Homebrew Campaign Rule

[Rattslinger]

In the campaign world I am creating, there is not a deity of magic. As such I have decided that everyone gets SR 5 plus class level. If anyone had a better suggestion I am up for constructive criticism.

[Mando Knight]

In the campaign world I am creating, there is not a deity of magic. As such I have decided that everyone gets SR 5 plus class level. If anyone had a better suggestion I am up for constructive criticism.

...Non sequitur?

Also, SR is a two-edged sword: characters who optimize to beat it will, and those who don't will have trouble casting helpful spells on their allies.

[Grod_The_Giant]

On the other hand, 5+level will be beaten 75% of the time by an equal-leveled caster who's made NO effort to optimize. I suspect that it will be an annoying extra roll more than anything else.

[Tanuki Tales]

...Non sequitur?

Also, SR is a two-edged sword: characters who optimize to beat it will, and those who don't will have trouble casting helpful spells on their allies.

A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

And that's a double-edged sword how?

[Grod_The_Giant]

And that's a double-edged sword how?

Any time you need to cast a spell on an ally during combat, you either waste an action (and drop an otherwise-important defense for a turn) or run the risk of wasting spells.

[Tanuki Tales]

Any time you need to cast a spell on an ally during combat, you either waste an action (and drop an otherwise-important defense for a turn) or run the risk of wasting spells.

The question becomes then either:

A. Why are you applying buffs during combat instead of before hand.

or

B. Why are you trying to do in-combat healing/removing of debuffing? That's generally an out of combat thing.


I mean, yeah, if the guy gets dropped and that Close Wounds you had prepared would have saved him but you couldn't beat his SR to help him, then I guess I could see it being a double-edged sword. Otherwise it's more of an opportunity cost.

[Rattslinger]

Per the setting it is harder to cast spells that help yourself and your allies. And is equally as hard to cast spells against enemies, etc. Originally I had SR 10 plus character level, people thought that was too harsh.

Also, as there is no God of Healing, I've also reduced all healing spell dice to the lesser level of dice "ie 3d6 becomes 3d4."

If a being is brought back through a successful, resurrection, reincarnation, etc., their SR goes up by 5 automatically.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The question becomes then either:

A. Why are you applying buffs during combat instead of before hand.

or

B. Why are you trying to do in-combat healing/removing of debuffing? That's generally an out of combat thing.

When the unexpected happens. If you get hit by a crippling debuff, or when a character is nearly dead and the enemies or not. It comes up plenty in every group that I've played with, internet theory or not.

[Tanuki Tales]

When the unexpected happens. If you get hit by a crippling debuff, or when a character is nearly dead and the enemies or not. It comes up plenty in every group that I've played with, internet theory or not.

That's not SR being a double-edged sword. That's the DM purposely turning it into one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's not SR being a double-edged sword. That's the DM purposely turning it into one.

... how do you figure that? Am I (as the DM) supposed to make it so easy for the players that they never need to adapt on the fly? Always give them as much time as they want to layer buffs on? Include enemies that do so little damage no healing is necessary? No challenge? No surprise?

Getting back to the original point, I'm not quite sure what your purpose here is, Rattslinger. A general weakening of magic? If we knew what your goal was, we'd be better able to help.

[Tanuki Tales]

... how do you figure that? Am I (as the DM) supposed to make it so easy for the players that they never need to adapt on the fly? Always give them as much time as they want to layer buffs on? Include enemies that do so little damage no healing is necessary? No challenge? No surprise?

When you're constantly throwing encounters that you know have crippling debuffs that need to be taken care of right then in combat or the group wipes? And you know that several of your party has spell resistance and thus could make this even more of a wipe?

Yeah, sounds like the DM forcing it to be a double-edge sword.

Also, not all encounters and challenges are combat oriented.

[Tyndmyr]

In the campaign world I am creating, there is not a deity of magic. As such I have decided that everyone gets SR 5 plus class level. If anyone had a better suggestion I am up for constructive criticism.

