build this becomes DarkGreen easily.

    Most other races are eh at best. Avoid LA like the plague in most cases. You lose caster levels as is, you can't afford more.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-12-25 at 09:23 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]


    The Bare Bones of your Build

    Yes, like one of my favorite characters (Tsukiko) if you've read this far into the handbook you've already written Wizard3/Cleric3 onto your character sheet but I recommend you get your eraser handy, because your gonna regret it if you think the peak of Theurgy is simply attained at level 16


    Alternate Class features:
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    Yep, I'm pretty sure it shocked you to figure out that multiclassing classes allowed you more access to more alternate class features... To save you the horrid grace of having to dumpster dive for all the good Alternate Class features we decided to save you some time and make you a kick ass list to go with it... Hell we actually listed a pair of Alternate Class features earlier in the Handbook

    There are A LOT of Alternate Class Features and we only want the best
    [Warning: Best is variable due to writer changing his opinion on certain ACF]

    Wizard:
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    Domain Specialist: If your DM is allowing you to take this do it. If you are not taking this ACF you better have a damn good reason...

    Focused Specialist: Most Wizards wouldn't take this ACF unless they are specializing in Divination. As a Theurge you are allowed... NEIGH! ENTITLED! To ban Schools of magic, I recommend banning Enchantments, Necromancy and even Abjuration is acceptable to ban. You are most likely going to specialize in Conjuration since this works in combination with another Alternate Class feature.

    Spontaneous Divination: You are the effectively God (if built properly). God is to be all knowing, Spontaneous Divination helps you to be all knowing. Take. This. NOW!. However it is to know that most Theurgic builds don't take Wizard to 5th but thats up to you if you think its worth it.

    Elven Generalist: This is the only reason to be an elf. If you are one, take this.

    Immediate Magic: This one is hard to color, because of variation. to summarize, if your playing a Conjurer this is immediately DarkGreen pretty much anything else makes this black.


    Cleric:
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    Cloistered Cleric: Lore, a Free Domain, More skill points, more Spells, and friken Lore! Your God would be disappointed if you didn't take this Alternate Class Feature and I would be disappointed in you as well if you didn't.

    Divine Restoration: Trades your Domain power for the ability to spontaneously cast Restoration spells... I love this Alternate Class feature... If you've taken Cloistered Cleric and your opposite Theurge class is giving you all knowledges then it is completely reasonable to sacrifice the Knowledge Domain granted power. (however that loss in caster level is quite a painful sacrifice...)

    Spontaneous Domain: Ah, variability... You need more of this my friend and this helps you get it. You're effectively trading your ability to spontaneously cure/inflict for the ability to spontaneously cast one of your domain spells. Lets face it, You are God. This helps you be God.

    Divine Magician: This is pretty much the "make your own domain" Instead of gaining access to a Domain power you are allowed to add 1 Enchantment, Necromancy and Abjuration spell at each level to your spell list, granted this is from the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell list but we all have to make sacrifices...


    Feats:
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    Early Qualification feats [To be expanded]
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    Precocious apprentice: PHENOMENAL early entry trick for Wizards however it loses its worth after a while, but this doesn't overall effect it that negatively. This however is negated as an early entry trick due to a ruling by WoTC however debatably when used with Versatile Spellcaster this becomes a powerful early entry despite how terrible Sorcerers are for Theurgist. [CArc]

    Earth Spell: Early entry shenanigans allowing you to treat your 1st level spells as 2nd level spells for class requirements. This feat in combination with certain other feat can allow you to access 9th level spells early. I'm curious if I can put this feat in platinum colored with people still able to read it... [RoS]

    Heighten Spell: You know that super combo I mentioned earlier? Yeah this is a piece of it... Both Earth Spell and Heighten Spell become DarkGreen when used to create the Super Combo. [PHB]

    Sanctum Spell: Ah, sweet, sweet early entry... This makes builds for Favored Soul/Sorcerers possible by treating your spell as 1 level higher then normal... Yeah so your 1st level spells are effectively treated as 2nd level spells thus qualifying you for prestige class requiring 2nd level spells.

    Southern Magician: Its an early entry trick just like Precocious Apprentice, however it somehow still manages to maintain its uses. Once per day per 2 caster levels you can cast one Arcane Spell as a Divine spell and vice versa, very good if your DM won't allow you to use Alternate Spell Source. [RoF]

    Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots): And Open Lesser Chakra(Feet) give you evasion to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist. If you are going that way, you had better take these. If not, forget them, take two levels of Divine Oracle if you need to. [MoI]

    (Planar) Touchstone: I recommend the Catalogs of Enlightenment, Allows you access to a Cleric Domain, this can potentially help you achieve a multitude of prerequisites for prestige classes. This list might also help you in finding just the right prerequisites, but most of the time you are going to go with the Catalogs of Enlightenment. [PLH]


    Wizard feats [To be expanded]
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    Spell Mastery: This feat is ALRIGHT by itself but the real reason you're taking this is so you can access Uncanny Forethought. [PHB]