In short, I'm not sure how one gets you the other. How does a lower-able defense against magic come from a lack of a deity of magic?

How does it work for monsters?

SR 5 + level is...going to be beaten automatically by anyone who's seriously playing a primary caster. Taking straight levels in wizard and no optimization means you beat it for an equally leveled opponent on a 5+, or, 80% of the time. If they have LA, even easier. If you have ANY cl boosters, which frankly, tend to come fairly easily, you end up beating the SR without even trying. It ends up mostly hurting weaker, but normally aright classes.

For instance, a ranger of level 4+ has a CL of only half his ranger level. SR ruins his day. Half casters hate SR, and are typically lower powered than primary casters. Likewise, melee chars are most likely to have LA and/or RHD, and thus, gain least from the SR. So, from a balance perspective, it worsens imbalance.

It makes emergency healing a lot rougher in particular. Either the tank always stays vulnerable to magic...and thus, tanks poorly relative to others, or emergency healing might just be wasted. Debuffs in combat need not always be handled immediately, but it's not unusual for someone to get unlucky and need some healing.

[Mando Knight]

Also, as there is no God of Healing, I've also reduced all healing spell dice to the lesser level of dice "ie 3d6 becomes 3d4."

Lack of a deity for a specific aspect usually means very little. Deities are usually depicted as presiding over their portfolios, not actually being the cause of them. Clerics don't pray to healing gods for their Cure spells, they pray to their own patron.

[Rattslinger]

... how do you figure that? Am I (as the DM) supposed to make it so easy for the players that they never need to adapt on the fly? Always give them as much time as they want to layer buffs on? Include enemies that do so little damage no healing is necessary? No challenge? No surprise?

Getting back to the original point, I'm not quite sure what your purpose here is, Rattslinger. A general weakening of magic? If we knew what your goal was, we'd be better able to help.

Sorry for the late reply folks, I have been dealing with a death in the family and assorted work issues. I am trying to weaken magic/psionics in my game world because I believe they are far over powered. Without having to go through and tweak every single spell, power, etc., I want a way to keep magic to an acceptable level per my opinion.

As for my Deities their power works in a pantheon. Even though you may be praying to the "War God" for healing and resurrection magic, it was the "Healing God", that was granting those spells. With the healing god dead, the other Gods have to now provide those type of spells that they were not "created" to do, while they can do it, they can't do it as well as the dead deity could. Which is why healing does less and magic does less because the raw "stuff" that arcane, divine and psionic powers, etc are made up of, are being handled by gods that barely know how to do these things.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry for the late reply folks, I have been dealing with a death in the family and assorted work issues. I am trying to weaken magic/psionics in my game world because I believe they are far over powered. Without having to go through and tweak every single spell, power, etc., I want a way to keep magic to an acceptable level per my opinion.

As for my Deities their power works in a pantheon. Even though you may be praying to the "War God" for healing and resurrection magic, it was the "Healing God", that was granting those spells. With the healing god dead, the other Gods have to now provide those type of spells that they were not "created" to do, while they can do it, they can't do it as well as the dead deity could. Which is why healing does less and magic does less because the raw "stuff" that arcane, divine and psionic powers, etc are made up of, are being handled by gods that barely know how to do these things.

No worries. Hope your RL stuff works/has worked out alright.

Anyway, that's an interesting concept. Hmm... how best to implement it...

My first thought is that a roll-for-DC thing might be interesting. After all, if the magic is being governed by those who aren't used to it, things will probably be a heck of a lot less reliable. It probably balances out about the same, but it seems to fit the flavor.

As for a general nerf... give slower casting progressions? Lists that only go up to, say, 7th level spells at level 18-ish? Or maybe a flat failure chance when casting? Maybe at 5% per spell level? Or else look at people's general magic fixes.

[Rainbownaga]

Calculating spell resistance can be a hassle, and there are many spells that can sidestep it all together (especially if you can willingly "drop" spell resistance as implied from the earlier posts).