    Uncanny Forethought: You are literally Schrodinger's Wizard now... Only instead of JUST being a Wizard you are also a Cleric/Psion/Incarnum user/Invoker/Binder/Truenamer/etc. [EoE]


    Cleric feats [To be expanded]
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    Extend Spell: Very useful but it truly becomes more relevant when you meet its bigger brother... [PHB]

    Persistent Spell: Meet Extend Spell's older brother, With this single feat alone you can legitimately make your entire party obsolete, but I know you wouldn't do that. [CArc]

    Divine Metamagic: I will just quote the Cleric handbook on this feat. [CD]

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    This feat is amazing. A cleric without Divine Metamagic is like a druid without Natural Spell. It might as well be a part of the class features. Divine Metamagic, when chosen, can apply to any metamagic spell you have, which makes it the most versatile feat I know. Not to mention its power. You do have to know the metamagic feat in question, but that's minor compared to what you can do with it. The safest option is to talk to your DM and determine what you can and cannot do with it and what limits, if any, your DM will place on methods to obtain extra turn attempts to fuel this feat. Take this at least once, possibly more than once, depending on the build.
    ...Yeah... It is THAT good... You're part Cleric. Cleric feats are amazing...


    Reach Spell: Touch range spells gain a 30ft range to them for 2 spell levels... Eh.... Oh! You're a Cleric? Take it and DMM it. Makes your spell list a bit more flexible. Down right awesome if used in combination with... [CD]

    Chain Spell: Chain spell! Ah... How entertaining it is cast a spell that bounces off multiple people? Much more powerful if you mix it with Reach Spell since now it can potentially convert your entire spell list into a long ranged, bouncing magical ball of death for just a +5 spell level (AHAHAHAHA! DMM MAKES IT NOTHING!). [CArc]


    Druid Feats [To be expanded]
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    Natural Spell: Yep! It's another feat that is so good, so easy to implement that it should have just been a class feature... The ability to be a bear that cast spells is just to hard to pass up, so I recommend that you don't. If you are dead set on being a Wild Shaping Super Theurge, I offer you this feat so that your dreams might (JUST MIGHT) come true. [Core]

    Dragon Wildshape: Adds a whole bunch of Dragons to your list of Wild shaping options. Definitely Dark Green if you are a Divine Minion. Draco

    Frozen Wildshape: Take it. Become the 12 headed Cryohydra. Unleash raw death upon all who oppose you! Definitely Dark Green if you are a Divine Minion... Which I'm not entirely sure works for the Divine Minion since you can't really get Huge Wild Shape... Eh... I'd be willing to argue that since Divine Minion lets you Wild Shape as an 11th level Druid that levels in Arcane Heirophant would allow you to get Huge sized Wild Shapes... Tough call... [Frost]

    Assume Supernatural Ability: Utterly broken if used as a Druid, but just as useful if you are a Divine Minion wishing to expand his/her list of options. [SS]


    Universal Feats [Awesome for any Spellcaster]
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    Invisible Spell: This spell, as the name intends, makes the spells effects that you cast invisible... Any Spell... Hmm... Summons? Yep! Illusions? Yep! Invisible? Yep! The best thing is that this is a +0 Spell level increase meaning you can add it to all your spells. Most DM's will outright ban the extreme shenanigans, but still, a fun spell

    Craft Contingent Spell: If your DM lets you take this feat, you are set for life when it comes to combat. My favorite contingent trigger is "When a weapon is drawn" or "When [Insert casters name here] is bloodied". Since you have "Raise Dead" (or should) It would totally be reasonable for you to Contingency that... Or Revivify... which ever [CArc]

    Extraordinary Spell Aim: AHAHAHAHAHA! It's either this, Sculpt Spell, or taking levels in Archmage if you want to totally screw an enemy caster with an Anti-Magic field. Makes for a deadly combination if used with Forcecage, but to be fair Forcecage combined with a lot of stuff is just overpowered... Just like this feat! [CA]

    Sculpt Spell: Change any area spell into another area (most likely Spread) for a +1 spell level. Prepare to dodge books if you use this for Anti-Magic Field. [Carc]

    Quicken Spell: The original economy annihilator. Cast a spell as a swift action for only a +4 Spell level. [Core]

    Dragonwrought: For anything else but a Kobold, this is a red for obvious reasons (they can't take it), but a +3 bonus to all 3 of your mental stats for a single feat? Yes! Personally, I am a great fan of using Sorcerer (despite how terrible it is for being a Theurge with it), but with this? It's not to bad if you template it to bajesus and back (Dragonspawn and Divine Minion if you really wanna go there). This build will be discussed later of course... But for now? Just think of all the wondrous things you can do with Dragonwrought... It's lovely... Isn't it? [RoTD]

    Sudden Silent/Stilled Spell: This feat is incredibly useful, but highly untrustworthy... On one hand, you have a 1 shot "Get out of Grapple free card", on the other hand, you should have Freedom of Movement or have Psionics making this fairly moot... Either way? This feat still remains useful even if you have those two options in your backpocket. [CArc]



    Psiotheurgy
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    In Dragon Magazine issue #349, they had a special article on Arcane-Psionic Theurgy which greatly complimented the power of both of these styles of casting... err... Manifesting... Whatever... Without further ado~ I introduce you to the gems of Psiotheurgy!

    Psiotheurgist: Effectively a psionic version of Theurgic Specialist and admittedly its superior. With a Prerequisites of 1 Spell Focus, 1st Manifest/Spell this is definitely a must for your classic Cerebremancer and if Dragon Magazine is on the table. [DM#349]

    Cannibolize Spell: A really interesting option that allows you to transfer a Spells Energy into Psionic Energy. By sacrificing a spell, you can gain that spells level x 1.5 in Power points rounded down. An interesting build with StP Erudite occurs here in that you can tear down your spells to power your powers that can be converted into spells as well creating an interesting and unique option here. Unfortunately the trade back isn't entirely equivalent here making this a lame option in the long run. Also the fact that you can't break down the spell unless you can manifest a power of the same level (ex. If you can cast 5th level spells and manifest 4th level powers you can only break down a 4th level and lower spell). [DM #349]

    Psiomancer: Solid Black option. Allows you to spend power points for the day to prepare extra spells for the day, however the conversion is a little ridiculous (Spell level x 2 +1? Really?), but personally, I'd just use the extra spell slot as a blank spell slot for the use of Uncanny Forethought or any other form of Spontaneous spellcasting. The downside is that you can only have a single extra spell slot and it has the same weakness as Cannibalize Spell (ex. You cannot sacrifice 9 PP for a 4th level spell if you can only manifest 3rd level powers).

    Mystic Focus: This is, in my opinion, the most situational feat that you could ever select from this article. As a swift action you can regain your Psionic Focus by sacrificing a 1st level spell without having to make a concentration check. Long story short, totally not worth it in the end since you can't Quicken anything to this, thus limiting your action economy abuse. If you seriously want to actually go about this option, I suppose you can for Metapsionic usage, but in my experience? Totally not worth it.

    Hypnotic Focus: I laughed so hard at this feat... "Autohypnosis is always a feat for you" (which it should be if you are a self-respecting Psionicist) and you gain a +2 bonus to Autohypnosis... Ugh... Bartender! Get me a double order of Tea and Terran Brandy! Minus the Tea!


    Surge of Theurgy:
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    In Dragon Magazine Issue #325 there was a special article called "Surge of Theurgy" which featured dozens of feats that more or less pimped out Mystic Theurges. Most of these abilities were kind of crappy... however there were a few gems that stood out and shined bright enough to blind us... however as these options are Dragon Magazine chances are more DMs will knee jerk ban it.

    Alternative Spell Source: This feat is what separates the Theurgist from the Wizards... If Dragon Magazine is on the table, take this feat. This metamagic allows you to prepare Arcane Spells as Divine spells and vice-versa. It also allows for early entry in almost every Arcane-Divine Theurge Prc class. This feat lowers the caster level of the altered spell by by 1 caster level and to add to that this feat effectively loses a LOT of power when Divine Metamagic is off the table effectively turning this feat into a Blue. [DM#325]

    Theurgic Specialist: Pretty much when you're casting a spell from your specialist school (Meaning you are most-likely cheesing it up as a Focused Specialist/Divine Magician), You combine all of your spellcasting class's caster levels. Pretty awesome on certain builds, down right DarkGreen on an Ur-Wizard potentially giving the caster an infinite caster level (for Evocation specialist) allowing you to just Blasphemy everything that tries to threaten you. [DM#325]

    Druidic Theurgy: This is more or less a duplicate of Theurgic Specialist however it only applies to spells that you have in common on the Druid Spell list, it adds both caster levels together for these spells. Fairly awesome if you build your Theurge properly.

    Easy Metamagic: This feat as been mentioned time and time again and why shouldn't it be? I mean lets take a small look at it.

    Choose any metamagic feat you already have. When preparing or casting spells modified by that Metamagic, lower the spell slot cost by one. You can never reduce the spell slot cost lower then one for the actual spell level.
    Persistent Spell and Quicken spell are 2 metamagics that you would want to apply this to. This really gets cheesy when Alternate Spell Source is in play, allowing you access to copious amounts of Metamagic reduction. If only you could make a spell count as both an Arcane and a Divine spell...


    Psi-Spell Feats:
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    Dragon Magazine issue #313 introduces a series of feats called Psi-Spell feats. These feats require both Arcane casting and Psionic manifesting and effect them in particular ways. Despite these feats being originally designed for the Mind Mage prestige class presented in the same issue, it is recommended that you highly consider these feats as they are a welcome addition to any Psionic Theurgist arsonal. To apply a Psi-Spell you must expend 3 PP x Spell level and to apply it to a power you must expend 1 spell per level of the power (example acid arrow would cost 3 pp while a acid missile would cost a 2nd level spell), this applies to all powers unless listed otherwise.