How about some ideas...

Only Divine Magic: If magic is too powerful then your players clearly have some optimization skills and having to play "without a wizard" could be a challenge. Also ban DMM.

Unreliable Magic: Give a flat % chance that spells will fizzle. (E.g. Every time a spell is cast, roll a d4; if the result is a one the spell fails.) Casters are still brokenly overpowered, but they can't be certain their spells will always work. Additionally you can rule that the same spell cannot be recast for a length of time (an hour? a day?) forcing the caster to try a different, possibly suboptimal strategy.

Ensure that there are plenty of NPCs with the same issue so it doesn't seem like a PC nerf (which it is).

[Dragonlord]

Hi everyone I have been brewing an idea in my head the last week or so for a D&D meets trading cord game......... so i thought i would post some of the mechanics I've put together for the core of the game.

The general idea
players are the hero's/villains summoner classes. (taking from magic the gathering) the hero can summon alleys, artifacts or cast spells. Don't know if im going to use levels in this game yet. Mana point will be used to cast summon and spell. Thinking about using artifacts as port of the reword system; that and legendary alleys.

Recharge system i have in mind for hero's summoning and spells.

Spoiler

Show

Recharge system:
Tier 1: 1d6 (4, 5, 6 to recharge power)
Tier 2: 1d6 (10, 11, 12 to recharge power)
Tier 3: 1d6 (15, 16, 17 to recharge power)

How recharging works at the start of your turn roll 3d6 on one die of 4, 5 or 6 recharges one tier 1 power of players chose, then add two die together and if you get 10, 11 or 12 recharge one tier 2 power of players chose, finally add all three die together if player gets 15, 16 or 17 recharge one tier 3 power of player chose. If player rolls 6 on all three die it’s a burst charge and recharges one power of all three tiers.
Burst charge roll an 18 with 3d6 and gain a power of each tier.

Tier 1: Minion alleys.
Tier 2: standard alleys.
Tier 3: elite alleys.
legendary alleys have no recharge.

HELP!!! Don't know how to create a thread for this. i would like to go in to more detail...

[Rattslinger]

Unreliable Magic: Give a flat % chance that spells will fizzle. (E.g. Every time a spell is cast, roll a d4; if the result is a one the spell fails.) Casters are still brokenly overpowered, but they can't be certain their spells will always work. Additionally you can rule that the same spell cannot be recast for a length of time (an hour? a day?) forcing the caster to try a different, possibly suboptimal strategy.

Ensure that there are plenty of NPCs with the same issue so it doesn't seem like a PC nerf (which it is).

My friends thought banning divine metamagic was a good idea. But they thought that the possibility of a spell failing would not be fun, that no player they knew in all their years of gaming would want to play in that kind of campaign. They do not believe that 3.5 magic is overpowered unless a player optimizes. I don't know how to get them to understand the point of the thing is that 3.5 magic is way to easy to abuse, even accidentally.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Hi everyone I have been brewing an idea in my head the last week or so for a D&D meets trading cord game......... so i thought i would post some of the mechanics I've put together for the core of the game.

The general idea
players are the hero's/villains summoner classes. (taking from magic the gathering) the hero can summon alleys, artifacts or cast spells. Don't know if im going to use levels in this game yet. Mana point will be used to cast summon and spell. Thinking about using artifacts as port of the reword system; that and legendary alleys.

Recharge system i have in mind for hero's summoning and spells.

HELP!!! Don't know how to create a thread for this. i would like to go in to more detail...

I recommend you start your own thread for that.

My friends thought banning divine metamagic was a good idea. But they thought that the possibility of a spell failing would not be fun, that no player they knew in all their years of gaming would want to play in that kind of campaign. They do not believe that 3.5 magic is overpowered unless a player optimizes. I don't know how to get them to understand the point of the thing is that 3.5 magic is way to easy to abuse, even accidentally.