    Agitated Causticity: When casting/Manifesting a Spell/Power with the Acid descriptor you to deliver a cumulative -1 AC penalty for every 5 points of acid damage delivered to the target. This also adds a fortitude to the spell at a DC equal to the spells original DC. Pre: Any 2 spells with the acid descriptor, Matter Agitation.

    Astral Fire: The target is allowed no save for this effect. This Psi-Spell can be applied to any spell/power with the Fire descriptor. For your casting modifier rounds the target recieves 5 points of fire damage each round. Pre: Any 2 spells with the Fire descriptor, Any 2 powers with the Fire descriptor.

    Bioelectrical Surge: This can only be applied to a spell/power with the electric descriptor. Your opponent takes -2 dexterity damage for every 10 points of electricity damage. The target is allowed a save for each 10 points of damage. Any 2 spells with the electricity descriptor, Control body

    Solid Freeze: Applied to a Spell/Power with the cold descriptor. A Fortitude save is offered to the target where upon failure the target is completely immobilized where as on a success the target moves at half speed regardless this last for 1d4 rounds. A full round strength check to break free is available at the DC for the Spell/Power. During this each subject incased is reduced by a hardness of 5. 4 * Spell level in PP for spells, 2 * Power level in Spell level for Powers. Pre: Any 2 spells with the Cold descriptor, Control Flame

    Elemental Flare: When you take this feat you must select one elemental descriptor and increase the Dice size (Example d4>d6>d8>d10>d12>d20). This Psi-Spell can only be applied to that one descriptor. 4 * Spell level in PP for spells, 2 * Power level in Spell level for Powers. Pre: Agitated Causticity, Astral Fire, Bioelectrical Surge, or Solid Freeze.

    Dual-Plane Summons: When casting a Summon Monster spell you may manifest Astral Construct during the casting at ˝ pp to add Menu abilities to the summoned monster. Pre: Ability to cast Summon Monster 1-9, Ability to manifest Astral Construct.

    Harden Energy: When casting/manifesting a spell/power with an energy descriptor you may convert up to ˝ of total dice into Force damage. This portion of damage overcomes all energy resistance but SR is still applicable if the base spell/power allows SR. Pre: Any force power, any spell with an energy descriptor.

    Bull Blast: When casting/manifesting a spell/power adjusted by Harden Energy you may also perform a bullrush to all creatures within the spells range. These spells push the creature out of its range. The Bull Rush has a bonus equal to the DC of the Spell/Power +1 per damage die. Pre: Harden Energy.

    Concussive Blast: For every 3 PP or 1 Spell level sacrificed Concussive Blast ands 1 more die of force damage to a maximum of ˝ the maximum base (for example you can spend a maximum of 15 PP to increase a Fireballs damage by 5 dice), This can only be applied to a Spell/Power with an energy descriptor. Pre: Harden Energy.




    Dual-Progression Prestige Classes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren/Tyndmyr/Arcanist
    Mystic Theurge (DMG): Arcane/Divine
    Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane
    Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
    Mind Mage (DM #313): Psionic/Arcane
    Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
    Green Whisper (DM#311): Bard/Druid
    Psychic Theurge (Mind's Eye): Divine/Manifester
    Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
    Yathrinshee(PGtF): Arcane/Divine.
    Arcane Hierophant (RoTW): Wild Shaping/Arcane/Divine
    Eldritch Disciple (CM): Invoke/Divine
    True Necromancer (LM): Arcane/Divine.
    Soulcaster (MoI): Meldshaping/Arcane
    Soul Manifester (Mind's Eye) Meldshaping/Psionics,
    Noctumancer (ToM): Mysteries/Arcane
    Anima Mage/Priest/Manifester (ToM) Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Manifesting
    Tenebrous Apostate (ToM): Binding/Divine
    Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB): Arcane/Initiating
    Ruby Knight Windicator (ToB): Divine/Initiating


    Theurge Traps:
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    These classes look like theurges, requiring multiple casting sources, but don't advance both OR just advance them rather poorly. It is capable to make these traps into very good builds that are capable of getting 9's however it is very hard to accomplish...

    Geomancer: Requires both Arcane and Divine, but only advances one. If you are playing a Sha'ir then this becomes black
    True Necromancer: 12/14 Theruge. Very good if you never want 9's. Terrible. Circumstantially it is capable to make this Blue but that requires some series early entry shenanigans.
    Yathrinshee: 6/10 Theurge. Yeah lets skip this one. This one is NEVER good... I mean If i see a build that is capable of having this class and still get 9's then I'll change my mind but... doesn't seem to likely...


    Special Mention:
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    Dweomerkeeper: Like the Geomancer it requires both Arcane and Divine Casting, but only advances one. The only difference is that its class features allow it to apply spells to a thing called a mantle causing them to effectively function as Supernatural abilities. Cannot go wrong with this.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-12-26 at 04:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]


    Theurgist's Laboratory


    Builds/Resources:
    Gaze studiously upon your brethren, even though you are clearly superior you still have much to learn from them...

    This handbook is more or less a bare bones approach to Theurges so Its not going to include spells and other such shenanigans and if you failed to learn anything from this handbook I encourage approaching the guides presented below...

    Legend:
    Min/Max: M
    GiTP: G
    BG: BG

    Arcane Handbooks


    Divine Handbooks


    Builds:
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    True Necromancer Theurge:
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    Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

    Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
    Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

    Prerequisites:
    Rebuke Undead
    Death Domain
    Any non-good
    Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
    Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

    Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man...

    I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes!


    Illumian Dweomerkeeper
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    Illumian
    Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mystic Theurge +7/Dweomerkeeper +4
    Using the 9th level spells trick and alternative Source Spell. You cast as a level 19 Wizard, and level 11 wizard(Unless you're allowed to change caster progression part-way through, in which case Wizard 17 Cleric 13), but you still have 9th-level cleric spells.


    Wildshaping Bard
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    Bard 1/Druid 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
    Not as much fun, but Wildshape and double nines are nice. Probably more optimal ways of doing it, but eh.


    Wild Shaping Theurge
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    Bard 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10


    Wild Shaping Theurge [Improved]
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    Never actually crunched this one out, but seems pretty good:
    Bard 1/Druid 5/Arcane Heirophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Arcane Heirophant 6/FL+2

    Gives you 11th level Wildshaping, 18th level Druid casting, and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. Pretty good, overall.


    Three very elegant and very nice builds.:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren
    Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 will get you dual 9s, Cha-SAD.

    - Bard 7 gets you the +5 BAB and the martial weapon (rapier) needed for Abjurant Champion
    - AC 2 gets you to +7 BAB, which you need for DC
    - You qualify for Sublime Chord at 10, but you need another DC level to get into MT
    - MT 8 advances DC casting to 10 and SC casting to 9, resulting in dual 9s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextercovia
    Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9
    With the initiate of Milil gives you good Inspire Courage and such, and Southern Magician takes care of qualifications.

    Neraph
    Charisma Caster 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Divine Crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Abjurant Champion +2
    Using the Neraph's martial weapon proficiency to qualify for Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion, and uses Versatile Caster(Combined with a bloodline for something like Sorcerer) for early entry.


    Thanos, The Mad Tyrant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanos
    Fools taking up arms against omnipotence. They rush head-on into Armageddon. So I shall provide them with a most glorious doomsday! The heavens will run red with blood. But in the end, as always, THANOS will stand triumphant.
    We throw around terms like God and Schrodinger without actually having a full understanding of how to truly achieve the state of godhood... For that we are guilty of sin my friends...

    Human
    UA Conjurer/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9

    Prerequisites: Spell focus (Evil) & Iron Will

    Human: Iron Will
    1st: Extend Spell*
    3rd: Spell Focus (Evil)
    5th: Spontaneous Divination
    6th: Spell Mastery*
    9th: Uncanny Forethought*
    12th: Persistent Spell*
    15th: Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]*
    18th: Theurgist Specialist

    This is a little build that effectively puts the Wizard in his place, may of these feats are actually removable and adjustable as noted by the *asterisks* these feats are simply recommended.

    You are a little more then the Wizard (Clearly) You are in fact the legitimate Schrodinger's Wizard Advanced, Your spell slots without modifiers look like this:

    Arcane: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2
    Divine: 6/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1
    Total: 10/9/9/8/8/8/8/6/5/3

    You can spontaneously cast the right spell you need with Uncanny Forethought, You can Persistomancy it up. You possess the Strength of both and the Weaknesses of neither, you are the perfect blend of Arcane and Divine you are TRULY God in every single way shape and form.


    dextercorvia on destroying the action aconomy as a Divine/Arcane Theurge:
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    Quote Originally Posted by dextercorvia View Post
    Wizard2/Archivist1/MT10

    Begin as a Naenhoon IllumianRoD Wizard2. You'll want two flaws for Extend Spell, and Persistant Spell. Take Sanctum Spell for your level 1 feat, and swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat (Improved Initiative is fine). Take a level of Archivist at 3rd, and pick up Twin Spell. Now you can go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. At 6 you grab Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of EnlightenmentPlH for the DCLS Sun Domain. At 9 you pick up Arcane ThesisPHBII: Celerity. Somewhere before level 9 you should also be able to afford 2 scrolls each of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Shuffle away Scribe Scroll for Invisible Spell, and Improved Initiative for Easy MetamagicDrag325:Twin.

    You can now Persist Favor of the MartyrSpC in the morning using the Naenhoon ability and the Turn attempts from the Sun domain. (NightsticksLM and a Reliquary Holy SymbolCC will help if you need more turn attempts). This makes you immune to Daze. You can cast a Twinned Celerity from a fourth level slot by taking advantage of Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and the +0 metamagics Invisible and Sanctum Spell.

    This will give you two additional standard actions in exchange for an immediate action and a 4th level slot.

    At 12, double your fun by taking Repeat Spell. You can get 2 out of turn, and then 2 more on your next turn.