I agree that in 3.5 D&D magic is an unbalancing factor, both at mid and high levels. This is especially visible for the "tier one" classes. I believe that giving everyone magic resistance does not solve the main problem, which is that tier one classes allow one character to excel at many things and contribute to every situation the party finds themselves in. Your proposed fix is extremely harsh for spellcasters because they are already limited by uses per day, it's simply not fun to tell a player that the one thing they get to do this round will fail 25% of the time.

In my opinion, the best approach to is to ban the wizard, cleric, and druid. Sorcerers are well-balanced because they don't get to use spellbooks, so anybody who wanted to play a wizard can play a sorcerer instead (and take the Scribe Scroll feat and put ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) if they want to play up the "book mage" aspect of that character). The cleric and druid can be covered by the favored soul, which is basically a spontaneous cleric (see the Pathfinder equivalent).

You have also mentioned that you want there to be thematic aspect of magic in your campaign to make magic be "difficult". There are a lot of ways to do that. For example, you could make it so that all magic items (including potions) have odd drawbacks and side-effects. Another option would be to make all permanent magic items require some form of recharging from time to time (like in the Elder Scrolls series). If you want to go into "magic is opposed to life" territory, you could include taint or sanity.

[Rattslinger]

I recommend you start your own thread for that.



I agree that in 3.5 D&D magic is an unbalancing factor, both at mid and high levels. This is especially visible for the "tier one" classes. I believe that giving everyone magic resistance does not solve the main problem, which is that tier one classes allow one character to excel at many things and contribute to every situation the party finds themselves in. Your proposed fix is extremely harsh for spellcasters because they are already limited by uses per day, it's simply not fun to tell a player that the one thing they get to do this round will fail 25% of the time.

In my opinion, the best approach to is to ban the wizard, cleric, and druid. Sorcerers are well-balanced because they don't get to use spellbooks, so anybody who wanted to play a wizard can play a sorcerer instead (and take the Scribe Scroll feat and put ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) if they want to play up the "book mage" aspect of that character). The cleric and druid can be covered by the favored soul, which is basically a spontaneous cleric (see the Pathfinder equivalent).

You have also mentioned that you want there to be thematic aspect of magic in your campaign to make magic be "difficult". There are a lot of ways to do that. For example, you could make it so that all magic items (including potions) have odd drawbacks and side-effects. Another option would be to make all permanent magic items require some form of recharging from time to time (like in the Elder Scrolls series). If you want to go into "magic is opposed to life" territory, you could include taint or sanity.

Amazingly enough in the campaign world there are no wizards, only the spontaneous arcane casting classes are allowed.

The basic idea is that there are two pantheons of immortals, one calling themselves Gods, the other calling themselves Titans, the Gods and Titans of Magic and Healing are all dead.

My friends believe that the optimization builds on most websites are weak, and that even more optimization can be achieved using only WotC, and SR sources.

They flat out told me today that they wouldn't play in a world where magic is even slightly weakened as it is no fun to the players to do that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They flat out told me today that they wouldn't play in a world where magic is even slightly weakened as it is no fun to the players to do that.

If your friends don't want to play in a world with weakened magic, then don't weaken magic. Some odd drawbacks are fine, sure, but your players should have just as much input into the nature of the campaign as you, if not more. As long as everyone plays reasonably high-tier classes, you should be fine with unnerfed magic and a gentleman's agreement not to break the game.

[Rattslinger]

After speaking with my players they refuse to play in a game where 3.5 magic/psionics are nerfed in any way, shape or form. They believe that non-magic using classes are more powerful than magic classes, that they do more damage and are actually overpowered per 3.5.

[Frog Dragon]

"More damage" is actually accurate from an optimization perspective. Chargers, hurlers and so on do lay on damage much harder than casters (though if your metrics for damage are uberchargers and mailman, you might as well replace the numbers with "enough". They have a funny tendency to one-shot).

That said, if your group thinks that, you probably won't get anything really optimized from them. Thus, no need for houserules, really.