    I'll add sources later. Edit: I think that is all of the unclear ones. I forget exactly where Invisible Spell is. I think it is one of the hard to find Eberron books like SoS.


    Dirty/questionable tricks:
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    • Using the Cloistered Cleric lore-thingy to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist
    • Using Shape Souldmeld: Impulse Boots/Bind lesser Chakra to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist.
    • Using the 9th level spell trick for all the domain slots, and for prepping stuff like Dictum early, and being able to abandon cleric safely.
    • You actually don't need a level of Binder for Anima Mage. You take Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige and Anima Mage gives you levels by itself. Also, improved Binding gives you Zceryll.
    • Kobold Shenanigans for early entry.
    • Bamboo Spirit Folk using Trackless step to qualify for Arcane Hierophant
    • Legacy Champion continuation beyond class levels.
    • Tainted Scholar shenanigans using Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to increase the DC for spells to insane levels.

    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-08-21 at 12:20 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Have at thee playground *nervous tingle up spine*
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    If you could also make it less vitriolic and supporting playstyles other than absolute cheese, it would be amazing.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    If you could also make it less vitriolic and supporting playstyles other than absolute cheese, it would be amazing.
    Erm... I guess I could do that? I mean I tried to adjust the stuff that showed signs of pure... I wanna say... "pride" but not be rude about it... in a specific playstyle...

    EDIT: If you have anything you'd like to add to this then please, feel free to mention it.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 10:50 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    I like it. Very nice
    *Crosses Arms*

    Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.
    Quotes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
    Blood~

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Cool idea, some comments:

    -The section of caster combos check the wording, for example Wizard/Archivist: "Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats." What is that?

    -Precocious apprentice should be on the feat section, since it eases early entry. Southern magician (from Races of Faerun) should also be mentioned. Alternative source spell is from dragon magazine 325, that can be mentioned. Dragon magazine also contains other great feats (my favorite is theurgic bond)

    -If dragon magazines are on the table bard becomes great, there is green whisperer dragon magazine 311, it advances both druid casting and bard casting and it is a great complement for a sublime fochlucan lyrist.

    -White dragonspawn is not from 3rd party, dragon lance campaign setting is first party (the rest of the dragon lance material is not).

    -Animal companion ACF should be mentioned, it is useful for arcane hierophants, which do not require to have a familiar when entering into the class and benefits from more effective druid level for animal companion.

    -I would add Bamboo Spirit Folk to dirty tricks (not necessarily races) into Arcane Hierophant, depending on the DM the racial feature might be allowed to work as the class feature. Combined with the above ACF you can even be a wizard/archivist/mysthic theurge/arcane hierophant.

    -Certainly a slight discussion of every theurge class could be helpful, atm only the traps are mentioned. And Geomancer it's a great prc for Sha'ir.
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    I like it. Very nice
    *Crosses Arms*

    Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.
    Wizard/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9.

    The terrible thing is that Mystic Theurges aren't actually to hard to optimize because the only goal that you need to achieve is get 9's Its hard to do in Core of course but most DMs auto approve: Core, Expanded Core, Races of Destiny/Stone/Wild/Dragon, the Complete series and the campaign setting books if applicable. Its stuff like Dragon Magazine and stuff that is hard to convince your DM to allow since it is pretty much a knee jerk reaction to ban it however I'm sure that if you tell your DM that you're playing a Theurge they'll allow it since most of the Theurge stuff was actually printed in Dragon Magazine... Quite unfortunate

    Would have liked to see an all Theurge Sourcebook

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    Cool idea, some comments:

    -The section of caster combos check the wording, for example Wizard/Archivist: "Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats." What is that?
    some of the stuff was directly copied from the old thread and I added some details without noticing the errors. Please feel free to correct me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -Precocious apprentice should be on the feat section, since it eases early entry. Southern magician (from Races of Faerun) should also be mentioned. Alternative source spell is from dragon magazine 325, that can be mentioned. Dragon magazine also contains other great feats (my favorite is theurgic bond)
    It took me like 5 hours to do everything that you see in the handbook right now. I missed some things I'll get to adding that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -If dragon magazines are on the table bard becomes great, there is green whisperer dragon magazine 311, it advances both druid casting and bard casting and it is a great complement for a sublime fochlucan lyrist.
    I'll have to take a look at it myself but thanks for the heads up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -White dragonspawn is not from 3rd party, dragon lance campaign setting is first party (the rest of the dragon lance material is not).
    Somewhere deep down I knew that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -Animal companion ACF should be mentioned, it is useful for arcane hierophants, which do not require to have a familiar when entering into the class and benefits from more effective druid level for animal companion.
    Lets face it, the stuff you can do with Arcane Hierophant effectively deserves its own section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -I would add Bamboo Spirit Folk to dirty tricks (not necessarily races) into Arcane Hierophant, depending on the DM the racial feature might be allowed to work as the class feature. Combined with the above ACF you can even be a wizard/archivist/mysthic theurge/arcane hierophant.
    Alright, thanks again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    -Certainly a slight discussion of every theurge class could be helpful, atm only the traps are mentioned.
    This is true but again, I pretty much copy-pasta'd it and adjusted the lay out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeryr View Post
    And Geomancer it's a great prc for Sha'ir.
    Very true. Again stayed up all night working on this, copypasta'd mentally exhausted I'll get to it thought, thanks.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Alternative Spell Source: This feat is what separates the True God from the "I Wanna be the guy" (Straight Wizard). You are going to take this feat, I don't care if your DM isn't allowing Dragon magazine. YOU'RE TAKING THIS FEAT. This feat allows you to prepare Arcane Spells as Divine spells and vice-versa, however this comes at a cost... Your altered spell is weakened by 1 caster level (-1 CL) so it is effectively weaker... I'm sure THAT is balancing enough to convince any DM to allow this feat...
    I seriously doubt any DM in a not high powered campaign would let this fly. Especially if they already said no to dragon magazine.
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    I seriously doubt any DM in a not high powered campaign would let this fly. Especially if they already said no to dragon magazine.
    If i put that in blue text people would have assumed I'm downgrading its rating, I meant that comment as sarcasm I wanted to stress how AMAZING that feat is

    EDIT: Oh nevermind you were joking as well
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    No, I wan't joking. On the internet, if you don't clearly mark sarcasm, people WILL interpret it as serious (given the attitude from the previous guide, it would not be a stretch to assume you were being serious).
    Last edited by The Underlord; 2012-06-21 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    No, I wan't joking. On the internet, if you don't clearly mark sarcasm, people WILL interpret it as serious (given the attitude from the previous guide, it would not be a stretch to assume you were being serious).
    I see, well I suppose I should make a section in the legend dictating where I'm being sarcastic

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    I recommend you read up on Psionics, because they make excellent theurges. A Psion/Wizard can rock Psiotheurgist (Dragon Mag) to stack ML (which is huge for psionics since it means you can augment extra, and the wizard side will find it helpful if you have uncapped blast spells lying around), and Ardents make great theurges with pretty much anything since they can take a significant amount of lost levels and still get 9th level powers easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.


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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I recommend you read up on Psionics, because they make excellent theurges. A Psion/Wizard can rock Psiotheurgist (Dragon Mag) to stack ML (which is huge for psionics since it means you can augment extra, and the wizard side will find it helpful if you have uncapped blast spells lying around), and Ardents make great theurges with pretty much anything since they can take a significant amount of lost levels and still get 9th level powers easily.
    Perhaps I should correct myself: I am familiar enough with Psionics enough to allow them in my games, I am familiar enough with Psionics to even play a Psionic character, I am not however familiar enough to make a Theurgist build with Psionics included. But so far I can imagine Erudite EASILY being Gold from what I hear about it.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Erudite's main advantage (using the StP variant to learn spells as powers) is pointless if you're theurging. Since you also have another class to fall back on for versatility, Erudite's other schtick is also rendered pointless. Psion is better for theurging in every way.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.


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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Erudite's main advantage (using the StP variant to learn spells as powers) is pointless if you're theurging. Since you also have another class to fall back on for versatility, Erudite's other schtick is also rendered pointless. Psion is better for theurging in every way.
    I see, since most some people view Psions with different disciplines as different classes what would you recommend? I personally view Telepath is the best, but I've have heard Shaper as is Egotist, but which is best? I understand that Telepath has the whole "Mind effecting" descriptor which is easily countered by sheer easily acquired immunity. But I degrees, which do you believe is superior?
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Shaper is not very useful since you can pick up Astral Construct with a feat, and that's its best power. Since Theurges love action economy, I would recommend Telepath for Schism (which is more difficult to pick up with Expanded Knowledge due to being higher level).
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
    Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.


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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Shaper is not very useful since you can pick up Astral Construct with a feat, and that's its best power. Since Theurges love action economy, I would recommend Telepath for Schism (which is more difficult to pick up with Expanded Knowledge due to being higher level).
    Alright, thanks. Anything else I should know before I jump in and start a Psionic section?

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.
    Anything can be optiminmaxed. To what degree will vary on the player and its still a very capable class (like the rest of 3.5) without any alteration.
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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Regular Cerebremancers are just fine as well. Even if the Psion side doesn't hit 9ths, you still get access to great buffs like Synchronicity, Schism and Hustle that can assist the wizard side, plus Int synergy. And of course, you can very quickly pump your Psion side up via Mental Pinnacle if needed. You can even fire off Mental Pinnacle, and use all your free power points to bake a ton of Soul Crystals for you and your party.

    Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +4 is perfectly viable, and has much more synergy than say Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10. (Or you can use Erudite - even transferring some of your wizard spells to your psionic side to eliminate the need for material components.)

    Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +6 works great too, and keeps you from being 3 levels behind on both sides.
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Regular Cerebremancers are just fine as well. Even if the Psion side doesn't hit 9ths, you still get access to great buffs like Synchronicity, Schism and Hustle that can assist the wizard side, plus Int synergy. And of course, you can very quickly pump your Psion side up via Mental Pinnacle if needed. You can even fire off Mental Pinnacle, and use all your free power points to bake a ton of Soul Crystals for you and your party.

    Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +4 is perfectly viable, and has much more synergy than say Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10. (Or you can use Erudite - even transferring some of your wizard spells to your psionic side to eliminate the need for material components.)

    Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +6 works great too, and keeps you from being 3 levels behind on both sides.
    ...I'm legitimately tempted to actually place that in the handbook as a note towards the Psionics section. Would you mind?

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    ...I'm legitimately tempted to actually place that in the handbook as a note towards the Psionics section. Would you mind?
    Not at all!

    Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Not at all!

    Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.
    That thread actually gave me the resolve to actually resurrect this Handbook in the making, but i must admit that I'm still unfamiliar with the class, from the looks of the outline the Class is pretty easy to understand and with its style of spellcasting it can easily become a Fast Progression Class with Mystic Theurge applied to it. Very scary if you ask me... I mean you can theoretically have 9's by level 13...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Not at all!

    Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.
    I've wondered, with sha'ir entering theurges, do you just advance sha'ir two levels per level or something?

    because if so, uh, fochlucan lyrist sounds fun.
    if you do have to refer to me by name, I do prefer it lowercase. or "res" works.

    if you do have to use a pronoun for me, I do prefer "it."

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    The high end of the color code is really hard to read.

    Ardent seriously needs a mention - it's Wis-friendly, learns powers based on its ML and provides some of the higher-powered abilities that other Wis-based casters usually lack (action economy breakage is the big one, mind control and teleportation to a lesser extent). It's also the closest thing psionics has to a fast progression class (a Cleric 9/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge 10 with Practiced Manifester can learn up to level 8 powers. Add ML boosts, and you can hit level 9 powers without too much of a hassle)

    And if Theurgic specialist is getting a shout-out, Psiotheurgist from dragon magazine #349 is similar for a caster/psion, but much more usable/powerful:
    It doesn't require 3 levels of specialist wizard; just a Spell Focus feat.
    Increasing ML has more powerful effects than cranking CL on a caster - instead of increasing a power's numeric effects, augments change other elements of powers like casting time

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    I've wondered, with sha'ir entering theurges, do you just advance sha'ir two levels per level or something?

    because if so, uh, fochlucan lyrist sounds fun.
    As a TO-exercise I don't see anything stopping it. Throughout the Sha'ir's description, they are described as casting both arcane spells and divine spells, thus they are both an arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class. Obviously though, a DM would be unlikely to stand for cheese of this level outside the most high-powered campaigns.

    The only other base class I can think of with truly hybrid casting like this is the Savant, and since their spellcasting ability is so weak this wouldn't be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    The high end of the color code is really hard to read.
    What color do you recommend I use?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Ardent seriously needs a mention - it's Wis-friendly, learns powers based on its ML and provides some of the higher-powered abilities that other Wis-based casters usually lack (action economy breakage is the big one, mind control and teleportation to a lesser extent). It's also the closest thing psionics has to a fast progression class (a Cleric 9/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge 10 with Practiced Manifester can learn up to level 8 powers. Add ML boosts, and you can hit level 9 powers without too much of a hassle)
    I'm unfamiliar withe the Ardent as a whole. Explain to me how Ardents manage to achieve that much power in such a short span of time and I don't think Practiced Manifester works the way you're thinking. I'm unfamiliar with the feat (as it is Psionics), but I believe it functions as Practiced Spellcaster works... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    And if Theurgic specialist is getting a shout-out, Psiotheurgist from dragon magazine #349 is similar for a caster/psion, but much more usable/powerful:
    It doesn't require 3 levels of specialist wizard; just a Spell Focus feat.
    Increasing ML has more powerful effects than cranking CL on a caster - instead of increasing a power's numeric effects, augments change other elements of powers like casting time
    So true, Alright, I can see no reason to NOT include that feat, I am starting to understand how Cerebremancers work... Is there a feat that allows a Manifester/Caster use Metapsionics and Metamagics together.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-21 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition]

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    I'm unfamiliar withe the Ardent as a whole. Explain to me how Ardents manage to achieve that much power in such a short span of time and I don't think Practiced Manifester works the way you're thinking. I'm unfamiliar with the feat (as it is Psionics), but I believe it functions as Practiced Spellcaster works... right?
    It does. But that affects the Ardent differently from other manifesters.

    Every time the Ardent gains a level, it can learn any power that it is capable of manifesting (where the Base PP cost is less than or equal to the Ardent's manifester level). Practiced Manifester, by raising the Ardent's manifester level, raises the maximum level of power that the Ardent can learn.

    This can get a bit tricky because Ardents have very restrictive lists of powers available (think a Cleric, if it could only learn spells from its domains, and its domains didn't always have a spell for every level), but it makes them the most multiclass-friendly of the manifesters.

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